Marth Matchup Guide v0.4 (Last Update: 09/21/11)

[Archangel]

Marth dittos are like my favorite match up in the game

I cant resist

<3 Dair baby...Overlord knows whats up!

I like zelda marth

matchup is 70-30

not too bad

i just play like peach

reason why its not 60-40 like marth peach

is cause i cant grab you and throw veggies at ya

ya dig?

I agree. I'm not sure Marth vs Peach is 60-40(except yoshi's story). Battlefield seems even FD slight marth, FoD*shrugs*, DL65 80-20 peach.(Yes I am mad bro.)

 

[EPsilon933]

Martheach = 60:40

Peach can't get past his sword easily. She's slow

 

[Archangel]

Martheach = 60:40

Peach can't get past his sword easily. She's slow

her run speed is slow as balls, her Dash attack is fast. She can toss fruits and veggies at you that extend much farther than your sword. Saying Peach vs Marth is 60-40 is like saying Puff vs Marth is 70-30. Once upon a time bother were true but It's 2011...soon to be 2012. either your living in the past or your playing some puff/peaches that aren't good or don't know how to play vs Marth.

with that said I think Marth vs peach is closer to 55-45 Marth than 50-50 or 60-40.

 

[strawhats]

well to put it in the words of a friend and young link player. "all young link has is projectiles. As long as you have room to pull bombs and camp you can play the match up, but once Marth gets past that the range difference is just to great".

I believe alot of times frustration causes Marth's to have trouble with characters like young link or doc. Typically your so angry about the cheap shots that when you get in you want to deliver maximum hurt to the camper. So you go for a Fsmash....and miss. Providing a chance for punishment or possibly death. I've found Fsmash is quickly becoming my least favorite move as a marth player. Unless I'm just ****ing around I almost never use it unless it's a sure thing or I feel I can get away with it. Young Link is a bad child that requires discipline. Slash him with your sword a few times and he'll learn his place.

This!! Over 9000x This!!!I also think a well spaced neutral b keeps YL honest.

 

[Archangel]

This!! Over 9000x This!!!I also think a well spaced neutral b keeps YL honest.

I love Neut B

 

[OverLord]

Marth-Peach is 60-40. The fact Armada plays this MU better than everyone does not mean that Peach goes even, Marth has a clear advantage IMO.


And before you say "play good peaches blabla"

I played MacD and Cort at Rom3 and Armada in pools at Beast, and I did fairly good against him.

 

[the_CAM_factor]

only throw an fsmash if its gonna hit. if you are having problems with his shield try some d-tilts those usually poke after a few hits

 

[Archangel]

Marth-Peach is 60-40. The fact Armada plays this MU better than everyone does not mean that Peach goes even, Marth has a clear advantage IMO.


And before you say "play good peaches blabla"

I played MacD and Cort at Rom3 and Armada in pools at Beast, and I did fairly good against him.

define fairly good. Also MacD has only lost to 1 marth this year being taj if i'm not mistaken. Cort is in and out of retirement. Armada hasn't lost a single match to a Marth in.....2 years now. Armada provided a blueprint more or less. Anyone who puts in the same amount of work can have the same amount of success. I don't accept the special player philosophy because it's stupid.

"What one man can do another man can do" ~Anthony Hopkins

 

[EPsilon933]

People aren't equally skilled/talented

 

[Archangel]

People aren't equally skilled/talented

While that is true there are 7 billion people on this planet. If your theory holds true how do you explain the current state of melee compare to half a decade ago? even farther at times. Anytime someone shows something that can be done it's met with instant denial.

"Puff can't ____ it's only King is a good player"
"Link can't ____ just Germ is a talented player"
"Marth can't ____ Just Ken is the greatest"
"Luigi can't ____ Just Ka-Master is too good"
"Captain Falcon can't ____ just Isai is god"
"Sheik can't ____ Just KDJ is a monster"
"Ganon can't ____ Tipman/Chad are just very good"
"Samus can't ____ only Wes/Hugs know how to use"
"Fox can't ____ Just M2K is a robot"
"Falco can't ____ only PC should be president"

Historically all of these ____'s have been proven incorrect. Soon "Pikachu can't ____ Just Axe has his effect", and "Peach can't ____ only Armada can do it" will be added to this list.

 

[OverLord]

I got 2-stocked high percent against Armada twice on FD, 4-5 minutes per match.

That's fairly good for me against the best in the world in his probably best MU.


Anyway, no, you're mistaken on the fact that I'm saying that only Armada can play that good against Marth. Playing good a MU doesn't change the flaws your character has and doesn't change objective evidences.

If Armada can beat every Marth on the planet right now is because he is a better player overall than his opponents, so he can outplay them fairly well 'cause Marth ain't got a huge advantage against Peach.

Given this fact, you can not deny that Marth can outspace and counter most of Peach's moveset. You just have to watch out for dash attacks, and turnips aren't really that much of a problem if you know how to deal against them. Space your moves well, be patient and keep your eye on good moments to get in (ex: when Peach is taking a turnip she's really vulnerable, you can DTilt or Dash Attack her).
Fair her turnip>Fair approaches and bait some sidesteps to get a grab. The rest is just keeping her in the air and edgeguard.

60-40 IMO. She can have a really bad time against a good Marth.

 

[Archangel]

I got 2-stocked high percent against Armada twice on FD, 4-5 minutes per match.

That's fairly good for me against the best in the world in his probably best MU.


Anyway, no, you're mistaken on the fact that I'm saying that only Armada can play that good against Marth. Playing good a MU doesn't change the flaws your character has and doesn't change objective evidences.

If Armada can beat every Marth on the planet right now is because he is a better player overall than his opponents, so he can outplay them fairly well 'cause Marth ain't got a huge advantage against Peach.

Given this fact, you can not deny that Marth can outspace and counter most of Peach's moveset. You just have to watch out for dash attacks, and turnips aren't really that much of a problem if you know how to deal against them. Space your moves well, be patient and keep your eye on good moments to get in (ex: when Peach is taking a turnip she's really vulnerable, you can DTilt or Dash Attack her).
Fair her turnip>Fair approaches and bait some sidesteps to get a grab. The rest is just keeping her in the air and edgeguard.

60-40 IMO. She can have a really bad time against a good Marth.

I get what you are saying but if you believe what you said then you also agree with me

What I'm saying is there is evidence that Armada can take credit for exposing in Marth's general design. Spacing is a big influence in the MU. Despite having a reach advantage and speed advantage Marth has one area where he is better and that is at perfect tip range for all his moves. Peach is fine all the way outside of him or inside the sword range. In the air it is pretty much the same story but Peach can force trades in all situations unless they are at bair tipper range or getting tipper Uair'd. If a good peach player must take a hit they will trade with Marth and 9/10 times get the better of it. OOS game is what seperates Armada from the rest of the top peaches right now. Tossing turnips from a distance and forcing him in range you can shield safely and OOS grab or hit Marth faster than can do anything about. This fundamental flaw is why Peach has a better chance of winning then meets the eye.

With that said...Marth's best range is alot more rewarding if you play perfectly you'll kill the ***** easy where as it is a bit more complicated for peach. Stitch-faces, Ba-bombs are an X factor never considered because it is luck based. Often in a close set in fact the X factor has really helped(Genesis 1 M2K vs Armada comes to mind). Still Peach tossing turnips from a distance is better than having nothing at all(which is what Marth has). Inside Peaches Nair, Bair, and Dsmash brutalize Marth inside and you really got nothing inside except Down-B(very underused in this case). It can stop everything if timed right but it can also be baited so it's a double edged sword. Dashing to safety might be your best option if the chance presents itself (if you get in close too many times you will not win the match).

Overall 55-45 Marth overall seems to be the closest to truth.

 

[EPsilon933]

There's a distance where Marth is outside Peach's reach and close enough to punish turnip pulls. Turnip problem solved

 

[Archangel]

There's a distance where Marth is outside Peach's reach and close enough to punish turnip pulls. Turnip problem solved

requires much skill to stay in that distance, Requires skill to keep the fight in that distance for 3 games against a peach, and It requires a lack of skill or ability to adjust on the part of the peach player to stay in that distance.

With that said such a distance does exist giving Marth an edge that can't be overlooked. Still it's only about as far a edge as the one that Sheik has over Captain Falcon. In fact I'd say it's about the exact same.

 

[BRLNK88]

Players like Mango and Armada shouldn't factor into a MU debate, their skill level is too high.
Mango could probably beat a lot of high level Foxes with Link, Armada could probably beat a lot of high level Marths with Young Link.
It's the same as saying Link shouldn't be bottom tier in Smash 64 because of how Isai uses him.

 

[Archangel]

Players like Mango and Armada shouldn't factor into a MU debate, their skill level is too high.
Mango could probably beat a lot of high level Foxes with Link, Armada could probably beat a lot of high level Marths with Young Link.
It's the same as saying Link shouldn't be bottom tier in Smash 64 because of how Isai uses him.

Link vs Fox is only terrible depending on if the stage is really big or not. I think HDL's link is better than mango's and he beat some decent fox mains but lost to really good ones. Same would happen to Mango. Armada's young link would get crushed by high level Marths beat by alot of pretty good ones too.

 

[EPsilon933]

Are stages that big of a factor in matchups?

 

[the_CAM_factor]

foxs waveshine makes link cry very hard, so on stages that let him do it easily and longer as well as comboing into other moves he absolutely gets a big advantage

 

[Archangel]

foxs waveshine makes link cry very hard, so on stages that let him do it easily and longer as well as comboing into other moves he absolutely gets a big advantage

^ absolutely this

Stages sometimes mean the difference between winning and losing. If you don't know the impact stages have on Match-ups yet then you need to get out more I think.

 

[BRLNK88]

Link vs Fox is only terrible depending on if the stage is really big or not. I think HDL's link is better than mango's and he beat some decent fox mains but lost to really good ones. Same would happen to Mango. Armada's young link would get crushed by high level Marths beat by alot of pretty good ones too.

HDL's Link prolly is better than Mango's so you're right there, but Armada has abilities to camp and space like none other. He could prolly outspace and spam enough crap against a very good Marth to get an opening and wreck ****. Granted, I've never seen his YL play against anyone except Hbox, which is a doable MU for YL to begin with.

foxs waveshine makes link cry very hard, so on stages that let him do it easily and longer as well as comboing into other moves he absolutely gets a big advantage

I absolutely agree. Link's one positive, his weight, works horribly against him here. It allows Fox to combo the living **** out of him, and his tiny wavedash means all Fox has to do is waveshine him to a high enough percent and upsmash. Usmash will also pretty reliably kill Link around 100%, while Link really has to work to kill Fox (or even hit Fox) unless its a gimp. Even if he grabs Fox, he can't really combo out of uthrow until 50 or 60%, he can't chaingrab, and dthrow to upB doesn't work until very high percentages.

 

[Archangel]

HDL's Link prolly is better than Mango's so you're right there, but Armada has abilities to camp and space like none other. He could prolly outspace and spam enough crap against a very good Marth to get an opening and wreck ****. Granted, I've never seen his YL play against anyone except Hbox, which is a doable MU for YL to begin with.

Camp like none other? you've never seen pink Shinobi play . In all seriousness though young link vs Puff is doable if you camp puff your aerial mobility and ground speed advantage really is the reason why you can do the MU. You don't have a speed advantage on the ground against Marth that is and in the air he can cover everywhere with his sword so it is a different ballgame entirely. I've played vs Young link alot and I can tell you it's fairly easy even against Armada I'm quite sure I'd win actually. It's not a great MU for young link at all.

 

[BRLNK88]

Camp like none other? you've never seen pink Shinobi play . In all seriousness though young link vs Puff is doable if you camp puff your aerial mobility and ground speed advantage really is the reason why you can do the MU. You don't have a speed advantage on the ground against Marth that is and in the air he can cover everywhere with his sword so it is a different ballgame entirely. I've played vs Young link alot and I can tell you it's fairly easy even against Armada I'm quite sure I'd win actually. It's not a great MU for young link at all.

I actually have seen him play, his set against Germ.
Germ had him beat straight up so he started camping like crazy, it was total BS.

 

[Archangel]

I actually have seen him play, his set against Germ.
Germ had him beat straight up so he started camping like crazy, it was total BS.

yeah that was extremely gay. So was his Genesis 1 sets....people hated him till he pretty much stopped playing i think though....playing whack will do that though.

 

[JediSange]

Players like Mango and Armada shouldn't factor into a MU debate, their skill level is too high.
Mango could probably beat a lot of high level Foxes with Link, Armada could probably beat a lot of high level Marths with Young Link.
It's the same as saying Link shouldn't be bottom tier in Smash 64 because of how Isai uses him.

Disagreed with this statement. Just because they play at a high skill level does not mean the mechanics of the game differ for them.

What you can say in a MU guide is that:

Marth/Jiggs MU is very skill-level dependant. Why? At low skill level, the Puff does not have enough options (due to lack of skill, knowledge, etc) to punish the Marth once she gets in. Additionally Marth is probably going to land a lot more high-risk moves, even without tips (also assuming an equally low-skilled Marth).

Alternatively, at a high skill level it's even because Puff has some tough spacing to get around, and when she does get in, she gets more out of it.

What does that tell Puff/Marth players? As you keep getting better, that matchup will appear closer to even.

Mango's Puff is not above this, lol. Nothing about him playing Puff makes this different. Yes, his reads are fantastic... so he's going to get in more. But that has nothing to do with characters.

It's just like talking about PP's and Mango's Marth... do they play Marth well? Yes. Better than M2K? Maybe. Does that make what they do from grabs against Fox optimal? No.

My point is that the player behind the character does not change what they can functionally do. Obviously you could say lower skilled players might not be able to frame perfect this or that, but we are not concerned with that in a MU guide. We're concerned with the theory of what CAN they get out of it... not what WILL they get out of it. When you go into the practical world of PLAYING smash, then you need to use those reads, use that knowledge of "what WILL they do?" That is why top players are top players.

 

[Archangel]

Disagreed with this statement. Just because they play at a high skill level does not mean the mechanics of the game differ for them.

What you can say in a MU guide is that:

Marth/Jiggs MU is very skill-level dependant. Why? At low skill level, the Puff does not have enough options (due to lack of skill, knowledge, etc) to punish the Marth once she gets in. Additionally Marth is probably going to land a lot more high-risk moves, even without tips (also assuming an equally low-skilled Marth).

Alternatively, at a high skill level it's even because Puff has some tough spacing to get around, and when she does get in, she gets more out of it.

What does that tell Puff/Marth players? As you keep getting better, that matchup will appear closer to even.

Mango's Puff is not above this, lol. Nothing about him playing Puff makes this different. Yes, his reads are fantastic... so he's going to get in more. But that has nothing to do with characters.

It's just like talking about PP's and Mango's Marth... do they play Marth well? Yes. Better than M2K? Maybe. Does that make what they do from grabs against Fox optimal? No.

My point is that the player behind the character does not change what they can functionally do. Obviously you could say lower skilled players might not be able to frame perfect this or that, but we are not concerned with that in a MU guide. We're concerned with the theory of what CAN they get out of it... not what WILL they get out of it. When you go into the practical world of PLAYING smash, then you need to use those reads, use that knowledge of "what WILL they do?" That is why top players are top players.

*hugs* I think I am in love. are you single?

 

[JediSange]

*hugs* I think I am in love. are you single?

Marth players are so gay.

 

[Archangel]

Marth players are so gay.

wait to you see the sheik and peach players.

 

[JediSange]

For a long time I've kept a forbidden technique to myself. It makes the Marth MU's 10%+ more in his favor. And now I've just made a breakthrough with it...

The Agito Fakie has now evolved into the Double Agito Fakie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUjfGv12WP8

While using this manly technique, your movement powers rival Captain Falcons and the Marth/Peach MU becomes at least 80/20.

 

[JediSange]

Also, Hero is so **** at that MU. The Hero Combo is too OP.

http://youtu.be/P5UQi8DhXcQ?t=5m24s

 

[EPsilon933]

Also, Hero is so **** at that MU. The Hero Combo is too OP.

http://youtu.be/P5UQi8DhXcQ?t=5m24s

I have johns. I had bad habits like falling for the counter trap 3 times and staying stationary in my shield letting him hit me too much

 

[JediSange]

I have johns. I had bad habits like falling for the counter trap 3 times and staying stationary in my shield letting him hit me too much

u mad. Marth meta is Agito Fakie + Neutral B. Thank me later.

 

[BRLNK88]

yeah that was extremely gay. So was his Genesis 1 sets....people hated him till he pretty much stopped playing i think though....playing whack will do that though.

Well its a good think Armada came along and put Hbox in his place.

 

[Archangel]

Well its a good think Armada came along and put Hbox in his place.

I'm pretty sure I was talking about Pink Shinobi in this piece but you never know.

 

[BRLNK88]

I'm pretty sure I was talking about Pink Shinobi in this piece but you never know.

I was referencing the fact that Hbox camps with bairs, and Armada played a character that forced him to learn how to approach.

 

[Archangel]

I was referencing the fact that Hbox camps with bairs, and Armada played a character that forced him to learn how to approach.

true but Hbox is learning to play Sheik now which is one of the easiest characters to learn and she's just as gay as Puff vs Ylink 100x gayer. Apex 2 should be interesting.

 

[JediSange]

Spam and BRLNK, you guys are so lame for ignoring obvious trolls.

 

[Archangel]

Spam and BRLNK, you guys are so lame for ignoring obvious trolls.

i subscribe to that channel so i'd already seen those matches...what do u want from me?

 

[EPsilon933]

true but Hbox is learning to play Sheik now which is one of the easiest characters to learn and she's just as gay as Puff vs Ylink 100x gayer. Apex 2 should be interesting.

ARmada (Peach, Young Link) vs Hungrybox (Jigglypuff, Sheik) would be such a counter pick war

AR Peach < Hbox Puff
AR Peach > Hbox Sheik
AR YL > Hbox Puff
AR YL < Hbox Sheik

The winner of the set is whoever wins the double blind on game 1. Whoever counter picks gets to change characters last so he'll get the favorable matchup. They'll trade wins until the sets over

 

[Redd]

That last one matchup is questionable. I think Armada would still win it. lolz.

 

[JediSange]

i subscribe to that channel so i'd already seen those matches...what do u want from me?

u mad. Marth meta is Agito Fakie + Neutral B. Thank me later.

For a long time I've kept a forbidden technique to myself. It makes the Marth MU's 10%+ more in his favor. And now I've just made a breakthrough with it...

The Agito Fakie has now evolved into the Double Agito Fakie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUjfGv12WP8

While using this manly technique, your movement powers rival Captain Falcons and the Marth/Peach MU becomes at least 80/20.

It is the ultimate troll. It's like, Mango roll out level (but viable).