Marth Matchup Guide v0.4 (Last Update: 09/21/11)

[EPsilon933]

Marth uthrow is so good. Grab Falcon at 100+% and uthrow to uair. It comboes. As he falls down, hit him again with a fair/bair. You might knock him off the stage and set up an edge guard

 

[TheIceCreamMan]

This is a really good thread! I will be checking in on it often with insight of my own later on. Keep up the good work o.^b This will help my choices loads. :D

 

[Wo1f]

Ganon please XD

 

[Metal Reeper]

Ganon -
Uthro>Utilt. Keep em above you. Don't attack first. Ganon can edgegurd Marth REALLY well. Don't ever challenge fair. Don't get grabbed. Watchout for the tricky waveland stuff.

 

[Niko45]

Man I had such a tight money match with Kage this weekend. I wish I could have played him more. Marth vs Ganon is just a blood bath. Such a fun matchup.

 

[Metal Reeper]

The MU is so hit or miss, all or nothing

 

[Lit]

Great points for peach i been confused for the longest when facing against her...

 

[Metal Reeper]

Had to post all this before it gets buried.
FALCO:

I really like retreat fair oos more and more because it's better than WD out if they decide to shine into a SHL for more pressure. You can usually instant fair again after laser stun and hit them where as if you WD out the laser will lock you into poorer spacing and you'll at best be escaping from more shield pressure.

I can't emphasize enough how good it is to avoid getting caught in shield pressure. There's a certain amount of conditioning that Falcos want to establish with shield pressure and if they can't get it consistently you're much more likely to escape it when it does happen. I honestly can limit shield pressure opportunities now to like 2-3 times a match, sometimes less, and I think it largely comes down to never shielding when you're scared, always knowing when you HAVE to shield and never shielding when you are not actually under a direct threat. I feel like a lot of players shield because they think they're in trouble but then once they realize they're not, they've already given up too much neutrality and at that point their best option is to stay in shield and wait for shield pressure in order to try to escape it. If you can cut excess shielding out of your game Falco becomes much much easier.

It's sort of like when you see an empty hop grab attempt coming - just ****ing roll or something. Move. As soon as you sense that you don't need to be shielding, get out of there. Change position. The longer you sit in one spot the better positioning they will gain for their approach. Even if you just roll away asap you will at least be changing position and forcing them to readjust. Really you just want to play confidently and not shield unnecessarily ever, but in the instances where it happens, this is the next best thing you can do.

DOC:

Mers:

I don't know how many times I will say this on smashboards but UP THROW DOC. Up throw him and position yourself to up tilt/uair/fair him as he tries to get back down.

Way too much excessive movement in game 1. You're DDing from a distance like this is vs Falcon and he's pill approach ****** you for it. Face Doc, jab/fair his pills and try to space fairs on him. Not just late fair. SHDFair is huge, early retreat fair into waveland is also good. Mixing up your fair game will create openings. Basically, your first stock on Yoshis is much more what you want to be doing all the time in this matchup, although your spacing was a little too close there too. If the doc likes to full hop pill you need to be calling him out for that and full hop fairing both his pill and him upon the start up. Then just string tons of fairs together, push him off stage and hopefully edgeguard.

Fair dtilt on shield is really "meh" as far as I'm concerned. It's pretty crappy pressure and if they just roll behind (like Boss does on you all the time) you are auto *****. I'm always much more conscious of getting rolled behind, so I'll fair shield and just wait to see what they do at that point, which is still a ton of pressure with less commitment. Fair dtilt imo is better against CCing, for say, a sheik or samus who is blatantly looking to trade a hit for a CC **** combo, that's when I feel spacing fair dtilt comes in really handy.

Ok, even tho I said up throw doc, fthrow is still **** if you actually take advantage of it, which you're not. Just eyeballing his DI in the video I can tell you you could have fthrow dash attacked him for big combos off of most/all your fthrows.

You are double jumping immediately out of things like back throw off stage or any type of hit that puts you out hovering near the ledge. Both the Doc and Fox blatantly committed to calling you out on it. Keep that jump. Use fair on reaction to protect yourself if you have to. Marth is so free if he jumps out like this a lot.

You're misspacing as Doc wavelands up from the edge. Wavedash back down tilt is your friend here. You can anticipate dtilting his shield and react to what he does after. You might get a quick DD grab. Maybe you SHDFair quickly and catch him coming out. After you've conditioned him to waveland up with his shield, you can just start grabbing him. :D

He was critiquing, that's why it is typed in 3rd person.
You should put in OP Jedi.

 

[JrJet]

When I'm versing a ganon I think spacing is very important. Marth may have range but so does ganon. It very easy to get punished on the ground with an fsmash or in the air with multiple uairs. You also want to do your best to stay on the ledge. If ganon gets you off the ledge he can ledge guard EXTREMELEY well.
On the other hand, ganon is pretty easy for marth to ledge guard due to marth's awesome range and Ganon's poor save move.

 

[SpeedyJ]

Are we doing C.Falcon discussion? I don't see myself as the greatest player, but I'd definitely like to contribute to support this great idea.

 

[JediSange]

Are we doing C.Falcon discussion? I don't see myself as the greatest player, but I'd definitely like to contribute to support this great idea.

I support this idea. I think I have a good C. Falcon game... need to update the guide again soon. The basic idea to me is that, on stage it's even. He has so much mobility and combo options, but at the same time a good Marth controls a lot of his approach options and you get a lot from grabs (once you know percents and such), and tipped fairs, etc. I view this as like... you play the Shiek game until you get in, then you play the Spacie game. And edge guarding C.Fal is cake, imo. He is very limited in options.

 

[SpeedyJ]

I always play defensive in this MU and wavedash grab because if I do anything else I always end up getting shield grabbed. And then the rest is usual Marth shenanigans like U-throw chain grab or U-tilt. And you have a great spacing game. If he runs up and grabs you or N-Airs or something just press A and stop him in his tracks haha. Once you get the first grab you really never have to approach lol.

I always thought this was Marth's advantage and he has more stages too (but then again my mind is trapped in 06 a lot of the time).

Spoiler

maybe more later if you want more

 

[Thoraxe]

c. falcon is such a hard match up for marth when your opponent knows what they're doing! falcon's combo and punish game > marth in this match up. I would be very appreciative if some experienced marth players would enlighten me with some pro tips against that ****ing knee. I'll even contribute! Keep stages small with platforms (like every other marth match up) ban FD in my opinion.

 

[OverLord]

mmh... recently against Falcon I like to go on FD. You can chase and juggle easily. So I don't know, i just feel really comfy there, maybe it's just me.

In general though, yeah, it's bad for Marth against Falcon, even though when I play Falcon against Marth I like to go there.. but I prefer DL.

 

[SpeedyJ]

In regards to FD, you're probably right. Not only that but you can edge guard more easily and there are not platforms for him to run around on (although I'm not sure if they help him more than they help you).

 

[JediSange]

In regards to FD, you're probably right. Not only that but you can edge guard more easily and there are not platforms for him to run around on (although I'm not sure if they help him more than they help you).

I prefer Yoshi's Story against Falcon, as you can control the space so well as Marth. To contrast, a surprise knee is pretty much your stock. I'd say I like to take Falcon to Yoshi's or Pokemon's. Pokemon has a lot of options for wall teching, idk... in general I don't think that matchup is TOO stage dependant. I don't even mind it so much on Dreamland nowadays.

 

[DarkChronosColdsteel]

Dude, Im a Marth mainer, and everytime I fight a Sheik, I just blame the universe

IMO we should avoid to use Marth vs a Sheik player :l

 

[SpeedyJ]

I prefer Yoshi's Story against Falcon, as you can control the space so well as Marth. To contrast, a surprise knee is pretty much your stock. I'd say I like to take Falcon to Yoshi's or Pokemon's. Pokemon has a lot of options for wall teching, idk... in general I don't think that matchup is TOO stage dependant. I don't even mind it so much on Dreamland nowadays.

Yeah I know what you mean. I'm pretty happy to fight Falcon on any stage but that's because this is my most confident match-up (coz of so much practice lol).

But Yoshi's Story would be my first choice as well.

Wouldn't a plausible strategy be to not take them to Pokemon Stadium because they like that stage, so if you lose, you bring them there?

 

[Sol.]

Great guide!
My 2 cents on the peach MU:
- Keep peach in the air (as stated above)

- STOP f-throw > dash attack (I've seen this happen way too often even though the peach will always DI correctly, and tech and punish with d-smash) and f/dthrowing as much in general. (I know this is stated above, but it really needs to be emphasized a lot) Marth’s tech chase on peach isn’t even that great anyway, and you risk missing a grab and getting d-smashed.

- Space, space, space. Peach HATES when marth spaces correctly because she doesn’t get a chance to punish (which is how she gets most of her hits and kills) and she can’t get inside of your sword.

- Stop going for those long and drawn out series of fairs > ken combo. Peaches have learned how to DI that for a while now. Just do quick, short combos to keep her off her balance and offstage. Get the spike when you see a chance to get it.

- When you go for a grab and peach sidesteps, don’t sidestep in order to avoid a grab. It’s just another way of giving her a free d-smash. I think the best thing to do when that happens is to lightshield (I think you can roll away too). Sure, you may get grabbed in response, but it’s better than eating a d-smash. Most of your shields in the match should be lightshields imo because they get you away from her when she dtilts/d-smashes/fairs.

- After you pull off a combo and she regains her ground – retreat and regain your space. Don’t get too greedy. I’ve seen in so many matches (and in my own experiences) that as soon as peach gets back to the ground, marths try to keep up the combos and end up just getting pushed/dtilted/d-smashed for it.

- If she pulls a turnip, you should primarily be full/double jumping over them, and if she still tries to follow up her turnip approach with a fair/nair then just follow up with a perfectly timed+spaced falling fair. Other ways for getting past the turnips are: nairing through them when she tries to approach, or powershielding them when you don't have enough space to full jump. I thought of another neat but risky (if you don't know the timing) way to use the powershield against turnips - run in and powershield to interrupt her float > turnip throw > fair/nair and follow up with a nair or something; as I said, it's risky, but so rewarding. Imo both of these are wonderful mixups, but as I said before, full/double jump > falling fair should be the primary way for avoiding turnips.

- Walltech > bair when peach fairs you when you try to sweetspot the edge

- Learn to bait peach when edgeguarding her, and perfect your edgeguarding in general.
Check out how well armada (marth) edgeguards his opponents especially by baiting them most of the time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9_FpxE6eY0&list=FLlqVNxduPl6M&index=15 (0:07, 0:31, 1:57-2:02, 2:41-2:47)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5LWuV1YcMY&list=FLlqVNxduPl6M&index=17 (2:10-2:17)
Sure, some of his edgeguards had flaws and he should have reacted differently on some of them, but these vids should provide good examples on how to edgeguard her.

 

[AustinRC]

Great guide!
- When you go for a grab and peach sidesteps, don’t sidestep in order to avoid a grab. It’s just another way of giving her a free d-smash. I think the best thing to do when that happens is to lightshield (I think you can roll away too). Sure, you may get grabbed in response, but it’s better than eating a d-smash. Most of your shields in the match should be lightshields imo because they get you away from her when she dtilts/d-smashes/fairs.

Everything but this I'll agree with. If you jump cancel the grab and the peach spot dodges and then tries to dsmash if you grab again you will grab her out of the dsmash. JUST SAYING!!! <3

 

[Sol.]

Ah, I see. I never actually tried to re-grab after missing the first grab; I always sidestepped or rolled. Thanks for the correction :]

 

[t-iceman]

i think marth falcon is 50/50 cause both characters have a lot of advantages. Falcon gets way more off grabs then marth does (down throw and up throw both are easy combo starters and at higher percents they are guaranteed kills with knee), where as all of marth's throws are essentially tech chases (except for up throw but falcon can jump out if they are using correct di, you can up air if you realize they are jumping out though and falcon without a jump is a dead man). Off stage marth has falcon on complete lockdown if you know what you're doing (as long as falcon can't sweet spot his jump he's screwed because you can just stay out of the up b hitbox and fsmash him before he hits the ground and if you read the sweetspot you can go down and gimp him via double fair or fair to reverse up b, there is also situational edgeguards that i am too lazy to mention) where as falcon can't really do much other than hold the edge and hope you screw up. Another key thing to remember is that falcon has only two real approach moves: nair and grab. You can argue that falcon's fair and dair can be approach moves but both take a really long time to get active hit boxes and can be stopped usually by sheer reaction without having to predict anything. Falcon is faster than you, don't try to approach falcon with a lot of aerials because you will get punished. Full jump fair is really good because it beats both of falcon's approaches (if you space the full jump, again you don't want to jump towards falcon in most situations) and leads to combos. Don't go on platforms against falcon (while he is below you) unless you enjoy eating a lot of up airs. Don't try to run in and grab falcon, he is faster than you and you will get punished. As far as comboing goes once you get falcon in the air you own him. mix in up airs, fairs, up tilts etc. and then get him offstage (an offstage falcon at 10% is less dangerous than an onstage falcon at 120%).

Hope this helps, if you have questions let me know

 

[BRLNK88]

Marth/Link should be 55:45 at worst, not 70:30.
Why? A good Link that plays the MU properly avoids getting caught on the edge, which is where Marth can **** Link. If Link controls his spacing, Marth can't do much against the bombs, and once you get Marth in the air Link combos the **** out of him. Not to mention Link has that enormous grab range (assuming you time the grabs appropriately).

 

[CaptainCaprisun]

This guide made me think about my game more, specially my sheik games. my friends been killin be lately as sheik lol. Thx man, it'll be pretty helpful down the road.

 

[Archangel]

Marth/Link should be 55:45 at worst, not 70:30.
Why? I good Link that plays the MU properly avoids getting caught on the edge, which is where Marth can **** Link. If Link controls his spacing, Marth can't do much against the bombs, and once you get Marth in the air Link combos the **** out of him. Not to mention Link has that enormous grab range (assuming you time the grabs appropriately).

This ^

Link can space camp with his projectiles that I don't think very many matches are worse than 60-40 in 2011/12. Surely not THIS match-up. I'm not sure you've ever played against a Germ or HDL but when you do I'm sure you'll be updating fast.

With that said I expect Marth to win just don't make the mistake of Striking down to FD...IT'S A TRAP!!!!!!! Luckily most Link's don't know about the gayness of FD though...

I'd say this MU is closer to 55-45. Sometimes 60-40 or 50-50 depending on stage/counter picks...etc. but overall 55-45 is closest.

 

[BRLNK88]

Glad you agree, in fact, I was actually expecting older MU charts to possibly have Link at an advantage, simply because A LOT of Marth players have no idea how to fight Link.
I'm a Marth main, but whenever I'm forced to fight another Marth, 70% of the time I'll try the ditto, either get my *** kicked or barely win, and then switch to Link and **** face. The Marth will try to space or pressure me with fair, I'll just shell out the bombs and boomerangs until I have an opening, then run off a long combo out of dthrow, eventually leading to an edgeguard, not to mention that "SKRRAAAAHHHH!!!" ***** Marth hard. That being said, there are naturally Marths that do know the match-up and can get around my gimmicks, and then I'll get stuck on the edge where Marth pretty much just ***** Link, especially once Link loses his 2nd jump.

 

[Tekk]

Puff v Marth is 55/45 in Puff's favor imo.

I'll develop later.

 

[OverLord]

Yo Tekk, good **** winning NML

Anyway Puff-Marth is even IMO, let you see next time we play >:D

 

[Tekk]

Thanks dude, add me on msn!

Yeah actually I think even is more accurate.
Just don't let Marth's range blinden you: Puff can outspace him in numberous ways, especially with bair and nair.
Not to forget Marth is an easy rest target, and not that hard to edgeguard if you have some tricks.

 

[Archangel]

I think Marth Puff is close to even if you play extremely gay. hit and run and hope for a time-out or impatience of puff to get you a win.

 

[Tekk]

^I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense, Marth can easily chase and combo Puff in the air once he gets a tipper'd fair on him.
Also recovering with puff vs marth can be difficult because of his sword.

 

[BRLNK88]

Puff makes me wanna pick up fox... >_>

 

[Archangel]

^I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense, Marth can easily chase and combo Puff in the air once he gets a tipper'd fair on him.
Also recovering with puff vs marth can be difficult because of his sword.

Not sure if you've ever tried to go head to head with a Puff like Juangrybox's but if you have you'd know it isn't easy. Usually you'll get down to 1-1 stocks if your good enough and then you get clutch-rested.

 

[OverLord]

Marth can easily avoid being rested playing carefully.

 

[BRLNK88]

Whiffing an fsmash or utilt->rest should be the only ways Marth can get rested right?

 

[Tekk]

Not sure if you've ever tried to go head to head with a Puff like Juangrybox's but if you have you'd know it isn't easy. Usually you'll get down to 1-1 stocks if your good enough and then you get clutch-rested.

Not saying it's easy, but going head-to-head with puff vs marth is hard as well.
This matchup is A LOT about baiting an aerial & punish hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szFTYa_ZSLM&feature=related
@ 1:21 is the air combo'ing/chasing I was talking about.
1:51 never DJ above puff, it's marth's worst position it this matchup, since Upair ***** him really hard.

To avoid getting rested when puff crouches, sh spaced dair is a good move: has enough stun so she can't punish you, and will likely condition her into shielding, which you can use to land those precious grabs.

Be smart.

 

[Archangel]

Marth can easily avoid being rested playing carefully.

playing carefully more or less is what i mean by playing extremely gay.

Not saying it's easy, but going head-to-head with puff vs marth is hard as well.
This matchup is A LOT about baiting an aerial & punish hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szFTYa_ZSLM&feature=related
@ 1:21 is the air combo'ing/chasing I was talking about.
1:51 never DJ above puff, it's marth's worst position it this matchup, since Upair ***** him really hard.

To avoid getting rested when puff crouches, sh spaced dair is a good move: has enough stun so she can't punish you, and will likely condition her into shielding, which you can use to land those precious grabs.

Be smart.

I agree. It is possible to get some combos off a puff. Still you have to be very very safe when you play puff. I considering playing that way to be kind gay though...feels to much like brawl. but that's just my opinion.

 

[OverLord]

It's not like you get rested if you play too aggressively, you can pressure her and still be safe from rest, it's not that easy for Puff to rest you if you know what to watch out for.

 

[Tekk]

Salepate has a very aggressive yet carefull style vs puff, too bad I don't have any matches vs him.

 

[Archangel]

It's not like you get rested if you play too aggressively, you can pressure her and still be safe from rest, it's not that easy for Puff to rest you if you know what to watch out for.

if your talking about puff in general It's true but...Very good(gay) puffs know how to rest things that seem...unrestable... Resting isn't the only danger.