Marth Matchup Guide v0.4 (Last Update: 09/21/11)

[OverLord]

I played HBox at Rom3, we did like 4-5 friendlies and I got rested like just twice.

 

[Archangel]

I played HBox at Rom3, we did like 4-5 friendlies and I got rested like just twice.

i didn't get rested much except for when I went super aggressive mode. You take more chances you open up for more counters attacks. Playing careful is the safest way to win.

 

[Tekk]

Yeah bad example actually lol.
I'll come up with something better later.

 

[Archangel]

judging from what my own experiences and what i've seen...i'm not buying 60-40 marth's favor.

all i'm saying.

 

[Tekk]

Never said it was in marth's favor.
I think this matchup is pretty even, that's all.

 

[Archangel]

Never said it was in marth's favor.
I think this matchup is pretty even, that's all.

Marth vs. Jigglypuff
60/40, Marth

It's on the first page. I can see pretty even. On most neutrals it is it's slight puff on DL64 and all counter picks, even on PS2. marth's advantage on yoshi's but....what puff plays on yoshi's?

 

[BRLNK88]

It's on the first page. I can see pretty even. On most neutrals it is it's slight puff on DL64 and all counter picks, even on PS2. marth's advantage on yoshi's but....what puff plays on yoshi's?

One time I played a puff main on Yoshi's and still lost because he spent 3/4 of the match floating near the top of the screen...
>_>

 

[Archangel]

One time I played a puff main on Yoshi's and still lost because he spent 3/4 of the match floating near the top of the screen...
>_>

how did he get away with that? where you playing as Marth?

 

[BRLNK88]

how did he get away with that? where you playing as Marth?

Back then I was still a very defensive Marth, accustomed to playing against hyper-aggressive, tech-skill oriented spacie mains.
Naturally, I had no idea how to fight a Jiggs like that. I would miss a SHFFL on a uair and he'd come down and punish.

 

[Archangel]

Back then I was still a very defensive Marth, accustomed to playing against hyper-aggressive, tech-skill oriented spacie mains.
Naturally, I had no idea how to fight a Jiggs like that. I would miss a SHFFL on a uair and he'd come down and punish.

wow...you don't exactly auto win on Yoshi's because you can be killed easy to but...if you play patiently there isn't much room for puff to run. you can kill her with tipper tilts

 

[EthereaL]

All Marth has to do is space carefully and he wins, because Puff can't approach.

'Nuff said. (regarding the match-up being in favor of Marth)

 

[JediSange]

All Marth has to do is space carefully and he wins, because Puff can't approach.

'Nuff said. (regarding the match-up being in favor of Marth)

^

Puff/Marth matchup is campy as hell. But I think I will revise this to reflect 50/50. It's just that when Puff does get in, she typically gets more out of it.

 

[JediSange]

Glad you agree, in fact, I was actually expecting older MU charts to possibly have Link at an advantage, simply because A LOT of Marth players have no idea how to fight Link.
I'm a Marth main, but whenever I'm forced to fight another Marth, 70% of the time I'll try the ditto, either get my *** kicked or barely win, and then switch to Link and **** face. The Marth will try to space or pressure me with fair, I'll just shell out the bombs and boomerangs until I have an opening, then run off a long combo out of dthrow, eventually leading to an edgeguard, not to mention that "SKRRAAAAHHHH!!!" ***** Marth hard. That being said, there are naturally Marths that do know the match-up and can get around my gimmicks, and then I'll get stuck on the edge where Marth pretty much just ***** Link, especially once Link loses his 2nd jump.

I will be covering lower tiers later, but playing in MD/VA I don't have a lot of great Links to play consistently. I think some guy named Shep/Ship or something like that is close...? Idk.

But your thinking is wrong -- You can't outcamp Marth. He's too gay. The thing is, Marth can combo Link np. It's like the same combos as the ditto (more or less). So a good Marth will use falco-ish spacing against lasers so that if you try to pull a bomb you'll get punished... or atleast make you feel as such.

Marth/Link is 60/40, Marth... 55/45 at worst, imo

 

[EPsilon933]

Marth:Zelda = 90:10. Marth up throw = Zelda feet on the ground after -1 stock

 

[OverLord]

Marth:Zelda = 90:10. Marth up throw = Zelda feet on the ground after -1 stock

Yep, kinda.

But Zelda players tend to think the MU is not that bad. Really don't get why.

 

[Deleted member]

can someone explain to me how the general consensus is:

Marth is high tier

and yet according to this matchup guide, he has advantages against pretty much everyone not named sheik

 

[EPsilon933]

Yep, kinda.

But Zelda players tend to think the MU is not that bad. Really don't get why.

Tipper distance = toe distance

can someone explain to me how the general consensus is:

Marth is high tier

and yet according to this matchup guide, he has advantages against pretty much everyone not named sheik

Marth is so difficult to play. Every swing, if you miss, there's so much punish opportunity. Marth has lots of lag on all his moves and he leans forward during the lag animation. So punishable

Also, imo Fox 55:45 Marth. Fox has so much mobility against Marth

 

[JediSange]

can someone explain to me how the general consensus is:

Marth is high tier

and yet according to this matchup guide, he has advantages against pretty much everyone not named sheik

So, it was explained well enough in the previous post, but I will elaborate...

Top players still consider Marth to be devastating. If you ask Mango his top 2, it would be Shiek/Marth (cite interview here from some tournament). Heavy revision will be done to this matchup guide in the near future. Right now the 60/40 jiggs should probably be 50/50. The reasoning for this is because both players have to camp to high hell. And when one or the other gets in, the jiggs will get more out of it... because more is guaranteed (whereas Marth has to get some good DI reads, etc).

The point is, Marth's game finds its foundation in the punish game. And the higher up you go in play level, the more effective that part of your game has to be. For example, the matchup at low level of play is completely different vs fox. At low level play, pending you can chain grab and jab reset, you might experience more of a 60/40 Marth's favor. But as Fox's get better, those same tricks won't work. They will SDI out of combos, nail all their techs, pressure your shield, etc... so when an opening does come, you need to approach M2K's level of punish to compete in this highly evolved meta.

 

[EthereaL]

Marth:Zelda = 90:10. Marth up throw = Zelda feet on the ground after -1 stock

So, according to your logic...

Ice Climbers : everyone else = 90:10. Ice climbers grab = Everyone else out of the grab after -1 stock.

I don't disagree with you that Marth is highly advantaged. I just think that you should have a slightly more open mind than "if Marth grabs her he takes her stock, therefore he wins."

Also, imo Fox 55:45 Marth. Fox has so much mobility against Marth

This. I would venture to say even, considering how deadly Fox is if he can get under Marth.

Top players still consider Marth to be devastating. If you ask Mango his top 2, it would be Shiek/Marth (cite interview here from some tournament). Heavy revision will be done to this matchup guide in the near future. Right now the 60/40 jiggs should probably be 50/50. The reasoning for this is because both players have to camp to high hell. And when one or the other gets in, the jiggs will get more out of it... because more is guaranteed (whereas Marth has to get some good DI reads, etc).

No. One can't base a character matchup on how "difficult" it is to use one's advantage. The simple fact is, Marth has an advantage.

Yes, if Puff gets inside, Marth can be punished (this was as true five years ago as it is now). However, if Marth spaces correctly, Puff can not get inside without a negative-value trade-off, because Puff can not approach without forcing such a trade.

rest of your post

This part of your post boils down to "the better player has a better chance of taking advantage of their character's advantages." I don't understand why you included it, but I don't disagree. To an extent.

What I do disagree is that the fundamental of Marth's game is punishment. While, yes, Marth can punish, the fundamental part of his game is spacing.


Moving on. When considering character matchups, a person has to assume players of equal (high) level are playing the matchup. One can't say that "Puff can punish if Marth messes up his spacing."

Marth is a character that is all about spacing.

Puff is a character that is all about punishing.

When considering character matchups, one has to assume both players have near-perfect tech skill/9 frame reaction time (.15 of a second). While this isn't realistic for every player, it gives an accurate impression of the character's abilities into themselves. Therefore, one should assume that Marth will space properly.

60:40 adv. Marth is generous to Puff. I would say 65:35.

In the words of Mang0, "Puff can't win if you play gay."

 

[OverLord]

Ok, but 65-35 for Marth-Puff is just not knowing what you're talkin' about.

 

[EPsilon933]

So, according to your logic...

Ice Climbers : everyone else = 90:10. Ice climbers grab = Everyone else out of the grab after -1 stock.

Nana is Easy to separate from Popo, so both Ice Climbers together and 1 of them grabbing you doesn't happen so easily. There are escapes to some of his gimmicks (Peach can DI up to avoid dthow dair, the hand off is really difficult to perform and you need to be near the ledge facing the ledge), unless wobbling's not banned

I don't disagree with you that Marth is highly advantaged. I just think that you should have a slightly more open mind than "if Marth grabs her he takes her stock, therefore he wins."

Exaggeration

Spoiler

. Maybe it's more 80:20 than 90:10. She does have a bit of a spacing game against Marth

 

[the_CAM_factor]

well zelda is kinda like puff in that if you let her get in a few on you a few times your stock is over, but she cant combo as well as jiggz. zelda players like it cuz as long as marth players arent getting beneath them its not awful as their other matchups, once marth does get beneath her though the stock ends.

 

[EthereaL]

Nana is Easy to separate from Popo, so both Ice Climbers together and 1 of them grabbing you doesn't happen so easily. There are escapes to some of his gimmicks (Peach can DI up to avoid dthow dair, the hand off is really difficult to perform and you need to be near the ledge facing the ledge), unless wobbling's not banned

Very true; I was exaggerating for effect.

Exaggeration

Spoiler

. Maybe it's more 80:20 than 90:10. She does have a bit of a spacing game against Marth

^this.

Ok, but 65-35 for Marth-Puff is just not knowing what you're talkin' about.

 

[Redd]

I will be covering lower tiers later, but playing in MD/VA I don't have a lot of great Links to play consistently. I think some guy named Shep/Ship or something like that is close...? Idk.

But your thinking is wrong -- You can't outcamp Marth. He's too gay. The thing is, Marth can combo Link np. It's like the same combos as the ditto (more or less). So a good Marth will use falco-ish spacing against lasers so that if you try to pull a bomb you'll get punished... or atleast make you feel as such.

Marth/Link is 60/40, Marth... 55/45 at worst, imo

Play my Link!! Marth is my best MU with him. I think Link does real well for various reasons.

 

[Archangel]

Yep, kinda.

But Zelda players tend to think the MU is not that bad. Really don't get why.

Play a good zelda. Not average/decent but good..that ****'s ****ed up. It is alot like the Puff MU as someone stated but trading bairs with Puff you can take those hits if you trade bair/fair with Zelda it could be g'night or Good game.

With that said Zelda's Cinderella slippers is all she has in the MU. If your playing right(gay/to win) Zelda has very little luck. 65-35 or 60-40. on DL64 or some place like that...it can be a real ***** dealing with Zelda's inability to just ****ing die!

Ok, but 65-35 for Marth-Puff is just not knowing what you're talkin' about.

^This honestly I don't give a **** what Mango says there is a reason why Sheik and Marth aren't winning. There is a reason why he placed much better with his......Mario than he did with his Marth. Mango is a good player but if he says he feels pichu should **** everyone i'm not gonna jump on the band-wagon. Why should I jump on this Marth/Sheik are the top 2 hype train when It's clearly not the case?

 

[OverLord]

Play a good zelda. Not average/decent but good..that ****'s ****ed up. It is alot like the Puff MU as someone stated but trading bairs with Puff you can take those hits if you trade bair/fair with Zelda it could be g'night or Good game.

I played TheLake. In tournament.

Is him good enough for you..?

 

[JediSange]

Marth/Zelda is fairly in Marth's favor... but I don't know enough about it to put a number on it.

I'm still not sold on the fact that Marth/Puff is on puff's side. Right now my stance is even on it. That is coming from my experience playing Mahone. He is a very, very good puff player from the MD/VA area. Like it's been said before, both characters have a hard time getting in safely. Who has more spacing options? I don't really know, but I'd probably say Marth (perhaps a bias opinion). However, Puff gets more out of getting in than Marth does in that matchup.

 

[Archangel]

I played TheLake. In tournament.

Is him good enough for you..?

He is top 5 Zelda's I'd say but I'm not sure how good his Marth game is. Last I saw he was struggling with Taki and he lost to Husband in tournament and Arc or Dart.... someone like that as well. I believe he switches off Zelda for Marth's now unless i'm wrong. How did it go for you vs him?

Marth/Zelda is fairly in Marth's favor... but I don't know enough about it to put a number on it.

I'm still not sold on the fact that Marth/Puff is on puff's side. Right now my stance is even on it. That is coming from my experience playing Mahone. He is a very, very good puff player from the MD/VA area. Like it's been said before, both characters have a hard time getting in safely. Who has more spacing options? I don't really know, but I'd probably say Marth (perhaps a bias opinion). However, Puff gets more out of getting in than Marth does in that matchup.

How did the 60-40 Marth show up on your first page? even is possible I think you just have to "play gay". If both players are highest level the gay game becomes stage dependent. Mahone is a good puff player but he still has a little ways to go before he's at the top. I'll play puff on FD or Yoshi's any day. Yoshi's almost guaranteed not to play there. DL64 slight puff, FoD slight Marth, Battlefield even(or slight puff if your unlucky and get cheated by the Battlefield ledges),

 

[OverLord]

He is top 5 Zelda's I'd say but I'm not sure how good his Marth game is. Last I saw he was struggling with Taki and he lost to Husband in tournament and Arc or Dart.... someone like that as well. I believe he switches off Zelda for Marth's now unless i'm wrong. How did it go for you vs him?

Isn't that enough for you to tell that maybe is Marth having a HUGE advantage on Zelda, instead of TheLake being bad against Marth..?

Anyway If I recall right I lost first match, than he switched to Marth.

 

[Archangel]

Isn't that enough for you to tell that maybe is Marth having a HUGE advantage on Zelda, instead of TheLake being bad against Marth..?

Anyway If I recall right I lost first match, than he switched to Marth.

so you lost to his Zelda than he went Marth?

anyways I'm not saying he doesn't have a Huge advantage but it's a matchup the requires experience. Typically Zelda main's have played Marth and all the other top tiers ALOT. You on the other hand may have played 1 match against Zelda and it was a friendly and you were both drunk. lol

If you know what your doing Zelda shouldn't be a problem at all. If you don't know it well....you in for a set of a lifetime most likely.

 

[OverLord]

Yep, but that is valid for all the characters and all MUs.

If I had more Zelda experience maybe I could've won that set against TheLake, but the fact that I had problems (actually I brought him last stock anyway, just to make clear how this MU is bad for Zelda) doesn't change the fact that Marth-Zelda is really close to a 80-20 MU.

Even if he won first match, he went Marth the second, probably to not risk to lose due to my adapting.


I really do think it is not a tricky MU for Marth, you have just to watch out for a couple of gimmicks and you can utterly shut down her game.

 

[Archangel]

Yep, but that is valid for all the characters and all MUs.

If I had more Zelda experience maybe I could've won that set against TheLake, but the fact that I had problems (actually I brought him last stock anyway, just to make clear how this MU is bad for Zelda) doesn't change the fact that Marth-Zelda is really close to a 80-20 MU.

Even if he won first match, he went Marth the second, probably to not risk to lose due to my adapting.

I really do think it is not a tricky MU for Marth, you have just to watch out for a couple of gimmicks and you can utterly shut down her game.

Assuming its against the greatest Zelda ever and you were the greatest Marth I'd say 70-30 simply because Marth is laggy enough to be hit or grabbed from time to time.

 

[EPsilon933]

Assuming its against the greatest Zelda ever and you were the greatest Marth I'd say 70-30 simply because Marth is laggy enough to be hit or grabbed from time to time.

You don't know how bad Zelda's grab is[collapse="frame data"]standing grab
grabs: 10-11
duration: 30

dash grab
grabs: 10-11
duration: 40

Also, her grab hitboxes are high and small. Some characters can crouch under her grab[/collapse]The bad part about her grab is how she waves her arms out before the hitbox even comes out. So easy to hit

She can't get much out of a grab anyways. There's the dthrow toe gimmick, but it never works on anyone who knows how to DI. She might be able to fool you if she does it on the edge and you instinctively DI to the stage. Her bthrow can set up a little gimp/edgeguard, but knckback only gets significant at 130+%. Too bad her edgeguard is so bad. Then for on stage play, there's uthrow. Marth is bad in the air

 

[Archangel]

You don't know how bad Zelda's grab is[collapse="frame data"]standing grab
grabs: 10-11
duration: 30

dash grab
grabs: 10-11
duration: 40

Also, her grab hitboxes are high and small. Some characters can crouch under her grab[/collapse]The bad part about her grab is how she waves her arms out before the hitbox even comes out. So easy to hit

She can't get much out of a grab anyways. There's the dthrow toe gimmick, but it never works on anyone who knows how to DI. She might be able to fool you if she does it on the edge and you instinctively DI to the stage. Her bthrow can set up a little gimp/edgeguard, but knckback only gets significant at 130+%. Too bad her edgeguard is so bad. Then for on stage play, there's uthrow. Marth is bad in the air

I know how bad her grab is bro. There is enough time to grab you for example if you miss a Fsmash you can get Zelda grabbed.

 

[EthereaL]

there is a reason why Sheik and Marth aren't winning. There is a reason why he placed much better with his......Mario than he did with his Marth. Why should I jump on this Marth/Sheik are the top 2 hype train when It's clearly not the case?

So according to you... Fox hasn't won a national in some time. Obviously he shouldn't be first.

I see the light.


Moving on! Zelda has...her slipper-tipper, toe-bash, whatever you want to call it. Nothing else she has can really stack up to Marth...she has a few more options once Marth is above her, but what character doesn't?

The exact number itself doesn't matter. The fact is that it's lopsided in favor of Marth, and one has several options to any contingency that the Zelda player can play.

How do you all feel about Marth's approach on Young Link? It's something that I've always struggled with.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I know how bad her grab is bro. There is enough time to grab you for example if you miss a Fsmash you can get Zelda grabbed.

Why would a Zelda grab you if you miss an fsmash.

 

[Archangel]

So according to you... Fox hasn't won a national in some time. Obviously he shouldn't be first.

I see the light.


Moving on! Zelda has...her slipper-tipper, toe-bash, whatever you want to call it. Nothing else she has can really stack up to Marth...she has a few more options once Marth is above her, but what character doesn't?

The exact number itself doesn't matter. The fact is that it's lopsided in favor of Marth, and one has several options to any contingency that the Zelda player can play.

How do you all feel about Marth's approach on Young Link? It's something that I've always struggled with.

Ahhh grats on seeing the promised land?.....


anyways I agree about Zelda she's got limited options her only shot is to get you into a touch feel boot vs fair match and even then she might lose.

As for Young Link....I find it hard to believe you have trouble approaching young link. Then again it depends on your experience. you have to do what faint attacks in a way. Make a move to get young link to move. If he shields then grab him. If he jumps back look to avoid the boomerang. If he pulls a bomb.....look to hit him before he can combo you with it. Some times though you can just space double fairs at him before he can do anything. If you space safely and don't let him get room to camp you YL is kinda easy to fight.

Why would a Zelda grab you if you miss an fsmash.

really? for god sakes blur it's an example of a possible scenario...

It's like someone says. "If ____ jumps off a cliff are you gonna jump off too?" Then you reply why would ____ jump off a cliff?

 

[EthereaL]

As for Young Link....I find it hard to believe you have trouble approaching young link. Then again it depends on your experience. you have to do what faint attacks in a way. Make a move to get young link to move. If he shields then grab him. If he jumps back look to avoid the boomerang. If he pulls a bomb.....look to hit him before he can combo you with it. Some times though you can just space double fairs at him before he can do anything. If you space safely and don't let him get room to camp you YL is kinda easy to fight.

That's true. I suppose I'm overcautious when approaching him, and give myself more trouble that way than my opponent does.

 

[Archangel]

That's true. I suppose I'm overcautious when approaching him, and give myself more trouble that way than my opponent does.

well to put it in the words of a friend and young link player. "all young link has is projectiles. As long as you have room to pull bombs and camp you can play the match up, but once Marth gets past that the range difference is just to great".

I believe alot of times frustration causes Marth's to have trouble with characters like young link or doc. Typically your so angry about the cheap shots that when you get in you want to deliver maximum hurt to the camper. So you go for a Fsmash....and miss. Providing a chance for punishment or possibly death. I've found Fsmash is quickly becoming my least favorite move as a marth player. Unless I'm just ****ing around I almost never use it unless it's a sure thing or I feel I can get away with it. Young Link is a bad child that requires discipline. Slash him with your sword a few times and he'll learn his place.

 

[TheLake]

Marth dittos are like my favorite match up in the game

I cant resist

<3 Dair baby...Overlord knows whats up!

I like zelda marth

matchup is 70-30

not too bad

i just play like peach

reason why its not 60-40 like marth peach

is cause i cant grab you and throw veggies at ya

ya dig?