Marth match-up thread

[Emblem Lord]

If Marth does a Fair and DI's back Lucas can't punish with PK fire. It's not fast enough.

Also the new airoddge is anything but awesome. It's complete trash and ****s up the game royally.

Actually on the ground Marth wins overall. His f-tilt and d-tilt beat Lucas' grab by a bit. F-tilt more so then d-tilt. They gimp each other equally well though IMO. Lucas has to stop in place will directing PK thunder plus can't Marth just swat the PK thunder to make it dissappear?

Marth wins in range and close range options. If Lucas tries PK fire at close range Marth can punish on reaction. Marth's SH fair puts him in a postion that he can react to pretty much any thing his opponent does. If you spotdodge then he can jump away or do a forward b and catch you as you come out. Marth's range will beat out any of Lucas close range options. Remember that Marth can DI his fair the entire time he is in the SH. So honestly there won't be many times where Lucas will have the chance to directly punish Marth for using it when he spaces correctly.

Also as for better combos with better damage, well I need to see some numbers because Marth has combos too that work at low percents that are nice as well, but I don't mention them because they only work at low percents. I find that alot of characters have combos like those. Also how reliable are Lucas' combos?

As for PK Fire, well Marth has his answers to those just like he has his answers to other projectile campers. The main thing about it is that it follows a straight pattern and only goes a set distance plus Lucas can only shoot one or two before Marth closes in completely. Then when Marth outspaces Lucas he is in trouble. Also Marth can consistently kill sooner then Lucas can. Lucas' best kill move is his u-smash which is unwieldly and slow to come out. It's easy to respond to.

Also their out of shield options are certainly not a draw. Marth has better out of shield options then Lucas.
Lucas's grab is better. But Marth has better smashes and better moves. He has his up b and his dancing blade for out of shield use. As well as his good tilts.

No, no. I feel comfortable with 6/4 in Marth's favor right now. You haven't given me anything noteworthy and I was able to refute some of your points.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Emblem Lord, I hate to say it but you really don't know what your talking about. I can't take anything you say seriously because you're not famous in terms of skill. But airdodging does suck, you're right about that.

 

[Anomic_Punk]

thats great but king ddd ***** marth AND diddy
thats all i want to say to this silly argument,
maybe itll settle things once and for all.
stop bickering, because the self proclaimed king of dreamland is STILL THE KING

I must agree that 3D whails on Marth, pretty hard.

Dedede doesn't **** Marth.

And plz leave my thread if you have nothing intelligent to say.

Also we aren't bickering. We are having an intelligent debate. Something that seems to be beyond your understanding or your capabilities.

I myself say that 3D beats Marth because of a few simple things:

Marth's recovery options are limited, and 3D can b-air wall off the stage or even footstool, leading to a quick and untimely death for Marth.

Dedede can FORCE Marth into a recovery vs. edgeguard position with his chain throw, ending at the ledge with a f-throw or b-throw.

Spacing against campy 3D's is difficult, at best. Waddle-whatever spam along with f-tilts make it hard to approach, and if you get in too close you're likely to get shield grabbed by 3D's amazing grab range, tossed across the stage, and forced into recovery because of one miss-spaced f-air.

If you manage to get inside his range without getting grabbed, 3D has an amazing spot-dodge which is usually followed by a grab, u-tilt or d-smash, or a roll that places him just behind Marth or just outside tipper range, and there again you're left at a poor spacing disadvantage.

When you DO get a combo started on 3D, he's hard to put a hurt to- air dodging has all but ruined the f-air chain, and spikes are much more difficult to land.

If you get him off the ledge, 3D has more than enough jumps to counter attack any aggressive edgeguard by f-airing you against the bottom or side of the stage, which isn't very fun- And just LETTING 3D come back to the stage is almost unthinkable when it was such a hassle to get him off in the first place.

Stage control, multiple edgeguard options, multiple jumps and the ability to live to 140% + on average gives Dedede the clear advantage in this matchup, in my opinion.


I'm not saying its unwinnable, but you definitely have to know your spacing, be more patient than your opponent, and be smarter than your opponent.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean...I agree.

Which is why the match is 6/4.

You made it sound alot worse then it actually is though.

But yes, I agree in that I don't think it's debatable. Dedede has advantage. But attacking Dedede off the stage is easy. Even if you don't kill him racking up damage is always nice. And it's harder for him to hit you back since his aerials are slower.

 

[cablepuff]

marth can infinite grab lucas according to simna.

 

[Zankoku]

It's actually Ness. Lucas with proper DI can break out, barely, but it'll probably set him up for something worse unless he expects it.

 

[TechnoMonster]

If Marth does a Fair and DI's back Lucas can't punish with PK fire. It's not fast enough.

Also the new airoddge is anything but awesome. It's complete trash and ****s up the game royally.

Actually on the ground Marth wins overall. His f-tilt and d-tilt beat Lucas' grab by a bit. F-tilt more so then d-tilt. They gimp each other equally well though IMO. Lucas has to stop in place will directing PK thunder plus can't Marth just swat the PK thunder to make it dissappear?

Marth wins in range and close range options. If Lucas tries PK fire at close range Marth can punish on reaction. Marth's SH fair puts him in a postion that he can react to pretty much any thing his opponent does. If you spotdodge then he can jump away or do a forward b and catch you as you come out. Marth's range will beat out any of Lucas close range options. Remember that Marth can DI his fair the entire time he is in the SH. So honestly there won't be many times where Lucas will have the chance to directly punish Marth for using it when he spaces correctly.

Also as for better combos with better damage, well I need to see some numbers because Marth has combos too that work at low percents that are nice as well, but I don't mention them because they only work at low percents. I find that alot of characters have combos like those. Also how reliable are Lucas' combos?

As for PK Fire, well Marth has his answers to those just like he has his answers to other projectile campers. The main thing about it is that it follows a straight pattern and only goes a set distance plus Lucas can only shoot one or two before Marth closes in completely. Then when Marth outspaces Lucas he is in trouble. Also Marth can consistently kill sooner then Lucas can. Lucas' best kill move is his u-smash which is unwieldy and slow to come out. It's easy to respond to.

Also their out of shield options are certainly not a draw. Marth has better out of shield options then Lucas.
Lucas's grab is better. But Marth has better smashes and better moves. He has his up b and his dancing blade for out of shield use. As well as his good tilts.

No, no. I feel comfortable with 6/4 in Marth's favor right now. You haven't given me anything noteworthy and I was able to refute some of your points.

N-air (no strong hit) to tilt or AAA lands 95% of the time for about 25% damage, at any percent, and bad dodging or a misguided aerial can make for a stick at just the right time. Down throw chains to all of Lucas' aerials between 0-10% or so as well (2-hit combo, DI included). SHFF F-air and U-air semi-chain into most aerials.

Lucas isn't in trouble at all when outspaced; if marth taps your shield, you can just retreating PK fire safely on reaction and avoid any repercussions with the potential for damage, and if he's too tight n-air out of shield will connect into a combo. Marth doesn't gain anything by spacing. Additionally, if you call any move, you can just sh retreating pk fire him in the face for free damage, and if you're wrong, you're still good to go.

SH n-air also goes straight over d-tilt and will cleanly out prioritize f-smash and f-tilt when tight due to the lean and it shield pokes to boot. I'm not mistaken about this matchup.

Lucas also does much more damage and kills at generally lower percents (provided he doesn't get tippered); between stick, down smash and usmash, 80% kills are hardly uncommon, and Marths living to 130 will find themselves struggling to set a foot on land as F-air, U-air, PK thunder, Psi Magnet, and F-tilt all become potential killers, and PK Fire pops him way up. For damage building, N-air combos, AAA in tight, and low% grab combos are ridiculous, and that's not a lie; I have no issues with alternating hits with a good Marth because I know mine count for more, and I have PK fire to make up any slack, and if he spams his most powerful moves they won't be able to kill me effectively later in the stock.

 

[knightpraetor]

"Also about Marth's gimpable recovery. Yes, Marth can be gimped, but only if he is very low. If you try to hit Marth when he is off the stage then more then likely he will hit you right back since he outranges alot of characters. Plus his up b is very fast and activates instantly. So Marth can easily stage spike you if you aren't careful. The only characters that can really consistently gimp Marth are MK, Pit and probably R.O.B. Maybe Dedede, but he is a little slow."

how does rob gimp marth? i've only played the match a bit, but i had trouble in the finals (but won barely with marth and then heavily with pit) so i've been practicing it...however, i don't get gimped by rob much (one time due to perfectly timed spike out of an up+B that was done early to throw off the timing)....is there an easy way to get marth when he goes low?

and dedede most definitely cannot gimp marth in time if you know what you're doing. However 3d definitely has the advantage. I'm wondering who i should play against him at the tourney wednesday.

anyways for the most part i've agreed with what i've read on the character matchups i actually know.


"If you get him off the ledge, 3D has more than enough jumps to counter attack any aggressive edgeguard by f-airing you against the bottom or side of the stage, which isn't very fun- And just LETTING 3D come back to the stage is almost unthinkable when it was such a hassle to get him off in the first place."

this i don't agree with..how the hell does dedede have enough jumps to make it difficult for marth to edgeguard him..his aerials are slow and easy to get around. I understand that it's hard to edgeguard his up+B, but even so, every time he goes off i expect a good bit of free damage. I don't expect any gimps against dedede, but still.

and the same goes for ROB...marth has an easy time edgeguarding him..it won't kill him, but the free damage tilts the match in marth's favor i think

 

[Ripple]

There is no way that it is that much in marth's favor against DK. it is even. or at least 6-4. I'm probably one of the best DK players on the board right now aside from BUM and cOw and maybe TOM. I play alot of marths online and off and I don't see how its that much in his favor. I've had my share of wins and my friend has had his share of wins

 

[Emblem Lord]

Good Marth's don't spam thier kills moves.

Lucas doesn't kill at lower percents. You have to take tippers into accounts. Sorry, but this is just false and I won't even continue talking about it.

I have been to the Lucas boards they say the same things I'm saying. That when Marth gets in that's when Lucas has trouble. He cannot directly go head to head with Marth. He has to defensive which makes him more predictable. Lucas certainly doesn't do much more damage and how in the world is Lucas going to be able to consistently get combos on Marth when Marth outranges him and outpriortizes him?

You keep saying when tight which implies bad spacing...soooooo yeah. Notice how I keep saying that Lucas is outspaced. Normally against a good Marth, Lucas will not have the opportunity to get these hits in since Marth will be spacing at the tip leaving him safe. I'm not saying Lucas will never have an opportunity, but those chance will be few and far in-between.

Lucas hit's don't count for more. This is also false as Marth is overall stronger hit for hit. You are basically saying that Lucas has to predict Marth and play defensive which means....he doesn't control the match nor can he actually take control of the match. He has to play a defensive/reaction game is the vibe I'm getting from your post.

Also I said this before, but overall Marth has a better moveset then Lucas hence he has better options. So overall Marth has more reliable answers to more situations. Also Lucas must always remember his spacing in relation to the edge of the stage. If he does PK fire while close to the edge then he will have his back up against a wall so to speak so it's not like he can spam it all day.

We already agreed that Lucas has good edgeguarding, so no need to go into that.

Nair going over d-tilt is nice, but you would have to expect it. It's not something you could do on reaction since the move happens quickly. But it's still pretty sweet no doubt about that.

This is what I'm getting from your info. If Lucas can predict Marth, stay slippery, be defensive and campy he will win. But the reason why I'm saying Marth has slight advantage is this. He has better options, better moves overall, more range and alot of power. He doesn't need to predict Lucas and much as Lucas needs to preditc him. If he simply attacks and spaces well then he is safe. If Lucas wants to attack him he must take a risk. PK fire isn't hard to deal with honestly. So once you get past that...then what? Lucas must put himself in danger to get in the some damage. Lucas has to play smarter and work a bit harder to win. Which is why it's in Marth's favor.

Also Lucas AAA can be DIed out of pretty easily. Hell, CPU does it consistently.

 

[knightpraetor]

ya, i consistently get the feeling that players on these boards overrate projectiles...dash powershielding is enough to deal with 90% of the projectiles in this game...the rest can be dealt with using airdodges or the like...some projectiles like rob's lasers are too fast to deal with very well, and some are more used for positioning..which makes marth have to work harder...

but against lucas, projectiles should not be factoring in that much even with bsticking. Marth should be playing for space until the lucas runs out of room to keep using it, then he just puts on enough pressure that it is too risky for lucas to use the pk fire. I used to think marth was worse at this game..but as it's grown on me i've begun to realize that a campers game doesn't necessarily mean a projectile user's game. if you can close and then camp with a superior range in their face they have to act at a disadvantage.

but regardless it's hard to judge these things before tournaments become more common. Honestly, just watching all the n00bs talk big is getting annoying..even people i know from melee are starting to think that they are God's next gift to smash..but the reality is you don't learn to space/think overnight by the removal of advanced techs

 

[Emblem Lord]

Concerning DK's match up ratio, give me some solid evidence that I can't refute that is perfectly sound and I will be more then happy to change the match-up ratio like I did for Bowser.

Although to be honest I may end up changing it anyway. 6/4 sounds pretty good to me.

ROB can edgeguard Marth because of his laser, his gyro and he can just fly out there and try to hit him, but Marth can hit him back if he does this.

Also if Marth is very low and is about to use up b you can just time it so your hug the ledge as he comes out so he can't grab the ledge and he will die. But the timing is a bit tricky though. This trick works on alot of characters.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

You're holding your own pretty well emblem, impressive that you are putting intense thought into this game for marth this quickly..and with the large flood of noobs that came in, surely you'll goin to have your hands full much more than you did during the melee boards.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Haha.

I'm honestly not used to this. In the melee boards I more or less had free reign and people respected my opinions. I was never really questioned. But yeah I seem to be holding my own. I'm doing better then I thought anyway. lol.

But hopefully as time goes on some of the other respected members can give me some back up. Sonic Wave and knightpraetor have already been posting lately and now you too.

 

[Ussi]

mind explaining the Pikachu/Marth match up a bit?

 

[thebluedeath1000]

I didn't want to post till I had played marth quite abit and learned how he worked, now I can provide my two cents.

Even with little experience in most matches, its easy to see through people who are wrong from the balantly obvious things from how misinformed some people are..I've been doing well in my area simply because I'm not going into this blind and actually looking at the technical aspects.

Still learning the less popular character matchups though considering there are a few people in NC that actually know what they are doing.

 

[∫unk]

You're holding your own pretty well emblem, impressive that you are putting intense thought into this game for marth this quickly..and with the large flood of noobs that came in, surely you'll goin to have your hands full much more than you did during the melee boards.

Although your post was pretty much worthless to the discussion of the thread, I agree in giving props to Emblem for taking time to play or watch each matchup enough times to understand the various nuances. The game is new and as HugS beautifully put it, "we all suck right now, some just suck less than others". I think it's fair that he's being questioned because Brawl is totally new, there's been only a few tournaments, etc.

After playing a little more, I see that Pit is easier with the right approach... I was using SH fair with good spacing, but I was still getting shield grabbed. It's better to use f tilt, d tilt, and swipes against Pit's faster-than-normal attacks.

I'm not sure if it was me or the opponent's bad DI, but after playing ~25 matches with Wario, he seems really easy to combo.... at one point I got him from 0-62, but I was consistently landing at least 3 consecutive hits on him. Anyway.. because of this Wario is pretty easy imo.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

You're right... But I really don't appreicate you pointing out that my post was useless though unless you are that bored and miserable you must point out such minor things. So I'm going to respond back with something to the latter part of your post.

Anyone is easy to combo that doesn't know how to di properly or put up a good defensive game with their shield or properly spaced attacks.

 

[∫unk]

You're right... But I really don't appreicate you pointing out that my post was useless though unless you are that bored and miserable you must point out such minor things. So I'm going to respond back with something to the latter part of your post.

Anyone is easy to combo that doesn't know how to di properly or put up a good defensive game with their shield or properly spaced attacks.

Touche. Not bored and miserable... just wanted to hit my 25 posts for a promotion :D

Edit: Meh I thought it might have been just Wario was easy to combo, but if not then my bad.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ussi asked for Pikachu vs Marth so here it is.

This is another case of a projectile that isn't that hard to deal with and then once you get past it, the opponent's options aren't as good as Marth's. Marth can jab Thunder Jolt and still has his other ways of dealing with projectiles.

I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but once again, Marth outranges, outprioritizes, and overpowers Pikachu. Pikachu is good, but doesn't have the tools to fight Marth effectively when he gets in. Although Pikachu has some nice tricks like Quick Attack Cancel and can do aerials from there or jump or do other stuff, but this isn't really amazing enough to give him a good match-up vs Marth. QAC is awesome and has alot of mindgame potential but it can get predictable when spammed and the technique itself isn't that deadly since the only attack it really leads to is aerials and Pikachu's aerials aren't that amazing nor do they kill exceptionally well except maybe his Dair.

Marth limits Pikachu's options once he gets in. I visited the Pikachu forums and one poster said that against Marth all Pikachu really has is Thunder Jolt, D-smash, F-smash, QAC, and Thunder when Marth is in the air.

I pretty much agree with this assessment. Pikachu doesn't have alot of options vs Marth.

This match goes to him.

 

[uremog]

in most situations it seems that marth comes down to
1: get past projectiles if applicable
2: control space with superior range and/or speed
3: use this advantage to win in close combat and edgeguard

seeing this, i'm going to ask who marth has the most trouble controling at sword's reach.

snake? with some disjointed hitboxes and good zoning projectiles?

 

[Dark.Pch]

I just have to say on the Peach match up I really dont agree with that. I think
its 6:4 not 8:2.

And I go based on when we were talking about the matchup in the Peach section. I play Marth alot and know alot about the character. So I can see where your coming from. But Also I explained in our Debate things Peach can do against Marth and his strats and mixed up spacing with his F-B, Jabs Dtilt and fair.

No need to argue or anything like that. Just staing my opinion on it and me playing both characters. If you think its 8:2 then ok. I just dont think Peach is that weak against Marth this time around. And i'm not saying this cause I'm a Peach main. I play real strategic with Marth. Well based on what I said Marth can do to Peach and all that stuff when we went on that debate, I know my Marth stuff.

But its your thread sir. I just think its 6:4 Marth, thats all.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean..I play Peach too. She has been my second since Melee and I'm not too impressed with her in Brawl and I don't see how she can compete with him in the match-up.

I might change it to 7:3, but honestly Marth just outclasses her. 6:4 would mean it's almost even, which it isn't.

Also uremog, you covered it beautifully. That is Marth's game in a nutshell and why can he can do so well vs alot of characters and go even with almost all of the rest.

Snake vs Marth is even because as you said, Snake has good range thanks to disjointed hitboxes but Marth does outrange him on the ground and Snake is very easy to harass and gimp during his recovery.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I mean..I play Peach too. She has been my second since Melee and I'm not too impressed with her in Brawl and I don't see how she can compete with him in the match-up.

I might change it to 7:3, but honestly Marth just outclasses her. 6:4 would mean it's almost even, which it isn't.

Well look how they compared Peach and Fox in melee. 6:4 Fox. And Fox ***** Peach bad. But they also base it on what they can do to each other. Also against Falco in melee its 6:4 Peach. Look at what Peach can do to Falco. Yet look at what Falco can do to Peach. And due to the fact she is easy to combo.

And I guess you would need to play a really good Peach that knows the match up well. Idk though. Maybe you have, so cant say anything there. But I fight Marths alot. Cause people still want an easy way to deal with Peach even with all her nerfs and all. I kinda use her like I use my Marth. so they love to go Marth on me. And i win most of these fights with my Peach

I picked up Marth so I could learn what I have to about him. What he can and cant do in match ups i put him in. And tatics, like F-B half way then chill out and wait For my enemy to rool or something. Then punish, good spacing, etc. And when I fight peaches i do it against them and it works. same time i do see things that could have been done If I was in that moment as peach.

Us Peach players get a break this time around from melee Marth, and with her new buffs and speed, This fight is less stressful. I took time to analyze this match up fully cause I know many will still use Marth in tournaments. So I wanna be ready for it you know? All the kicks and tricks.

But just sharing my opinion. I dont agree with 7:3 nether.I still say 6:4 but meh, guess it aint too bad eh? I'll let the future or brawl tournaments decide this for me And once matchups are understood fully around.

 

[Ciel~Image]

Awesome thread you've got here man. Your rationalizations are all very thorough and understandable. Anyway, I main both Marth and ZSS and was wondering if you wouldn't mind talking about that match up a bit. Obviously Marth is heavier than her, outranges her, and has better KO moves, but she's quicker, more mobile, has some pretty excellent special moves, and killer recovery. So I'd like to see why it might be as much as 7:3 in Marth's favor.

 

[Emblem Lord]

O_o

Whoops. >_>

Didn't mean to put 7:3.

Should be 6:4.

I'll still talk about the match-up though if you want.

* Goes to edit the Marth vs ZSS match-up ratio.

 

[Vathris]

Impressive research Emblem,

My limited experience parallels your findings in most cases.

I main Marth myself and surprisingly enough, the most difficult match up I have felt (In frendlies) is against my buddy who mains Luigi, yes Luigi. If you don’t keep up with his timings, Luigi tends to throw off Marth’s count. Although Marth’s move set is overall superior to Luigi, Marth can easily be punished by Luigi’s defensive options.

Summary: Luigi VS Marth = 6/4 Marth … Agreed!

Also, someone made the peculiar argument that they couldn’t believe the OP because the OP didn’t have any Youtube videos. May I just say, that thought is asinine and furthermore very close minded. As in the majority of cases in life, the most talented and skilled usually do not have the public spotlight due to the fact that they spend little to no time PR’ing themselves and more time focusing on doing what they do best.

I’m not saying that Emblem is the Gandhi of SSBB but I am saying that we could learn something from his research.

Take care and best of luck,

Vathris

(yes I lurk)
__________________

 

[Ripple]

Concerning DK's match up ratio, give me some solid evidence that I can't refute that is perfectly sound and I will be more then happy to change the match-up ratio like I did for Bowser.

Although to be honest I may end up changing it anyway. 6/4 sounds pretty good to me.

ROB can edgeguard Marth because of his laser, his gyro and he can just fly out there and try to hit him, but Marth can hit him back if he does this.

Also if Marth is very low and is about to use up b you can just time it so your hug the ledge as he comes out so he can't grab the ledge and he will die. But the timing is a bit tricky though. This trick works on alot of characters.

well, DK can do everything Marth can do but with more power and more range, yes DK has more range than marth. he can live to insane % if you don't tipper him. 2nd heaviest character. I'd say a better recovery. DK has lots of super armor on his attacks.but DK must do bair instead of fair which isn't too different seeing as how none of the marths I play use bair and DK doesn't use fair. they both have very good aerial and ground spacers, DK having one of the best ground ones and a very good aerial one but Marth probably having the best aerial one and a decent ground one. they both have shield breaker combos. The only thing about DK that is that he has a bit more lag on his moves and doesn't have that as good of an approach as marth.

this match-up is even or at least 6-4

 

[TechnoMonster]

DK gets edgeguarded and juggled really hard though :/

I did some experimenting today and Lucas is still 6:4 advantage against Marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

TechnoMonster: K. Like I said I'm not here to change anyone's minds or tell they that they are wrong for thinking what they think. I'm here to share my knowledge on why I think Marth's match-ups are they way they are based on my ratios.

Ripple: Marth has a better air game and a better ground game then DK. Let's get that out of the way. DK does not have better recovery then Marth. I don't know why you would say this. But honestly I have been messing with DK lately and Marth doesn't destroy him or anything. He win's mostly because of his rushdown, his edgeguarding and he simply has better options.

6/4 it is.

 

[Ripple]

I won't argue it any more but I would like to play you online sometime. I would like to record 2 people who are making the match-up threads going at it. My DK vs. your Marth

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dude...you realize..that online actually changes the tier list and character effectiveness right?

Some characters can't do well online becuase of input delay. Marth being one of them.

He sucks *** online.

 

[Ciel~Image]

O_o

Whoops. >_>

Didn't mean to put 7:3.

Should be 6:4.

I'll still talk about the match-up though if you want.

* Goes to edit the Marth vs ZSS match-up ratio.

Sure, if you want to. I'm sure you'll get around to discussing all the matchups eventually, providing this thread sticks around for a while.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think Marth vs ZSS is pretty cut and dry.

They are both fast in running speed and attack speed. ZSS has a projectile and has some nice tricks with it, and her d-smash. Both can set-up for combos since they stun the opponent. Overall though these can be hard to hit with since D-smash has a bit of start-up time and her projectile isn't that great since it's a little slow and needs to be charged to bring out it's full potential. She starts the match with 3 projectiles so when you factor in her long glide toss, this can be annoying for Marth in the beggining, but it's not difficult to deal with.

Also you said it yourself Marth is heavier, better kill moves and he also has better options. Stays in the game thanks to her crazy forward b. That thing is really good. An effective spacing tool that does good damage and it can kill and if you hit with anything, but the sweetspot then her opponent will simply be knocked into the sweet spot taking full damage.

Tough to deal with at first, but it has some start-up time to it, and Marth can take advantage of that to close in. Overall Marth doesn't pwn ZSS or anything. He just has advantage.

 

[k4polo]

I agree to some of these match-ups. Even to the ZSS one. Though I don't pick characters according to match-ups though. I believe skill can out weigh a matchup IMO.

ZSS vs Marth, well ZSS actually outranges marth with her side B,UP B(possibly longest vertical move in game) UP A, and Throw(probably longest throw in game). Marth has a better close up game than ZSS.(Well he has a better close-up game then alot of characters.). Although ZSS is kinda int he unknown category though these days. Not many people know about her in general.

I like to think ZSS is like Samus combine with Marth. Has some range and yet has speed. ZSS has great combo ability as well. Overall I think she do well against Marth. But I will tip it to Marth's favor due to his quick priority close up attacks.

Like Dedede has an advantage over Marth. Does that mean you should stop using Marth against Dedede? IMO ifyou are really good with Marth I say no. Experts find ways around match-up problems. I've seen many upsets before. Like I think Marth is good and will be top tier but he will not be nowhere as dominate as Melee.

 

[k4polo]

Word Same time post.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ignore this.

 

[Eltrotraw]

I've been hearing some things about Lucario vs. Marth, that Lucario's disjointed hitboxes outrange Marth in close range.

I have no idea if this is 100% true, especially since I haven't played a good Lucario player at all, but I figured to toss this out and see what you think about this, EL.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

You made a post about pikachu awhile back emblem lord, have you fought one that can quick attack cancel into his d-smash?

You'll take back what you said about marth out-protizing him and having little options.

Pika loses to marth still due to lack of range in my opinion but prority?

His d-smash his is trump card, its freaking peach's from melee..

I've fought many that aren't afraid to go off stage, thunder off the edge to put a wall up between me and the edge, forcing me to stall..and STILL come after me..

Can't agrue your rating of the matchup though, you're dead on for the most part.

 

[hario.hige]

Just about the Falco recovery business. I'm pretty sure most people are using forward-B as primary recovery, and there's a bunch of options with that instead of up-B which will really only be used if Falco is under the stage. Forward-B is not easy to gimp.