Mario Boards: General Discussion

[Javon89]

Hmmm this is starting to look a little dead, so I'll bring up a topic.

Since the tier list is coming up, where do you guys think Mario is going? My bet is on D-tier.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Mario won't go any higher, none of us have really done anything to show Mario is any more than low tier. Just like last time.

 

[vato_break]

he's gunna go down,less rep this time around..

 

[Javon89]

*sigh* i just hope he isn't under ness of a characters cause when I first saw Mario under Lucas I was suprised but now since I main him, he can kick the **** out of you if you make mistakes.

 

[Matador]

It's hard to tell. The tier list doesn't have any real basis. I used to think they did, but it's becoming clearer and clearer that their decisions are based on conjecture and Ankoku's rankings list, which is okay, but has many flaws when looked at in that context.

Link wins one tourney, and he hops above all of low tier and most of middle. He's ahead of PT for christ's sake.

 

[fromundaman]

What? I thought Reflex repped PT a lot more than ANYONE reps link...

 

[Matador]

What? I thought Reflex repped PT a lot more than ANYONE reps link...

Exactly my point. That one tourney that the Link won happened to have a large attendance...very large.

More attendants = more points.

 

[hippiedude92]

i bet that link was kirinblaze...

lolol jkjkjk <3dan.

when's the new tier list gonna happen anyways?

 

[Javon89]

Most likely December, November or January...

 

[Matt07]

Do any of you guys have Faceook?

I need some friends on there . And let me know if you do, so I know before hand who adds me xD.

 

[Inferno3044]

I hate that the tier list is so rep based. Just because a character is repped more doesnt mean that they are better. jw, does this include doubles as well?

 

[Matt07]

No, it does not display characters in doubles, only for singles.

If a character is repped well, they will be placed higher because of their results in tournaments. Theorycrafting can only get us so far, we have to start proving our 'theories' into 'facts' to be able to show the rest of the community what our character is capable of.

 

[Javon89]

I guess that you can't really do anything about it cause apart of the tier list is to see who's most tourney viable, plus there aren't much Mario mains as it is cause since Luigi and Mario are so closely matched and Luigi has better kill options, better aerials, but less gimping options you might as well use Luigi.

 

[fromundaman]

Exactly my point. That one tourney that the Link won happened to have a large attendance...very large.

More attendants = more points.

I'm sorry... I have trouble thinking of a good enough Link to win a tourny large enough to cause that much of a difference. It's mindblowing. Who was it?

 

[hippiedude92]

lt's not really that, it's just that there's more luigi users than mario users l'm just assuming.

 

[A2ZOMG]

When you realize how mentally taxing and technical Mario is, it's really no wonder why we only have a few players who are able to get respectable results with him.

Despite being labeled as a beginners character by the Dojo, I'd say that Mario is in fact one of the hardest characters in this game to play correctly. He doesn't have anything extremely abuseable, so you constantly have to be alert in order to make the best use of his options. It sucks a lot when you whiff, and not paying attention or making a technical error makes it very easy to whiff with this character.

Pierce and I have analyzed Mario a lot in one conversation, and we both came to the conclusion that Mario is also extremely bait oriented. This in itself increases his learning curve since baiting requires a lot of skill to pull off correctly.

Anyhow, I was bored, and I did research on Jab combo frame advantages. The results were very depressing. It seems like there is like no Jab combo in this game that is safe between hits for the most part, since as long as you have a 6 frame shieldgrab, you'll at minimum trade hits by shieldgrabbing at the right time between hits.

Snake, Mario and Luigi's Jab combos for example have -6 advantages between hits, so when you shieldgrab correctly, you will take 2% and grab them.

Ike's Jab combo gets shieldgrabbed without trading hits if you time it correctly. Oh and by the way, Ike's shieldgrab is 7 frames, so he cannot shieldgrab between hits against -6 advantage Jab combos. Same goes for Ganondorf, Bowser, Donkey Kong, and other people with slow grabs.

Falco and Wolf's Jab combos are also shieldgrabbable between hits without trading. Against Falco's rapid Jabs, you will need an Up-B out of shield however. Fox's rapid Jabs on the other hand I read somewhere that you can shieldgrab between hits.

Against non-disjointed Jabs, you can grab them from pretty far away if you perfectly buffered the shieldgrab due to said character extending their hurtbox.

 

[vato_break]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q9OYkXu5Qs

 

[Matt07]

Nice Vato, I can tell how much you've improved since then. Especially your speed, you seem slow as molasses compared to now, haha.

 

[Calebyte]

Wow, all the Mario nay-saying is a little discouraging. Not saying it isn't true, though. He's a tough character to master.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I wouldn't be discouraged necessarily, all I'm saying is that Mario's true potential has very rarely been seen and appreciated. But it does take a lot of effort and skill to use him in most matchups, so most of us on this forum have a lot more work to do before we can consider ourselves properly representing this character. Boss for example I think has a pretty significant advantage using Mario (or Luigi) just because his spacing and technical skill is so inherently good, that he can really appreciate close up pressure games that you can find on those characters.

As for Mario's potential, for example can do really really well against Falco and the Ice Climbers, who are both considered S tier candidates potentially, or already. They aren't in his favor, but they are winnable, especially if you counterpick intelligently.

And just because I like saying it...Mario outcamps the Ice Climbers. Not the other way around (unless the stage is FD). Fireballs and Cape **** Blizzard. Yeah, fun stuff.

Mario also I believe is easily the best character in low tiers along with Samus, just by virtue of pressure options and having more reliable KO setups (although they have rather weak KO options).

 

[Javon89]

@ above QFT

Mario is a hard character to judge, and most the thought is put into the B-S tier characters since they win the tournaments mostly.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm considering that if Mario suddenly makes it to mid tier on the next tier list, I would quit maining him competitively in this game for good (not that I go to many tournaments anyway).

I'd do this for two reasons. One is because becoming mid tier means he's banned from low tier tournaments, which I think I have a moderately unfair advantage in. And two is because that is all I really wished for ever since he was almost forgotten during Brawl's release.

After that, I would invest more time in conquering Melee, or the next sequel to the Smashbros series.

Actually screw what I just said earlier. I main Mario in EVERY Smash game just because he's that awesome. At that rate, I still have much to look forward to in becoming a better player in this game due to how much I know doesn't get applied to Mario's game.

And still, I never get tired of F-smashing people and watching the look on their face as they get burned to death. You land (or better yet kill) with this attack, and it's the best "in your face!" moment ever.

 

[Javon89]

But gladly that is very unlikely since there are alot more characters to compete with and we aren't repped that much. But I'd hate to see you go.

 

[Inferno3044]

Hey. I need to ask you Mario's something. What is with you guys and saying Mario can't camp?

 

[Matt07]

It's difficult. Many Mario's are "semi-aggresive" and when I match-up comes (R.O.B, Sonic, Peach, etc.) that you have to play defensively, it get's difficult totally switching play-styles, especially one that you might be 'weaker' in.

Also the way Mario's Fireball's travel. They don't travel straight like Luigi's, don't travel as far. How does Mario camp better vs Luigi? Sure, Luigi's may just go in a straight line, but they stop aerial approaches quite well?

 

[:mad:]

Fireballs are not good, you cannot camp with them and win.

 

[Fire!]

Mario simply can't keep good momentum with Fireballs the way he can when he's at short/mid range.

 

[Inferno3044]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Saying that Mario's only way to camp is fireballs is a myth. If a character like Bowser can camp having no projectiles whatsoever, then I think Mario can as well. You just gotta know when it's safe and when it's not. If they are a distance away, then its safe. If they are closing in, use an aerial. When they are stunned, start to combo and rack damage. Mario does better against certain characters than you think (Bowser, Ike, Zelda) because we can outcamp them and do worse against others (Snake) because of they outcamp us. When playing friendlies, I outcamped a Lucario by doing nothing. I just stood there and waited.

What I'm trying to say is that we gotta learn how to play defensively. I'm gonna try to figure out the best way.

 

[Fire!]

~How to Play Mario: Camping - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgcvx764acw

I probably should have factored in Platforms into the video, but I think platform control is more about spacing then camping.

 

[Inferno3044]

~How to Play Mario: Camping - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hgcvx764acw

Thank you.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fireballs go further if you shoot them from higher altitudes, since their horizontal momentum only slows down when they touch the ground.

This is why I fullhop Fireballs.

Also, I have X set to specials, and I find this incredibly useful when fireball camping, because I can buffer fireballs immediately from a jump much more efficiently this way (since I jump with Y). It's a few frames faster to properly buffer stuff, and it makes a huge difference.

 

[Javon89]

Yea who are the best characters to camp against? The only characters I camp against is peach,marth, and short characters.

 

[hippiedude92]

Fireballs are not good, you cannot camp with them and win.

i second this lol.

mario's defensive game isn't hard to touch on, it's just that most of the mario's out there tend to be aggressive naturally and get *****. but i only hate mario's defensive game when it's like high % last game because most people will just cut through fireballs (i.e fk you GaW's turtle)

just be smart lol.

 

[Inferno3044]

Yea who are the best characters to camp against? The only characters I camp against is peach,marth, and short characters.

It would be good to outcamp Bowser, Zelda, Ike, DK, and D3 to name some. Just the fact that they are approaching helps you out.

 

[Javon89]

I see, but you have to be careful against those characters since they're all powerful and the biggest threat is D3.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I camp against everyone...except G&W honestly.

Well in G&W's case, I only fireball if I know it will hit him.

Although I prefer being really aggressive since I'm just too impatient in general.

 

[Inferno3044]

Actually, camping changes many MU ratios we have. It can change Ike, Zelda, and maybe Bowser to a 60:40 advantage and other matches worse if the opponent camps. Those are all opinions, but the fact is that too much aggressiveness can cost you the match. Honestly, the fact that Marth players are generally aggressive makes it so that we can beat them. The fact the Bowser's are very campy and defensive makes it so that their opponent will take the aggressive and get punished. We can definitely outcamp him. My point is that the idea of that Mario can't camp is something that's holding us back.

 

[:mad:]

I disagree. Ike and Bowser still beat Mario, regardless of whether or not we camp.

 

[Calebyte]

Are you kidding me? Ike and Bowser are about even with us, especially Bowser. He's such a huge target.

 

[fromundaman]

Fireballs go further if you shoot them from higher altitudes, since their horizontal momentum only slows down when they touch the ground.

This is why I fullhop Fireballs.

Also, I have X set to specials, and I find this incredibly useful when fireball camping, because I can buffer fireballs immediately from a jump much more efficiently this way (since I jump with Y). It's a few frames faster to properly buffer stuff, and it makes a huge difference.

I second this entire post.