Mario Boards: General Discussion

[Inferno3044]

I'll give one as well to kill some time

-3 -
-2.5 -
-2 -
-1 -
0 -
+1 -
+2 -

Feel free to ask for opinions

 

[HeroMystic]

Seems about right. I'd like to avoid using .5s as much as possible though.

What's up with Snake being -1 though? And I believe Luigi has a slight advantage over Mario.

 

[Matador]

Anyone know the wolf matchup? there's a couple mid level wolf here and it seems fun with mario but, super boring with mk.

I'm pretty decent at it. It's pretty fun too if you can powershield. Getting inside is cake if you can do that.

I needa teach u guys the G&W match-up, lol. It's really not that bad. Good spacing and SDI ***** the pants off G&W.

 

[Sleek Media]

I don't think GW is that bad. The spacing is not intuitive, and you can easily be caught off guard by the lack of lag on his attacks, but if you have enough experience, avoiding these things is easy enough. You are at a disadvantage, but it's nothing like Falco or 3D.

I've only played two decent Wolfs. He's pretty fun to play against. If you have trouble powershielding, short hops are going to be the key to your attack and approach.

 

[Inferno3044]

G&W is fairly hard but its possible. It's also definitely harder than any character I put in -1

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Wolf is only fun to fight against if he doesn't camp you

 

[Matador]

It's never fun for me to chase people down...

That's why MvC3 pisses me off sometimes.

 

[The Nutz of Norcal Deez]

@Vato: I play against Choice almost every weekend, best Wolf imo, and I'll tell ya... he exploits the **** out of receeding F-airs. Bairs are so deadly the way he uses em and he perfectly executes super-armored shields when i try to kill him -___-*

Only thing i can say that gets Wolf alot when he approaches is the Perfect Shield Cancel(PSC) Up-Smash on his aerial moves that comes near you. If all they do is receeding fairs, get him with a fireball on his land lag to whatever approach/mix-up you want. I find it best to mid-range camp him because if he moves ever so slightly towards you, you can get off an F-tilt, some jabs, or D-smash for some good damage. Keep Wolf above you for the free reads since he cant do much but reflector shield or try and get a bair off... Not much else off the top of my head sorry but that's all I got for now. :\

Hope it helps

 

[A2ZOMG]

The matchup chart for Mario...is unbelievably silly.

I don't even get where they pulled out some of the **** they did. It's not even a question of using outdated material, it's just...wrong.

Mario vs Wolf anyhow seems pretty even. Shine is annoying, though it's unsafe and fairly low reward. Comboing him is tricky, but at least nowhere nearly as hard as comboing Falco and somewhat doable as long as you know what percents you can combo him at (don't U-tilt him at 0...please). You can edgeguard him rather effectively with FLUDD, Fireballs, and N-air. F-smash is hard to land on him. Powershielding his B-air on a read helps.

DIing up a lot is good especially if he likes F-smash. This helps you avoid the 2nd hit usually.

 

[The Nutz of Norcal Deez]

Sky` told me that the Wario vs Mario MU is even. Can someone tell how this can be true?

Boss: apparently Sky` played you and he felt afterwards that this MU is 50:50, discuss the mario's side of this PLEASE. Sky` has yet to tell me why he feels this way when "the perfect Dair" just seems to beat me everytime T-T

 

[HeroMystic]

Shaya was so kind to explain to the bizzare MK placement in Mario's MU chart.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12269109&postcount=279

The explanation can also give us insight on why the MU chart in general is so sloppy.

@Nutz: News to me. The Mario boards always said 60:40 Wario, though it's a little weird on why. Mario can basically spam the hell outta B-air to keep Wario away because it beats everything except his F-air, but Wario hits so hard and he's so heavy that the margin of error for Mario is low, so basically one screw up could cost him largely, especially if he takes a D-air hit.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sky` told me that the Wario vs Mario MU is even. Can someone tell how this can be true?

Boss: apparently Sky` played you and he felt afterwards that this MU is 50:50, discuss the mario's side of this PLEASE. Sky` has yet to tell me why he feels this way when "the perfect Dair" just seems to beat me everytime T-T

I dunno, I think Mario vs Wario is definitely closer than 60/40 Wario. Maybe 55/45 Wario overall.

Wario however does actually outright LOSE to Mario on Brinstar though from my experience. You just control the stage far better than he does, and the fact the blastzones are smaller means you don't actually have to worry about doing anything fancy to kill him when killing him with any aerial, B-throw, and other stuff becomes totally viable. Furthermore the lava rises imo hurt Wario more than they hurt Mario, especially since Mario can get a lot more out of controlling the top platform than Wario can.

To be honest, I consider Wario the complete opposite of how Mario has to approach most matchups. Wario is very easy for Mario to do massive damage to given Mario's superior spacing and ground options, and he's also a fairly easy character for Mario to combo given his weight class and fairly low fall acceleration. The difficulty in this matchup is simply setting up the kill. I feel ultimately if the stage is not Brinstar, you have to legitimately outplay Wario to land a kill move (gimping him counts as well. N-airing him out of his recovery *****...if he's in the position for that). At the same time though Wario for the most part has to legitimately outplay Mario to actually kill him as well. Just he kills significantly earlier than Mario though, and it's hard for Mario to punish Wario's F-smash on block.

At any rate though Mario is definitely REALLY REALLY GOOD against Wario. Like, if you space well and know how to use tilts effectively, you'll do a TON more damage to Wario than he can do back to you. Just you have to work for landing the kill move though.

I have a few extra replays of me playing this matchup that I think really are a good demonstration of how a Mario can win against Wario convincingly. I just need to find a good time to upload them...

 

[Jimmyfosho]

GW is only difficult on CPs imo.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Up-B against Wario.

EDIT: As for questions for my list.

Mario: Mario wasn't included because he's a ****ing broken character, ban Mario.

Lucario: I hate Lucario, I hate fighting against Lucario, it's stupid and I never want to do it again.

Sheik: Same as above.

I'm surprised nobody questioned the 50:50 matchup with Ice Climbers, because that's totally what it is.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mario being -2 with MK is not the actual problem as the match-up is somewhere between -2 and -3. It's more that his MK ratio doesn't make sense when you compare it to PT, Peach and Wolf.

For Mario I'd say:

-2 or -3
-3
-1 or -2
-2 or -3
-1
-1 or -2
0 or -1
heavily debated but I think it's 0 or +1
0
-2
-1
0
-1
-1
+1
+1
0
0 or +1
-1

Most of Mario's match-ups are heavily debated and everybody has a different opinion on his worst match-up but personally I don't think it's MK. Mario players generally have a very different opinions on his match-ups but I'm pretty sure I know his match-ups against other Low Tiers the best as I play Mario specifically for that meta game.

My opinion on which match-ups are wrong @ chart. The rest I probably agree with [or didn't look close enough but I doubt that].

 

[Matt07]

How is MK harder than DDD?

What can we do vs DDD to even win?

 

[HeroMystic]

Snake being -3 is kinda silly.

@Matt: DDD used to be the hardest until the Marios realized the infinite doesn't mean a damn thing.

 

[Matador]

We have alot of legit tools vs D3. Some of his stuff is just too goodz vs Mario, but it's not an impossible match-up.

Mario vs MK is just constantly uphill...

But yeah...they're close for Mario's worst. I'd say MK though.

 

[Inferno3044]

To me Mario's worst MUs are MK, Marth, and Dedede. The most annoying thing about Marth and MK is that not only are they hard, but there are really no stages to help you out. Dedede is also stupid because it's so easy for him to grab you, but it's doable on Brinstar and BF (honestly I wouldn't wanna fight him on any other stage). Falco also has quite a few doable stages.

 

[Omari]

To me Mario's worst MUs are MK, Marth, and Dedede. The most annoying thing about Marth and MK is that not only are they hard, but there are really no stages to help you out. Dedede is also stupid because it's so easy for him to grab you, but it's doable on Brinstar and BF (honestly I wouldn't wanna fight him on any other stage). Falco also has quite a few doable stages.

-Okay (your opinion) but reasonable sir.
-Final Destination, Pichochat & Battle Field regarding MK, Marth requires room to bait/get in/wait & DeDeDe requires odd terrain such as Yoshi's Island, Brinstar or even Frigate.
-What? 1. D3 has to do work for those grab(s). 2. It becomes easy (simple) to grab a Mario if that Mario's free. 3. If you're not repetitive with your style, there's not that much a problem in this aspect.
-Falco's not that bad other than the fact that he has a high handicap on you (probably around +90%/potential kill regarding high level play).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Gheb, I just find your matchup opinions on G&W, ROB, Bowser, and Lucas particularly silly. G&W and ROB are clearly harder matchups than Lucas and Bowser.

Bowser in particular I believe we win around +1 or 2 against in particular. Aside from some silly things Mario can do to his recovery and comboing him, Bowser is just terrible and realistically should never get back on his feet once he's offstage and over 100%.

 

[2fast]

A2Z, gheb's opinions could come from the european metagame which is completely different from the U.S. metagame.

 

[Inferno3044]

-Okay (your opinion) but reasonable sir.
-Final Destination, Pichochat & Battle Field regarding MK, Marth requires room to bait/get in/wait & DeDeDe requires odd terrain such as Yoshi's Island, Brinstar or even Frigate.
-What? 1. D3 has to do work for those grab(s). 2. It becomes easy (simple) to grab a Mario if that Mario's free. 3. If you're not repetitive with your style, there's not that much a problem in this aspect.
-Falco's not that bad other than the fact that he has a high handicap on you (probably around +90%/potential kill regarding high level play).

With MK and Marth, yeah you can take them to those stages, but Mario doesn't really benefit much from them. At least vs. D3 and Falco there are good CP stages.

With D3, I might over exaggerated some but my point is that you will probably get grabbed a few times and it's much easier for him to grab us than the other way around. It's also annoying and it might lead into Bdacus (not sure if it does vs. Mario). It's still a bad MU.

I don't think Falco is that bad.

 

[Inferno3044]

I'll give one as well to kill some time

-3 -
-2 -
-1 -
0 -
+1 -
+2 -

Feel free to ask for opinions

Making a slight edit. Dedede is now -3, Falco is -2, and Wolf is -1.

This list is perfect

 

[vato_break]

I'm not to sure on this but, i think pictochat is a really good Counterpick, so much room to camp!

Also inferno, on your list i feel that peach, lucario, and olimar are disadvantageous matchups but, maybe i'm just bad vs. those characters..

 

[Inferno3044]

Well anything in the 55:45 range I put in 0. Peach and Olimar are both 45:55 imo and Lucario is even, maybe 45:55. If you want them in +/- 1 I could easily change to make it appropriate

 

[Famous]

Snake should be higher...Only Kirby I use to had a problem with was chu...Wario should definately be lower...(found a new technique on Wario-only) ZSS should definately be 3rd right behind snake..When that bich is played at top lvl, she is mad annoying...-Looks at D-Torr-

 

[SKidd]

What is this new technique you speak of?

 

[Coolwhip]

Yeah famous, tell us....

 

[Omari]

You can't just be telling your secrets all willy-nilly.

Spoiler

They wouldn't be secrets anymore now would they?

?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Also inferno, on your list i feel that peach, lucario, and olimar are disadvantageous matchups but, maybe i'm just bad vs. those characters..

Peach is a slight disadvantage. Olimar is an even more slight disadvantage. Lucario is even at worst, but very unfun to play against.

Specifically against Lucario, you just really can't commit to anything dumb against him. You just have to be constantly playing with good reactions and picking conservative options. He can only punish you hard if you let him, but he has very few tools for actually getting in on you if you don't let him, like his best option against good zoning is forward roll lol. On the other hand when you DO get in on Lucario, his options for getting you off kinda suck. Just like, Mario definitely controls the pace better, but for the most part you can only chip at him, while all Lucario wants to do is land random hugely rewarding moves that honestly shouldn't be hitting you, but probably will when you screw up.

Lucario is hard to juggle, although your Jab cancels on him are really really legit (sweetspot both Jabs to reverse U-smash lol). He's also not hard to edgeguard either. FLUDD, edgehogging, and well spaced B-airs are enough to make recovering for him a chore.

Anyhow you should talk to KirinBlaze if you want to get better at that matchup. He's pretty good against Lucario.

 

[Matt07]

Snake being -3 is kinda silly.

@Matt: DDD used to be the hardest until the Marios realized the infinite doesn't mean a damn thing.

Yea the infinite isn't what's so bad, it's everything else that makes it stupid.

1) Chaingrabbing, can give roughly 10-30% depending on where you are.
2) He can Shield Grab pretty much anything we do. D-air, and a perfectly spaced b-air are our only options.
3) He can't die, he at least lives up to 170% each stock, while we die roughly at 110% because of his u-tilt.
4) He outranges us on the ground, f-tilt is another tool he has to keep us out, and he gets free damage on us.
5) B-air out-prioritizes us in the air, not to mention he also has f-air. Should be choose to approach that way.
6) Fireballs are pretty much the saving grace of this match-up just to make him approach us, which we want. However, it requires us them intelligently, and they don't give enough damage, or knockback.

Sorry if I seem like I'm making Dedede Godly, or lashing out at you Hero (which I'm not.) I just feel this match-up is a LOT worse than MK.

 

[Kanzaki]

Don't forget his utilt has super armor... and if we're gonna camp with fireballs he's gonna camp with waddle dee's.

 

[Matt07]

Don't forget his utilt has super armor... and if we're gonna camp with fireballs he's gonna camp with waddle dee's.

OMG his u-tilt as Super Armour...:/. Could he be any better?

And that too, however I feel Waddle Dee's aren't a huge benefit to him in this match-up, but eh.

 

[SKidd]

Famous... Tell me.




I am trustworthy =D








Tell Omari, too.

 

[2fast]

Famous... Tell me.




I am trustworthy =D








Tell Omari, too.

What about 2fast .

 

[A2ZOMG]

Don't forget his utilt has super armor... and if we're gonna camp with fireballs he's gonna camp with waddle dee's.

His U-tilt is actually invincible during the active frames. And you CAN cape Waddle Dees afaik. Caping back Gordos is also funny.

I dunno, if you're playing to time him out, DDD isn't quite that bad for Mario to deal with if the stage is not FD. In the event you ever get a stock lead against him, then it's basically set for Mario. Not getting killed by DDD isn't too hard as long as you don't let him gimp you or land U-tilt or his slow Smashes.

Though yeah, it's a stupid matchup and you're probably not going to get that far against him if he camps on a lead. Which is likely to happen for making the smallest mistake.

 

[vato_break]

idk famous kept losing to some ike at apex...and i kept beating this ike

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

If you guys are having trouble with matchups you really need to use more Up-B. Unless you are having trouble with the ICs matchup. In that case you just need to learn to not get grabbed, which is really easy with Mario.

I'm not reading through all that bull**** though.

 

[vato_break]

i need help with wolf, i get ***** by the bairs and killing him is *** D: