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Won't lie I'm leaving Japan on Monday and I don't have much motivation to spend a lot of time on the comp reading epic long posts and creating epic long posts in response. I'd much rather spend that time with my new friends here that I might not ever see again. ;_;
Personally since this game is in objectively identifiable LYLO, I personally feel like complete removal of deadline is in order (or at least an extension) but that's just me, and people here love to ****ride deadlines for really no good reason here at SWF so that might fall upon deaf ears.
Anyway, I've gotten the gist of what's being exchanged here and I think there are a few key issues that are core to this Sir Bed v. Adum choice. Answers to these questions will show who the true scum is.
How is the relative timing of OS's mafia claim relative to Sir Beds cop claim related to Adum's behavior and final decision on D5?
What is the motive for Sir Bed to retract a cop claim in LYLO?
Why does Sir Bed try to marginalize the seriousness that is fake claiming VT and then retracting the claim for a Doc claim in LYLO, as if it is just "townie recklessness", as if to assert that you should be clearing people off of pissant **** like that in LYLO?
Does doctor and jailer make sense in a game with an abductor, as opposed to a standard SK, considering the likelihood that a doc usually doesn't protect against abductions?
How exactly does that fact that my two largest attacks when I entered the game (adum and Vocal), didn't take off equally well as wagons, some how implicate that I was allegedly trying to make my case on adum weaker than my Vocal case? Why would Sir Bed simply omit the very simple reality in his analysis, that simply at that time Vocal was a more popular target, and obviously as a result his wagon received more attention and took off better? Why does Sir Bed try to misrepresent my case on adum as just a "safe, distancing" case when in reality it was just as strong as my vocal case, and I actually received a lot of a attention and criticism (notably from OS), for attacking Adum for those reasons.
Basically why is Sir Bed asserting that the ends explain alleged initial motives when the reasons for why the wagons ended up like they did are just simply related to other player's opinions at the time?
People should think about these major issues before they make any decision, myself included.
You're right, I never responded to it, I missed it way back then, but it's easy to respond to now.
Recklessness is a town-tell, there are exceptions, but in general scum doesn't like drawing attention to themselves. Joining wagons is a good way to stay under the radar, but STARTING them isn't.
So I'm town because I was "reckless" enough to vote "early" in the Day toDay? And OS was town too? (hurr hurr exceptions)
That's just a terrible WIFOM argument. You realize it could have been entirely possible Swiss was playing up to that tell if he were scum, right?
And you were WAY too convinced of his townieness when you were using a tell this weak. You knew he was town.
I've been saying you need to die since D2 dude, that's not light pressure. I don't need to constantly be asking you stuff in order to have a committed stance on you.
No, I mean, where were the questions directed at me all Day Day 2? Too busy focusing on the completely inactive Pierre? Partway through D2 I just suddenly showed up on your scumlist for meta reasons and little else, and you voted me over Pierre when he was being completely useless and was someone you consistently pressured over the course of the game.
Because you're choosing to interpret something fundamentally neutral as inherently scummy. FF's case was definitely scummy, it lacked any semblance of actual content and could've easily been opportunism based on the fact that I was in hot water last game day.
For not-mafia cred, when FF flips scum and you were on his wagon, obviously? And again, I don't think you were trying to get him lynched, or you wouldn't have switched over to Vocal so easily. There was also an abductor, and the survival of the mafia would be more important than just having mafia cred, so again, I don't think either of you were truly attempting to lynch each other.
Arguments about how a new player would act mentally playing a role like the abductor are just as subjective and safe as using meta because there's no real data on this, it's just what "makes sense" to the players, and any behavior out of the ordinary can be used.
Safe, yes; convincing? That's different. A case revolving around the "logical" tendencies of a particular role is much more likely to get support than one based around meta on a certain player; when was the last time someone said "hey, player X is playing different from how he played in game Y, let's lynch him", and then the lynch of that player happens solely on the back of that meta? I'm guessing not recently.
FF could reasonably push both cases in tandem, knowing that one case was more likely to be chosen than the other (especially since Vocal was freaking out a bit D3), and if it looked like people would start to turn to lynching FF, adum could pull back on the reigns and say eh was wrong. That's what makes pushing lynches based on meta so bad; it's very easy for the pushers to say "oops, I was wrong", back off, and then not really get much flak for it since they could have simply made a mistake.
Look at my record of metaing OS. You were in bioware, you remember how confident I was in my read of OS. Also read BIM 2, I pegged him as a bomb easy. I can point to others, as well as games that I haven't played in and just hit OS up and said, "hey dude, you [insert proper alignment here]", with occasionally realizing what role he was.
I understand how he thinks ridiculously well, because of that I'm very confident in my ability to meta him.
That's not my point at all. I'm saying that FF's push for you (I accidentally said "you" instead of "FF", sorry if that confused you) was completely safe and almost guaranteed to fail, just like Swiss' push for OS was.
Firstly, you're totally wrong. 2-1-9 is VERY protown, so interference with pro-town roles is probably the reason why there'd be a jailer in the first place.
As for roleblockers... no, check out bioware again, that was a major topic of discussion (turned out I effectively couldn't).
Which assumes OS would abduct you, considering you were the most suspicious player that day... that's pretty ridiculous. It would have been either me or FF, and OS was setting up for his mafia claim, he was much more likely to be mafia, so OS picked him.
OS WIFOM'd it up by abducting FF over you when you could read him better...why couldn't he have WIFOMed it up then? Abducting me would leave FF in an awkward place, since he was the only one who hadn't been investigated by me (supposedly >.>) and had said something on the lines of "When you investigate me and see I'm town, we can move on from this". If you 2 weren't mafia, it could have ended very badly.
Oh, and having mafia in lylo would be pretty irrelevant (what are they gonna do, CC him?), unless they were BOTH mafia. If OS didn't think you and adum were mafia (and apparently he didn't ) he might have left you two in lylo.
You had good breadcrumbs? Why would you saying I'm innocent make me believe your copclaim if I were mafia? Since we're all claimed up and there are no cops, I couldn't have been a godfather.
1, because inexplicably continuing the lynch on someone who claimed cop when they very likely are the cop (because like you said, I had good breadcrumbs) would lead to bad things come the next day when you have to explain why you lynched someone with a good claim.
2, because at that point, we didn't know all the roles. There could have been a re-director, a role that caused player's actions to be messed around, my role only getting guilty on indys (as you said D5); even though you knew my result was impossible, you couldn't preclude the possibility of my claim being right, but my result simply being wrong. Getting an innocent on FF was probably too much, though, which is why you didn't kill me.
Dude, OS poked far worse holes in your argument then you did in the reverse. Reread the day, your claim of me as a godfather prior to when you said you investigated me was crushing for example.
I already told you I wasn't being serious on D5. >.> You and OS have both been taking the obviously non-serious things I do as scummy, and I have no idea why.
Easy, town cred. You think it would grant you a lot more credibility for you to reverse your claim now rather then reverse it as a perceived reaction to the mile wide holes poked in your story.
Town doesn't care about how townie their actions are percieved, just how townie they are.
Why? How does reversing it now make me more likely to be scum than doing it yesterDay? Why is making a bad move that has plenty of risk and little potential reward for town make me more townie than make a good move that has little risk and lots of potential reward for town?
Ummm...what's the difference between the bolded? Townie's want their actions to be perceived as town just as much as scum do. What's the difference between being townie and having your actions perceived as town, when both of those things can only be seen from someone perceiving actions?
Check your iso, so much scummyness. There's a reason why everyone is willing to lynch you today.
Oh no, I'm not arguing that. If OS came out D5 saying "yo I'm mafia, here's me being extremely mafia, here's my role and proof of me doing things with it", and was incredibly convincing with all of that, I wouldn't blame you for voting me.
The key point being here that he didn't.
He claimed he was mafia, offered no role, offered VERY little reasoning as to why he was scum, gave us no useful information on his faction, and refused to say why he didn't claim town, when there was absolutely no need for him to claim mafia when he was doing so very little in the regard to convince us that he was mafia at all.
His claim wasn't ludicrous because he claimed mafia.
It was ludicrous because he didn't explain why he did it.
And it took you way too long to "figure that out".
Cause unlike you, I have another scum to find, I don't want you dead until as late in the day as possible.
OS voted yesterday because he was sure that him voting you would win him the game, seems that you are too, only yesterday you were still unsure enough to not vote for me in spite of spending all that time wailing about how you were gonna lose when I got back.
Why is your behavior so different now? Because there's a fundamental difference here, you don't require additional information to be sure of whose scum.
Here's adum putting some mega-weak distance on Pierre. Being suspicious about a person before they even post any content, or before the game is really out of RVS? lolok
As far as ruling town, I'm pretty good as scum lol, LOTR mafia I was pretty much ruling town and I had summoner and Vrael as scummates (but, comp issues...). Played a near perfect game in BIM 2 and played pretty **** good as scum in Square Enix mafia on MS which was my first game as scum (being a hunter in CT doesn't count), so yea I could, but I don't think I need OS to rule town. A strong scum-buddy always helps though and OS is pretty strong as scum (hence why he usually needs to be watched carefully).
Pierre seems pretty good, he's gonna be useful, if he's not scum, he's definitely in my sights atm.
adum avoiding connections and avoiding the spotlight (scum doens't want to look obvtown because it gets awkward when they aren't killed/they get too much attention and slip up).
Also note how he's being protective of Pierre (this is another common theme ).
Frankly, I should've been bottom of the barrel then, I only had 9 posts, so frankly just about anyone seemed a better pick then me.
Measuring at face value, Swiss was probably the best choice by a wide margin given your vibes for OS and DanGR. I guess Pierre was a consistent choice given the time and your choice of me.
Implies that he thinks Pierre is town when he's been pressuring him for the rest of the game.
@OS: I said DanGR, I get a slight noobtown read from him. X1 needs to be watched closely.
As far as lynch, I'd prefer to give the recent replacements a chance to get active.
Gonna hold off a bit on the answer to this cause I wanna check some meta on this, but I half-way wanna say pierre if he doesn't get his *** in gear soon.
Sir Bed, his play reminds me a lot of his play in bioware, nearly non-existant, not saying much that's useful (but stuff that seems useful), I don't like him at all.
Vote: Sir bed
I'm down to lynch him, Pierre, or Dastrn today I think, preferably sir bed.
1st, my play was significantly different from how I played in Bioware (for one, I actually gave stances on people ).
2nd, note that he's going after the person he's said one thing to, rather than the person he's been pressuring all game and has been way less useful than I was.
3rd, note he threw his scumbuddy in between a pair of townies, one of which basically claimed a PR.
Again, here's something I noticed on my reread of D4: adum avoiding the spotlight and pushing others away. I took it as an abductor tell at the time, but it easily works as scum as well.
Note here that adum is denying his connections with FF on the grounds that they are WIFOM, yet endorses the "pattern" finding part of scum hunting. There's a pretty clear pattern you're making here, adum: pressure Pierre/FF, come close to lynching him at multiple points, then never following up and going for other people. Why is that not scummy, again?
adum, you said you would be risking a lot when you voted FF; but in the same post, you leave yourself the option of switching over to me, who almost got lynched yesterday and who other people think is scum. That's pretty damm safe.
And then there's his ISO on me
where I'm apparently super scummy
except it's all about how i'm the abdcutor
lol.
I'll respond to everything that isn't about me being the abductor.
I already explained why I was questioning the NK, both from a "I'm new" standpoint (I didn't understand why they killed BSL, since I'd generally only seen scum go after strong players), and from a "I'm VT and want to die" standpoint (I wanted to know why scum NKed BSL over me). If you're just going to go through the game and point out "classic scum/town tells", you've already lost.
Wagon jumping on a case with absolutely no substance.
No real reasoning to the role assignment either, the only thing it screams is somebody trying to hard to say "no, I'm not the abductor" especially cause there was no reason to believe a godfather was in this game.
There was no reason because IT WAS A JOKE. I mean, really? Why the hell would I make called shots on a player's role? I wasn't being serious, I told you this D5 when you and OS kept bringing that thing up.
Why so happy about the no lynch? Granted he survived, but a townie should have mixed feelings at best on this.
Really, regardless of what faction you are, you should always be happy that you didn't get lynched (unless you have a role that wants you to).
Conclusion: Sir Bedevere is almost definably scum and leans very strongly on the abductor end. His actions are extremely scummy, especially the wagon jumping and his jumping on just about everyone's wagons and attempting to leave as many lynches as possible open.
Roxy: I started it. I didn't really have any other wagons I wanted to join/make at the time.
OS: Voting for someone based on gut reads is not something you can just "jump on", and look how much attention I got for it. Again, he was my only target.
Pierre/adum: Pierre I only wanted to kill if it was a modkill, otherwise wasting a lynch would be pointless. I wanted to lynch you because I thought your buddying of Swiss was scummy. D2 I was on 2 wagons total.
Vocal: I basically only had my vote on Vocal for the entire Day (I think), and never really got around to making other stances, aside from me thinking adum was town and FF was scummy (but I never pushed it).
everything else was abductor stuff
I had my vote on 5 people, all at various times, and the only time I was open to more than one lynch at a time was D2, when I wanted to lynch Pierre/adum. 2 of the wagons adum and I were both on (adum was basically on the Vocal wagon, he thought he was flailing). The other 3 were consistent with the reads I had on D2 (that everyone except OS/FF/adum was town).
The wagon hopping was minimal and not indicative of scumminess.
I've had THREE lynches open since near the start of the game. They were you, FF, and OS. I've pretty much been consistent with who I thought was scum since then.
yeah...that's pretty much his non-abductor case on me
Note how much more detail FF's ISO has (and no that's not sarcasm, click the link and read it, there's WAY more talk of adum connecting him to other people than mine). It could have been adum/FF were expecting to lynch Bed the Abductor and lead into either an X1 mislynch for the game or an FF bus to make adum look town. Really, it didn't even look like he was trying to show that FF was the abdcutor, which works both as a deterrent to lynch him and as a great way to distance your scumbuddy.
The tl;dr of my ISO is, if you think the connections between FF and adum are scummy, as I do, then there's no reason your vote shouldn't be on adum or FF. They've been bumping elbows since D1 and there's no other players they've paid more attention to than themselves. It's clear scum distancing at its finest.
---
I'll get around to ISOing FF later (need to focus on other games/it won't take long, he hasn't posted too much), as well as responding to some of the things in his recent post.
Since adum hasn't been alpha-striked, and everyone has had a reasonable chance to post alongside one another, there is now 100% guaranteed scum between me and adum. Our lynch choice should only be between him and me.
When a townie votes another townie in lylo (i.e. that townie made an incorrect read on that townie in thinking they were scum), and the scumteam are able to all vote for the person the townie has a vote on all at once, resulting in that person's lynch and a win for mafia (since mafia then become half the town's population and, barring some sort of killing role, they automatically win).
Because no one piled on their votes on adum and there's been ample time for each player to coordinate schedules for an alpha-strike, there must be scum between me and adum, because otherwise, the scum team would have voted adum and won.
Except it's not a weak argument, and framing it as such just makes you look worse. Swiss is too experienced a scum to make such an elementary mistake, hence he was town using the basic attack manuever vote-hopping.
And far stronger players then you use townie recklessness as as a reason to believe somebody's town at a far higher level. Look at this game, specifically rhinox and incognito. EMP proposed a massclaim, which is inherently a great deal scummier then starting wagons a lot.
Frankly, what's scummy about starting wagons a lot? Explain this to me.
Also, you ENTIRELY forget, there was still an abductor on the loose. Even assuming I was mafia, what reason would I have to clear swiss unless I believed he was town? I wouldn't know ANYBODY was town for sure until toDay as mafia.
No, I mean, where were the questions directed at me all Day Day 2? Too busy focusing on the completely inactive Pierre? Partway through D2 I just suddenly showed up on your scumlist for meta reasons and little else, and you voted me over Pierre when he was being completely useless and was someone you consistently pressured over the course of the game.
I voted you over pierre cause Pierre was a nullread, he's an inactive and that's what gave me his read, but scum read takes priority over null.
Inactives need to be pressured into giving you a read, scum reads need to be lynched.
And I'm sorry that you dislike meta, but the reality is meta is used near universally in the game. You arguing that using meta is scummy essentially, but that again gives you an open invitation to start cases on just about everyone.
I see somebody do something as scum, they continue doing it. That suggests scum. Plus, it forces a person I think is scummy to defend themselves, if they are scum, usually this results in more scumslips.
By itself, OK fine, it could have been just a bad case made by a scummy player on a random townie.
But your connections with FF run deep, and this is part of a pattern I've seen in your posts.
And what in our patterns SHOWS that it was actually distancing as opposed just "I thought he was scum" and kept him as a target.
For not-mafia cred, when FF flips scum and you were on his wagon, obviously? And again, I don't think you were trying to get him lynched, or you wouldn't have switched over to Vocal so easily. There was also an abductor, and the survival of the mafia would be more important than just having mafia cred, so again, I don't think either of you were truly attempting to lynch each other.
I NEVER switched to the vocal bandwagon from my attempted bandwagon on FF.
As far as not-mafia cred, you can use that for any scum lynch, but the vast majority of time the extra town-cred doesn't outweigh the extra day you need. Especially considering that bussing leaves signs that townies can pick up, especially when mafia starts the wagon.
So, unless you have proof, you've just given yourself licence to push anyone mafia lynch as bussing. Where's the evidence that this was a bus.
I said I'd hammer if it was that or a no lynch, and it was definitely possible vocal was flailing scum cause a lot of what he said was scummy.
I never placed my vote on vocal, never actually agreed that Vocal was scum, and never endorsed the wagon.
What I did was realize that a wagon failed to take off, I looked at alternatives to make sure there was a lynch, and then pushed him again next game day.
Safe, yes; convincing? That's different. A case revolving around the "logical" tendencies of a particular role is much more likely to get support than one based around meta on a certain player; when was the last time someone said "hey, player X is playing different from how he played in game Y, let's lynch him", and then the lynch of that player happens solely on the back of that meta? I'm guessing not recently.
FF could reasonably push both cases in tandem, knowing that one case was more likely to be chosen than the other (especially since Vocal was freaking out a bit D3), and if it looked like people would start to turn to lynching FF, adum could pull back on the reigns and say eh was wrong. That's what makes pushing lynches based on meta so bad; it's very easy for the pushers to say "oops, I was wrong", back off, and then not really get much flak for it since they could have simply made a mistake.
Which is again, you pushing a conspiratorial spin on something without proving it.
Pulling back on a meta case is no less easy then on a case based on the logical tendencies of a role or any other form of content. Unless you give a good reason why you're pulling back your case, it looks particularly scummy because you're saying that it's cause you know how a player thinks.
Also... why are you misrepresenting so many things?
My case on FF was based on how vacuous and scummy his case on me was, I didn't even touch on meta.
That's not my point at all. I'm saying that FF's push for you (I accidentally said "you" instead of "FF", sorry if that confused you) was completely safe and almost guaranteed to fail, just like Swiss' push for OS was.
I was a primary lynch target, people were looking for excuses to lynch me, if I responded badly or didn't turn it on it's head, odds were I would've gotten lynched.
And why was Swiss' push for OS guaranteed to fail? It got him to l-1.
NO! Not "if I say so", you at the very least should be able to admit that you were wrong on this point.
IIRC I provided a source for this well before by pointing to either the large vs. small thread (which linked to a post by hoopla explaining the various balances in great depth, she's one of the premiere mafiascum game designers btw) or I linked directly to the post in question on mafiascum. Either way I'll link.
Bioware is very easy to find again.
I provided sources and evidence, you provide pure theories with no evidence whatsoever. How like the entire rest of your case.
Your case reads much more like you trying to use any semantic edge to prove you're right them a case you actually believe, hence why you won't even admit points that are STARING YOU IN THE FACE.
And no, "if you say so" is not and admission, it's a wiggle phrase to drop a point you're obviously losing without losing face.
OS WIFOM'd it up by abducting FF over you when you could read him better...why couldn't he have WIFOMed it up then? Abducting me would leave FF in an awkward place, since he was the only one who hadn't been investigated by me (supposedly >.>) and had said something on the lines of "When you investigate me and see I'm town, we can move on from this". If you 2 weren't mafia, it could have ended very badly.
Oh, and having mafia in lylo would be pretty irrelevant (what are they gonna do, CC him?), unless they were BOTH mafia. If OS didn't think you and adum were mafia (and apparently he didn't ) he might have left you two in lylo.
It's certainly possible he would've, but odds were we would've lost at least one mafia if it was between me, you, and FF. Why would I take that risk?
1, because inexplicably continuing the lynch on someone who claimed cop when they very likely are the cop (because like you said, I had good breadcrumbs) would lead to bad things come the next day when you have to explain why you lynched someone with a good claim.
Except I could've just backread and looked at the massive holes in your claim.
My saying that you have good breadcrumbs meant I wasn't gonna push for your lynch at the time, it didn't bind me when you claimed. I could've said, "your pattern doesn't match up with a cop, vote sir bed" and been done with you.
Or claimed miller which is actually relatively common in copless games because it provides both advantages and disadvantages to town which seems to fit the overall theme of most of this game. The advantage obviously being that you can catch fakeclaiming cops with it.
Why didn't I do that if I were mafia? Part of it had to be that your claim made sense.
2, because at that point, we didn't know all the roles. There could have been a re-director, a role that caused player's actions to be messed around, my role only getting guilty on indys (as you said D5); even though you knew my result was impossible, you couldn't preclude the possibility of my claim being right, but my result simply being wrong. Getting an innocent on FF was probably too much, though, which is why you didn't kill me.
Again, lies. I never said that you could get guilty only on indies, just that you might get guilty on both. Instead I said that FF might be a godfather, then your results would make sense.
And you didn't get an innocent on FF until the next day, why would that have stopped me from hammering when I was in a good position to do so?
JOKE
IT WAS A JOKE
I already told you I wasn't being serious on D5. >.> You and OS have both been taking the obviously non-serious things I do as scummy, and I have no idea why.
1. Because it was way outside of your pattern (since it was the only non-serious thing you did.
2. Because based on context it didn't seem like a joke at all, so quite frankly I don't believe you. You can claim ANYTHING is a joke and try to get a pass for it.
Why? How does reversing it now make me more likely to be scum than doing it yesterDay? Why is making a bad move that has plenty of risk and little potential reward for town make me more townie than make a good move that has little risk and lots of potential reward for town?
Ummm...what's the difference between the bolded? Townie's want their actions to be perceived as town just as much as scum do. What's the difference between being townie and having your actions perceived as town, when both of those things can only be seen from someone perceiving actions?
Simple, townies don't care how their actions are PERCEIVED, they just wanna do things that help their faction win. If they are actually very pro-town their actions should be perceived as such yes, and if they aren't, they should be able to point to a pro-town motivation under pressure, beyond avoiding the noose of course.
That's one of the core differences between scum and town, scum are trying to be perceived as town whereas town are just trying to help town. As such doing actions that are obviously intended to be perceived as town are scummy if they don't have a clear pro-town motivation, or obviously the individual is manipulating the situation to make himself appear more pro-town.
All the points still stand, you've been wagony as heck the entire game, loved dropping out of sight all the time, etc. Cop claim took out some, but with that gone, all the points in regards to you being scummy stand, and it's just the new points I brougt up here.
Oh no, I'm not arguing that. If OS came out D5 saying "yo I'm mafia, here's me being extremely mafia, here's my role and proof of me doing things with it", and was incredibly convincing with all of that, I wouldn't blame you for voting me.
The key point being here that he didn't.
He claimed he was mafia, offered no role, offered VERY little reasoning as to why he was scum, gave us no useful information on his faction, and refused to say why he didn't claim town, when there was absolutely no need for him to claim mafia when he was doing so very little in the regard to convince us that he was mafia at all.
His claim wasn't ludicrous because he claimed mafia.
It was ludicrous because he didn't explain why he did it.
And it took you way too long to "figure that out".
Er, yea he did explain why he did it, to "make sure the abductor got lynched".
But as of my reread, his case for him being mafia was more solid then your case for being cop by a mile.
Actually let me ask everyone at the end of the post. It was obvious to you because I was confirmed not-abductor by cross-voting, which left only OS. I didn't have that luxury of having a confirmed not abductor so I had to be cautious.
Plus, the more information OS pressured out of you the better for figuring out lylo tomorrow anyway.
What, am I going to vote myself and get my scumbuddy to hammer me? >.>
I said that I wanna use the entire day cause I wanna get as much information as possible which will allow me to be more likely to catch mafia toMorrow.
You however, don't seem to care about toMorrow, cause if you lynch somebody not on your side today you win anyway I guess and if you don't win it was because you got lynched.
Anyone notice how he's giving a wide berth to lynch literally everyone in the game?
My argument was that you defied a prior pattern, so something had to have changed.
Your argument is that a townie should quickvote in lylo if they strongly believe somebody is scum (which applies to you last game day of course, but it's irrelevant because it's a poor argument, lylo voting is one of the areas where recklessness is not a town-tell).
WIFOM. I already told you why I think Dan/X1 are town and you/FF are scum, and voting you was one way to end the stall the game had degenerated into.
WIFORM has a specific meaning, it only applies in cases where interpretations are equally likely.
This is a case where there's a clear scum desire, and also a difference in patterns between a day that you would've had a town mentality (you need to find and lynch scum) and a day that you could've either had a scum or town mentality.
And there's a stall, I think we can throw this in as another blatant misrepresentation. The reality of the situation is that pretty everyone is willing to lynch you atm because you're incredibly scummy and even your partner wouldn't risk defending you. We're just trying to use the rest of the day in hopes that you or your partner will give us some information that will help toMorrow.
yeah.
6 days is barely enough time to get stuff done, man. I never really even got a response out of this 3 days after.
This time you're "not wrong" because you know lynching me will win you the game today.
---
ISOin' dat adum
oh man I didn't even notice this
Here's adum putting some mega-weak distance on Pierre. Being suspicious about a person before they even post any content, or before the game is really out of RVS? lolok
adum avoiding connections and avoiding the spotlight (scum doens't want to look obvtown because it gets awkward when they aren't killed/they get too much attention and slip up).
Also note how he's being protective of Pierre (this is another common theme ).
That was avoiding the spotlight? Saying I don't think I look like the most pro-town player and that it seems like an obvious buddying attempt is trying to avoid the spotlight? I asked him to justify his assertions.
You don't avoid the spotlight by pressuring people to explain why they said unusual things (remember, I was very inactive at that point in the game), you avoid it by not taking stances on people, not pushing against town, and limiting your posts to as little as you can to get by.
Granted, the last one could apply to me, but I had a legitimate V/LA and my activity pattern was essentially the same in all the games I played regardless of my flip (this is the only game from that point where I haven't flipped, 3 were town, one was mafia). I'm pretty sure that's it. They were Fi****own mafia, bioware mafia, dgames mafia, SitMOA Mafia, this game obviously.
So how was I avoiding the spotlight?
Implies that he thinks Pierre is town when he's been pressuring him for the rest of the game.
Again, context. Pierre had no real scumtells at that point and established himself as a strong player. Yet, he vanished. Lurkers are very difficult to get reads on and easy fodder in lylo for scum, hence I halfway wanted to lynch him to off a lurker.
Context again, what she said was ridiculously scummy and joining bandwagons for good reasons is not a scumtell (unless you're on like every wagon and picking the safest place to join).
1st, my play was significantly different from how I played in Bioware (for one, I actually gave stances on people ).
2nd, note that he's going after the person he's said one thing to, rather than the person he's been pressuring all game and has been way less useful than I was.
3rd, note he threw his scumbuddy in between a pair of townies, one of which basically claimed a PR.
1. Heh? You were non-existent until much later in the game, doing the minimium to get by. Where are these stances that you've been taking up to that point?
2. Because you were scummy, he was inactive. Dastrn I couldn't make heads or tales of, mainly because of his inactivity. Think about the context, I had few scum reads, so my first target would be a scummy player of course, but if I can't, wouldn't it be time to dip into the null reads?
Again, here's something I noticed on my reread of D4: adum avoiding the spotlight and pushing others away. I took it as an abductor tell at the time, but it easily works as scum as well.
How is this avoiding the spotlight? If anything it makes me very visible when I do this.
Note here that adum is denying his connections with FF on the grounds that they are WIFOM, yet endorses the "pattern" finding part of scum hunting. There's a pretty clear pattern you're making here, adum: pressure Pierre/FF, come close to lynching him at multiple points, then never following up and going for other people. Why is that not scummy, again?
Except you haven't come up with a shred of evidence that me failing to lynch FF was because I chose not to. Look at the wagons, was Pierre/FF ever a favored lynch target? In spite of the heavy push I gave the wagon just didn't take.
Me not achieving something in spite of my best efforts to the contrary, hmmm, reminds me of my favorite scummy argument.
KevinM used it to get me lynched in Code Geass.
Gheb used it to try to get me lynched in Bioware.
Both mafia, I wonder why?
Failing to achieve something in spite of your best efforts is not a scumtell, if you believe I wasn't pursuing the lynch to the best of my efforts, then give some evidence.
adum, you said you would be risking a lot when you voted FF; but in the same post, you leave yourself the option of switching over to me, who almost got lynched yesterday and who other people think is scum. That's pretty damm safe.
How so? I clearly pushed for FF and attempted to start a bandwagon, but if that didn't take off, I said I'd be willing to lynch you.
Saying "I'm voting for this guy, but I'd be willing to kill this guy" doesn't mean that you'd be able to switch off if the wagon takes off. Just the opposite in fact, it commits you to that wagon if it takes off, and also commits you to another wagon if the one you're on doesn't take off. It wasn't safe at all, it's the opposite.
I already explained why I was questioning the NK, both from a "I'm new" standpoint (I didn't understand why they killed BSL, since I'd generally only seen scum go after strong players), and from a "I'm VT and want to die" standpoint (I wanted to know why scum NKed BSL over me). If you're just going to go through the game and point out "classic scum/town tells", you've already lost.
Did you not notice my FF conclusion where I said that X-1 was the most likely scummate?
I did, however for X-1 to be scum now, both he and FF would need to be scum, since there are only 2 mafia remaining, and we're confirmed via cross-voting x-1 is town.
lol
There was no reason because IT WAS A JOKE. I mean, really? Why the hell would I make called shots on a player's role? I wasn't being serious, I told you this D5 when you and OS kept bringing that thing up.
If it's a choice between you dying or a no lynch, you should die. One of the few acceptable places to self-hammer unless you're a pr because you substantially decrease town's overall odds of winning.
Wagons I've been on:
Roxy: I started it. I didn't really have any other wagons I wanted to join/make at the time.
OS: Voting for someone based on gut reads is not something you can just "jump on", and look how much attention I got for it. Again, he was my only target.
Pierre/adum: Pierre I only wanted to kill if it was a modkill, otherwise wasting a lynch would be pointless. I wanted to lynch you because I thought your buddying of Swiss was scummy. D2 I was on 2 wagons total.
Vocal: I basically only had my vote on Vocal for the entire Day (I think), and never really got around to making other stances, aside from me thinking adum was town and FF was scummy (but I never pushed it).
everything else was abductor stuff
I had my vote on 5 people, all at various times, and the only time I was open to more than one lynch at a time was D2, when I wanted to lynch Pierre/adum. 2 of the wagons adum and I were both on (adum was basically on the Vocal wagon, he thought he was flailing). The other 3 were consistent with the reads I had on D2 (that everyone except OS/FF/adum was town).
The wagon hopping was minimal and not indicative of scumminess.
I've had THREE lynches open since near the start of the game. They were you, FF, and OS. I've pretty much been consistent with who I thought was scum since then.
yeah...that's pretty much his non-abductor case on me
So, you've been on... every major wagon throughout the game. And you went into them with minimal reasoning as well.
Exactly.
Note how much more detail FF's ISO has (and no that's not sarcasm, click the link and read it, there's WAY more talk of adum connecting him to other people than mine). It could have been adum/FF were expecting to lynch Bed the Abductor and lead into either an X1 mislynch for the game or an FF bus to make adum look town. Really, it didn't even look like he was trying to show that FF was the abdcutor, which works both as a deterrent to lynch him and as a great way to distance your scumbuddy.
Simple, because one of major reason I picked you as abductor and him as mafia was because you had much fewer potential mafia connections. You did a good job there, true. But you still didn't manage to maintain the not-scum fascade very well.
Also, FF's analysis was devoted a lot more to comparing NAs with voting patterns which by nature, requires more details.
The tl;dr of my ISO is, if you think the connections between FF and adum are scummy, as I do, then there's no reason your vote shouldn't be on adum or FF. They've been bumping elbows since D1 and there's no other players they've paid more attention to than themselves. It's clear scum distancing at its finest.
---
I'll get around to ISOing FF later (need to focus on other games/it won't take long, he hasn't posted too much), as well as responding to some of the things in his recent post.
1. "Why'd you clear Swiss so easily", in spite of the fact that I only put him as leaning town? (when you clearly thought he was town at around the same time for reasons you never explained why, why's he so scummy now, but not before)
2. "Every interaction between Adum and Pierre/FF is distancing/bussing" without an explanation.
3. "You took too long to figure out that OS was the abductor, obviously you were trying to pretend you weren't scum", except he was convinced I was the abductor before so it couldn't have been that obvious, and he had it confirmed by cross-voting so of course he knew, whereas I had every incentive to take my time.
4. "These other people did this scummy stuff too", even though it was clear that the circumstances were different, mostly due to sheer volume.
5. "You don't have your vote on me yet", a case OS just used on him yesterday, even though I explained why clearly, and he has yet to poke a hole in that reasoning.
He's flailing, and he has a number of lies and significant misrepresentation there.
Furthermore his ISO doesn't take into account context AT ALL.
Furthermore, he ISO 16 out of 83 posts I've made, 16. Granted I didn't touch posts that told me nothing either way, but can you honestly say that you can believe that a little less then 20% of my posts told him something about my alignment? Furthermore, he didn't include a single post that according to his interpretation suggested anything other then his conclusion.
That's cherry-picking, there is no legitimate effort to actually find anything scummy, he's just searching my posts for things he can spin as pro-scum.
His reasoning is also simply horrible and it's pretty obvious he's not being intellectually honest here, that he's looking looking for excuses to lynch without actually making a good faith effort to figure it out.
Why? Cause he already knows who the scum are.
Now, he could say that this is after I've been confirmed as scum to him, but then why'd he loss in a vote against me IF HE DIDN'T ALREADY HAVE AN IRON-CLAD case?
@everyone: Was it obvious to you guys that OS was the abductor?
@ Your buddying accusations (too awkward to quote @_@), yes, I was buddying you, because I felt I had a good read on someone for something that no one else had picked up on, and I wanted to make sure I told town that on the offchance I was offed N1. I wasn't actually planning on explaining my full reasoning (check back to D1; at most, I gave a few lines on why I thought you were town before you asked me to elaborate), but you pushed me to explain it, so I obliged. The secondary reason behind me buddying you is that I wanted to get killed; this was the first time I've been VT in a mafia game, and I decided I wanted to try out the strategy Praxis had used (and told me about on AIM) when he was a VT in Bioware: "be such an obnoxious townie that scum want you dead so you get killed over PRs" (read my posts in the Halo mafia mafia QT and you'll see me correctly identify Praxis as VT based on this, although I didn't explain how I knew in the QT). That was why I immediately put down my reads on everyone in the game (which I'd never done before, and which I later contradicted by saying "I'm not the type to put all my cards on the table" XD) and started off by going into detail about why I thought you were town. I thought that SOME of that would attract some attention of the mafia, but it didn't end up working out.
No, I'm not attempting to make you think I'm town because I think you're town, or because you're new to mafia, or whatever. I'm just saying who I think is town, which I've been doing all game.
1. I said you were town D1. Unless I was N0 cop (which I didn't claim) or Day cop (also didn't claim), I would have no way of knowing you were town if I was using my "clearing" of you as a fake cop investigation.
2. I have been planning to fakeclaim cop...since D3. If I was planning to fakeclaim since D1, I would have made myself look much more like a cop and OS would have had a harder time disproving my claim, though I guess you could argue that that was a mistake on my part. >.>
Fair enough explanation, but the whole thing still seems too methodical for a townie to worry about trying. You could have tried to get night killed in a lot less lynch-risking ways, and imo should have left that goal of getting night killed in the dust after it was clear a mafiate didn't see your fake bread crumbs. Actually claiming cop was going too far, I think.
It could just be a townie mistake, but looks more like scum. Which is ironic because of the situation I'm in right now with my doc claim...
1. I said that before I started going after adum/started seeing the FF/adum connections. There are numerous reasons why I would say something like that: to make him feel more comfortable (which may have worked and may have drawn him into saying he was having difficulty between me and OS when he didn't), because I hadn't yet thought of him as mafia, or because I was simply annoyed at mafia not killing me and pointed out the only thing I could see that would make them do that. It was mostly a combination of these 3.
2. That doesn't directly imply I think that he's town. It either played a part because scum saw what adum said and decided to go off that, or, because adum himself is scum, he didn't think I was cop and decided to go off what he, himself said.
I didn't really have anything I was keeping back, lol. I'd already told everyone I had town reads on everyone except adum/FF/OS, and I'd already made my case on adum. I was a VT, I didn't have any info from my role, and I'd already given out stances on everyone in the game. I didn't see anything else I really needed to say.
Wait, what? You just said in the first of the above two quoted sections "I hadn't yet thought of him [Adumbrodeus] as mafia." Now you're saying you did have a scum read on him? Which is it?
X1/Dan, I'm quite sure you're both town, so please comment on the FF/adum situation so that we can actually progress this Day.
@Dan: do you believe I don't have the note ability? that it is not real? The only way I could be lying about the note is if FF was my scumbuddy. Also LOOOTS of evidence to back it up. OS abducted me the Night after I had noted him. Swiss said this:
So my ability is confirmed. I could be a mafia spy or something of the like but unlikely. It seems in this game flavour is linked to role and alignment. (Them are just a random bunch of aliens, Anju owns an inn, kaepora gaebora fits self-watcher, Guru guru fits music box. Postman fits town agent.) and I don't think there's an evil character in MM who fits my ability. Feel free to disbleive flavour but either way my townness should become apparent as I deliver the last 2 scum to you on a plate.
You should have posted that quote of Swiss when you claimed. Would have made things a lot easier.
I said I did believe you had the messaging ability. I wasn't sure if you were lying about being town aligned or not though.
On the other hand, now I'm pretty sure you're probably town, partly because I looked up the cast of Majora's Mask and couldn't find anything relating to a messager, but also because you're pressuring me about claiming doctor in places I don't think a mafiate would.
DanGR
Is it really odd? I pushed for claims because its LYLO and that's what you do in LYLO. Do you think me not revealing much about my role 'interesting'? because that's a scummy underhand comment if I've ever seen one. Try asking what the details were before attacking someone for not releasing them. Each of the notes I sent basically included telling people my role and telling them my scumpicks (with the exception of N1).
Yes there is a chance I could be a non-town aligned messenger but as I've already covered, its unlikely. Full details are I can send 1 player a message each Night, which will be delivered anonymously, it can contain anything and be any length. I am flattered that you can call me experienced but I've only been around for a couple of months.
I didn't think I'd have to ask you about your role. You said you would comment in a bit (assumedly telling us more information about your role)... but never did, so I wondered why.
What did you tell Swiss, FF, and OS your scumpicks were early on? Were you telling them the truth? Why do I even need to ask this? You know this is coming. >.>
You were, and still are withholding helpful information after saying you'd comment further. You didn't comment until I said something about it. And then you accused me of being scum for doing that? I don't get it.
Why were you so fast to assume Adum and Sir B are not both Mafia?
But also, I don't see a reason for scum to claim doctor. It'd have to be to help Adumbrodeus or Sir Bed in some way because it would have been an unnecessary risk for me to take to help my own case as a townie, as everyone was already fairly certain I was town, or at least that's the impression I got. No one was applying any real pressure, and it didn't seem like anyone intended to later unless I messed up somewhere. Sir Bed even said he'd let me win if I was scum lol, though that doesn't mean a lot to me right now coming from him.
In other words, the risk of being lynched by town would have to be outweighed by the benefit I'd bring to my partner.
On the other hand, I have a lot of incentive to claim my role as doctor.
---
What's the chance both Sir Bed and Adumbrodeus are mafia? No one's brought it up. I don't think it's likely, but still.
I don't like how pro-town OS is. He looks like an impatient townie, but it's a bit overboard, as if he has overestimated how impatient he should look to give off that particular brand of townie-ness. It's too much, I think, if that makes sense. He makes me feel uncomfortable. :<
After I said that, he didn't say anything about it, which would have been fine in my opinion except he was just complaining a ton about no one posting/posting anything useful. Well, there's something he could have commented on, but declined to for some reason. In other words, his restlessness looked kind of isolated to stuff he wanted to look impatient about.
Figured I'd look for more stuff like that before posting about it, though.
But then I was abducted. How do you think I felt about that? lol
@Dangr: Yes, it's technically possible that we're both a scum team, but does any evidence exist to back up that assertion? There's plenty of evidence that sir bed is scum, but I see nothing that suggests we're scummates or that I'm scum period.
Fair enough explanation, but the whole thing still seems too methodical for a townie to worry about trying. You could have tried to get night killed in a lot less lynch-risking ways, and imo should have left that goal of getting night killed in the dust after it was clear a mafiate didn't see your fake bread crumbs. Actually claiming cop was going too far, I think.
It could just be a townie mistake, but looks more like scum. Which is ironic because of the situation I'm in right now with my doc claim...
Well, I wasn't really trying actively to get NKed through the rest of the game, lol. That would start to look awkward.
And I didn't claim cop to get NKed, I claimed cop because I was pretty sure I was going to get lynched if I didn't claim something pretty impressive, and me getting lynched would have resulted in our loss. Having the chance to get NKed later was just an added bonus.
Wait, what? You just said in the first of the above two quoted sections "I hadn't yet thought of him [Adumbrodeus] as mafia." Now you're saying you did have a scum read on him? Which is it?
What was my motivation, as mafia, for claiming cop toDay instead of yesterDay? Why would it have better for me, as town, to have done it yesterDay?
Between me and adum, who's most scum? You can think we're both scum if you want, but who would you lynch right now if you had to? Why?
What do you think of the interactions between adum and FF? Do you think all the distancing and elbow rubbing adum has done is scummy? Do you think FF's case on adum was safe, and do you think you would have lynched either one based on it if there was another reasonable lynch (like Vocal) also available as a lynch choice?
Why don't you think X1 is town, DanGR?/DanGR is town, X1? Respond to the points I've made that made me think that both of you are town.
I think I had more, but I'll just ask them when I remember them.
Except it's not a weak argument, and framing it as such just makes you look worse. Swiss is too experienced a scum to make such an elementary mistake, hence he was town using the basic attack manuever vote-hopping.
And far stronger players then you use townie recklessness as as a reason to believe somebody's town at a far higher level. Look at this game, specifically rhinox and incognito. EMP proposed a massclaim, which is inherently a great deal scummier then starting wagons a lot.
Frankly, what's scummy about starting wagons a lot? Explain this to me.
Putting accusations on the person pressuring you at the time while simultaneously backing up on the buddying you were accused of? Nice.
Side-note: I see "Bandwagon to Victory" is one of the basic attack maneuvers. Why can't I have been doing that, again? The "pick out players as town" part fits perfectly with what I've done for most of the game (I haven't seen this page/heard of either of these strats, btw, I guess I just stumbled on using it by accident).
Also, you ENTIRELY forget, there was still an abductor on the loose. Even assuming I was mafia, what reason would I have to clear swiss unless I believed he was town? I wouldn't know ANYBODY was town for sure until toDay as mafia.
But you were planning to kill Swiss, remember? If you were scum and planning to buddy and kill Swiss, it would have worked out for you either way.
And I'm sorry that you dislike meta, but the reality is meta is used near universally in the game. You arguing that using meta is scummy essentially, but that again gives you an open invitation to start cases on just about everyone.
I see somebody do something as scum, they continue doing it. That suggests scum. Plus, it forces a person I think is scummy to defend themselves, if they are scum, usually this results in more scumslips.
I don't dislike meta in and of itself. Using meta is fine when you want to compare how someone is playing a game now in comparison with another game, if how they're playing is different; why are they playing differently? What made them change their style? However, I don't think it's reliable when you see X player playing like Y in game A and he flips Q, and when you see that same player X playing like Y in game B, that you automatically assume he's Q in game B too. It's certainly an indicator that, if they played like Y in game A as Q that's it's MORE likely that they're Q in game B if they're also playing like Y, but it should never be the only reason of why you think they're scummy, and there'd still have to be a significant case behind them in order for any useful lynch to occur. Basically, meta is the fluff that lines the inside of a case, not the case itself.
I play a lurky/wagony/non-confrontational player who's really quiet in the early game and starts going off in the lategame. I always attempt to play like this because I want to be unmetable. If you're going to meta me based on Bioware, than be fair and meta me based on my other games; you'll see that the style isn't far off.
Hell, if you're going to be fair, don't meta me off Bioware at all, because that was my first and ONLY game as mafia and isn't a reliable source of mafia meta. >_> How could you be so certain I was scum based on metaing one game?
Also, note:
How far did you saying "Bed is playing the same as he did in Bioware, me thinks he's scum" get you, anyway? Aside from I think Vocal, no one else voted me or really even paid attention to me for D2 (after the OS wagon where OS put some pressure on me) until the Day's end when a lynch was necessary and I was really the only one with enough votes to go anywhere. This is exactly my point with respect to how FF pushed your case; he/you knew it would fail because thinking someone is scum almost solely on meta gets ignored, because people don't want to join the wagon, have that person get lynched and flip town, and then look really bad when the only thing they can say the next day is "oops, looks like we were wrong ".
Lynching based only on meta is terrible, and had your lynch occurred because of FF's case (and you flip town) we'd have almost nothing to go on for the next day because the only thing we could say about the people who were on your lynch were that they were wrong. That's why no one would go for it.
And what in our patterns SHOWS that it was actually distancing as opposed just "I thought he was scum" and kept him as a target.
Yeah, I think I read that wrong. >_< You were open to joining Vocal's lynch/Vocal possibly being scum, though, which was my point. You went from "FF or Bed is the play" to "Vocal lookin' flaily, let me look at our options" without even addressing the case FF made on Vocal, which IMO is pretty telltale; it would seem like just the kind of thing scum would do to allow a scummate to make a case on a town player, see if it takes off, and then put down their stance on it (but you didn't even do that; you ignored it completely, because it didn't need your help).
As far as not-mafia cred, you can use that for any scum lynch, but the vast majority of time the extra town-cred doesn't outweigh the extra day you need. Especially considering that bussing leaves signs that townies can pick up, especially when mafia starts the wagon.
As I said, I don't think you were trying to legitimately lynch each other. Abductor/only 2 mafiats in a sea of townies makes bussing bad.
But this plan had the secondary effect of giving you town-cred if the lynch actually happened, as unlikely as it would be. Basically, it was win-win; either you put pressure on FF/FF puts pressure on you, you distance each other and have a lot of control over the wagon, or one of you gets lynched and gains townie-cred. But I've already explained how I don't think the meta lynch would have occurred.
So, unless you have proof, you've just given yourself licence to push anyone mafia lynch as bussing. Where's the evidence that this was a bus. [/QUOTE]
Alone, it isn't a bus. It's a bad push by FF and is more likely to indicate your towniness and FF's scumminess. If this was an isolated incident, FF flipping mafia would probably make you more likely to be town.
Together with how you've been putting really weak pressure/distance on Pierre/FF and how you've ignored pressuring other townies (Roxy) when they've been just as inactive/useless as FF/Pierre for no reason, and how you acted yesterDay and how you thought of yourself yesterDay, it makes the both of you scum.
What I did was realize that a wagon failed to take off, I looked at alternatives to make sure there was a lynch, and then pushed him again next game day.
Oh, so you mean what I did D2 when I switched from OS to you (minus the "push again" part since I got a town read on you)?
Care to be consistent?
Pulling back on a meta case is no less easy then on a case based on the logical tendencies of a role or any other form of content. Unless you give a good reason why you're pulling back your case, it looks particularly scummy because you're saying that it's cause you know how a player thinks.
You could have explained out your actions fully to him, he'd understand that you weren't shrugging things off, you were just doing "X", and move on. If you were both working behind the scenes, you could easily manipulate who was winning the argument and thus, who would be closer to getting lynched.
Also... why are you misrepresenting so many things?
My case on FF was based on how vacuous and scummy his case on me was, I didn't even touch on meta.
Is that what you're referring to? Yeah, I think I switched your names around, sorry. >.<
Why?
I was a primary lynch target, people were looking for excuses to lynch me, if I responded badly or didn't turn it on it's head, odds were I would've gotten lynched.
1. X1 mostly voted for pressure reasons. If OS got to L-1 legitimately (I don't think he ever actually was, at least not for a good amount of time) and other people were interested in voting as well, I'm pretty sure he would have unvoted.
2. Vocal was on the wagon, and seeing as I'm pretty sure he thought almost everyone in the game was scum at various points, and his reasons for voting OS weren't very good, it didn't make the wagon on OS very appealing to be on.
3. Swiss pushed solely on meta and gut. Just like your lynch would have been bad if you flipped town, OS' lynch would have been just the same. There were too many conservative players unwilling to trust reads on the sidelines for anything legitimate to have happened. I'm mostly a read/gut-based player and I personally don't mind lynching based on gut alone (principally, I know it's wrong, but if the town all has similar reads and accepts the consequences of their target flipping scum, it's OK IMO), so my vote/invitation to wagon OS was a lure to see if any other players were willing to lynch based on gut too. Additionally, the fact that Swiss was pushing OS based on his gut both made me more confident in my own gut read, as well as make me think that Swiss was town (that was why I thought he was town at that juncture, @you poking at why I thought Swiss was town later in my post). Though it turned out we were both right for the wrong reasons.
NO! Not "if I say so", you at the very least should be able to admit that you were wrong on this point.
IIRC I provided a source for this well before by pointing to either the large vs. small thread (which linked to a post by hoopla explaining the various balances in great depth, she's one of the premiere mafiascum game designers btw) or I linked directly to the post in question on mafiascum. Either way I'll link.
Bioware is very easy to find again.
I provided sources and evidence, you provide pure theories with no evidence whatsoever. How like the entire rest of your case.
Your case reads much more like you trying to use any semantic edge to prove you're right them a case you actually believe, hence why you won't even admit points that are STARING YOU IN THE FACE.
And no, "if you say so" is not and admission, it's a wiggle phrase to drop a point you're obviously losing without losing face.
No, "if you say so" is LITERALLY me saying "you know more about this and are going to get called out on this if you're lying, so what you're saying must be true". You know I've played in 7 (essentially 4) games, adum, OF COURSE I'm going to assume these types of things based on the limited amount of experience I've had with mafia, as well as the logic I've developed from my experience with mafia, because that's all I have to go off of. Haven't I proven enough with my thinking the abductor couldn't be BP? I'm quite sure in all the games I've been involved with (aka not Halo/Bioware, since I've always been disinterested as scum /extreme amount of WIFOM) that the RB was able to block the killer or the indy, (unless specifically stated in that indy's PM), so of course I'd assume that.
There was no reason to blow your lid on me for saying one "wiggle phrase". If you're trying to pull the "frustrated townie" look, it doesn't look good on you. Doesn't match your eyes.
It's certainly possible he would've, but odds were we would've lost at least one mafia if it was between me, you, and FF. Why would I take that risk?
Abducting wouldn't have killed your scumbuddy. If scum abducted you or FF, the choice still would have been between me and OS, so you neither widen nor shorten your abductor lynch pool. I was clearly 100% for no lynch, and you couldn't have lynched OS just by yourselves (especially since I thought OS was mafia), so pushing for OS would be completely pointless. So long as I was pushing for no lynch and you thought I wasn't abductor, you would be accomplishing absolutely nothing in mylo. Lylo was the only way you could go, and it had the added bonus of OS possibly targeting me and making the Day very, very easy for you and FF.
I always wondered why FF took so damm long to "look over my claim", and I think I understand why; he was waiting for you to see what you should do next.
Except I could've just backread and looked at the massive holes in your claim.
My saying that you have good breadcrumbs meant I wasn't gonna push for your lynch at the time, it didn't bind me when you claimed. I could've said, "your pattern doesn't match up with a cop, vote sir bed" and been done with you.
Then why didn't you? Didn't feel like rereading on something that could have determined the very outcome of the game? I could have been lying and been abductor. Scum could have decided to NK that Night. Why weren't you worried about that?
Numba 1, because you're scum and knew that going into lylo was perfectly safe since you were in control of the kill. That's WIFOM (and can also apply to me), but it doesn't explain away:
numba 2, because you couldn't push for someone who, in all likelihood, could be telling the truth AND could end up clearing you. You were still stuck in the mafia mentality of immediately backing off of claimed PRs, because not lynching people with roles that help town is an action perceived as town ("Hoo damn, this kid's pickin' things up fast!" -Swiss, from the grave). I could have been insane, in which case trying to kill of OS who you knew would have been abductor at that point would have been great, and not killing me and letting me lead town to a mislynch would have been even greater. OS could have abducted me, and you would have that easy D5 I've been talking about. There were too many things that could have gone right for you, and not enough things to go wrong, that it wouldn't have been better to believe my claim, see what happens come D5, and go from there.
Or claimed miller which is actually relatively common in copless games because it provides both advantages and disadvantages to town which seems to fit the overall theme of most of this game. The advantage obviously being that you can catch fakeclaiming cops with it.
Why didn't I do that if I were mafia? Part of it had to be that your claim made sense.
Clearly it didn't, or you wouldn't have believed my claim in the first place. I admit, not pushing OS harder after getting a guilty on him was a big hole in my explanation (but then I wasn't planning on claiming cop at that point, so I couldn't really change anything), but the fact that you didn't notice it shows you didn't really reread since it was such an important part of my claim.
And you didn't get an innocent on FF until the next day, why would that have stopped me from hammering when I was in a good position to do so?
I meant killing me last Night. OS punching holes in my claim probably helped, as well.
There was also the fact that, if you thought I was telling the truth about my claim and you were both mafia, there was no way you would have killed me last Night. I couldn't be a regular cop, because I got an inno on FF when you KNEW for a fact that there were no manipulative roles left, so killing me wouldn't leave you as both clear. I could have been some sort of indy-hunter type cop, in which case killing me does nothing for you (as the inno's on you and FF were meaningless), and it would be better to hunt for other, useful PRs. And then I could have been insane, in which case town would have had the easiest D6 and D7 in mafia history.
1. Because it was way outside of your pattern (since it was the only non-serious thing you did.
[collapse=my lulzy posts]to be done tomorrow >.>[/collapse]
2. Because based on context it didn't seem like a joke at all, so quite frankly I don't believe you. You can claim ANYTHING is a joke and try to get a pass for it.
OK, but I don't understand what's scummy about saying someone's a certain mafia role in the first place, because if you think they're mafia (no matter what role they are, in most situations), you should lynch them.
Simple, townies don't care how their actions are PERCEIVED, they just wanna do things that help their faction win. If they are actually very pro-town their actions should be perceived as such yes, and if they aren't, they should be able to point to a pro-town motivation under pressure, beyond avoiding the noose of course.
That's one of the core differences between scum and town, scum are trying to be perceived as town whereas town are just trying to help town. As such doing actions that are obviously intended to be perceived as town are scummy if they don't have a clear pro-town motivation, or obviously the individual is manipulating the situation to make himself appear more pro-town.
Oh, that makes sense. I think that's an area of my game that needs to be improved; too often I'm more concerned about my own survival (even as VT, when I plan to die ;- than I am about being town, because I associate a town victory with my survival. /large amounts of WIFOM
It still doesn't explain why me not claiming yesterDay was scummy. Attempting to draw the NK away from PRs when you have a completely useless role seems like I'm "trying to help town" to me. What exactly would I have been gaining for town yesterDay by claiming then? Don't say that it was to help you make the right decision, because I was ALREADY convinced you were going to make the right decision and saw no real reason that made me think I needed to claim.
All the points still stand, you've been wagony as heck the entire game, loved dropping out of sight all the time, etc. Cop claim took out some, but with that gone, all the points in regards to you being scummy stand, and it's just the new points I brougt up here.
Lol, so you not being here because of V/LA allows you to be inactive and get out of jail free, but I can't? My schedule IS busy and I can't devote time consistently to mafia, so if you're criticizing me on me not being here, you're criticizing my life.
Er, yea he did explain why he did it, to "make sure the abductor got lynched".
"Hey guys, I'm a VT, and I'm claiming VT so that you know that I'm not the abductor so you can lynch him instead of me, who isn't the abductor. K? K!" -Dumb Person
If you were OS and also a VT in abductor lylo, would you have said this?
No.
Why?
BECAUSE IT PROVES NOTHING
OS' reason for claiming mafia had absolutely no backing to them, because the only backing they had was "to prove he wasn't abductor", which is meaningless when you could be the abductor and lying.
But as of my reread, his case for him being mafia was more solid then your case for being cop by a mile.
-getting inno on FF when I shouldn't (it could have been possible, this game is different)
-not pursuing OS harder when I had a guilty on him (wasn't sure of sanity, was more concerned with abductor)
-whatever other stupid reasons
was better than OS':
-claiming mafia when doing so would result in his automatic lynch the next day and would be terrible for mafia
-claiming mafia offering absolutely no proof as to why he was mafia after being asked repeatedly
-claiming mafia when claiming town would have been so much better for his faction and when he had apparently nothing to differentiate his claim from that of a VT
How does that even relate to what I said?
I said that I wanna use the entire day cause I wanna get as much information as possible which will allow me to be more likely to catch mafia toMorrow.
You however, don't seem to care about toMorrow, cause if you lynch somebody not on your side today you win anyway I guess and if you don't win it was because you got lynched.
Why does you putting your vote on me implicate that you want to end the Day?
There's confirmed scum between us. One of us will be lynched toDay. There's nothing wrong with putting your vote on me, and if you're worried someone else will vote and I'll self-hammer, you can say you'll lynch anyone who votes me if deadline isn't within X hours. You not voting me just looks like you don't want to OMGUS me and you're not certain I'm scum when, if you actually were town, you'd know for sure I was.
You're being cautious where caution isn't needed. Gord did that in Sonic Mafia as scum, and you're doing it here.
No, the "DURR HURR you know how I know you like fried chocolate sundaes on a Wednesday?" followed by weak reasons arguments both you and OS have used. It just looks bad, lol.
My argument was that you defied a prior pattern, so something had to have changed.
Your argument is that a townie should quickvote in lylo if they strongly believe somebody is scum (which applies to you last game day of course, but it's irrelevant because it's a poor argument, lylo voting is one of the areas where recklessness is not a town-tell).
I don't consider 6 days into the game "quickvoting".
OS voting me 1 day and 3 posts into the game is quickvoting. Chibo voting Rockin a few days after Day start in Sonic mafia is quickvoting. Sir Bed voting adum 6 days before deadline and when barely anyone had made any progress is an attempt to make something happen, and isn't quickvoting.
WIFORM has a specific meaning, it only applies in cases where interpretations are equally likely.
This is a case where there's a clear scum desire, and also a difference in patterns between a day that you would've had a town mentality (you need to find and lynch scum) and a day that you could've either had a scum or town mentality.
How is it a clear scum desire to vote someone you think/know is scum? SOMEONE would have eventually had to vote for SOMEONE. Are you saying the first person to do that is scum?
And there's a stall, I think we can throw this in as another blatant misrepresentation.
No, because I'm quite sure Dan and X1 are town, and if you flip scum, your connections to FF implicate you too heavily for FF to get out of it. You dying should result in a town win.
So... deciding to watch somebody because they won't let you find meta on them at all is distancing?
Yes. Early distancing both you and Pierre were in control of.
And if this was all you did, I'd have no problem with it, but you never stopped rubbing elbows with FF all game.
That was avoiding the spotlight? Saying I don't think I look like the most pro-town player and that it seems like an obvious buddying attempt is trying to avoid the spotlight? I asked him to justify his assertions.
You don't avoid the spotlight by pressuring people to explain why they said unusual things (remember, I was very inactive at that point in the game), you avoid it by not taking stances on people, not pushing against town, and limiting your posts to as little as you can to get by.
Granted, the last one could apply to me, but I had a legitimate V/LA and my activity pattern was essentially the same in all the games I played regardless of my flip (this is the only game from that point where I haven't flipped, 3 were town, one was mafia). I'm pretty sure that's it. They were Fi****own mafia, bioware mafia, dgames mafia, SitMOA Mafia, this game obviously.
Again, context. Pierre had no real scumtells at that point and established himself as a strong player. Yet, he vanished. Lurkers are very difficult to get reads on and easy fodder in lylo for scum, hence I halfway wanted to lynch him to off a lurker.
You can't just brush this off, adum. Why would you specifically choose to put pressure on one inactive, but not the other?
Context again, what she said was ridiculously scummy and joining bandwagons for good reasons is not a scumtell (unless you're on like every wagon and picking the safest place to join).
1. Heh? You were non-existent until much later in the game, doing the minimium to get by. Where are these stances that you've been taking up to that point?
Basically my first post in the game was me taking a stance on everyone. >.>
Then I started Roxy lynch. Then I joined your and OS' wagons.
You hadn't done much beyond that, either.
2. Because you were scummy, he was inactive. Dastrn I couldn't make heads or tales of, mainly because of his inactivity. Think about the context, I had few scum reads, so my first target would be a scummy player of course, but if I can't, wouldn't it be time to dip into the null reads?
Except you haven't come up with a shred of evidence that me failing to lynch FF was because I chose not to. Look at the wagons, was Pierre/FF ever a favored lynch target? In spite of the heavy push I gave the wagon just didn't take.
Me not achieving something in spite of my best efforts to the contrary, hmmm, reminds me of my favorite scummy argument.
KevinM used it to get me lynched in Code Geass.
Gheb used it to try to get me lynched in Bioware.
Both mafia, I wonder why?
Failing to achieve something in spite of your best efforts is not a scumtell, if you believe I wasn't pursuing the lynch to the best of my efforts, then give some evidence.
How so? I clearly pushed for FF and attempted to start a bandwagon, but if that didn't take off, I said I'd be willing to lynch you.
Saying "I'm voting for this guy, but I'd be willing to kill this guy" doesn't mean that you'd be able to switch off if the wagon takes off. Just the opposite in fact, it commits you to that wagon if it takes off, and also commits you to another wagon if the one you're on doesn't take off. It wasn't safe at all, it's the opposite.
You and OS have both seriously overrated my playing experience.
I don't know that doing that is a scumtell. I did something like that in Sonic mafia and no one called me out on it.
If it's a choice between you dying or a no lynch, you should die. One of the few acceptable places to self-hammer unless you're a pr because you substantially decrease town's overall odds of winning.
If you're saying I voted on every wagon with minimal reasoning, you'd have to say the same for yourself. Your wagon case is BS.
Simple, because one of major reason I picked you as abductor and him as mafia was because you had much fewer potential mafia connections. You did a good job there, true. But you still didn't manage to maintain the not-scum fascade very well.
so you picked me as abductor because I had few connections
and yet you're dismissing my FF-adum connections on you when it runs so deeply in your posting history because...why?
Furthermore, he ISO 16 out of 83 posts I've made, 16. Granted I didn't touch posts that told me nothing either way, but can you honestly say that you can believe that a little less then 20% of my posts told him something about my alignment? Furthermore, he didn't include a single post that according to his interpretation suggested anything other then his conclusion.
That's cherry-picking, there is no legitimate effort to actually find anything scummy, he's just searching my posts for things he can spin as pro-scum.
Getting in a post before class, why the heck are thinking about ending the day so soon, guys just chill.
(note that my v/la is consistent, my posting on those days will be very limited, but should be the only time I work a thursday shift before class for a while).
*narrows eyes*
OS and pierre I have null tells on so far, though I'm interested in Pierre.
Dangr seems town as of right now.
Vocal needs a second look.
Dunno if it's X1 being X1 or X1 being scum yet, I'll look into it.
Keep in mind my V/LA is consistent so limited access today through weds
Gonna agree on OS, him being defensive is a bit of a null tell.
TBH I halfway feel like this game is gonna be about process of elimination.
Null tell so far, I'm pretty good at reading him, so I'm gonna keep an eye on him.
I have a long-standing desire to be scum-buddies with OS in a mechanics heavy game where we figure out some nice exploit and proceed to obliterate town summarily.
As far as ruling town, I'm pretty good as scum lol, LOTR mafia I was pretty much ruling town and I had summoner and Vrael as scummates (but, comp issues...). Played a near perfect game in BIM 2 and played pretty **** good as scum in Square Enix mafia on MS which was my first game as scum (being a hunter in CT doesn't count), so yea I could, but I don't think I need OS to rule town. A strong scum-buddy always helps though and OS is pretty strong as scum (hence why he usually needs to be watched carefully).
Pierre seems pretty good, he's gonna be useful, if he's not scum, he's definitely in my sights atm.
You're asking questions which don't produce real information and saying things that are just distracting.
Let me illustrate this through another quote:
The objective of mafia is to figure out what what a person's aims are based on their actions.
Ask yourself, how do your actions serve that objective.
Granted there is a way to do it using a similar playstyle, but it requires a good degree of sophistication about the game and you're being too obvious imo.
*narrows eyes*
I get a buddying vibe from this, I don't think I've done anything so far that would make me deserve most pro-town.
Frankly, I should've been bottom of the barrel then, I only had 9 posts, so frankly just about anyone seemed a better pick then me.
Measuring at face value, Swiss was probably the best choice by a wide margin given your vibes for OS and DanGR. I guess Pierre was a consistent choice given the time and your choice of me.
Why care to illustrate what you found about my posts prior to your decision that you found so pro-town?
@OS: I said DanGR, I get a slight noobtown read from him. X1 needs to be watched closely.
As far as lynch, I'd prefer to give the recent replacements a chance to get active.
Gonna hold off a bit on the answer to this cause I wanna check some meta on this, but I half-way wanna say pierre if he doesn't get his *** in gear soon.
You presume poorly, I don't even know how you drew that conclusion based on what I said.
"Good" is a measure of skill, if I meant "pro-town" I would say "pro-town" and if I meant "I have a town read" I would say "leans town".
As for why I haven't prodded him, other matters drew my attention, because I had limited time so I concentrated on other things, I am V/LA after all.
Yes, it was redundant because I was agreeing with him, there's a lot in regards to competency you can tell early on, if you know what to look for. An MVP dice tends to be a major clue too.
But can't be sure hence the "seems".
I've noted changes as I went on, he's drawn my interest.
And what in your opinion suggests that one's bad at being mafia as opposed to them both being bad at being mafia?
Also, nothing that stands out as fishy, but the meta tells I have on him are mainly behavioral, so we'll see.
Question Sir Bed, why Pierre?
Just because it was your question doesn't mean somebody can't ask you to answer it yourself.
As for me, If I were scum OS would probably be my first choice due to the fact that he's got a pretty strong record of reading me when I'm scum, making him a stronger liability to my scum game then any other player in the game. His record of reading me when I'm town however... is a bit lackluster.
This question is wiformy as hell btw.
@everyone: could you guys answer swiss' question? I wanna see what he has in mind.
Dastrn confuses me as does pierre, they definitely need to be watched toDay.
Argh, way too many question marks, vocal's recent play is starting to make me doubt my initial idiot town read, but I'm still more confident of that then my reads on anyone else.
My view of swiss is the same as before, I see his lynch attempt on OS as a move by a townie that thought he had a good read, and because of that I think I can take the rest of his wagoning on face value, gut reads. He needs to be more systematic imo.
OS hasn't tossed up any red flags and the wagon on him disturbs me too much, as I said, could still be the abductor, but mafia should be priority and again no red flags.
Dan I'm rather unsure of, when we deal with the abductor I'll do a reread, but he's not a priority atm.
X1 is extremely wagon happy which disturbs me, but he's applying some good pressure so I'm ok with him for now.
Dastrn doesn't seem to exist, and his hinting at a PR was... odd, he seems to have a near non-existent pressure game.
Pierre... is he even in this game?
Sir Bed, his play reminds me a lot of his play in bioware, nearly non-existant, not saying much that's useful (but stuff that seems useful), I don't like him at all.
Vote: Sir bed
I'm down to lynch him, Pierre, or Dastrn today I think, preferably sir bed.
I like his voting history, it speaks of an aggressive player that's willing to start wagons and is confident in his reads, his pushing too hard is due to him being too confident in my opinion, and the only reason I'd raise my eyebrow is if he caught the abductor with one of these reads since mafia will have 2 confirms as opposed to 1.
Ok, so thoughts (mad busy recently, but no johns).
Before I post my NA analysis, I wanna hear from dastrn or whoever is taking over the slot, regardless of whether the slot is V/LA it stinks like year old cheese, so he better give us something useful because his content has been sorely lacking.
From there, I wanna see if it makes sense from a NA prospective.
In regards to FF...
Firstly, explain this quote:
What do you mean by my offense and defense lacks congruence?
As far as the rest of your case, I find it ironic that EE just commented in bioware how that's my general meta, and I can name a ton of scummers that have a meta like this as town. Those cases completely lacked any real substance, and the fact that people let the lynch slide was completely unacceptable, as was the quick-hammer. I'm not afraid to call BS when people do dumb things in mafia in general.
You have yet to bring any substance to your case.
The ridiculously safe nature of most of your positions also rubs me the wrong way, though your pressure on vocal is good, however he still seems to fall firmly into dumbtown atm.
While I understand, I am unsure if this is a clarification because you legit intended it that way, or essentially a retraction when confronted with your inconsistencies.
Regardless, nobody gets a free pass from my pressure game, regardless of my read on them, mistakes happen, especially since it's just a "leaning town" read.
I'm less comfortable with you, but Vocal should not be the play of the day.
Ok, I understand what you're saying, and the incongruency is part of the same, regardless it's still a matter of you saying that you don't like my attitude, which I dislike.
So, here's EE's quote:
Easy enough to verify if you think I'm misrepresenting the context.
Now then, onto the incongruency, you realize that there's a substantial difference between "this is complete BS" and "I think this is wrong", right?
This game is fuzzy, which is why I said from the beginning that we'd probably need process of elimination to figure out who's scum, people aren't making dramatic tells, so I'm not positive anyone is scum, but i do have a ton of null reads that need to die.
Frankly, you're in that category.
So if it's not obvious that a case against me is BS, I'll treat it similarly.
However if somebody's obvious scum or a case against me has absolutely no substance whatsoever (as Swiss' case did) I have no problem being aggressive about it and calling out BS.
Sort of like your "I don't like your attitude" case. If you wanna get me lynched, you need an actual case, and for now I REALLY don't like your playerslot, you can die toDay.
Look at your positions at the beginning of the day, now tell me which ones brought anything new to the table?
It's getting close to the deadline, I wanna give dastrn's slot time to get replaced before lynching so...
Gah, was almost finished digesting all this info then you had to go and do this vocal?
He's flailing, but I'm pretty sure he's gonna flip town and his flailing is more about his lack of ability in the game as opposed to actually being scum.
FF contributions seem a bit better, minus his scummy case.
Bedevere still needs some rope, badly.
Nade, I really would like to hear the role information that dastrn said he had that suggested that both the abductor and mafia visited swiss last game day.
Would he put an actual scumbuddy here? I wonder. Doesn't tell me if he's mafia or abductor, but noted for potential connections.
Parroting.
Early mention of roleblocker noted, pretty standard role but wanna see if there are any more indications of it.
Mafia theory discussion which doesn't assist town in actually catching scum, so essentially a distraction.
X1 vote feels odd. Potential vocal buddying here.
Why so much vocal love?
The x1 roxy connection feels odd, potential distancing between x1 and pierre?
Only post that he addressed dangr prior to the abduction... interesting.
Planting his vote on x1 without any real explanation that day, smells of either distancing or potentially a bus.
Also the first mention of the abductor role, noted for future reference.
Also, this is the fir
Pushing towards the abductor, could be forced to push from mafia, or an attempt to allay suspicion that he's the abductor, or a legit question.
It doesn't seem overreaching on it's one though.
Interesting to note a lack of contribution in spite of not having a V/LA of any sort.
And now for FF:
First post of substance.
Interesting to note that in spite of the length it brings very little to the game, since most of it seems parroted.
Also the x1 null read is a substantial change for the slot, interesting.
He also makes a strong point of swiss being hard to read.
Case with no real substance, attitudes over actions.
Why so eager to peg somebody as the abductor, and why so sure?
Also note that 4 minutes later, x1 jumps on.
Again, attitude over substance strikes me, why's does he seem so sure?
Maybe he knows something we don't?
Now maintaining 2 attacks based primarily on attitudes as opposed to substance, why so sure about vocal?
Noted.
Continues hammering at bedevere/vocal/myself scum, totally ignores x1. Posted no real substance about them beyond attitudes until now with vocal yet seems so sure. I'd expect an experienced scummer to have posted substance on those cases rather then a bunch of hogwash.
Now he's absolutely positive bedevere is the abductor, there's a good reason in his posts but this is lylo, why throw down a vote so early in the day?
Interesting, he seems to be trying to maintain me as a viable lynch for later even though he's POSITIVE that abductor is bedevere. Again, I'm thinking that he knows more then we do. He strongly implies he's willing to lynch me toDay, even though it seems pretty clear I'm note.
Conclusion: FF is scummy overall and has some potential potential abductor slips, but in the overall body of evidence they don't seem strong enough to suggest that he's trying to build a "definitely not abductor" impression, and is instead trying to do two things:
1. Get town away from finding mafia.
2. Kill the abductor who is just as dangerous to mafia as town.
Secondly, why was i so strongly on the table last game day, but not on the table anymore? What changed? Why is he so sure it's sir bedevere not, and why go out of his way to push so hard for vocal when there wasn't really substance to the wagon? He definately takes a major risk with putting himself out there so far and drawing a lot of attention.
Scum knowledge mistake, there was an abduction every night and if scum has a roleblocker or some other role that can prevent abductions each night, it means that scum could narrow down their abduction choices. Consider that dastrn was also leaning scum in his initial catch-up post, but he ended up dead, after the events of yesterday, would town have lynched Nabe?
Considering that Pierre mentioned a roleblocker extremely early in the game before there was any indication whatsoever via night actions and he definitely eliminated me as a lynch choice for today I think FF or his scumbuddy (which would only work if his scumbuddy was X1) is a mafia roleblocker and has been eliminating potential abductor targets one by one.
Yesterday he presumably had vocal, dastrn/nabe, sir bedevere, and myself as abductor suspects, and at some point he had roleblocked OS and X1 or roleblocked OS and X1 is his scumbuddy.
Lynch vocal, kill nabe, RB me, but there's still an abduction, whose left? Bedevere is our remaining potential abductor.
FrozenFlame is probably mafia, and out of the players in the game the potential buddies in order of likelyness are:
Don't like the fakeclaim at all, sounds like backtracking cause he got caught in a lie. Why didn't you reveal this yesterday when OS started making it pretty obvious that you were lying?
As far as why mafia didn't kill sir bed (now that we know he's not a cop), four easy options:
1. Mafia has a roleblocker (which is you check my analysis, seems pretty obvious).
2. He's mafia.
3. Mafia realized he wasn't a cop.
4. A ton of doubt was thrown on him in the last few days, mafia might think he's an easy kill.
As far as claiming order.
FF
X1
Dangr
Me
FF and sir bed are independently incredibly scummy, thing is I doubt they're both mafia because of their interaction in mylo and their lack of connections in their overall gameplay. I'm more inclined to believe FF is mafia then sir bevedere atm.
I'm in class atm, I took a moment out to check the game, didn't notice that OS was in the last vote count already.
I don't think it's fabricated though, noobtown tend to be hesitant to kill people that they're not sure are scum, and the "no lynch is cool" is trademark noobtown.
Stop it, giving up accomplishes nothing, you still have an obligation to help fulfill your wincon (which I'm pretty sure is town based on your play so far) . You have your mistakes pointed out to you, so rather then drowning in them, you know what you can do? LEARN.
My first game I was as bad at this as you are (maybe worse cause I refused to accept the remote possibility that I was wrong and refused to accept any advice). Then I got a hard kick to the teeth that I was being dumb as a rock and made a firm purpose of amendment to fix my play using the advice I had previously ignored as the centerpiece of my attempt to fix it. I didn't exactly manage to turn it around, but I improved my play enough to win my second game as a pro-town indy (hunter) and I got an MVP for the the game after the next game I played on the site.
So, at the very least, assuming you don't get vigged tonight, TRY. If you do, join a newbie game or hydra with an experienced player.
I almost always refresh to avoid getting ninja'd. I wanted to avoid people jumping on after I voted, so my attempt was to make people aware of the votecount.
But thanks for the idea I'll keep it in mind for future reference when putting somebody to L-1.
*thinks back*
Oh wait, I think I know what you're talking about, I don't remember OS saying you were V/LA and I don't have the time to recheck cause my train will be here in 5 minutes.
But lets assume that you're correct for a second and OS did say you were V/LA and I said something like "no point in pressuring swiss".
If so, how does it show any clear pattern of parroting?
Especially considering I disagreed with OS on a number of points.
Working on it, I think I figured something useful out but I need to reread nabe and dastrn to be sure, so NA analysis to follow when I have this thoroughly researched.
Ok, so I REALLY hate dastrn now, lying town are so hard to analyze post-flip.
Initially I thought his post about swiss on 659 showed that he jailkept, then i checked around a bit more.
This post sort of made me suspicious:
And then we have Nabe specifically say that he didn't have such a result on swiss:
This suggests that dastrn was explicitly lying, and planted a false breadcrumb... ****ing dumb***.
So, I analyzed his positions and looked at who he was most likely to protect.
2 townpicks, and out of these 2, one of them is clearly more useful to town, who would he protect here?
Going from that angle, who was the clear NK choice? OS was pretty obvious town at that point while town had yet to acknowledge it openly as a whole, and managed to get him to l-1 the same day, making him a non-obvious protect choice in spite of this.
Given the combination of him being a strong NK target at the time, and the jailkeeper having him as a townpick, I can say that the most likely cause of the no kill was that OS was jailkept that day.
Since jailkeeper would block abduction, that would make OS not the abductor, so I don't think OS is the abductor.
Unfortunately since all I really have to go on is townpicks and how it lined up with a NK choice (and how he didn't target swiss) I have no option for N1. Furthermore, Nabe didn't seem to drop any breadcrumbs for his target last night, and didn't even really give a good town/scum list, so I don't see anything to analyze.
Ok, did I miss anything?
As far as are remaining people, I think both bedevere and FF are scum, my next project is to ISO both of them and see who needs to die toDay, and who needs to die tomorrow.
This is... a very odd situation, the thing is, sir bedevere's claims feels legit. Especially after he called me a godfather when he went for a lynch. Playing a cop poorly, he's only played a few games after all.
But FF's tells are very strong, he's far too methodical in his choices, which leads me to suggest an alternative possibility, maybe roleblocking/jailkeeping doesn't effect the abductor.
I'm tending to believe Bedevere's claim at the moment, he dropped some good breadcrumbs and being called a godfather makes sense now, but doing an extensive reread of Overswarm for right now and figuring it out.,
My thoughts from yesterday about the possibility of the abductor being immune to RBing of any sort still hold, and no, I haven't gotten to parsing the content from today yet, it will be factored in at the end of my reread.
Actually, noticed that you said that it doesn't last game day, rushed post there, had to catch a train. I have an idea, but i need to think on it a bit to fully form it, I'll get back to you guys hopefully when i get out of work.
Bedevere SAID you were mafia cause he said that was the cop investigation, I don't remember you actually CLAIMING mafia. Maybe I missed it, admittedly, been a bit distracted recently (already explained the issue that caused my specific absence to Hilt and I'll explain it to you privately OS), but I don't think I would've missed that (feel free to point it out though). You claiming mafia changes things.
I don't believe you overswarm, I know your meta as mafia, I can almost always read you like a book, but I've never encountered indie overswarm before so this accounts for my lack of a solid read here. Also, there's no way I'm gonna believe that wagon that almost lynched you wasn't mafia supported.
I'll do a reread just to be sure, but now I'm almost positive that you're lying, and sir bedevere is telling the truth. Still, FF is obvious-scum, so he's probably a godfather (which mean's that bedevere gets guilty on indies, good to know).
My internet didn't crap out, I was in an area where I didn't have access to wireless and frankly I had far more important concerns then mafia so I didn't seek out a way to get internet.
Don't worry, I don't think I'm gonna have to disappear again any time soon, but if it happens I doubt I'll lose my phone again, so at the very least, I'll be able to drop in and vote.
But now is not the time to be lazy.
I'm rereading basically this entire game for the 3rd time so far, both of you, make cases on each other. OS make a case as to why you're mafia as well.
That's just it, the vast majority of the game I've been paying very careful attention to you. The only place I didn't really read heavily was between bedevere's claim and the current set of posts, and there are particular tells that you do as mafia, tells you haven't made.
Bedevere never had a vote on me, like a smart townie in lylo, he withheld his vote for a while which meant that you COULDN'T vote me off.
However, I don't like this particular post at all, because it's dismissing the practicality of withholding your vote in lylo to avoid quickhammers, and using the fact that he didn't do something that would allow a quickhammer as a "case", which at the same time is a subtle encouragement for him to throw his vote on me.
Here's the thing, I'm not sure he would. Sir Bedevere did well in MxC, but I've been rather unimpressed with him in subsequent games.
Tried to be too smart for your own good perhaps, I can see you as the type to wiform it up.
You do bring up some good points as to why it might be a gambit, he never explained why he thought i might be the godfather that early. A number of other things can be explained by simple incompetence, but that sticks out like a sore thumb.
Hmmm, I'm starting to wonder if you're both lying about your claims, GAH I need more time.
Let me put it this way, if you accidentally clear somebody, at least you can still nightkill them. If I believe you're the abductor and you die today, you've lost the game. Which is worse, giving information that will clear you from being the abductor and could potentially help town in the endgame or dying now and losing automatically?
Guaranteed loss vs. potential loss, which will you pick?
Cause if I still believe you're the abductor, you're gonna lose no matter what, if you give me too much information when proving you're mafia, just the potential exists.
Lemme give it to you straight, I consider the possibility that both of you are fake-claiming to be legitimate at this point, but fakeclaiming mafia as town means that you're guaranteeing town's loss because next game day is mylo whereas a cop fakeclaim wouldn't guarantee your faction's loss regardless of what the faction was. Sir Bed fakeclaiming means he's probably mafia or the abductor, possibly town (given this game's love of lying townies and how he was about to get lynched which would've ended the game in his disfavor if he were anything but the abductor). You on the other hand, could only be the abductor if you fakeclaimed.
But you're both in the potential loss category for me, I just think you're more likely to make me actually lose.
Speaking of which, I've come up with an interesting theory that explains why you would wanna kidnap FF, see, while your mafia claim doesn't ring true, I can see definite indications that you were trying to act like your mafia meta, planning to claim mafia in lylo all along perhaps.
Abducting suspected mafia members would then be the logical choice, in case they picked up on your plan or CC'd you when you claimed it in lylo. FF was obviously mafia, so as an abductor planning to claim mafia, you had to abduct him.
Leaving me around till lylo was a bad choice OS, I know you too well.
I've come to this conclusion, Bedevere, you are probably lying, however if overswarm is lying, it's irrelevant as far as lynching the abductor, because if OS is lying, the only possible reason is because he's the abductor.
You'd claim unprovoked cause it gains you more credibility in a lylo situation.
Actually, assuming he's mafia is unnecessary, all I need is that you THOUGHT he was likely mafia.
Except it hasn't the abductor's interest is ultimately just to survive, and one person who you're sure will not vote for you is much stronger in lylo, then two maybes.
Sir Bedevere is probably lying, but him lying doesn't make him the abductor, you lying does.
If you've dealt
You thought I was in your court all game and to be fair, I was until now.
Claiming without provocation helps your credibility.
Player who also happened to be incredibly likely to be mafia also.
I don't think sir bed would hammer before I get back, he's inexperienced, but he knows not to quickvote in lylo.
But you thought I was solidly in your corner, that would make me being in lylo a significant advantage.
So sir bed is most likely lying. I agree with you on that, but you lying means you're the abductor, so I don't see a reason to concentrate on sir bed for now.
Interesting comment, because on of the reasons this doesn't match up with your mafia meta is because you AREN'T trying to run this game.
This game reeks of you TRYING to look like your scum play, but none of your actual scum play
Gah, I'm out of time on this, most likely they're both lying, but OS lying makes him abductor guaranteed, Bed's lying makes him likely scum at this point so...
Currently V/LA (which has stood the entire semester btw), I'm gonna be done with school very soon, in the meantime, I should have a post on this up very soon.
Where is FF though? He said he was gonna start contributing mondayish.
Not so much lurking as juggling finishing up final projects and studying with trying to eek out a post.
And why would I coordinate?
Regardless, Sir Bed is scum via crossvoting, every other scumteam would be able to alpha strike me and win.
As for why he didn't kill me, simple, I was pushing for FF as obvious-scum, something I still believed up until sir bed was confirmed scum via crossvoting, confirmed scum still holds a lot more weight then NA analysis. If FF is his scummate, he considered himself in a better position and could pull off a strong bus and then kill game next night. If FF is town, then he was hoping that I would lay a vote on him early on so they could alpha strike. I don't know which it is atm, their interactions don't strongly suggest scumteam, so figuring out a scummate requires a lot more analysis. Leaning towards dangr because of the lie, though unsure if it's just inexperience.
How? Explain please.
Your buddying accusation is completely ridiculous, again this is one of the scummiest things about you, by saying "saying somebody is town is buddying" you have given yourself cause to go after everyone in the game. Maybe if you were just wrong about mafia theory I could believe it, but pretty much everyone here has said that somebody is a town read, why am I the only person you've been going after with this accusation? You're inconsistently applying it, suggesting an ulterior motive.
Also, no. That only works if they get lynched.
Because there were more relevant targets at the time, pierre was just inactive until later, not scummy.
Unless you have some proof, that's definite WIFORM, keep in mind I was a primary target a short time ago, could easily be mafia searching for a myslynch, or he could legitimately believe it. Furthermore his case against Vocal was for similar reasons, attitude over content. Was vocal his scumbuddy too?
And why was I so willing to start a wagon on him at a time when there was pretty much a vacuum and he was under a fair amount of pressure so he could very easily be lynched? Considering the most players on a wagon at that point was two, why take that risk?
Skim less, I believed OS wasn't the abductor because of NA analysis, I think and still do think that mafia went for OS, not swiss, and he was jailed that night. OS was a far more townie-looking target which made him a far more likely doc target then Swiss was, and also a reasonable mafia target. Kills are often excluded from town roleblocking, and abduction is balanced like a kill, so it makes sense.
As far as d4, you don't seem to realize how epic a mishandling that would be if we were a scumteam, with 2 out of 4 votes, why would we let the day pass when it increased our odds of losing to the abductor so substantially, no lynch could happen without both of us, whereas you seemed very keen to lynch either me or FF and by the end of the day and I certainly couldn't trust OS to just stay in my pocket.
Why no lynch? I could've easily said "we lynch OS" after I came to the conclusion that the abductor was probably OS.
Or, OS lying or not lying was the focus for that day, you agreed with my logic on that already. You would've made it a lot easier by choosing to actually play with your given role as opposed to "fakeclaiming as town" since you were still extremely scummy and had a strong possibility of being the abductor because of that, but saving it till next game day saying "it was to stop the abductor" makes it much easier from a town-cred prospective. Furthermore OS was poking mile-wide holes in your claim easily enough.
And you know, I had things like this:
And it's not like my suspicions of OS came out of the aether, my statements here before OS claimed mafia, specifically the RB immune, merely by process of elimination because you seemed like such a cop.
Here:
Also, my first post the next day involved saying that I still believed your claims cause the crumbs were legit, but hadn't read up yet:
My first few posts in D5 again strongly suggested this:
Keep in mind, I NEVER quickvote as town in lylo, I want as much information as possible, and if that means dragging the day along, I sure as heck will, even if I think somebody is most likely one way or the other. That saved you in mylo btw, I was on my computer, waiting for my date to meet me, and I could've easily tossed a vote down, but I didn't, because I've learned the cardinal rule of lylo, take as long as you can. Only reason I'd do it is confirmed scum.
Furthermore, I'd like to add that I
But do you know what really seals it for me? (even if I didn't have cross-voting)
Your quickvote.
Yesterday OS was hammering away at you suspecting me strongly, but never having a vote on me (you pretty much said essentially that you were sure that you had lost).
Today, you seemed to have the same level of sureness of me being mafia, but you chose to lay a vote on me early on.
Why? Because yesterday you weren't absolutely sure me dying would win you the game, so you waited. Today, you know that me dying will win you the game, so you're "sure I'm scum". Aka, you're mafia.
Lets not be hasty, sir bed is the only confirmed scum cause I'm not sure Dangr isn't doing this out of simple inexperience, we've already had a lying townie so I don't wanna dismiss the possibility yet, especially since he didn't get caught in a lie, he admitted he fakeclaimed.
One thing that bothers me about your case, what do you mean by saying that targeting swiss would clear both him and swiss. How would he know to target swiss?
Seems the most likely scumbuddy after review, but not necessarily.
True. Unfortunately that doesn't eliminate any suspects. Maybe after we kill one mafia it would.
Fair enough, but what would he gain by claiming VT, then switching it to doctor.
Unless FF isn't scum, as I pointed out his pattern strongly suggests process of elimination, roleblocker is by far the most common scum role that could achieve that.
Why would a town jailer make me doubt the existence of a scum roleblocker?
@FF: Care to respond to my iso's conclusions?
@Dangr: Care to make a case for why you're the doc?
True. Unfortunately that doesn't eliminate any suspects. Maybe after we kill one mafia it would.
Fair enough, but what would he gain by claiming VT, then switching it to doctor.
Unless FF isn't scum, as I pointed out his pattern strongly suggests process of elimination, roleblocker is by far the most common scum role that could achieve that.
Why would a town jailer make me doubt the existence of a scum roleblocker?
@FF: Care to respond to my iso's conclusions?
@Dangr: Care to make a case for why you're the doc?
Is what I said above^ what you mean by crossvoting? If so, uh, it only proves that there's scum between us, lol. I know you're mafia now.
You're right, I never responded to it, I missed it way back then, but it's easy to respond to now.
Recklessness is a town-tell, there are exceptions, but in general scum doesn't like drawing attention to themselves. Joining wagons is a good way to stay under the radar, but STARTING them isn't.
Swiss was starting wagons left and right, not being very discriminating, he was definitely reckless to the point that I don't see an experienced scum player like swiss doing it, because if somebody flipped town, he'd be under way too much pressure.
I've been saying you need to die since D2 dude, that's not light pressure. I don't need to constantly be asking you stuff in order to have a committed stance on you.
Because you're choosing to interpret something fundamentally neutral as inherently scummy. FF's case was definitely scummy, it lacked any semblance of actual content and could've easily been opportunism based on the fact that I was in hot water last game day.
Again, why did I try to get him lynched as a result of that?
Arguments about how a new player would act mentally playing a role like the abductor are just as subjective and safe as using meta because there's no real data on this, it's just what "makes sense" to the players, and any behavior out of the ordinary can be used.
Look at my record of metaing OS. You were in bioware, you remember how confident I was in my read of OS. Also read BIM 2, I pegged him as a bomb easy. I can point to others, as well as games that I haven't played in and just hit OS up and said, "hey dude, you [insert proper alignment here]", with occasionally realizing what role he was.
I understand how he thinks ridiculously well, because of that I'm very confident in my ability to meta him.
Firstly, you're totally wrong. 2-1-9 is VERY protown, so interference with pro-town roles is probably the reason why there'd be a jailer in the first place.
As for roleblockers... no, check out bioware again, that was a major topic of discussion (turned out I effectively couldn't).
Read my iso, I established it quite well.
Which assumes OS would abduct you, considering you were the most suspicious player that day... that's pretty ridiculous. It would have been either me or FF, and OS was setting up for his mafia claim, he was much more likely to be mafia, so OS picked him.
When one of us would obviously be targeted by the abductor? Both you and OS were under suspicion at that point, especially after I pointed out the possibility of roleblocking not affecting the abductor.
You had good breadcrumbs? Why would you saying I'm innocent make me believe your copclaim if I were mafia? Since we're all claimed up and there are no cops, I couldn't have been a godfather.
Because you still were scummy as ****. Simple.
Dude, OS poked far worse holes in your argument then you did in the reverse. Reread the day, your claim of me as a godfather prior to when you said you investigated me was crushing for example.
Easy, town cred. You think it would grant you a lot more credibility for you to reverse your claim now rather then reverse it as a perceived reaction to the mile wide holes poked in your story.
Town doesn't care about how townie their actions are percieved, just how townie they are.
Check your iso, so much scummyness. There's a reason why everyone is willing to lynch you today.
Ok... why?
Seriously, there's nothing ludicrous about sacking a scumteam member to defeat somebody that will defeat mafia automatically.
Cause unlike you, I have another scum to find, I don't want you dead until as late in the day as possible.
And now you're using OS' argument... awesome.
OS voted yesterday because he was sure that him voting you would win him the game, seems that you are too, only yesterday you were still unsure enough to not vote for me in spite of spending all that time wailing about how you were gonna lose when I got back.
Why is your behavior so different now? Because there's a fundamental difference here, you don't require additional information to be sure of whose scum.
You seemed to have missed the part about how I want to get your buddy before you die.
And you voted on the 14th, 6 days to deadline, and upon announcing that I was your target.
Except from what you presented yesterday you were just as sure I was the abductor yesterday. Both times you said that derived that level of suspicion.
Except it's not a weak argument, and framing it as such just makes you look worse. Swiss is too experienced a scum to make such an elementary mistake, hence he was town using the basic attack manuever vote-hopping.
And far stronger players then you use townie recklessness as as a reason to believe somebody's town at a far higher level. Look at this game, specifically rhinox and incognito. EMP proposed a massclaim, which is inherently a great deal scummier then starting wagons a lot.
Frankly, what's scummy about starting wagons a lot? Explain this to me.
Also, you ENTIRELY forget, there was still an abductor on the loose. Even assuming I was mafia, what reason would I have to clear swiss unless I believed he was town? I wouldn't know ANYBODY was town for sure until toDay as mafia.
V/LA, remember? Like I've been this entire game.
I voted you over pierre cause Pierre was a nullread, he's an inactive and that's what gave me his read, but scum read takes priority over null.
Inactives need to be pressured into giving you a read, scum reads need to be lynched.
And I'm sorry that you dislike meta, but the reality is meta is used near universally in the game. You arguing that using meta is scummy essentially, but that again gives you an open invitation to start cases on just about everyone.
I see somebody do something as scum, they continue doing it. That suggests scum. Plus, it forces a person I think is scummy to defend themselves, if they are scum, usually this results in more scumslips.
And what in our patterns SHOWS that it was actually distancing as opposed just "I thought he was scum" and kept him as a target.
LIES.
I NEVER switched to the vocal bandwagon from my attempted bandwagon on FF.
As far as not-mafia cred, you can use that for any scum lynch, but the vast majority of time the extra town-cred doesn't outweigh the extra day you need. Especially considering that bussing leaves signs that townies can pick up, especially when mafia starts the wagon.
So, unless you have proof, you've just given yourself licence to push anyone mafia lynch as bussing. Where's the evidence that this was a bus.
I said I'd hammer if it was that or a no lynch, and it was definitely possible vocal was flailing scum cause a lot of what he said was scummy.
I never placed my vote on vocal, never actually agreed that Vocal was scum, and never endorsed the wagon.
What I did was realize that a wagon failed to take off, I looked at alternatives to make sure there was a lynch, and then pushed him again next game day.
Which is again, you pushing a conspiratorial spin on something without proving it.
Pulling back on a meta case is no less easy then on a case based on the logical tendencies of a role or any other form of content. Unless you give a good reason why you're pulling back your case, it looks particularly scummy because you're saying that it's cause you know how a player thinks.
Also... why are you misrepresenting so many things?
My case on FF was based on how vacuous and scummy his case on me was, I didn't even touch on meta.
Why?
I was a primary lynch target, people were looking for excuses to lynch me, if I responded badly or didn't turn it on it's head, odds were I would've gotten lynched.
And why was Swiss' push for OS guaranteed to fail? It got him to l-1.
NO! Not "if I say so", you at the very least should be able to admit that you were wrong on this point.
IIRC I provided a source for this well before by pointing to either the large vs. small thread (which linked to a post by hoopla explaining the various balances in great depth, she's one of the premiere mafiascum game designers btw) or I linked directly to the post in question on mafiascum. Either way I'll link.
Bioware is very easy to find again.
I provided sources and evidence, you provide pure theories with no evidence whatsoever. How like the entire rest of your case.
Your case reads much more like you trying to use any semantic edge to prove you're right them a case you actually believe, hence why you won't even admit points that are STARING YOU IN THE FACE.
And no, "if you say so" is not and admission, it's a wiggle phrase to drop a point you're obviously losing without losing face.
It's certainly possible he would've, but odds were we would've lost at least one mafia if it was between me, you, and FF. Why would I take that risk?
Except I could've just backread and looked at the massive holes in your claim.
My saying that you have good breadcrumbs meant I wasn't gonna push for your lynch at the time, it didn't bind me when you claimed. I could've said, "your pattern doesn't match up with a cop, vote sir bed" and been done with you.
Or claimed miller which is actually relatively common in copless games because it provides both advantages and disadvantages to town which seems to fit the overall theme of most of this game. The advantage obviously being that you can catch fakeclaiming cops with it.
Why didn't I do that if I were mafia? Part of it had to be that your claim made sense.
Again, lies. I never said that you could get guilty only on indies, just that you might get guilty on both. Instead I said that FF might be a godfather, then your results would make sense.
And you didn't get an innocent on FF until the next day, why would that have stopped me from hammering when I was in a good position to do so?
1. Because it was way outside of your pattern (since it was the only non-serious thing you did.
2. Because based on context it didn't seem like a joke at all, so quite frankly I don't believe you. You can claim ANYTHING is a joke and try to get a pass for it.
Simple, townies don't care how their actions are PERCEIVED, they just wanna do things that help their faction win. If they are actually very pro-town their actions should be perceived as such yes, and if they aren't, they should be able to point to a pro-town motivation under pressure, beyond avoiding the noose of course.
That's one of the core differences between scum and town, scum are trying to be perceived as town whereas town are just trying to help town. As such doing actions that are obviously intended to be perceived as town are scummy if they don't have a clear pro-town motivation, or obviously the individual is manipulating the situation to make himself appear more pro-town.
This is actually why recklessness is a town-tell.
All the points still stand, you've been wagony as heck the entire game, loved dropping out of sight all the time, etc. Cop claim took out some, but with that gone, all the points in regards to you being scummy stand, and it's just the new points I brougt up here.
Er, yea he did explain why he did it, to "make sure the abductor got lynched".
But as of my reread, his case for him being mafia was more solid then your case for being cop by a mile.
Actually let me ask everyone at the end of the post. It was obvious to you because I was confirmed not-abductor by cross-voting, which left only OS. I didn't have that luxury of having a confirmed not abductor so I had to be cautious.
Plus, the more information OS pressured out of you the better for figuring out lylo tomorrow anyway.
How does that even relate to what I said?
I said that I wanna use the entire day cause I wanna get as much information as possible which will allow me to be more likely to catch mafia toMorrow.
You however, don't seem to care about toMorrow, cause if you lynch somebody not on your side today you win anyway I guess and if you don't win it was because you got lynched.
So all all voting arguments are the same?
Anyone notice how he's giving a wide berth to lynch literally everyone in the game?
My argument was that you defied a prior pattern, so something had to have changed.
Your argument is that a townie should quickvote in lylo if they strongly believe somebody is scum (which applies to you last game day of course, but it's irrelevant because it's a poor argument, lylo voting is one of the areas where recklessness is not a town-tell).
WIFORM has a specific meaning, it only applies in cases where interpretations are equally likely.
This is a case where there's a clear scum desire, and also a difference in patterns between a day that you would've had a town mentality (you need to find and lynch scum) and a day that you could've either had a scum or town mentality.
And there's a stall, I think we can throw this in as another blatant misrepresentation. The reality of the situation is that pretty everyone is willing to lynch you atm because you're incredibly scummy and even your partner wouldn't risk defending you. We're just trying to use the rest of the day in hopes that you or your partner will give us some information that will help toMorrow.
6 days is about half a day phase, and you're telling me it wasn't a quickvote.
Heck, up until then you were just responding to me, you didn't form a case.
Exactly the type of response I expected.
This time you're "not wrong" because you know lynching me will win you the game today.
---
ISOin' dat adum
So... deciding to watch somebody because they won't let you find meta on them at all is distancing?
I wasn't even suspicious of him here, I use *narrows eyes* as "I'll be keeping my eye on you".
That was avoiding the spotlight? Saying I don't think I look like the most pro-town player and that it seems like an obvious buddying attempt is trying to avoid the spotlight? I asked him to justify his assertions.
You don't avoid the spotlight by pressuring people to explain why they said unusual things (remember, I was very inactive at that point in the game), you avoid it by not taking stances on people, not pushing against town, and limiting your posts to as little as you can to get by.
Granted, the last one could apply to me, but I had a legitimate V/LA and my activity pattern was essentially the same in all the games I played regardless of my flip (this is the only game from that point where I haven't flipped, 3 were town, one was mafia). I'm pretty sure that's it. They were Fi****own mafia, bioware mafia, dgames mafia, SitMOA Mafia, this game obviously.
So how was I avoiding the spotlight?
How so? Read the context, X-1 decided on me and Pierre because he said we had done nothing scummy so far.
The choice was consistent since neither of us had done anything really scummy at that point, mainly cause we were inactive.
But inactives need to be prodded for stances, which is what I did with Pierre.
Again, context. Pierre had no real scumtells at that point and established himself as a strong player. Yet, he vanished. Lurkers are very difficult to get reads on and easy fodder in lylo for scum, hence I halfway wanted to lynch him to off a lurker.
Ok, so how else are we gonna get a read on them, you tell me.
As for why not roxy? Cause I didn't think of pressuring roxy.
Context again, what she said was ridiculously scummy and joining bandwagons for good reasons is not a scumtell (unless you're on like every wagon and picking the safest place to join).
Context, why would an abductor/mafia wanna remove an incredibly inactive slot that would be easy lynching fodder later in the game?
Which is only a scumtell if that's all you do.
1. Heh? You were non-existent until much later in the game, doing the minimium to get by. Where are these stances that you've been taking up to that point?
2. Because you were scummy, he was inactive. Dastrn I couldn't make heads or tales of, mainly because of his inactivity. Think about the context, I had few scum reads, so my first target would be a scummy player of course, but if I can't, wouldn't it be time to dip into the null reads?
How is this avoiding the spotlight? If anything it makes me very visible when I do this.
Except you haven't come up with a shred of evidence that me failing to lynch FF was because I chose not to. Look at the wagons, was Pierre/FF ever a favored lynch target? In spite of the heavy push I gave the wagon just didn't take.
Me not achieving something in spite of my best efforts to the contrary, hmmm, reminds me of my favorite scummy argument.
KevinM used it to get me lynched in Code Geass.
Gheb used it to try to get me lynched in Bioware.
Both mafia, I wonder why?
Failing to achieve something in spite of your best efforts is not a scumtell, if you believe I wasn't pursuing the lynch to the best of my efforts, then give some evidence.
How so? I clearly pushed for FF and attempted to start a bandwagon, but if that didn't take off, I said I'd be willing to lynch you.
Saying "I'm voting for this guy, but I'd be willing to kill this guy" doesn't mean that you'd be able to switch off if the wagon takes off. Just the opposite in fact, it commits you to that wagon if it takes off, and also commits you to another wagon if the one you're on doesn't take off. It wasn't safe at all, it's the opposite.
BSL was fine, Dangr you just asked "why did they take him away", BSL was a question for analysis, Dangr was just railing.
Why would town perform classic scumtells? There's no reason for town to rail at the NA results.
Did you not notice my FF conclusion where I said that X-1 was the most likely scummate?
I did, however for X-1 to be scum now, both he and FF would need to be scum, since there are only 2 mafia remaining, and we're confirmed via cross-voting x-1 is town.
Explained already.
If it's a choice between you dying or a no lynch, you should die. One of the few acceptable places to self-hammer unless you're a pr because you substantially decrease town's overall odds of winning.
So, you've been on... every major wagon throughout the game. And you went into them with minimal reasoning as well.
Exactly.
Simple, because one of major reason I picked you as abductor and him as mafia was because you had much fewer potential mafia connections. You did a good job there, true. But you still didn't manage to maintain the not-scum fascade very well.
Also, FF's analysis was devoted a lot more to comparing NAs with voting patterns which by nature, requires more details.
TL;DR:
Your case is composed of:
1. "Why'd you clear Swiss so easily", in spite of the fact that I only put him as leaning town? (when you clearly thought he was town at around the same time for reasons you never explained why, why's he so scummy now, but not before)
2. "Every interaction between Adum and Pierre/FF is distancing/bussing" without an explanation.
3. "You took too long to figure out that OS was the abductor, obviously you were trying to pretend you weren't scum", except he was convinced I was the abductor before so it couldn't have been that obvious, and he had it confirmed by cross-voting so of course he knew, whereas I had every incentive to take my time.
4. "These other people did this scummy stuff too", even though it was clear that the circumstances were different, mostly due to sheer volume.
5. "You don't have your vote on me yet", a case OS just used on him yesterday, even though I explained why clearly, and he has yet to poke a hole in that reasoning.
He's flailing, and he has a number of lies and significant misrepresentation there.
Furthermore his ISO doesn't take into account context AT ALL.
Furthermore, he ISO 16 out of 83 posts I've made, 16. Granted I didn't touch posts that told me nothing either way, but can you honestly say that you can believe that a little less then 20% of my posts told him something about my alignment? Furthermore, he didn't include a single post that according to his interpretation suggested anything other then his conclusion.
That's cherry-picking, there is no legitimate effort to actually find anything scummy, he's just searching my posts for things he can spin as pro-scum.
His reasoning is also simply horrible and it's pretty obvious he's not being intellectually honest here, that he's looking looking for excuses to lynch without actually making a good faith effort to figure it out.
Why? Cause he already knows who the scum are.
Now, he could say that this is after I've been confirmed as scum to him, but then why'd he loss in a vote against me IF HE DIDN'T ALREADY HAVE AN IRON-CLAD case?
@everyone: Was it obvious to you guys that OS was the abductor?
@Dangr: Yes, it's technically possible that we're both a scum team, but does any evidence exist to back up that assertion? There's plenty of evidence that sir bed is scum, but I see nothing that suggests we're scummates or that I'm scum period.
Derailing a wagon with two days left and not presenting a viable alternative... what did you expect it to be taken as? Whether you intended it or not, that's what it was effectively?
Do you have a better wagon target? If so who and why?
Vocal, that's not wiform, that's just bad reasoning, all you're doing is putting a scum spin on actions without explaining why they're INHERENTLY scummy.
Also, what's this with him only being able to get a read on sir bed, he said that he already knows at least basically why the others are on him even though swiss makes him feel weird, hence he says he's picking on the person that he thinks he can get info from.
This wagon grew way too fast, mafia's either on it or doing nothing to stop it which makes me doubt OS is mafia (doesn't do much about the abductor possibility though) unless it's a bus which i strongly doubt at this stage, and I strongly suspect that at least 1 scum is on his wagon, probably more.
So... why are we bringing people to l-1 with no case whatsoever?
As I detailed last game day, sir bedevere is still the scummiest player in the game, so unless a better target presents itself later in the day, yes.
@Dastrn: Stop just being cryptic about your power and actually contribute, if you're gonna claim a PR, do it. But even if you do, this does not excuse your total lack of contribution. Being busy is understandable, but you need to make quality posts when you do post if you are.
More later today (probably when I'm in class), early week is a **** for me.
So after being comfortable with me all game you switch to placing me in the scum category without any substantial reason?
Way to make the cases against you seem to hold weight, it certainly reads like scum jumping on a convenient target to distract pressure from themselves, I think you deserve a reread.
Unless you have a legitimate explanation for the sudden change of heart, care to make a case?
No dead people posting on the topic please, wait for the post-game.
X1 and vocal, reviewed them and here's my thoughts.
Vocal seems town, trying to draw out as much information as possible, but using the wrong methods so it's getting distracting (nothing wrong with pressuring inactives though as long as it's not the only thing you do). It could be a scum ploy, but Vocal doesn't seem to have the experience required to pull it off. Noobtown read.
X1: Null read for the moment, but I want him to keep talking.
Swiss, seems to be making some good contributions, so I'm ok with him for now.
@X1: Possibly, not sure whether what vocal was trying to do was really buddying, but regardless, it fits noobtown.
So, lemme ask you this, what do you think of Dastrn at the moment? What about Vocal? Who do you think is currently the most pro-town player?
Claim and give a good reason why we shouldn't lynch you.
NOBODY HAMMER YET!
*facepalm*
No, statistically a no-lynch is the most anti-town ending for a given day if there's an odd amount of players and one NK (and usually it is the most anti-town ending though there are situations where it's optimal to skip a lynch to reduce the lynch pool).
Think about it this way, the fewer people, the more likely a random lynch will hit scum, furthermore if we skip a lynch we are losing a resource that we can never get back which is one chance at getting scum.
Town needs a lynch, a no lynch D1 is the most anti-town result we can get.
Just run the numbers, I can data drop for you, but it's dead obvious if you just think about it.
@everyone: Please answer X1's question, I'd like to see what he has in mind.
Looking at face value, the safer votes on the wagon seem the most likely, X1 passing it off as just parroting especially draws my interests and I don't like sir Bedevere's safe "gut read".
Vocal is still playing dumbtown.
I don't think Swiss is doing this as scum though, way too unsafe cause he makes himself an obvious lynch when you flip town, I think it's more likely he's a townie who thinks he's got a good read.
Gah, wrong answer, what you SHOULD be doing is explaining why they're scummy.
BS case is BS, how have I been parroting OS? My pressure game has primarily been cases that I opened up. I certainly defended OS, but parroting, hell no.
And why is "nobody hammer yet" a classic scumplay? I've dealt with more then a few idiotic quickhammers and seen plenty, and what happened, an idiotic quickhammer.
And again sir bedevere throws support into another another wagon of the moment.
Wait what? I'm confused, why would separating the posts any less inviting for a quickhammer? I would think that having it in the same post would make sure that it was there as early as possible therefore limiting the timeframe that a quickhammer should occur.
Why you skimming swiss? I didn't decline to pressure you when you were V/LA I just wasn't around that much then due to my own crazy schedule. The only thing that could be possibly taken as me declining to pressure you was when I opposed Overswarm to say that you were likely town.
So yes, quotes, and contrast the number of times I agreed with him vs. the times I was doing my own thing or disagreed.
If you're gonna do a reread it's pointless if you're just skimming...
Are you saying that me saying he was town was buddying? I had a read, and I followed it, just like what I've been doing with vocal and just like I do in like every other game I play
Again, this is hunting for patterns in play, compare my play to my other games, do I normally pick out people and declare them town and defend them to the 11th hour as town? I have a number of games on this site to read where you can make a decision.
Huh? Town-hunting? Town-hunting is scumhunting where the players give townie responses.
Because of how many people got on the wagon, difficult to call an individual person out.
Your lending support to the wagon (putting me on your scumlist) was what I was calling you out on.
Ok, here's my bedevere iso, I touched on all the posts which stood out to me as helping give a read.
Sir Bedevere iso:
The agreement is clear skimming and then he admits to skimming.
Town read hard-on for Dangr noted.
Defensiveness with dastrn noted.
This post is odd, it sort of feels like role fishing, but at the same time potential buddying.
Railing at NA results with no analysis of them, classic scumtell.
Choice of Dangr for abduction is interesting.
Concentrating on the abductor so much so early, I find this extremely interesting.
Posts even more material on the abductor and buddying dangr from within abductor-land.
It's good to note that generally abductors do not get affected by doc protects, so it made a great deal of sense for an abductor to attempt to concentrate obvious-townness into his abduction target to create more viable mislynches.
More concentration on the abductor, and I don't like that it's such an afterthought there.
Denying action analysis patterns, hmmm.
Especially since he knows that works, since that's what tied him to TDA and got them both killed in MXC (everyone left here was in that game so you should know).
Wagon jumping on a case with absolutely no substance.
More denial of pattern analysis being useful.
Furthering support for a case with no substance.
Another wagon jump, again no real substance to the case.
No real reasoning to the role assignment either, the only thing it screams is somebody trying to hard to say "no, I'm not the abductor" especially cause there was no reason to believe a godfather was in this game.
Swiss semi-buddying noted.
Very defensive about his wagon-hopping.
Why so sure that Pierre is scum? Again, strikes me as wanting to appear "not-scum" and taking it too far, and since he named him abductor, not-abductor specifically.
The "buddying" accusation is very interesting, seems to be attempting to push townieness on swiss (swiss, town, wtf?) now.
Why so happy about the no lynch? Granted he survived, but a townie should have mixed feelings at best on this.
Especially considering that 3 person lylo would be most effective for taking out the abductor, and his no lynch meant 4 as of that point.
Also, note the swiss abduct.
Saying a townread is buddying somebody... hmmm this gives a wide berth to pick targets for buddying. And why hasn't he called out a number of people for buddying vocal before?
Also, somebody else starts pressure and who jumps on immediately? Sir bed! More scummy wagon jumping. Except for day 1, the only major wagon he hasn't been on is his own.
Admits to wagon jumping, subtely prepares for another case.
Why so hot on the no lynch?
Spreads himself wide so he can potentially lynch anybody.
OS being the most protown and not being abducted OR killed makes sense if he already survived a kill from mafia (like NA suggests) and bedevere doesn't think he seems very protown and therefore thinks can push a lynch on him.
Again, why pushing for a no lynch so hard? He seems pretty obviously scum at this point, but mafia would want the NK. BP abductor or abductor that outprioritizes mafia seems likely. Or potentially just hoping mafia will mess up, one of the two.
More no-lynch stuff, but also says he's cool with a lynch happening and suggests just about everyone is a viable lynch target. Hmmm.
Again, mafia really wants to kill the abductor, if abductor is BP or has priority abductor wants to kill anybody.
Actually, I wonder why FF is so sure too, but I'll work on that in his iso.
Also sir bedevere, you are completely WRONG in terms of game design, 1-2-9 is EXTREMELY pro-town by it's nature because of the cross-kills potential. 1-1-10 even more so, 2-10 has to be almost mountainous (town has no PRs) to be balanced, but most 12 person games are 3-9 which is extremely pro-scum. I don't wanna get too far into this, so if you wanna know more about why, in the thread/poll on large and small games I did a nice post detailing this, and linked to a thread on mafiascum that details this significantly better then I can.
Assuming Hilt made this reasonably balanced or at least tried to, we can expect some significant boosts for scum.
Wondering why he hasn't done this...
Seems fake contribution while trying to appear pro-town and still leaving as many lynch choices open as possible.
Conclusion: Sir Bedevere is almost definably scum and leans very strongly on the abductor end. His actions are extremely scummy, especially the wagon jumping and his jumping on just about everyone's wagons and attempting to leave as many lynches as possible open.
Abductor stems from his early concentration on finding the abductor and his being so sure that certain people are the abductor which screams trying to hard to make sure there's no suspicion that he's the abductor, in addittion to the fact that most abductions have been his strongest townreads at any given time, giving him maneuverability in pushing for mislynches, and none of them have been his scumtargets. Furthermore him pushing a no-lynch screams that he's an abductor that's either BP or has priority (BP more likely, possibly 1 shot) and he's hoping that mafia mis-kills saving himself the trouble of forcing a mislynch. This makes even more sense giving the inherently pro-town nature of the numbers that would need some significant counter-balancing. A possible third explanation is that he wants to see if there are any mafia left.
I don't see a reasonable pro-town explanation for any of those actions, especially given that BP is ALWAYS a possibility and depending on a mafia faction to follow town is just dumb, and given my experience masoned with him, I doubt he'd make that kind of error (inexperience with setup theory is possible though, since this knowledge is relatively uncommon).
Now, onto FF/Pierre, I wanna see if he matches up with this on closer inspection and hopefully I can get some candidates for scumbuddy along the way, hope I get this done before I gotta leave.
ToDay's play seems to show it the best, Bedevere seems to be looking to lynch anybody, and has absolutely nobody off the table. Furthermore his obsessive wagon jumping seems to suggest that he didn't care who died as long as somebody died that wasn't him. His suggestion of no lynching also seems to suggest that he is in fact either a BP abductor or a one shot BP abductor.
Frozenflame on the other hand seems very sure of the Bedevere lynch as abductor. Given his previous scumlists, it seems highly likely that he's eliminating people one by one as potential abductors, and the only other role I could see doing that is a town roleblocker. Given his overall scummyness and the fact that the NK seems to be a perfect choice to eliminate his suspect, the pieces just fit too well for using process of elimination as a method of finding the abductor and dealing with him. I think the reason why he doesn't wanna just RB bedevere and kill him is that he's concerned that it will just result in this day all over again if bedevere is in fact BP and he doesn't wanna leave town with more time to glean information and connections if he can help it.
We should lynch bedevere toDay, and FF toMorrow. Our abductees definitely need a substantial reread before we move on to anyone after that, probably before we deal with FF toMorrow.
Finally done, ok, comments, questions? I especially wanna hear from OS since he seems basically cleared atm.
Because OS punched a hole in your claim a mile wide, make no mistake you were the preferred target of the day, if I didn't know OS well enough that I was pretty much positive I could pick his scum meta up, then you would've been lynched for maintaining the fakeclaim. Even then I made it obvious that I had had substantial doubts and was on a razor's edge as far as who to lynch.
Defending the lie at that point only made it more likely that I would lynch you, and that's why I'm wondering why you would chose to defend it so hard.
Hmmm, interesting, makes sense that OS would've abducted you right after receiving the note, beyond that, need to reread.
Here's the thing, at that point getting the abductor lynched was top priority, and because of your inconsistency was making you essentially fall apart whenever you were asked a pointed question.
OS answered better overall and you were so steeped in scummyness that day that it did make more sense to lynch you, I just knew OS's meta well enough that it pushed him SLIGHTLY above you in terms of abductor possibilities.
Yes, saying you lied would be backtracking, but you were already caught in the lie, and at the very least saying that you were a VT (assuming that you are telling the truth now) would've allowed you to make a consistent argument that you had that role on the basis of past actions, something which you could not do while claiming to be a cop.
Overall, fixing your lie when you were already caught in a lie would've made it a lot more likely that we would've caught the abductor, so why didn't you?
I think I was mostly fair in where I put each post.
The first one is just what it says: posts where adum bumps elbows with FF, and it's the main reason I think he's scummy.
The second one is useless ****, which if you'll notice, is 59 posts. I counted anything that was RVS/contributed nothing/things that told me nothing/mostly useless one-liners, as well as all of D5, since adum didn't have to deal with FF at all, as well as D6 after I voted him, since it's just been him attacking me/defending from me, and he knows I'm aware of his connection to FF.
Third is pressuring, nothing major, but it's things that town or scum could do.
Fourth is actual scumhunting/stances on people that aren't FF.
Discounting useless ****, counting pressuring as half (rounded up cus I'm genourous ), and scumhunting +6 because I missed 6 of his posts somehow (so genourous ), the new total comes to:
14/34, or 41%
That's nearly half his posts. I think my case of him constantly rubbing elbows with FF is justified.
Now, he could say that this is after I've been confirmed as scum to him, but then why'd he loss in a vote against me IF HE DIDN'T ALREADY HAVE AN IRON-CLAD case?
I've already explained my reasons for coming to the conclusion that you and FF are scum: Dan and X1 are town. And I've yet to see you or anyone else say anything against my reasons for believing that they're town. Could you please do that? My beliefs that X1 and Dan are town are just as much a part of my case as my belief that you and FF have been distancing each other all game.
Additionally, voting someone when nothing is happening is something I picked up from Chibo in Sonic mafia. I didn't agree with how he did it in that game, but I think the concept is overall solid: if the game is stalled and something big needs to happen for people to get interested and start posting, vote someone you think is scum and go from there. If you get alphastriked and lose, well, if the Day was half over and nothing was happening, town PROBABLY wasn't going to pull that one out anyway.
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i need sleep/parents will get mad at me if they hear me typing
I have a few more things I want to say/quotes in adum's post I need to respond to, so I'll do that early tomorrow (I'll try to wake up early).
Need to pack and sleep in the meantime. Super essay ISOs require more attention than I can give.
Deadlines in objective LYLO are ****ing horse****. I've said this **** way back when we debated about modkills in LYLO after pokemafia, but too bad people here love to ****ing ****ride deadlines and don't like to change **** even if it's well reasonable and argued for.
Yes I'm bitter.
I'm still skimmer mcgee atm but the more I see from Adum and Bed the more I see them as a scum team. Substantiation to come.
Though I still need to give DanGR another good once over to weigh his potential as mate of either of those two, considering his ridiculous Doc claim in lylo...
X1, doc+jailer is pretty reasonable when there's an abductor on the loose, especially since they both work against the other 2 factions (doc works against mafia, jailer works against abductor, though it also works against mafia but with a cost). I was expecting a ton more power on town's side with an abductor in this small of a game, and DanGR's claim fits (otherwise scum would must have a ton of anti-abductor roles).
Jailer only works against abductor if they actually jail the abductor which is pretty fairly unlikely. Early game town jailer would not try to jail to stop people acting but instead jail to protect, especially since in a game this size jailer + doc is unlikely so jailer would probably think they are the only protective role
Question: What does scumDanGR gain from fakeclaiming doc? Aside from attracting attention to himself and backtracking on important things, things that scum wants to avoid lol. I can't see any motive behind scumDanGR claiming doc, especially when there was barely any pressure on him. Doesn't mean there can't be a motive, and doesn't mean there needs to be one, but as long as it doesn't mean DanGR is autoscum, I'm comfortable enough trusting my reads and logic.
And second, X1 sent his message to FF last Night. FF would have had to receive the message BEFORE sending in the NK in order for him to kill X1 because of him being the agent, and that's not how the role works (FF should have received the note D6, after the kill had already been made).
It allows him to claim last and double-check there isn't another doc. Its also possible that since everyone else claimed VT he thought he'd throw in a powerrole.
Why would a town jailer make me doubt the existence of a scum roleblocker?
2 Roleblocking roles seems a bit anti-abductor do you not think? Also considering the amount of power roles we have (+very few are claimed) why would scum need a roleblocker?
No, it doesn't. Why the hell do we have a jailer, then? All it's going to do is block the agent and the doc (woo, pro-gaming?) and whatever roles the mafia might have. There had to be SOMETHING to counterbalance the abductor for town, and jailer was it. And no, "often" the roleblocker is able to block the mafia kill; that's what they're for.
Ok quick flavour review. Ocarina of Time (OoT) is a direct prequel from Majora's Mask (MM), OoT takes place in Hyrule. At the start of MM Link falls through some kinda dimensional gap and appears in Termina where lets of familiar faces are seen as its a bit like a parallel universe (the same character models are used) and often characters have the same name. The character Dr. Mizumi exists in OoT, and an exact copy of him appears in MM but his name is NOT Dr.Mizumi, its "Professor" and Dr.Mizumi is never used in MM
Because you never really had any intent to lynch FF. Whenever you had a good opportunity to push for Pierre/FF, you switched off it with very little reasoning. You started to pay more attention to it as the game went on, but you still weren't trying to kill FF very hard if you really thought he was scum.
D1, you pressure Pierre. Fine, he's inactive, pressuring inactives in what you do. But then, not only do you not pressure Roxy (who was being both inactive and useless to town), but you jump on his wagon for almost no reason at all, aside from "what he was saying was scummy". Also, look at the timing of you putting your vote on Pierre: it was RIGHT after the Roxy wagon started up and when it had 4 votes on it. That's just WAY too perfect a timing to lead a safe wagon on an inactive scumbuddy.
Day 2, you pressure Pierre less. Has Pierre being inactive for an eternity not given you any reason to lynch him/modkill him (you never actually suggested or talked about either; you were too scared to take a side, because you either defend him and look bad when he flips scum, or push him and then your push ends up killing him)? IMO this Day was probably easy for you (at least before the end when I started pushing for both your deaths LOL) since Pierre was inactive and you could say anyone was scum without having to act around the fact that Pierre was your scumbuddy.
Day 3, FF comes in and you're no longer able to pressure him through inactivity; so FF makes a little case on you and gives you a way to distance him. Now, I actually read through D3 to understand the context, and there are 2 things that were over-exaggerated:
1, the extent to which FF pushed you. He never even voted you! This was my mistake, as I was only saying this from what I remembered/what I saw from your ISO.
2, the extent to which the case was noticed. I'm quite sure that the ONLY post that was made by NOT FF and adum was by OS; yes, ONE post devoted to anything related to the FF-adum meta wagon. There was never an actual wagon; it was just adum voting FF and that was it. XD It proves my point fully: people don't want to talk about meta things and make decisions based on them, because when you meta someone and your case falls flat, you're not being scummy, you're just wrong.
Now here's the kicker: Day 3, you had a perfectly good opportunity to lynch FF. He was making a safe stance on you. He had barely contributed anything new. Why didn't you push harder? Why didn't you attempt to drive people back onto your wagon, rather than just saying "oh, Vocal's town and I don't think he's a good lynch, let me see if I can do anything about that"? If you had a townie read on someone and had a scum read on someone else,
the townie thing to do is NOT let the the wagon pass by and apply very little pressure against it happening. Look at all the wagons I've been on: never did I disagree with the person being lynched, because they were never on my town list.
1. Because it was way outside of your pattern (since it was the only non-serious thing you did.
lulzy note: "i am styrofoam" was my VT breadcrumb LOL. I couldn't see how anyone would be able to pull "VT" from it, so leaving it in a harmless joke for myself seemed fine. Note it's in the same post as my fake cop breadcrumb.
"hey guys, i got this role where my only ability is to vote, but what's the good in that if i don't know who to vote for?"
"hey guys, i have this ability that let's me determine someone's alignment, but i don't know who the mafia are!"
"hey guys, i have the power to protect anyone at night from night kills, but unless i figure out who the mafia are going to target, I don't see any point in using my ability..."
I've been doing non-serious, jokey things all game, adum (lol that makes me sound so good ). It was perfectly within reason for me to say what I did and trust that people would understand I wasn't serious.
You, OS and FF have all been taking things I say too seriously, and it just looks really weird. OS, on his own, managed to imply from my modkill push on Pierre that I thought Pierre was the abductor because he was the first one to mention the possibility of an abductor existing, when really, I (and no one else) had said anything of the sort; saying "Pierre was the abductor" or "Pierre abducted himself" was just a funny correlation between the fact that he had disappeared for so long and the fact that an abductor existed in the game, and my push on his modkill was because he had done nothing and needed to die. OS had taken something completely out of context and said something about his own specific role without prompt. And look at what he flipped.
Besides, making called shots on a person's role, especially a scum role? Why would you think I was being serious at all? There would be no way I could accurately guess that without some sort of back-up info or role that hints at those kinds of things. It's just really weird that you remembered something so insignificant from back then, especially when, if you were town, you'd know I was just BSing and could have ignored it.
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some other things I want to say, just posting this so there's more to respond to when adum/someone gets on
i have no idea if deadline is now or 24 hours from now. :/ like, I wouldn't mind people just voting adum right now because I know he's scum, but it'll look pretty bad if that happens and then the deadline is tomorrow
adum's also ridiculously scummy since he doesn't have his vote on me, because if the Day ends today we can't lynch me without everyone else voting me, which means he doesn't care if we lynch someone toDay i.e. he's going to NK DanGR toNight and we'll lose
or he's scum with FF and can count on him being here to vote me
either way
also FF GG on having the fallback of adum's lynch happening and then you being able to push my lynch tomorrow anyway
can we lynch adum, then? i don't want town to lose
X1, are you seriously doubting DanGR's claim based on flavour? :/ Like, if DanGR really is scum, I have no doubt he would have been given a safe claim and wouldn't have had to make something up, because this game is too linked with flavour (abductor being "Them", owl being self-watcher, anju being jailer) for scum to not have a good safe claim.
Hilt could have even given Dan that specific name, because "Lake Scientist" sounds like a terrible name and isn't the actual name of the character (whereas I'm quite sure every claim up to now has been).
So he set himself up to be bussed...and then no one bussed him? He claimed after I started attacking adum. If you think I'm scum and that Dan was trying to be bussed, why the hell did I start going after adum and then say "k Dan is still town"?
OF COURSE there are town reasons. Imagine you're not sure if it's lylo yet, and you have an important role (like doc). People call for a massclaim. Why would you claim doc? If there's going to be at least another Night Phase after this one, your ability to protect someone can be of great use in preserving lives and can save people you think are town.
Dan is inexperienced and has never even GOTTEN to lylo (I'm assuming, I've only seen him in one game). It's no wonder he'd do something to protect what he considers an important role.
Funnily enough I see FF and Adum as the two other town players actually.
After this game is over, you DON'T want to be the one person who was pushing for the completely wrong people without giving a justified reason. You're town, but you aren't going even explaining why you think the things you do, and when the game's over, you're going to be embarrassed for not thinking this through and explaining your reads.
Yes, WIFOM, but seriously, the fact that you're not even giving any real thought into this game is making me sad to know you're town. :/
It allows him to claim last and double-check there isn't another doc. Its also possible that since everyone else claimed VT he thought he'd throw in a powerrole.
He was under absolutely no pressure or suspicion before he claimed. WHY, as scum, would he claim that when he was at no risk? It makes him look WORSE, not better. He also had scum partners that would tell him not to do that, and at this point, only me or adum could be his scum partner. adum wouldn't do that, and although I'm certainly not an amazing player, I would know not to buddy scummate all game, allow them to claim doc, and then still think they're town.
---
oh thank god
still have a day. If you're going to vote anyone FF, do it while you're still able to (but hurr durr you're scum so who cares).
@Sir B: its not that I've put no thought into it, but instead I have put thought into it just not gotten round to posting why.
also wrt "me not wanting to be the only one attacking the complete two wrong players" shebang. Well you are correct, I don't want to be facepalming after this because I've been attacking the wrong people but I'm not gonna suddenly vote for the people who I think are most town just because of the 1% chance that if I was wrong they would be laughing at the end of it.
concise reasons you are scum.
You just let Dan off of everything by playing the noobcard for him
You're plan in the abducto-lylo/mylo where you decided to NL? The whole "lets convince scum they should no shoot!" thing looks very much like you actually have some control over the shot
Its down to a def scum between you/adum and adum's posts have distinctly more pro-town intent.
concise reasons Dan is scum
If he was dr mitzuki (a COMPLETELY ridiculous idea) then as town he should have just claimed dr mitzuki vanilla townie. why risk being CCed when you are town faking being a vt??
lies about claim
FORGOT?? it was LYLO despite being clearly mentioned several times
all round scummy D1
Well when I saw him claim mafia I was like ¬¬ brah! I knew OS wouldn't allow him game to rest on one of DanGR/Swiss/X1 and probably not on FF (also I had a town read on FF since he replaced in)
to Swiss: yo brah I'm X1 [proof this is X1] the agent, you should now keep my alive until endgame because as town you now know I am clear, or as scum if you NK me I'll have heavily breadcrumbed that I targeted you (and it should be obvious anyway) and this will implicate you lots and lots.
sincerely X1
To OS: yo, blah blah I'm X1 don't kill me cause I've already told someone I'm targeting you (I was actually bluffing) and you will look bad =/
I think pierre is abductor and adum is scum. start your first post with a capital if you concur (this sorta thing) and so on, he didn't do what I asked and was like hmm? OS being an arrogant... ? well possibly.
N3 I didn't want to note because I was so unsure of scum that I didn't want to reveal my power to them (not realising I already had to abductor) anyway its HIGHLY likely that all kills take priority over my note.
N5 I said to FF: confirm I am X1 blah blah
Stances: exactly what I'm saying now town: Swiss, adum, FF and scum the other two
Deadline is 8PM my time, (3PM EST) tomorrow, I will be on at around midday at the latest as I am going out for my Mum's birthday (I may get online when I get back but unlikely). at that point I will vote for, most likely Sir B because he is more likely to be lynched and a NL is NOT what I want. If adum or FF get on and say they will take a DanGR lynch then I will vote for him instead.
Sorry to drop this bombshell guys but a family member of mine died this morning so I am not particularly in the mood to post, hence my laziness when it comes to responding to ISOs. I hope I have made it clear who I believe to be scum and my reasoning for it. If you want to know why adum/FF are town, put it down to process of elimination.
In OoT, the person is called the "Lake Scientist", and in MM, he's called the "Professor". He's Dr. Mizuki in NEITHER of the games. He's only Dr. Mizumi in the manga, in which he's Dr. Mizumi in both the OoT AND MM manga.
DanGR claim fits flavourfully with MM, because "Professor" is a silly name that people probably wouldn't buy, and fits with his doctor role.
You just let Dan off of everything by playing the noobcard for him
Because I trust my earlier read of him and could understand where he was coming from toDay when he claimed doc.
I'm a read-based player and I base a lot of my decisions around them.
You're plan in the abducto-lylo/mylo where you decided to NL? The whole "lets convince scum they should no shoot!" thing looks very much like you actually have some control over the shot
Or that I thought I was leading town down a good path, and needed the cooperation of scum to make sure we went down the bets path possible. >.> Didn't you think no lynching at that point was better? Cutting down on the number of options we had to lynch is always better, and scum shooting that Night honestly would not have been that bad (well, at least until BPness started to become an issue >.>). Talking to scum about whether they should kill or not was pretty much the only way I could give them my opinions directly, and since at that point, town/mafia were all united in the common enemy of the abductor, it seemed reasonable that they would take what I was saying into consideration.
Its down to a def scum between you/adum and adum's posts have distinctly more pro-town intent.
It's pretty easy to fake pro-town intent when your scum partner is completely inactive/doing scummy things like pushing people (read: scumbuddies) on meta for the entire game. :/
If he was dr mitzuki (a COMPLETELY ridiculous idea) then as town he should have just claimed dr mitzuki vanilla townie. why risk being CCed when you are town faking being a vt??
It isn't too hard to guess roles that are unlikely to be in the game. I guessed using that dog lady (can't remember her name atm) for my fakeclaim because she seemed very unlikely to be in this game as she was so unimportant (Anju, Romani, Tingle, and Sakon are major, the owl and Postman are major for being popular, Mayor is important simply because he's the mayor, Link the Goron is major simply because he's called Link, Guru Guru, Them and Dr. M were probably included simply for their role flavours). Gorman is the same. As for why he didn't claim Dr. Mizuki as a VT, I'll let him answer himself, but I have an inkling as to why.
God I'm so tired right now. Sorry that my punctuation and stuff will probably be off. So I'm not gonna write in big complicated paragraphs right now if i can help it.
@Dangr: Yes, it's technically possible that we're both a scum team, but does any evidence exist to back up that assertion? There's plenty of evidence that sir bed is scum, but I see nothing that suggests we're scummates or that I'm scum period.
Not too confident about this answer, but I think the better decision was to correct your claim today, as you did, but as both town and mafia. The motivation as mafia to claim today being because you were pretty clearly not actually cop by the end of the day (at least imo.) and you were guaranteed to get killed the next day if you didn't admit to it.
Between me and adum, who's most scum? You can think we're both scum if you want, but who would you lynch right now if you had to? Why?
Changed my mind about you and Adumbrodeus. Getting to this later in this post.
What do you think of the interactions between adum and FF? Do you think all the distancing and elbow rubbing adum has done is scummy? Do you think FF's case on adum was safe, and do you think you would have lynched either one based on it if there was another reasonable lynch (like Vocal) also available as a lynch choice?
I don't feel strongly any particular way about what you feel is Adumb distancing FF, and Adumb's reaction to it. Adumb's explanation for it was reasonable enough that those exchanges doesn't bother me.
Why don't you think X1 is town, DanGR?/DanGR is town, X1? Respond to the points I've made that made me think that both of you are town.
I was pretty convinced Adumbrodeus was town mostly because I thought you were mafia, and that was most of it, but I see my mistakes in thinking that way.
First off, it's not guaranteed either of you are town. One being mafia doesn't necessarily mean the other is town.
Second, I wasn't really looking past you lying. You lying doesn't really mean you're mafia though, (after all, I just lied about vanilla townie, or doctor, whichever way you see it) and after reading the conversation, I don't really see how Adumbrodeus came to the conclusion you're mafia because of it. It only means you lied about being cop. You could still easily have been abductor, mafia, or town, imo.
That said, Adumbrodeus pushed the case of you lying being a part of the reason you're mafia even though I just lied about being a regular town or doctor if you think that and he hasn't said much about it.
Makes sense to me that he'd do that as mafia if he's with FF, because he'd only be worried about today as opposed to tomorrow, which wouldn't be the case if you were with him. Makes me doubt a Sir Bed/Adumbrodeus combo. But this last part isn't really a part of my case tho. More of a hunch.
That and while a lot of your arguments are scummy, if you're town they're only scummy because you're trying your best to get Adumb killed instead of you.
On the other side your overall intent seems a lot more town-oriented than Adumb, smelling of you trying to make it seem that way...
And Adumbs arguments themselves are better overall I think.
So in conclusion, I'm leaning more on the side of Adumb+FF combo right now, though I'm open to lynching Sir Bed if everyone else disagrees with me about who to lynch. I don't want this game coming down to what I think. :/
I used to think that argument was good for me being town, but if I was mafia it'd be pretty easy for my buddy to tell me the sort of things to say to make me look town, right? Did you think about that possibility?
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X1, please don't vote me right now. Hear me out.
1. Adumbrodeus will not vote for me unless he's scum and it's with his scum partner*, and only after you vote. IF HE IS TOWN like you think, that means Sir Bed is 100% scum. There's absolutely no reason for him to change his planned vote, and little reason for you to vote me first if you're certain he's town. He'd plan to vote for me tomorrow if he thought Sir Bed and I were both scum.
*-This is true unless I was his partner and he thought I was a goner. But he's still scum in this case anyways.
2. If you're absolutely certain it's Sir Bed and I as scum unless it's proven otherwise, at least give me the chance to prove I'm doctor. If it turns out Sir Bed is scum, and if I die or there's no night kill, that'd be proof I'm doctor. Though that means there's an incentive to night kill someone else beside me. But that risks me protecting them- something I doubt they'd want to bet on.
Welcome to Majora's Mask Mafia! This game will take it's characters from The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask. There will not be any characters used from any other Zelda game that do not also appear in Majora's Mask.
^ the mods comment heavily implies he is talking purely about Majora's Mask the game.
1.) Dr Mizumi does not exist in that canon.
2.) The Lake scientist is not a medical doctor of any kind - does not fit his role. A doctor role could easily be Kotake, the potion seller or something
3.) Hilt would have no shame giving him just his title, since his name is not revealed in game (I am just the Post Man)
Putting accusations on the person pressuring you at the time while simultaneously backing up on the buddying you were accused of? Nice.
Side-note: I see "Bandwagon to Victory" is one of the basic attack maneuvers. Why can't I have been doing that, again? The "pick out players as town" part fits perfectly with what I've done for most of the game (I haven't seen this page/heard of either of these strats, btw, I guess I just stumbled on using it by accident).
Again, what makes you say that? You have yet to refute my NA analysis.
I don't dislike meta in and of itself. Using meta is fine when you want to compare how someone is playing a game now in comparison with another game, if how they're playing is different; why are they playing differently? What made them change their style? However, I don't think it's reliable when you see X player playing like Y in game A and he flips Q, and when you see that same player X playing like Y in game B, that you automatically assume he's Q in game B too. It's certainly an indicator that, if they played like Y in game A as Q that's it's MORE likely that they're Q in game B if they're also playing like Y, but it should never be the only reason of why you think they're scummy, and there'd still have to be a significant case behind them in order for any useful lynch to occur. Basically, meta is the fluff that lines the inside of a case, not the case itself.
No, I took a stance, that's very different, "I'm not liking your play because it matches up with your meta here and therefore I'd be willing to lynch you". Cases are for pushing others to agree, stances are for who you're willing to lynch, I didn't start making a case on you till later.
Also, you're incorrect, meta is an incredibly powerful tool if you can understand how a player thinks. Mafia is a game of reading and manipulation, a direct insight into how a player thinks is probably the most powerful tool you can get.
I play a lurky/wagony/non-confrontational player who's really quiet in the early game and starts going off in the lategame. I always attempt to play like this because I want to be unmetable. If you're going to meta me based on Bioware, than be fair and meta me based on my other games; you'll see that the style isn't far off.
Hell, if you're going to be fair, don't meta me off Bioware at all, because that was my first and ONLY game as mafia and isn't a reliable source of mafia meta. >_> How could you be so certain I was scum based on metaing one game?
Did I say I was sure? But you were definitely leaning scum and that and the wagony nature was the only thing that I had to make a read on you period.
You gotta play the numbers, if I have one player who seems more likely to be scum then town and one player I know absolutely nothing about, who do you think I'd prefer to lynch. Town needs lynches, scum wins if town wastes them.
Also, note:
How far did you saying "Bed is playing the same as he did in Bioware, me thinks he's scum" get you, anyway? Aside from I think Vocal, no one else voted me or really even paid attention to me for D2 (after the OS wagon where OS put some pressure on me) until the Day's end when a lynch was necessary and I was really the only one with enough votes to go anywhere. This is exactly my point with respect to how FF pushed your case; he/you knew it would fail because thinking someone is scum almost solely on meta gets ignored, because people don't want to join the wagon, have that person get lynched and flip town, and then look really bad when the only thing they can say the next day is "oops, looks like we were wrong ".
Lynching based only on meta is terrible, and had your lynch occurred because of FF's case (and you flip town) we'd have almost nothing to go on for the next day because the only thing we could say about the people who were on your lynch were that they were wrong. That's why no one would go for it.
Yeah, I think I read that wrong. >_< You were open to joining Vocal's lynch/Vocal possibly being scum, though, which was my point. You went from "FF or Bed is the play" to "Vocal lookin' flaily, let me look at our options" without even addressing the case FF made on Vocal, which IMO is pretty telltale; it would seem like just the kind of thing scum would do to allow a scummate to make a case on a town player, see if it takes off, and then put down their stance on it (but you didn't even do that; you ignored it completely, because it didn't need your help).
Yes, I was open to that it might be possible, but I never committed because I hadn't finished reading, which was the same reason I never really commented on the case. That and the case itself was vacuous however Vocal's REACTION to the case suggested the possibility of being scum.
As far as being open to hammer, the reason is simple (and I addressed this earlier in the game, as well as in multiple other games I've played), TOWN NEEDS LYNCHES, we cannot waste a day by not lynching, and lynching somebody that I have a town read on is better then no lynching. Sure as heck better then a null-tell.
As I said, I don't think you were trying to legitimately lynch each other. Abductor/only 2 mafiats in a sea of townies makes bussing bad.
But this plan had the secondary effect of giving you town-cred if the lynch actually happened, as unlikely as it would be. Basically, it was win-win; either you put pressure on FF/FF puts pressure on you, you distance each other and have a lot of control over the wagon, or one of you gets lynched and gains townie-cred. But I've already explained how I don't think the meta lynch would have occurred.
So, unless you have proof, you've just given yourself licence to push anyone mafia lynch as bussing. Where's the evidence that this was a bus.
And you have yet to prove it, or even give evidence that REMOTELY hints that I didn't intend to have him die from the wagon.
And why do you keep lying and saying my case on him was meta after I proved it was because of his scummy case?
Alone, it isn't a bus. It's a bad push by FF and is more likely to indicate your towniness and FF's scumminess. If this was an isolated incident, FF flipping mafia would probably make you more likely to be town.
Together with how you've been putting really weak pressure/distance on Pierre/FF and how you've ignored pressuring other townies (Roxy) when they've been just as inactive/useless as FF/Pierre for no reason, and how you acted yesterDay and how you thought of yourself yesterDay, it makes the both of you scum.
I missed roxy, it happens, it's very difficult to put pressure on everybody in the game and notice when everybody is inactive, especially early game.
So?
If you could show a consistent pattern of ignoring other people, then you'd have something, but you have one person, an oversight. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Oh, so you mean what I did D2 when I switched from OS to you (minus the "push again" part since I got a town read on you)?
Except you hadn't said that you were willing to lynch me or shown any sort of reasoning for why you'd be interested in doing so. Furthermore, the case on me was completely vacuous and you didn't add anything worthwhile.
You could have explained out your actions fully to him, he'd understand that you weren't shrugging things off, you were just doing "X", and move on. If you were both working behind the scenes, you could easily manipulate who was winning the argument and thus, who would be closer to getting lynched.
Yep, pretty much everyone was willing to lynch me at the end of the day.
Few things:
1. X1 mostly voted for pressure reasons. If OS got to L-1 legitimately (I don't think he ever actually was, at least not for a good amount of time) and other people were interested in voting as well, I'm pretty sure he would have unvoted.
2. Vocal was on the wagon, and seeing as I'm pretty sure he thought almost everyone in the game was scum at various points, and his reasons for voting OS weren't very good, it didn't make the wagon on OS very appealing to be on.
3. Swiss pushed solely on meta and gut. Just like your lynch would have been bad if you flipped town, OS' lynch would have been just the same. There were too many conservative players unwilling to trust reads on the sidelines for anything legitimate to have happened. I'm mostly a read/gut-based player and I personally don't mind lynching based on gut alone (principally, I know it's wrong, but if the town all has similar reads and accepts the consequences of their target flipping scum, it's OK IMO), so my vote/invitation to wagon OS was a lure to see if any other players were willing to lynch based on gut too. Additionally, the fact that Swiss was pushing OS based on his gut both made me more confident in my own gut read, as well as make me think that Swiss was town (that was why I thought he was town at that juncture, @you poking at why I thought Swiss was town later in my post). Though it turned out we were both right for the wrong reasons.
Yet once a wagon has reached that point it is incredibly hard to stop no matter what the reasons, at the very least you're getting a roleclaim when a person reaches l-1.
That amount of votes on a wagon is no small commitment.
Also... you're saying that swiss was willing to lynch based on a gut read makes him town. That's townie recklessness which was exactly what I was saying.
wtf is this?
No, "if you say so" is LITERALLY me saying "you know more about this and are going to get called out on this if you're lying, so what you're saying must be true". You know I've played in 7 (essentially 4) games, adum, OF COURSE I'm going to assume these types of things based on the limited amount of experience I've had with mafia, as well as the logic I've developed from my experience with mafia, because that's all I have to go off of. Haven't I proven enough with my thinking the abductor couldn't be BP? I'm quite sure in all the games I've been involved with (aka not Halo/Bioware, since I've always been disinterested as scum /extreme amount of WIFOM) that the RB was able to block the killer or the indy, (unless specifically stated in that indy's PM), so of course I'd assume that.
There was no reason to blow your lid on me for saying one "wiggle phrase". If you're trying to pull the "frustrated townie" look, it doesn't look good on you. Doesn't match your eyes.
What I'm saying is that you're approaching this like an intellectual argument where you're attempting to prove your superiority by winning the position as opposed to something you actually believe, scraping for a point here or a point there.
If you knew I was scum by figuring it out, you wouldn't have to do this, you'd just have the evidence, and as proven before, you wouldn't vote early in lylo unless you knew it would win you the game.
What risk?
Abducting wouldn't have killed your scumbuddy. If scum abducted you or FF, the choice still would have been between me and OS, so you neither widen nor shorten your abductor lynch pool. I was clearly 100% for no lynch, and you couldn't have lynched OS just by yourselves (especially since I thought OS was mafia), so pushing for OS would be completely pointless. So long as I was pushing for no lynch and you thought I wasn't abductor, you would be accomplishing absolutely nothing in mylo. Lylo was the only way you could go, and it had the added bonus of OS possibly targeting me and making the Day very, very easy for you and FF.
The risk that you would quickvote for me after suspecting me as abductor, obviously. If it's true then by making it possible to lynch without us I took an extreme risk and could've destroyed my faction.
I always wondered why FF took so damm long to "look over my claim", and I think I understand why; he was waiting for you to see what you should do next.
Then why didn't you? Didn't feel like rereading on something that could have determined the very outcome of the game? I could have been lying and been abductor. Scum could have decided to NK that Night. Why weren't you worried about that?
I actually did before I chose OS, still fixing your claim and showing that your play was consistent with a VT would've gone a long way towards making the decision easier.
Numba 1, because you're scum and knew that going into lylo was perfectly safe since you were in control of the kill. That's WIFOM (and can also apply to me), but it doesn't explain away:
numba 2, because you couldn't push for someone who, in all likelihood, could be telling the truth AND could end up clearing you. You were still stuck in the mafia mentality of immediately backing off of claimed PRs, because not lynching people with roles that help town is an action perceived as town ("Hoo damn, this kid's pickin' things up fast!" -Swiss, from the grave). I could have been insane, in which case trying to kill of OS who you knew would have been abductor at that point would have been great, and not killing me and letting me lead town to a mislynch would have been even greater. OS could have abducted me, and you would have that easy D5 I've been talking about. There were too many things that could have gone right for you, and not enough things to go wrong, that it wouldn't have been better to believe my claim, see what happens come D5, and go from there.
Wait, it's a mafia mentality because... town does it?
Also, how did I know OS was the abductor at that point? Assuming what you say is true, he had yet to claim.
Regardless, you're missing something very important, that only worked if you were abducted (the person under the most suspicion for being the abductor). Either me or FF being abductor would result in you being in a position to quick-vote one of us and we would lose the game.
Why take that risk?
Clearly it didn't, or you wouldn't have believed my claim in the first place. I admit, not pushing OS harder after getting a guilty on him was a big hole in my explanation (but then I wasn't planning on claiming cop at that point, so I couldn't really change anything), but the fact that you didn't notice it shows you didn't really reread since it was such an important part of my claim.
No, I hadn't reread at the time, I reread next game day and didn't finish until after OS's mafia claim at which point the focus was on him for rather obvious reasons.
I meant killing me last Night. OS punching holes in my claim probably helped, as well.
There was also the fact that, if you thought I was telling the truth about my claim and you were both mafia, there was no way you would have killed me last Night. I couldn't be a regular cop, because I got an inno on FF when you KNEW for a fact that there were no manipulative roles left, so killing me wouldn't leave you as both clear. I could have been some sort of indy-hunter type cop, in which case killing me does nothing for you (as the inno's on you and FF were meaningless), and it would be better to hunt for other, useful PRs. And then I could have been insane, in which case town would have had the easiest D6 and D7 in mafia history.
And what possible reason would we have for believing your claims if we were both mafia?
But here's the thing you're not realizing, you die and flip town cop, you've cleared 2 townies, of the remaining people, 2 are scum. That's tough for mafia. Much better to neutralize or get you lynched next game day, and if you were a townie you would've considered this as a reason for you not getting killed.
Instead, you used it as part of a case as if there was only one possible reason.
Until today... I mean you had some points which were very clearly jokes, but nothing ambiguous.
Ok, I'm dumb in that regard, i misremembered, but there was no indication of it being a joke, and suddenly it's a joke, with no setup, no contextual humor, no nothing. Why would we believe it's a joke?
OK, but I don't understand what's scummy about saying someone's a certain mafia role in the first place, because if you think they're mafia (no matter what role they are, in most situations), you should lynch them.
Not so much scummy as it didn't support your claim because of the timing, and the convienence of it dropped dump-truck sized holes in your claim. What was scummy was not correcting it till you could get town-cred for it.
Oh, that makes sense. I think that's an area of my game that needs to be improved; too often I'm more concerned about my own survival (even as VT, when I plan to die ;- than I am about being town, because I associate a town victory with my survival. /large amounts of WIFOM
It still doesn't explain why me not claiming yesterDay was scummy. Attempting to draw the NK away from PRs when you have a completely useless role seems like I'm "trying to help town" to me. What exactly would I have been gaining for town yesterDay by claiming then? Don't say that it was to help you make the right decision, because I was ALREADY convinced you were going to make the right decision and saw no real reason that made me think I needed to claim.
Because given that your claim was completely broken in half, you couldn't have. Even if you were a real cop, what makes you think mafia would NK you and confirm you as a cop?
Will get to "wagony" later.
Lol, so you not being here because of V/LA allows you to be inactive and get out of jail free, but I can't? My schedule IS busy and I can't devote time consistently to mafia, so if you're criticizing me on me not being here, you're criticizing my life.
You have a V/LA? Fair enough. But still even when you are here, your content and scumhunting contributations were nill.
"Hey guys, I'm a VT, and I'm claiming VT so that you know that I'm not the abductor so you can lynch him instead of me, who isn't the abductor. K? K!" -Dumb Person
If you were OS and also a VT in abductor lylo, would you have said this?
No.
Why?
BECAUSE IT PROVES NOTHING
OS' reason for claiming mafia had absolutely no backing to them, because the only backing they had was "to prove he wasn't abductor", which is meaningless when you could be the abductor and lying.
It doesn't prove anything by it's nature, yet the fact that it puts the player in a much more vulnerable position lends credence to it.
And this is OS, he ALWAYS seems scummy. His play this game was unlike anything he ever had before, he dropped none of his normal town or mafia tells.
So, I didn't understand his play, why would I not be cautious? Considering my NA analysis strongly suggested he had been jailed, why would I not give him considerable benefit of the doubt?
Explain how.
Explain why me with my:
-getting inno on FF when I shouldn't (it could have been possible, this game is different)
-not pursuing OS harder when I had a guilty on him (wasn't sure of sanity, was more concerned with abductor)
-whatever other stupid reasons
was better than OS':
-claiming mafia when doing so would result in his automatic lynch the next day and would be terrible for mafia
-claiming mafia offering absolutely no proof as to why he was mafia after being asked repeatedly
-claiming mafia when claiming town would have been so much better for his faction and when he had apparently nothing to differentiate his claim from that of a VT
Actually, I doubt you couldn't have gotten the innocent, part of the reason why I still considered your claim for a while. NA priority means cop goes before kills which SK is usually prioritized as.
Anyway...
1. You've been incredibly scummy over the entire game, yet you maintained no clear connections, your pattern SCREAMED indy.
2. OS's claim put him in a much weaker position, which made it suggest desperation better.
3. His pattern didn't really scream anything, which made me more liable to take his claims at face value (which I would've completely if I didn't know him so well).
4. If he offered no proof of his claim, but your claim had far less to back it up when c
Why does you putting your vote on me implicate that you want to end the Day?
Because it can't end till I put my vote on you unless your scumbuddy voted between the two of us.
There's confirmed scum between us. One of us will be lynched toDay. There's nothing wrong with putting your vote on me, and if you're worried someone else will vote and I'll self-hammer, you can say you'll lynch anyone who votes me if deadline isn't within X hours. You not voting me just looks like you don't want to OMGUS me and you're not certain I'm scum when, if you actually were town, you'd know for sure I was.
You're being cautious where caution isn't needed. Gord did that in Sonic Mafia as scum, and you're doing it here.
Actually, it seems that X-1 confirmed your scumbuddy. Useful.
No, the "DURR HURR you know how I know you like fried chocolate sundaes on a Wednesday?" followed by weak reasons arguments both you and OS have used. It just looks bad, lol.
Except we didn't, you're strawmanning, a logical fallacy. Fallacious logic is scummy as hell.
I don't consider 6 days into the game "quickvoting".
OS voting me 1 day and 3 posts into the game is quickvoting. Chibo voting Rockin a few days after Day start in Sonic mafia is quickvoting. Sir Bed voting adum 6 days before deadline and when barely anyone had made any progress is an attempt to make something happen, and isn't quickvoting.
How is it a clear scum desire to vote someone you think/know is scum? SOMEONE would have eventually had to vote for SOMEONE. Are you saying the first person to do that is scum?
I think I was mostly fair in where I put each post.
The first one is just what it says: posts where adum bumps elbows with FF, and it's the main reason I think he's scummy.
The second one is useless ****, which if you'll notice, is 59 posts. I counted anything that was RVS/contributed nothing/things that told me nothing/mostly useless one-liners, as well as all of D5, since adum didn't have to deal with FF at all, as well as D6 after I voted him, since it's just been him attacking me/defending from me, and he knows I'm aware of his connection to FF.
Third is pressuring, nothing major, but it's things that town or scum could do.
Fourth is actual scumhunting/stances on people that aren't FF.
Discounting useless ****, counting pressuring as half (rounded up cus I'm genourous ), and scumhunting +6 because I missed 6 of his posts somehow (so genourous ), the new total comes to:
14/34, or 41%
That's nearly half his posts. I think my case of him constantly rubbing elbows with FF is justified.
So... everything I say that mentions FF is rubbing elbows with him?
Well, I have 17 posts "rubbing elbows with OS", am I his scumbuddy?
I decided to stop at "rubbing elbows" with you 22 times, you my scumbuddy?
Your logic is essentially 100% confirmation bias, I never concentrated on FF more then anyone else whose been in the game for as long as he has, but somehow every interaction I had with him is scummy because of quantity.
I pressured everybody, so you could say essentially what you said about anybody in the game, which at the same time, proves that there was no specific connection with FF.
Also, your categorization of my posts is ridiculous, putting large amounts of NA analysis under "useless ****". My pressure on vocal as well?
There's signifigant pressure and scumhunting on everybody there, and somehow it's "useless ****". Furthermore, the useless should at least tell you ****.
Seriously guys, just read what he categorized as useless ****, the iso is cherry-picking at it's finest when it's obvious he could've made the exact same case on me with anybody in the game, himself included.
Reviewing X-1's case against Dangr now, the lack of flavor justification seems to really establish him as scum though.
God I'm so tired right now. Sorry that my punctuation and stuff will probably be off. So I'm not gonna write in big complicated paragraphs right now if i can help it.
Yeah, I couldn't think of anything yet. Apparently FF has something though.
Not too confident about this answer, but I think the better decision was to correct your claim today, as you did, but as both town and mafia. The motivation as mafia to claim today being because you were pretty clearly not actually cop by the end of the day (at least imo.) and you were guaranteed to get killed the next day if you didn't admit to it.
Changed my mind about you and Adumbrodeus. Getting to this later in this post.
I don't feel strongly any particular way about what you feel is Adumb distancing FF, and Adumb's reaction to it. Adumb's explanation for it was reasonable enough that those exchanges doesn't bother me.
Iirc, I said I do think he's town right now, a couple posts back. Regardless, yeah. I do now.
I was pretty convinced Adumbrodeus was town mostly because I thought you were mafia, and that was most of it, but I see my mistakes in thinking that way.
First off, it's not guaranteed either of you are town. One being mafia doesn't necessarily mean the other is town.
Second, I wasn't really looking past you lying. You lying doesn't really mean you're mafia though, (after all, I just lied about vanilla townie, or doctor, whichever way you see it) and after reading the conversation, I don't really see how Adumbrodeus came to the conclusion you're mafia because of it. It only means you lied about being cop. You could still easily have been abductor, mafia, or town, imo.
That said, Adumbrodeus pushed the case of you lying being a part of the reason you're mafia even though I just lied about being a regular town or doctor if you think that and he hasn't said much about it.
Makes sense to me that he'd do that as mafia if he's with FF, because he'd only be worried about today as opposed to tomorrow, which wouldn't be the case if you were with him. Makes me doubt a Sir Bed/Adumbrodeus combo. But this last part isn't really a part of my case tho. More of a hunch.
That and while a lot of your arguments are scummy, if you're town they're only scummy because you're trying your best to get Adumb killed instead of you.
On the other side your overall intent seems a lot more town-oriented than Adumb, smelling of you trying to make it seem that way...
And Adumbs arguments themselves are better overall I think.
So in conclusion, I'm leaning more on the side of Adumb+FF combo right now, though I'm open to lynching Sir Bed if everyone else disagrees with me about who to lynch. I don't want this game coming down to what I think. :/
I used to think that argument was good for me being town, but if I was mafia it'd be pretty easy for my buddy to tell me the sort of things to say to make me look town, right? Did you think about that possibility?
---
X1, please don't vote me right now. Hear me out.
1. Adumbrodeus will not vote for me unless he's scum and it's with his scum partner*, and only after you vote. IF HE IS TOWN like you think, that means Sir Bed is 100% scum. There's absolutely no reason for him to change his planned vote, and little reason for you to vote me first if you're certain he's town. He'd plan to vote for me tomorrow if he thought Sir Bed and I were both scum.
*-This is true unless I was his partner and he thought I was a goner. But he's still scum in this case anyways.
2. If you're absolutely certain it's Sir Bed and I as scum unless it's proven otherwise, at least give me the chance to prove I'm doctor. If it turns out Sir Bed is scum, and if I die or there's no night kill, that'd be proof I'm doctor. Though that means there's an incentive to night kill someone else beside me. But that risks me protecting them- something I doubt they'd want to bet on.
Dangr, him lying is not the primary reason, it's how he chose to reveal it, in a manner that would give him the most town-cred. It screams "I'm more concerned about my survival then a town win".
Regardless, it's a small part of my overall case.
Also, when did I let you off for the lie? I had you pegged as most likely scumbuddy for sir bed for quite a while. However, you have inexperience to reference to, sir bed really doesn't.
2 Roleblocking roles seems a bit anti-abductor do you not think? Also considering the amount of power roles we have (+very few are claimed) why would scum need a roleblocker?
At the time you said you're interested in Pierre, so I figured you were going to ask him questions or something (follow up). Pierre hadn't posted anything since then, and you hadn't asked him any questions. Then Swiss asks you what you think about Pierre in this post (link) and you say the following:
He seems pretty good to you?- good to win the game for town, I presume. Earlier you said you had null tells on him. What changed? Pierre hadn't said anything, and he hasn't said anything since then. That and you still haven't followed up. Explain.
This post and the back and forth it sparked, why would dangr misrepresent this as saying I meant pro-town when I obviously was agreeing with swiss about his ability and and furthermore he somehow didn't draw the same conclusion from Swiss using the same term on him?
And why would he further pressure me on the same point even after I clarified that his interpretation was wrong?
(on second glance, misread what swiss was asking myself, I'm a ******* obviously).
Combined with how odd a doc and a jailkeeper is in the same game.
Combined with Dr.Mizumi not being in the game in the first place.
Combined with the fakeclaiming in lylo.
Ok, still happier with the guaranteed scum in sir bed, but I'd be comfortable lynching dangr, he's the lynch toMorrow anyway if not toDay
@x-1: I know you said you'd be on til about two and a half hours before the deadline, almost there. Could you switch your vote to sir bed? If you can't, then I'd be willing to lynch dangr today.
Why can't Hilt have used a different name for his character?
2.) The Lake scientist is not a medical doctor of any kind - does not fit his role. A doctor role could easily be Kotake, the potion seller or something
If Hilt wanted a doctor role in his game, he could have twisted around the names and flavour to get it to work, because there's basically no "true" doctor in MM. The owl is a character that should be able to see lots of things; why is he only a self-watcher?
3.) Hilt would have no shame giving him just his title, since his name is not revealed in game (I am just the Post Man)
But the non-canon has no name for the Postman, and the Postman is actually a well-known character; I honestly had no idea who "Dr. Mizumi" was, and I woudl have thought the same if Dan claimed "Professor; Hilt could have used the "Dr" to connotate his profession.
Why are we metaing the mod in lylo, again?
responding to adum stuff now, not enough time so I'll only respond to what I feel is important.
You're obvious-town and I'm not getting a lynch without you so, but I'm pretty happy with this cause dangr is mad scummy, but if FF is the final mafia I will rage so hard.
) he might have left you two in lylo.
