X1-12
Smash Champion
@Mod: Request Adum prod
claim adum
claim adum
-
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Majora's Mask Mafia | Game Over!
- Thread starter DtJ Hilt
- Start date
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Dropping by briefly before taking a final, so all I'm gonna do is claim.
Mayor Dotour, VT.
Mayor Dotour, VT.
X1-12
Smash Champion
Postman, Town agent
FF can confirm
Swiss N1
OS N2
FF N5
content in a bit
FF can confirm
Swiss N1
OS N2
FF N5
content in a bit
X1-12
Smash Champion
send an 'anonymous' note to one player each night. I chose to reveal my identity in each note I sent though. I had wayts of making people know its me ie with swiss I included stuff that was hidden in the halo mafia QT only I could know about
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
huh, less PRs than I thought there would be
will reread toDay, I apologize for the absence
will reread toDay, I apologize for the absence
X1's claim is legit.
Gonna do some review soon, wrapping up finals here atm.
Gonna do some review soon, wrapping up finals here atm.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Hmmm, interesting, makes sense that OS would've abducted you right after receiving the note, beyond that, need to reread.
OS answered better overall and you were so steeped in scummyness that day that it did make more sense to lynch you, I just knew OS's meta well enough that it pushed him SLIGHTLY above you in terms of abductor possibilities.
Yes, saying you lied would be backtracking, but you were already caught in the lie, and at the very least saying that you were a VT (assuming that you are telling the truth now) would've allowed you to make a consistent argument that you had that role on the basis of past actions, something which you could not do while claiming to be a cop.
Overall, fixing your lie when you were already caught in a lie would've made it a lot more likely that we would've caught the abductor, so why didn't you?
Here's the thing, at that point getting the abductor lynched was top priority, and because of your inconsistency was making you essentially fall apart whenever you were asked a pointed question.
OS answered better overall and you were so steeped in scummyness that day that it did make more sense to lynch you, I just knew OS's meta well enough that it pushed him SLIGHTLY above you in terms of abductor possibilities.
Yes, saying you lied would be backtracking, but you were already caught in the lie, and at the very least saying that you were a VT (assuming that you are telling the truth now) would've allowed you to make a consistent argument that you had that role on the basis of past actions, something which you could not do while claiming to be a cop.
Overall, fixing your lie when you were already caught in a lie would've made it a lot more likely that we would've caught the abductor, so why didn't you?
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
@X1, who'd you note N3? Do you know if it went through? Do you know if you have priority over killing/abducting roles?
minecraft consumed me
rereading nao
Where was this opinion of me D5? From what I remember, you spent most of the Day tunneling OS and only saying things like "Bed is probably lying about his claim" about me, so I never got the impression that you truly felt I was scummy until you added "Bed is probably lying about his claim and is mafia" near the end of the Day. In fact, you saying "Bed could be lying and could be town, mafia, or abductor" and "he could be a VT fakeclaiming, VTs nowadays sometimes do that" (I'm paraphrasing heavily, I'll bring up quotes when I reread) gave me the distinct impression you thought I was town. I never once had the impression that you thought I was the abdcutor over OS.
Again, I never really got the impression that you thought I was scummy, so even though you didn't believe my fakeclaim, you appeared to think I was town, so I had no reason to reveal my real role, not get the chance to draw the NK, and potentially risk you flipping on me and lynching me. I also still can't see why OS wasn't the very clear play, considering how he completely avoided telling us why he claimed mafia (and not town), when my reasons (even if they were wrong/sketchy) were, at least, existent. Because I saw OS as the clear play and myself as not being scummy to you, I saw no reason to reveal my role when there was virtually no gain and plenty of risk/loss.
minecraft consumed me
rereading nao
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
Finished.
I believe X1's claim.
And I also believe he's town.
Vote: adum, FOS: FF
Pretty much the only conclusion that I can come to, and it makes sense to me as well. I'll lay out the logical framework.
Dan is town. I think I've explained this enough. In case you need to see my original post on this, here it is. Even if I'm wrong on that, he's not toDay's play; we're not getting much from his lynch, and I'll concede the game to scumDangr.
X1 is also town. Now, here's where things get meta-y. We've only seen 4 non-VT roles all game: self-watcher, music box (kind of a reverse self-watcher), jailer, and abductor. Half of these roles are completely useless without a targeting role, and the other half make self-watching type roles useless when they target them (well, I don't think the jailer will since it might not stop static abilities, but it's possible). The only other non-VT role we can assume is a mafia NK, which does the same thing as the abductor, with the exception of when the jailer also targets the same person (which would have the interaction of that person knowing the 2 people who visited him but not knowing which one is scum, which is nice balance-wise), but is unlikely to happen consistently. Beyond that, we can only assume mafia have some other targeting roles to work with. That simply doesn't seem like it'd be enough when there are two self-watcher type roles in the game, and especially not enough PRs for town. I'd be hesitant to clear X1 off his claim alone, but I've gotten general town vibes from him since D3 and I think I'm willing to trust my reads one more time this game.
Then comes what's probably gonna take up the rest of this Day.
FF and adum are the scumteam. I'll be willing to put up an actual "ISO" on these two later (I need to spend time on other games/things lol), but I'll give the gist.
adum himself has been individually scummy. Now that Swiss has flipped town, I know that his previous buddying of Swiss for hopping on wagons was either a legit callout town read on Swiss, or was scum buddying people they knew were town, and I think it's the latter. The no kill N2 was from mafia trying to kill Swiss, I'm pretty sure, and buddying people and then getting those people killed is a legit scum strategy.
FF is a lot harder to say is individually scummy due to him replacing the mega-inactive Pierre, but the main thing I'm seeing about him is he's been rushing/quickvoting lynches. He rushed/quickvoted Vocal's lynch (when he got around to making the case at least), and he rushed/quickvoted my lynch, and rushing lynches and giving town as little time as possible to talk out their options is pretty anti-town.
Where they shine most though is how they interacted together, which is where I saw the most of their scumminess from. adum started this early by repeatedly putting light pressure on Pierre ("I need to look into him") but never actually following up on that. DanGR pointed that out D1, and that could have been OK, but adum stretched things out by continuing to do this into D2. He also never gave his opinions on the Pierre modkill, although he did say "Pierre definitely need to die" and then never followed up on that either. The choice between letting someone get modkilled or not can be pretty big and game-deciding, and though he remembered me saying that I thought he was godfather, which I said at around the same time I said I wanted the Pierre modkill, he apparently didn't feel the need to weigh in on it.
Then FF joined and things started getting crazy. Right out of the gate adum and FF start arguing with each other-about how FF meta'd adum and thinks his play is different. That's an extremely easy way for mafia to distance each other without putting real pressure on each other; other people either DO think the meta matches up and they'll vote with you, or they think it fails and will vote against you... But most will simply not bother participating in the discussion/won't take a stance at all, and you'll have created some distance between your scumpartner without the risk of an actual lynch. The whole thing reeked of an attempt to get some late distancing in after basically not having a scum partner for half the game; I could easily see adum seeing he needed to distance himself more from his buddy when he never got the chance to.
Then there was D4 where FF said "I was going to decide between adum and you, but it's clearly you" after I made 1 post. More likely you knew adum wasn't abductor, had some sort of role that made you think OS wasn't abductor (or just trusted your alleged gut read on him), and then simply quickvoted me to give town less time to talk. There was also that really long ISO adum did on me and FF; a great thing to have that will make you look town when you lynch the abdcutor, and proving FF was/wasn't the abductor is a lot easier than proving he is/isn't mafia when you know he is/isn't.
And then there was D5 where adum didn't vote until the last minute. That's the reason I have my vote on adum right now; adum overplayed the "who do I vote for" thing for too long. Read his D5 posts; you will see barely any suspicion cast on me (aside from doubting my claim, which as adum said, doesn't mean I'm scum), and you'll see a lot of pressure and attention directed to the mafia-claimed OS. Only at the very end does adum seem to have any doubt as to who he wanted to lynch, and that was his mistake: he wasn't consistent with how he wanted to appear. He WANTED to appear as though he was having trouble deciding between the claimed cop and the claimed mafia. Why? Because mafia wouldn't have trouble with that decision. Mafia would know that someone claiming mafia who isn't in their mafia must be lying (barring multimafias, but we're not dealing with those). See this:
Agree/disagree/make your own scumlist/alpha strike me and prove I'm a dunce, whatever. This game has stalled, no one's made any real stances and it's 5 days to deadline, so we need to do something. I'll do my full ISO tomorrow; I'm leaving time for the alpha strikers to come in so that I might not have to do it at all.
i'll hate you forever if you're scum x1
I believe X1's claim.
And I also believe he's town.
Vote: adum, FOS: FF
Pretty much the only conclusion that I can come to, and it makes sense to me as well. I'll lay out the logical framework.
Dan is town. I think I've explained this enough. In case you need to see my original post on this, here it is. Even if I'm wrong on that, he's not toDay's play; we're not getting much from his lynch, and I'll concede the game to scumDangr.
X1 is also town. Now, here's where things get meta-y. We've only seen 4 non-VT roles all game: self-watcher, music box (kind of a reverse self-watcher), jailer, and abductor. Half of these roles are completely useless without a targeting role, and the other half make self-watching type roles useless when they target them (well, I don't think the jailer will since it might not stop static abilities, but it's possible). The only other non-VT role we can assume is a mafia NK, which does the same thing as the abductor, with the exception of when the jailer also targets the same person (which would have the interaction of that person knowing the 2 people who visited him but not knowing which one is scum, which is nice balance-wise), but is unlikely to happen consistently. Beyond that, we can only assume mafia have some other targeting roles to work with. That simply doesn't seem like it'd be enough when there are two self-watcher type roles in the game, and especially not enough PRs for town. I'd be hesitant to clear X1 off his claim alone, but I've gotten general town vibes from him since D3 and I think I'm willing to trust my reads one more time this game.
Then comes what's probably gonna take up the rest of this Day.
FF and adum are the scumteam. I'll be willing to put up an actual "ISO" on these two later (I need to spend time on other games/things lol), but I'll give the gist.
adum himself has been individually scummy. Now that Swiss has flipped town, I know that his previous buddying of Swiss for hopping on wagons was either a legit callout town read on Swiss, or was scum buddying people they knew were town, and I think it's the latter. The no kill N2 was from mafia trying to kill Swiss, I'm pretty sure, and buddying people and then getting those people killed is a legit scum strategy.
FF is a lot harder to say is individually scummy due to him replacing the mega-inactive Pierre, but the main thing I'm seeing about him is he's been rushing/quickvoting lynches. He rushed/quickvoted Vocal's lynch (when he got around to making the case at least), and he rushed/quickvoted my lynch, and rushing lynches and giving town as little time as possible to talk out their options is pretty anti-town.
Where they shine most though is how they interacted together, which is where I saw the most of their scumminess from. adum started this early by repeatedly putting light pressure on Pierre ("I need to look into him") but never actually following up on that. DanGR pointed that out D1, and that could have been OK, but adum stretched things out by continuing to do this into D2. He also never gave his opinions on the Pierre modkill, although he did say "Pierre definitely need to die" and then never followed up on that either. The choice between letting someone get modkilled or not can be pretty big and game-deciding, and though he remembered me saying that I thought he was godfather, which I said at around the same time I said I wanted the Pierre modkill, he apparently didn't feel the need to weigh in on it.
Then FF joined and things started getting crazy. Right out of the gate adum and FF start arguing with each other-about how FF meta'd adum and thinks his play is different. That's an extremely easy way for mafia to distance each other without putting real pressure on each other; other people either DO think the meta matches up and they'll vote with you, or they think it fails and will vote against you... But most will simply not bother participating in the discussion/won't take a stance at all, and you'll have created some distance between your scumpartner without the risk of an actual lynch. The whole thing reeked of an attempt to get some late distancing in after basically not having a scum partner for half the game; I could easily see adum seeing he needed to distance himself more from his buddy when he never got the chance to.
Then there was D4 where FF said "I was going to decide between adum and you, but it's clearly you" after I made 1 post. More likely you knew adum wasn't abductor, had some sort of role that made you think OS wasn't abductor (or just trusted your alleged gut read on him), and then simply quickvoted me to give town less time to talk. There was also that really long ISO adum did on me and FF; a great thing to have that will make you look town when you lynch the abdcutor, and proving FF was/wasn't the abductor is a lot easier than proving he is/isn't mafia when you know he is/isn't.
And then there was D5 where adum didn't vote until the last minute. That's the reason I have my vote on adum right now; adum overplayed the "who do I vote for" thing for too long. Read his D5 posts; you will see barely any suspicion cast on me (aside from doubting my claim, which as adum said, doesn't mean I'm scum), and you'll see a lot of pressure and attention directed to the mafia-claimed OS. Only at the very end does adum seem to have any doubt as to who he wanted to lynch, and that was his mistake: he wasn't consistent with how he wanted to appear. He WANTED to appear as though he was having trouble deciding between the claimed cop and the claimed mafia. Why? Because mafia wouldn't have trouble with that decision. Mafia would know that someone claiming mafia who isn't in their mafia must be lying (barring multimafias, but we're not dealing with those). See this:
And here's some D5 posts (the last one was the one that made me think you thought I was town, adum):
ISO his D5 posts. You'll only see what he's describing here at the very end of the Day. As mafia, adum would have to act as if the decision was tough, because if he just snap-voted OS after he claimed mafia, it would be obvious he was mafia. But this decision was not really difficult in the first place; I had been answering questions, OS hadn't. OS had claimed mafia for seemingly no reason. Even if I was the "preferred target" or "scummy" (which adum has yet to actually prove that he thought that or how I WAS that at all), the very fact that OS had failed to backup his claim at all meant he very likely had to be lying, and was thus the abductor. Even if adum is slow at making decisions, it shouldn't have taken him this long to make this one.
Agree/disagree/make your own scumlist/alpha strike me and prove I'm a dunce, whatever. This game has stalled, no one's made any real stances and it's 5 days to deadline, so we need to do something. I'll do my full ISO tomorrow; I'm leaving time for the alpha strikers to come in so that I might not have to do it at all.
i'll hate you forever if you're scum x1
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
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FoS: X1
I find it particularly interestng that X1 didn't post very much about his role or actions as an "agent" up front even though he's been the main one pushing for everyone to claim. He laid out a very brief foundation, and said he'd post "content in a bit," even though he hasn't done it yet.
That said, is there any chance the role X1 has claimed is aligned on the mafia side or is an independent role? Yes, FF confirmed X1's role, but how sure can we be that it's strictly a townie role? Also, can someone link me to a more detailed description of this role? I googled it but I didn't come up with anything. Or did Hilt make it up? If the latter is the case why didn't X1 explain his role until asked, knowing it wasn't common? (assuming he is as experienced as he looks
Atm, (without confirming the alignment of X1's role) the only possibilities that exist are that...
-both X1 and FF are mafia.
-X1 is mafia and FF isn't.
-FF is mafia and X1 isn't.
-neither X1 nor FF is mafia.
However, if we can confirm that X1's claimed role is strictly town, I think it's logical to eliminate 1 of these and make it unlikely that another is true.
-X1 is mafia and FF isn't- (If it's confirmed that X1's claimed role is town only, it is not possible for FF to be a townie while X1 is a part of mafia or an independent role. X1 would have to be lying about ever sending a message. Likewise, FF would have to be lying about getting a message from X1. He wouldn't do that as town.)
-FF is mafia and X1 isn't- unlikely. (If FF was mafia this whole time, I find it highly unlikely that X1 wouldn't have died upon FF receiving a message. FF would have killed him, right, knowing he had a special role? Or perhaps he was planning on using this message as a way of confirming his innocence?)
---
I vaguely remember someone talking about the chance that there's two mafia as opposed to just one. Anyone remember where that's located in this thread before I start looking for it?
I find it particularly interestng that X1 didn't post very much about his role or actions as an "agent" up front even though he's been the main one pushing for everyone to claim. He laid out a very brief foundation, and said he'd post "content in a bit," even though he hasn't done it yet.
That said, is there any chance the role X1 has claimed is aligned on the mafia side or is an independent role? Yes, FF confirmed X1's role, but how sure can we be that it's strictly a townie role? Also, can someone link me to a more detailed description of this role? I googled it but I didn't come up with anything. Or did Hilt make it up? If the latter is the case why didn't X1 explain his role until asked, knowing it wasn't common? (assuming he is as experienced as he looks
Atm, (without confirming the alignment of X1's role) the only possibilities that exist are that...
-both X1 and FF are mafia.
-X1 is mafia and FF isn't.
-FF is mafia and X1 isn't.
-neither X1 nor FF is mafia.
However, if we can confirm that X1's claimed role is strictly town, I think it's logical to eliminate 1 of these and make it unlikely that another is true.
-FF is mafia and X1 isn't- unlikely. (If FF was mafia this whole time, I find it highly unlikely that X1 wouldn't have died upon FF receiving a message. FF would have killed him, right, knowing he had a special role? Or perhaps he was planning on using this message as a way of confirming his innocence?)
---
I vaguely remember someone talking about the chance that there's two mafia as opposed to just one. Anyone remember where that's located in this thread before I start looking for it?
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
lol epic ninja
Also, here's my role PM from Sonic Mafia. I had the same role as X1, so I assume they work similarly (I'm also assuming I'm allowed to post role pms from other, ended games):
Agent could be town or mafia; it's unlikely it'd be an independent, especially as we've already killed one. I'd say it's about even in terms of whether it could be town or mafia, but I've only seen it as town. I don't think we can determine X1's alignment solely based on his role (at least not when before considering his role in the context of this game :D).
Also, here's my role PM from Sonic Mafia. I had the same role as X1, so I assume they work similarly (I'm also assuming I'm allowed to post role pms from other, ended games):
It's a pretty simple role who's only use is information and misguidance, which both town and scum can use.
If there's mafia, there's definitely 2 of them; we're in lylo. It'd be too unbalanced (and very strange) for mafia to have only one member. A Serial Killer (independent who is basically like a one-man mafia) is possible but unlikely at this point, considering how awkward it would have been for him to avoid killing someone N4.
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- Apr 10, 2008
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Okay, so I didn't realize the severity of the situation we're in until just now. We're at lylo from here on out- that is, assuming there's 2 mafia, which I think is pretty likely. So assuming that, we have to lynch mafia twice in a row or we lose. >_> That's just not going to happen unless we all claim our real roles and get more information, so I think now is probably the most appropriate time to correct my own claim.
I'm the doctor. I get to protect 1 person (can't protect myself) a night from mafia night kills. I didn't know if my first "doctoring" actually happened because I was abducted night 1 till night 5, but I attempted to doctor Pierre because I figured if he was town, he had some pretty good experience at the game and would be targeted pretty soon. Night 2 through night 4 I couldn't do anything. Night 5 I attempted to doctor Adumbrodeus for a number of reasons I'm getting to.
I'm convinced Sir Bed is scum right now, mostly because of all his buddying towards me, but also because I agree with Adumbrodeus about his backtracking, and some other things I'll go into a bit more detail about.
I have 2 theories about his buddying towards me. 1. He's babysitting me this whole game, trying to get on my good side, and gearing some of his arguments towards things I've said in the game. For example, this stuff just recently:
Second theory is that he's been commenting on my townie-ness the whole game because he's been planning to fakeclaim cop for a while. Though this could very easily be in conjunction with him trying to buddy me. (The principle here being that strong townie vibes from an individual early on without a lot to go by can show you're a cop that has investigated that individual)
Also:
Also:
---
And if I'm right about at least some of that, Adumbrodeus and Sir Bed very likely aren't both mafia, because they're both voting for each other, and because of their exchange with OS. I don't think they would have said so much if it was just them versus OS. So I decided to doctor Adumbrodeus.
---
That all said I think it's likely Sir Bed and X1 are scum.
-I still don't believe X1's agent claim.
-FF voted for Sir Bed earlier this "week", which probably wouldn't happen if they were both mafia.
Eliminating myself, FF, and Adumbrodeus from the equation, and I'm left with Sir Bed and X1.
I'm the doctor. I get to protect 1 person (can't protect myself) a night from mafia night kills. I didn't know if my first "doctoring" actually happened because I was abducted night 1 till night 5, but I attempted to doctor Pierre because I figured if he was town, he had some pretty good experience at the game and would be targeted pretty soon. Night 2 through night 4 I couldn't do anything. Night 5 I attempted to doctor Adumbrodeus for a number of reasons I'm getting to.
I'm convinced Sir Bed is scum right now, mostly because of all his buddying towards me, but also because I agree with Adumbrodeus about his backtracking, and some other things I'll go into a bit more detail about.
I have 2 theories about his buddying towards me. 1. He's babysitting me this whole game, trying to get on my good side, and gearing some of his arguments towards things I've said in the game. For example, this stuff just recently:
This in an attempt to keep me around because I'm new to mafia. And also make it known that he thinks I'm town, enough that I'll think he's town, if that makes sense- better for mafia to not waste a night kill on me. He went a little overboard though. I would think a townie wouldn't be trying to convince everyone of another townie's innocence as much as Sir Bed did for me, because that would make me a great mafia night kill target.
Second theory is that he's been commenting on my townie-ness the whole game because he's been planning to fakeclaim cop for a while. Though this could very easily be in conjunction with him trying to buddy me. (The principle here being that strong townie vibes from an individual early on without a lot to go by can show you're a cop that has investigated that individual)
Also:
Right now he's saying Adumbrodeus and FF are mafia, voting for Adumbrodeus first and saying we should get FF next. But this bolded part of his post implies that he thinks Adumbrodeus is town. Which is it, Sir Bed?
Also:
I would NEVER think a townie would respond this way to a lynch of himself. He'd be telling us every single thing he's been keeping back from us instead of "Just responding to things as normal I guess." Not in a million years.
---
And if I'm right about at least some of that, Adumbrodeus and Sir Bed very likely aren't both mafia, because they're both voting for each other, and because of their exchange with OS. I don't think they would have said so much if it was just them versus OS. So I decided to doctor Adumbrodeus.
---
That all said I think it's likely Sir Bed and X1 are scum.
-I still don't believe X1's agent claim.
-FF voted for Sir Bed earlier this "week", which probably wouldn't happen if they were both mafia.
Eliminating myself, FF, and Adumbrodeus from the equation, and I'm left with Sir Bed and X1.
X1-12
Smash Champion
DanGR can die.
Also Jailer + Doc in a game with 1 killing faction/role?
I seriously will actually post content soon, today definitely
X1-12
Smash Champion
@DanGR: How much did you think about last Nights action?
I have a post typed up but want to know the answer to that first.
I have a post typed up but want to know the answer to that first.
X1-12
Smash Champion
^Explain as fully as you can please, also go into more detail as to why you protected adum
X1-12
Smash Champion
actually gonna apologise real quick cause the big post i typed up is saved in a notepad on my other comp which i cant acces till this time tomorrow once dan posts i will summarise it
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I've been keeping a close eye on Sir Bed ever since it seemed he got really attached to me, noting what I found odd, for example,the part about his actions after almost getting lynched. From the beginning I didn't liked his buddying towards me and his insistency of me automatically being town because of my views on Vocal's playstyle- this beginning after only 1 day.
Anyways, tbh, I didn't take as much time to think about what I'd like do over night as I needed to. I had finals up until the 10thish, and I mostly brushed over the pages of this thread up until that point, but still payed closer attention to Sir Bed's posts to keep me interested in this game. During the night though, after seeing I was released, I had to get some work done. I had to read through 60ish pages of content. And in order to send in a good night action I decided I'd re-skim everything, making sure my thoughts about Sir Bed were logical, and trying to decide who I would protect the whole time. It really came down to the following being the factors in my decision.
These sort of lingering thoughts about Sir Bed:
The first was in my head for a while.
The latter came to mind when OS and Adumbrodeus came to the conclusion Sir Bed was probably lying about being a cop.
I agreed with Adumbrodeus that this was the most likely at the end of the day:
Overall I decided to doctor based around on my best read (Sir Bed), and my thoughts about the chances Adumbrodeus and Sir Bed are both mafia. I figured protecting Adumbrodeus would be a good decision because of their exchanges with OS and each other on day 5. I thought Adumbrodeus had a very logical thought pattern for everything he talked about, and Sir Bed was all over the place. It was a much less composed and conspiring atmosphere than what I'd expect from 2 mafiates trying to set it all up to make it look like they needed to think about the decision to kill OS.
Apart from that I thought Mafia (Sir Bed being a part of that, in my mind) would try to kill Adumbrodeus because it looked like he'd definitely be the frontrunner for pushing for Sir Bed to die the next day.
The rest of my last post is my argument that Sir Bed is scum rather than supporting my protection of Adumbrodeus on Day 5. I formatted it pretty poorly in that regard...
X1-12
Smash Champion
If you were town doc, you should have protected Swiss and cleared you both, Nabe died while you and Swiss were abducted.
Also why is there 2 protective roles in a game with 1 killing role?
Why did you lie about your claim? how did you miss the fact it was LYLO (I clearly stated it a couple of times) and even if it wasn't why would you lie in a mass-claim situation?
@Dan: do you not beleive I have a note ability or not believe that I am town with it? you seem to have posted suggesting both. Well the role does exist as a maf/indy role but if you look at flavour
Anju - jailer - runs an inn
Guruguru - music boc - plays a music box
them - aliens - indies who kidnap people (or maybe animals or something idr)
yeah all flipped roles and alignments fit with their alignment/role in the game.
So what evil or bad messenger is there in MM? none. Postman, town agent.
^ that was a summary
Also why is there 2 protective roles in a game with 1 killing role?
Why did you lie about your claim? how did you miss the fact it was LYLO (I clearly stated it a couple of times) and even if it wasn't why would you lie in a mass-claim situation?
@Dan: do you not beleive I have a note ability or not believe that I am town with it? you seem to have posted suggesting both. Well the role does exist as a maf/indy role but if you look at flavour
Anju - jailer - runs an inn
Guruguru - music boc - plays a music box
them - aliens - indies who kidnap people (or maybe animals or something idr)
yeah all flipped roles and alignments fit with their alignment/role in the game.
So what evil or bad messenger is there in MM? none. Postman, town agent.
^ that was a summary
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
unvote
doc claim may change things
haven't read anything else yet, hold on
doc claim may change things
haven't read anything else yet, hold on
X1-12
Smash Champion
doc claim is not true.
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
swf ate my post; this took longer than it should have >_>
I'm not sure how I feel about doc claim. It's possible DanGR didn't claim outright because he thought it was in the best interests of town to protect himself and his role, and didn't realize we were in lylo. I don't like the first bit because doc is not really a useful role for town to hide/have in lylo, but I can easily see that as a newer player overvaluing the value of a doc in any situation. I don't like the last bit because it reads too much like newbtown acting oblivious to things so that people think "huh, he doesn't know about X, he can't be mafia!", and I DO want to know how he missed us being in lylo.
X1, doc+jailer is pretty reasonable when there's an abductor on the loose, especially since they both work against the other 2 factions (doc works against mafia, jailer works against abductor, though it also works against mafia but with a cost). I was expecting a ton more power on town's side with an abductor in this small of a game, and DanGR's claim fits (otherwise scum would must have a ton of anti-abductor roles).
Question: What does scumDanGR gain from fakeclaiming doc? Aside from attracting attention to himself and backtracking on important things, things that scum wants to avoid lol. I can't see any motive behind scumDanGR claiming doc, especially when there was barely any pressure on him. Doesn't mean there can't be a motive, and doesn't mean there needs to be one, but as long as it doesn't mean DanGR is autoscum, I'm comfortable enough trusting my reads and logic.
It does make me feel less comfortable about Dan, though (and X1 as a consequence of there being more PRs for town), but that doesn't matter, since Dan isn't the play and X1 probably isn't either: adum/FF is.
@DanGR
@ Your buddying accusations (too awkward to quote @_@), yes, I was buddying you, because I felt I had a good read on someone for something that no one else had picked up on, and I wanted to make sure I told town that on the offchance I was offed N1. I wasn't actually planning on explaining my full reasoning (check back to D1; at most, I gave a few lines on why I thought you were town before you asked me to elaborate), but you pushed me to explain it, so I obliged. The secondary reason behind me buddying you is that I wanted to get killed; this was the first time I've been VT in a mafia game, and I decided I wanted to try out the strategy Praxis had used (and told me about on AIM) when he was a VT in Bioware: "be such an obnoxious townie that scum want you dead so you get killed over PRs" (read my posts in the Halo mafia mafia QT and you'll see me correctly identify Praxis as VT based on this, although I didn't explain how I knew in the QT). That was why I immediately put down my reads on everyone in the game (which I'd never done before, and which I later contradicted by saying "I'm not the type to put all my cards on the table" XD) and started off by going into detail about why I thought you were town. I thought that SOME of that would attract some attention of the mafia, but it didn't end up working out.
No, I'm not attempting to make you think I'm town because I think you're town, or because you're new to mafia, or whatever. I'm just saying who I think is town, which I've been doing all game.
2. I have been planning to fakeclaim cop...since D3. If I was planning to fakeclaim since D1, I would have made myself look much more like a cop and OS would have had a harder time disproving my claim, though I guess you could argue that that was a mistake on my part. >.>
2. That doesn't directly imply I think that he's town. It either played a part because scum saw what adum said and decided to go off that, or, because adum himself is scum, he didn't think I was cop and decided to go off what he, himself said.
X1/Dan, I'm quite sure you're both town, so please comment on the FF/adum situation so that we can actually progress this Day.
No reason my vote shouldn't be where it was.
Vote: adum
I'm not sure how I feel about doc claim. It's possible DanGR didn't claim outright because he thought it was in the best interests of town to protect himself and his role, and didn't realize we were in lylo. I don't like the first bit because doc is not really a useful role for town to hide/have in lylo, but I can easily see that as a newer player overvaluing the value of a doc in any situation. I don't like the last bit because it reads too much like newbtown acting oblivious to things so that people think "huh, he doesn't know about X, he can't be mafia!", and I DO want to know how he missed us being in lylo.
X1, doc+jailer is pretty reasonable when there's an abductor on the loose, especially since they both work against the other 2 factions (doc works against mafia, jailer works against abductor, though it also works against mafia but with a cost). I was expecting a ton more power on town's side with an abductor in this small of a game, and DanGR's claim fits (otherwise scum would must have a ton of anti-abductor roles).
Question: What does scumDanGR gain from fakeclaiming doc? Aside from attracting attention to himself and backtracking on important things, things that scum wants to avoid lol. I can't see any motive behind scumDanGR claiming doc, especially when there was barely any pressure on him. Doesn't mean there can't be a motive, and doesn't mean there needs to be one, but as long as it doesn't mean DanGR is autoscum, I'm comfortable enough trusting my reads and logic.
It does make me feel less comfortable about Dan, though (and X1 as a consequence of there being more PRs for town), but that doesn't matter, since Dan isn't the play and X1 probably isn't either: adum/FF is.
@DanGR
@ Your buddying accusations (too awkward to quote @_@), yes, I was buddying you, because I felt I had a good read on someone for something that no one else had picked up on, and I wanted to make sure I told town that on the offchance I was offed N1. I wasn't actually planning on explaining my full reasoning (check back to D1; at most, I gave a few lines on why I thought you were town before you asked me to elaborate), but you pushed me to explain it, so I obliged. The secondary reason behind me buddying you is that I wanted to get killed; this was the first time I've been VT in a mafia game, and I decided I wanted to try out the strategy Praxis had used (and told me about on AIM) when he was a VT in Bioware: "be such an obnoxious townie that scum want you dead so you get killed over PRs" (read my posts in the Halo mafia mafia QT and you'll see me correctly identify Praxis as VT based on this, although I didn't explain how I knew in the QT). That was why I immediately put down my reads on everyone in the game (which I'd never done before, and which I later contradicted by saying "I'm not the type to put all my cards on the table" XD) and started off by going into detail about why I thought you were town. I thought that SOME of that would attract some attention of the mafia, but it didn't end up working out.
No, I'm not attempting to make you think I'm town because I think you're town, or because you're new to mafia, or whatever. I'm just saying who I think is town, which I've been doing all game.
1. I said you were town D1. Unless I was N0 cop (which I didn't claim) or Day cop (also didn't claim), I would have no way of knowing you were town if I was using my "clearing" of you as a fake cop investigation.
2. I have been planning to fakeclaim cop...since D3. If I was planning to fakeclaim since D1, I would have made myself look much more like a cop and OS would have had a harder time disproving my claim, though I guess you could argue that that was a mistake on my part. >.>
1. I said that before I started going after adum/started seeing the FF/adum connections. There are numerous reasons why I would say something like that: to make him feel more comfortable (which may have worked and may have drawn him into saying he was having difficulty between me and OS when he didn't), because I hadn't yet thought of him as mafia, or because I was simply annoyed at mafia not killing me and pointed out the only thing I could see that would make them do that. It was mostly a combination of these 3.
2. That doesn't directly imply I think that he's town. It either played a part because scum saw what adum said and decided to go off that, or, because adum himself is scum, he didn't think I was cop and decided to go off what he, himself said.
I didn't really have anything I was keeping back, lol. I'd already told everyone I had town reads on everyone except adum/FF/OS, and I'd already made my case on adum. I was a VT, I didn't have any info from my role, and I'd already given out stances on everyone in the game. I didn't see anything else I really needed to say.
X1/Dan, I'm quite sure you're both town, so please comment on the FF/adum situation so that we can actually progress this Day.
No reason my vote shouldn't be where it was.
Vote: adum
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
oh, and I'll ISO after people actually say something about adum/FF, since if people are just gonna tunnel on me/X1/Dan and lose, there's no point in me doing it >.>
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,860
I'm working on my response to X1 right now. In the meantime though.
And why aren't FF and Adumbrodeus saying anything.
Sir Bed, what do you think about that last paragraph?
And why aren't FF and Adumbrodeus saying anything.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Currently V/LA (which has stood the entire semester btw), I'm gonna be done with school very soon, in the meantime, I should have a post on this up very soon.
Where is FF though? He said he was gonna start contributing mondayish.
Where is FF though? He said he was gonna start contributing mondayish.
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
^lol he's doing it today too
And second, X1 sent his message to FF last Night. FF would have had to receive the message BEFORE sending in the NK in order for him to kill X1 because of him being the agent, and that's not how the role works (FF should have received the note D6, after the kill had already been made).
First, scum wouldn't HAVE to kill him as soon as they found out he was agent. He isn't much of a threat (the agent role, especially as town, isn't really all that powerful, I know, I've played it) and if they thought they had better kills (Swiss is a good, strong, active player that likely would not have tolerated the game stalling out as it has toDay), they would make them.
And second, X1 sent his message to FF last Night. FF would have had to receive the message BEFORE sending in the NK in order for him to kill X1 because of him being the agent, and that's not how the role works (FF should have received the note D6, after the kill had already been made).
Blatant prod dodge, my last final is in a few hours. I may be able to add something tonight.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
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- 6,860
Hey Adumbrodeus, is that you there lurking this thread? Someone keeps checking back every 5 minutes.
How about it?
Since you must be almost done, and I am done, you wanna coordinate our posts? I'll post first, you post second, but within a minute of me. Don't want you switchin around stuff in your post in case you're waiting on me to say something first.
How about it?
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,860
Ah w/e. I have other stuff to do.
---
X1, I'm going to address this to a general audience because I use your name a lot in this. I don't want to confuse anyone with a bunch of "you"s.
And is that even the case? There was an abductor. And there's at least 1 mafia, probably 2. That's at least 2 killing roles right there, perhaps 3, right? And I think we should all assume there's 2 mafia.
Claiming doctor- I hate to play the newb/ignorance card, but I just didn't know what lylo meant until I looked it up yesterday, in real time... All the posts that mentioned it (there weren't many) before I decided to look it up didn't make it seem very important. I figured it was just a word for the stage of the game we're in, just like RVS is, with about as much importance.
Well yesterday in real time I decided to re-read* again and analyze everything in the thread, including looking up the word.
I realized after all that, that at the rate things were going, statistically town wasn't going to win unless everyone claimed their true role and we manage to establish more of a foundation for our votes. That was when I decided it'd be better to go ahead and claim my real role for today's sake instead of trying to save it for someone else later. In other words, I’m betting on town having a better chance at winning with all the info we hopefully get from my claim, even if that means I’ll probably get night killed.
*- I read through the thread once after the day began, and this next time in part because I looked up lylo.
---
X1, I'm going to address this to a general audience because I use your name a lot in this. I don't want to confuse anyone with a bunch of "you"s.
I don't understand. How would that clear both of us?
I don't know.
And is that even the case? There was an abductor. And there's at least 1 mafia, probably 2. That's at least 2 killing roles right there, perhaps 3, right? And I think we should all assume there's 2 mafia.
Claiming town- My train of thought was that I didn't wanna get night killed as a doctor. Regardless of Sir Bed buddying me, if he's mafia (and even if he isn't), the night of me claiming I would more than likely die. I didn't/can't think of a reason I wouldn't. And I didn't wanna waste a valuable role. I wanted to use it tomorrow.
Claiming doctor- I hate to play the newb/ignorance card, but I just didn't know what lylo meant until I looked it up yesterday, in real time... All the posts that mentioned it (there weren't many) before I decided to look it up didn't make it seem very important. I figured it was just a word for the stage of the game we're in, just like RVS is, with about as much importance.
Well yesterday in real time I decided to re-read* again and analyze everything in the thread, including looking up the word.
I realized after all that, that at the rate things were going, statistically town wasn't going to win unless everyone claimed their true role and we manage to establish more of a foundation for our votes. That was when I decided it'd be better to go ahead and claim my real role for today's sake instead of trying to save it for someone else later. In other words, I’m betting on town having a better chance at winning with all the info we hopefully get from my claim, even if that means I’ll probably get night killed.
*- I read through the thread once after the day began, and this next time in part because I looked up lylo.
You worded that first sentence weirdly so I'm going to talk in brief statements to avoid confusion while still addressing everything. ALSO, I'm answering these questions as if I'm reviewing what I thought before you asked me all these questions, because that's what you were interested in, and also because peeking at the rest of the thread while writing this and thinking about your pressure on me changes things a little. I'll be sure to follow-up on what I think about the whole situation after I'm done with this post and take a break- probably for tomorrow, in real time. But for now, what's in this quote is what I used to think:
And you can't really prove how important flavor is to Hilt. But let's say it's really important because all the roles claimed and revealed so far have been flavorful. (I'm Dr. Mizumi, btw) Surely there's some sort of evil courier or note-taker for an evil guy/group or something similar somewhere in the game (I didn't play the whole game, so I don't know), and if there isn't I'm sure Hilt could think of something at least vaguely similar to the agent role if he really wanted to have an agent in this game.my former thoughts said:
X1-12
Smash Champion
Here is that post I didn't post earlier,
Other scum is probably Sir B. I will fill you guys in when I get round to it - walls of post are long to work through
D1 roxy lynch
N1 BSL dies
N1 DanGR abducted
D2 NL
N2 Swiss abducted
D3 Vocal Lynched
N3 Nabe killed
N3 X1 abdcuted
D4 NL
N4 FF abducted
D5 OS lynched
N6 Swiss killed
ME:
@Dan: do you believe I don't have the note ability? that it is not real? The only way I could be lying about the note is if FF was my scumbuddy. Also LOOOTS of evidence to back it up. OS abducted me the Night after I had noted him. Swiss said this:
===================================================
DanGR
Yes there is a chance I could be a non-town aligned messenger but as I've already covered, its unlikely. Full details are I can send 1 player a message each Night, which will be delivered anonymously, it can contain anything and be any length. I am flattered that you can call me experienced but I've only been around for a couple of months.
FF voting for Sir B is, ironically, weak. there are some things called WIFOM and bussing.
Why is he scum?
-1 killing role and 2 protective roles in a 11man? unlikely
-'Forgot/didn't realise it was LYLO' leading him to lie about his claim is scummy as ****. Also skimmy-skimmy
-Protected Adum when protecting Swiss would have cleared himself and Swiss, leaving 2 clear in a 5/6 man LYLO which would GREATLY increasing chances of win for town
~Questions for DanGR:
Why don't you beleive my claim?
Why were you so fast to assume Adum and Sir B are not both Mafia?
Stuff on other scum coming later
N1 BSL dies
N1 DanGR abducted
D2 NL
N2 Swiss abducted
D3 Vocal Lynched
N3 Nabe killed
N3 X1 abdcuted
D4 NL
N4 FF abducted
D5 OS lynched
N6 Swiss killed
ME:
@Dan: do you believe I don't have the note ability? that it is not real? The only way I could be lying about the note is if FF was my scumbuddy. Also LOOOTS of evidence to back it up. OS abducted me the Night after I had noted him. Swiss said this:
So my ability is confirmed. I could be a mafia spy or something of the like but unlikely. It seems in this game flavour is linked to role and alignment. (Them are just a random bunch of aliens, Anju owns an inn, kaepora gaebora fits self-watcher, Guru guru fits music box. Postman fits town agent.) and I don't think there's an evil character in MM who fits my ability. Feel free to disbleive flavour but either way my townness should become apparent as I deliver the last 2 scum to you on a plate.
===================================================
DanGR
Is it really odd? I pushed for claims because its LYLO and that's what you do in LYLO. Do you think me not revealing much about my role 'interesting'? because that's a scummy underhand comment if I've ever seen one. Try asking what the details were before attacking someone for not releasing them. Each of the notes I sent basically included telling people my role and telling them my scumpicks (with the exception of N1).DanGR said:
Yes there is a chance I could be a non-town aligned messenger but as I've already covered, its unlikely. Full details are I can send 1 player a message each Night, which will be delivered anonymously, it can contain anything and be any length. I am flattered that you can call me experienced but I've only been around for a couple of months.
My claim is pretty legit and flavour pseudo-clears me.
FF voting for Sir B is, ironically, weak. there are some things called WIFOM and bussing.
Why is he scum?
-1 killing role and 2 protective roles in a 11man? unlikely
-'Forgot/didn't realise it was LYLO' leading him to lie about his claim is scummy as ****. Also skimmy-skimmy
-Protected Adum when protecting Swiss would have cleared himself and Swiss, leaving 2 clear in a 5/6 man LYLO which would GREATLY increasing chances of win for town
~Questions for DanGR:
Why don't you beleive my claim?
Why were you so fast to assume Adum and Sir B are not both Mafia?
Stuff on other scum coming later
Other scum is probably Sir B. I will fill you guys in when I get round to it - walls of post are long to work through
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Not so much lurking as juggling finishing up final projects and studying with trying to eek out a post.
And why would I coordinate?
Regardless, Sir Bed is scum via crossvoting, every other scumteam would be able to alpha strike me and win.
As for why he didn't kill me, simple, I was pushing for FF as obvious-scum, something I still believed up until sir bed was confirmed scum via crossvoting, confirmed scum still holds a lot more weight then NA analysis. If FF is his scummate, he considered himself in a better position and could pull off a strong bus and then kill game next night. If FF is town, then he was hoping that I would lay a vote on him early on so they could alpha strike. I don't know which it is atm, their interactions don't strongly suggest scumteam, so figuring out a scummate requires a lot more analysis. Leaning towards dangr because of the lie, though unsure if it's just inexperience.
How? Explain please.
Your buddying accusation is completely ridiculous, again this is one of the scummiest things about you, by saying "saying somebody is town is buddying" you have given yourself cause to go after everyone in the game. Maybe if you were just wrong about mafia theory I could believe it, but pretty much everyone here has said that somebody is a town read, why am I the only person you've been going after with this accusation? You're inconsistently applying it, suggesting an ulterior motive.
Also, no. That only works if they get lynched.
Because there were more relevant targets at the time, pierre was just inactive until later, not scummy.
Unless you have some proof, that's definite WIFORM, keep in mind I was a primary target a short time ago, could easily be mafia searching for a myslynch, or he could legitimately believe it. Furthermore his case against Vocal was for similar reasons, attitude over content. Was vocal his scumbuddy too?
And why was I so willing to start a wagon on him at a time when there was pretty much a vacuum and he was under a fair amount of pressure so he could very easily be lynched? Considering the most players on a wagon at that point was two, why take that risk?
Skim less, I believed OS wasn't the abductor because of NA analysis, I think and still do think that mafia went for OS, not swiss, and he was jailed that night. OS was a far more townie-looking target which made him a far more likely doc target then Swiss was, and also a reasonable mafia target. Kills are often excluded from town roleblocking, and abduction is balanced like a kill, so it makes sense.
As far as d4, you don't seem to realize how epic a mishandling that would be if we were a scumteam, with 2 out of 4 votes, why would we let the day pass when it increased our odds of losing to the abductor so substantially, no lynch could happen without both of us, whereas you seemed very keen to lynch either me or FF and by the end of the day and I certainly couldn't trust OS to just stay in my pocket.
Why no lynch? I could've easily said "we lynch OS" after I came to the conclusion that the abductor was probably OS.
Or, OS lying or not lying was the focus for that day, you agreed with my logic on that already. You would've made it a lot easier by choosing to actually play with your given role as opposed to "fakeclaiming as town" since you were still extremely scummy and had a strong possibility of being the abductor because of that, but saving it till next game day saying "it was to stop the abductor" makes it much easier from a town-cred prospective. Furthermore OS was poking mile-wide holes in your claim easily enough.
And you know, I had things like this:
And it's not like my suspicions of OS came out of the aether, my statements here before OS claimed mafia, specifically the RB immune, merely by process of elimination because you seemed like such a cop.
Here:
Also, my first post the next day involved saying that I still believed your claims cause the crumbs were legit, but hadn't read up yet:
My first few posts in D5 again strongly suggested this:
Keep in mind, I NEVER quickvote as town in lylo, I want as much information as possible, and if that means dragging the day along, I sure as heck will, even if I think somebody is most likely one way or the other. That saved you in mylo btw, I was on my computer, waiting for my date to meet me, and I could've easily tossed a vote down, but I didn't, because I've learned the cardinal rule of lylo, take as long as you can. Only reason I'd do it is confirmed scum.
Furthermore, I'd like to add that I
But do you know what really seals it for me? (even if I didn't have cross-voting)
Your quickvote.
Yesterday OS was hammering away at you suspecting me strongly, but never having a vote on me (you pretty much said essentially that you were sure that you had lost).
Today, you seemed to have the same level of sureness of me being mafia, but you chose to lay a vote on me early on.
Why? Because yesterday you weren't absolutely sure me dying would win you the game, so you waited. Today, you know that me dying will win you the game, so you're "sure I'm scum". Aka, you're mafia.
X1-12
Smash Champion
ngl but if Adum and FF are up for just lynching DanGR and SirB straight off the bat then I'm totally down for that. If you'd rather not then I will make my posts with reasoning. btw I'd rather Dan first
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Lets not be hasty, sir bed is the only confirmed scum cause I'm not sure Dangr isn't doing this out of simple inexperience, we've already had a lying townie so I don't wanna dismiss the possibility yet, especially since he didn't get caught in a lie, he admitted he fakeclaimed.
One thing that bothers me about your case, what do you mean by saying that targeting swiss would clear both him and swiss. How would he know to target swiss?
Seems the most likely scumbuddy after review, but not necessarily.
We still have daylight, lets take our time.
One thing that bothers me about your case, what do you mean by saying that targeting swiss would clear both him and swiss. How would he know to target swiss?
Seems the most likely scumbuddy after review, but not necessarily.
We still have daylight, lets take our time.
X1-12
Smash Champion
OK I thought it through wrong, but nonetheless since DanGR and Swiss were abducted N1 and N2 respectively. Nabe was killed N4 which meant that 1 mafia was unabducted at that time. if Dan and Swiss were both alive now we would know that atleast 1 of them is not definitely not scum as both scum could not have been abducted at that point.
I also just don't beleive Dan is doctor, and thats not something you can put down to bad play
I also just don't beleive Dan is doctor, and thats not something you can put down to bad play
X1-12
Smash Champion
DanGR, did you lie about char claim as well as ability or not? Are you actually gorman?
X1-12
Smash Champion
Adum, with a jailer flipped do you still think there's likely a roleblocker?
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
True. Unfortunately that doesn't eliminate any suspects. Maybe after we kill one mafia it would.
Fair enough, but what would he gain by claiming VT, then switching it to doctor.
Unless FF isn't scum, as I pointed out his pattern strongly suggests process of elimination, roleblocker is by far the most common scum role that could achieve that.
Why would a town jailer make me doubt the existence of a scum roleblocker?
@FF: Care to respond to my iso's conclusions?
@Dangr: Care to make a case for why you're the doc?
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
Since adum hasn't been alpha-striked, and everyone has had a reasonable chance to post alongside one another, there is now 100% guaranteed scum between me and adum. Our lynch choice should only be between him and me.
FF's case on Vocal was entirely different.
Here was the gist:
Notice that one of these cases was the cause of that player getting lynched, while the other case went by completely unnoticed.
You've always been completely safe when it came to how you approached Pierre/FF.
Why are we talking about who mafia killed, again? Sounds like you know more than we do.
My analysis of the lynch-no lynch scenario may have played a part in your decision to no lynch, as well; you saw that it had no risks for you, and had the possible chance of leaving yourself with you 2 and the abductor, along with just better odds of finding the abductor.
If the holes OS made in my claim were a "mile-wide" (and I disagree with you on that), then the holes I was poking in his were the diameter of the sun. I don't believe yesterday was a hard decision for you, and toDay I tried to figure out if you were just taking your time or wanted to look not-mafia. I've determined it's the latter.
What motive would I have, as scum, to withhold my claim until toDay? Explain how that motive could not be the same motive a townie would have.
@Bold hey der i c ur makin clames dat u havnt profd
wut up wit dat
You gave me no reason that made me suspect you thought I was scum, thus, I had no reason to claim, because I ASSUMED you would make the logical decision and kill OS and his bad claim. You saw how much I was playing around with OS at the end there, right? His claim was ludicrous.
Well, since all the scum are doing it, I think I'll give it a try.
You know what makes me certain you dat scummai brummai from anotha mummai?
You're not voting me.
There's guaranteed mafia between us, adum. You trying to take it slow so you don't look like you're OMGUSing? Yeah, that doesn't matter. One of us is scum, and there's no reason one of us shouldn't be lynched toDay (unless we want to go for FF, which I'm also totally up for BTW).
It's 3 days to deadline, bub.
And we haven't done ****.
), that you and FF is scum. DanGR is town for his early stances on Vocal and for claiming doc in a very awkward situation (what motive would he have?). X1 is town for having a generally townie game (case on Vocal seemed TvT to me, having similar reads to me, claiming a PR when town barely has any). So, you 2 are the only people left to be scum, and your interactions between each other are scummy.
@X1, Dan claimed his char in his post:
Is what I said above^ what you mean by crossvoting? If so, uh, it only proves that there's scum between us, lol. I know you're mafia now.
I'll quote the post I made back then when you brought up this same point (which btw you never responded to):
Did anyone else clear Swiss on such a weak reason? I didn't. :/
I was also pretty damm inactive for most of the game, and yet you never really pressured me or attempted to ask me questions, aside from our little tussle at the end of D2. Be consistent pls?
What about that situation was WIFOM? You made a safe argument against someone who was making a safe argument back at you. You don't think that's scummy?
FF's case on Vocal was entirely different.
Here was the gist:
It wasn't that FF thought Vocal was "playing differently from how he usually plays", because that'd be a very hard thing to determine considering Vocal had only been in one game. FF's case stems from the fact that Vocal was playing in the mindset of a new abductor; that Vocal has been doing things that would make sense if he were the abductor, just as ANYONE ELSE doing those things would ALSO make sense if they were the abductor. That isn't meta, because it applies to an entire playerbase, not just one person, and it seemed pretty convincing at the time.
Notice that one of these cases was the cause of that player getting lynched, while the other case went by completely unnoticed.
Because you were pushing him based on META REASONS. Remember that OS lynch Swiss tried to push? Based around Swiss thinking OS was scum based on the NK, because that seems like the type of kill he'd make, and that Swiss knew OS wouldn't have let the Roxy lynch happen because of meta reasons? Yeah, that's why.
You've always been completely safe when it came to how you approached Pierre/FF.
No, it doesn't. Why the hell do we have a jailer, then? All it's going to do is block the agent and the doc (woo, pro-gaming?) and whatever roles the mafia might have. There had to be SOMETHING to counterbalance the abductor for town, and jailer was it. And no, "often" the roleblocker is able to block the mafia kill; that's what they're for.
Why are we talking about who mafia killed, again? Sounds like you know more than we do.
Actually, I think it decreased it. If OS chose to abduct me, you 2 would know guaranteed who was the abductor and could take your sweet time distancing yourselves and making yourself look like not scum before just hammering him. Also how, exactly, would it increase it? You were in control of the kill; you knew there was no way you could screw it up.
My analysis of the lynch-no lynch scenario may have played a part in your decision to no lynch, as well; you saw that it had no risks for you, and had the possible chance of leaving yourself with you 2 and the abductor, along with just better odds of finding the abductor.
Lol, so, back off the claimed cop and go for the other target? That doesn't sound like you know something we don't at all. /sarcasm
OK...what are you saying here, exactly? Yes, OS lying or not was the focus of the day. Did you not see how he wasn't answering the questions I was asking him at all? I could PERHAPS understand you being torn midDay, when you thought both our claims were false, but no, you continued to pressure OS and still thought he was abductor, and at the end of the Day, after OS still hadn't answered my questions, you were like "PHEW THIS IS SO CLOSE SUCH A HARD DECISION" and then came back toDay with the "razor's edge" BS.
If the holes OS made in my claim were a "mile-wide" (and I disagree with you on that), then the holes I was poking in his were the diameter of the sun. I don't believe yesterday was a hard decision for you, and toDay I tried to figure out if you were just taking your time or wanted to look not-mafia. I've determined it's the latter.
What motive would I have, as scum, to withhold my claim until toDay? Explain how that motive could not be the same motive a townie would have.
@Bold hey der i c ur makin clames dat u havnt profd
wut up wit dat
You gave me no reason that made me suspect you thought I was scum, thus, I had no reason to claim, because I ASSUMED you would make the logical decision and kill OS and his bad claim. You saw how much I was playing around with OS at the end there, right? His claim was ludicrous.
Oh boy don't this seem familiar.
Well, since all the scum are doing it, I think I'll give it a try.
You know what makes me certain you dat scummai brummai from anotha mummai?
You're not voting me.
There's guaranteed mafia between us, adum. You trying to take it slow so you don't look like you're OMGUSing? Yeah, that doesn't matter. One of us is scum, and there's no reason one of us shouldn't be lynched toDay (unless we want to go for FF, which I'm also totally up for BTW).
Early on?
It's 3 days to deadline, bub.
And we haven't done ****.
No. I'm sure that lynching you will win the game because I've determined, by process of elimination (you know, that thing you said would help us win this game
), that you and FF is scum. DanGR is town for his early stances on Vocal and for claiming doc in a very awkward situation (what motive would he have?). X1 is town for having a generally townie game (case on Vocal seemed TvT to me, having similar reads to me, claiming a PR when town barely has any). So, you 2 are the only people left to be scum, and your interactions between each other are scummy.@X1, Dan claimed his char in his post:
also x1, please explain why the hell you think dan is scum, because he's not >_> you read my post about his claim, did you not?
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Is what I said above^ what you mean by crossvoting? If so, uh, it only proves that there's scum between us, lol. I know you're mafia now.
You're right, I never responded to it, I missed it way back then, but it's easy to respond to now.
Recklessness is a town-tell, there are exceptions, but in general scum doesn't like drawing attention to themselves. Joining wagons is a good way to stay under the radar, but STARTING them isn't.
Swiss was starting wagons left and right, not being very discriminating, he was definitely reckless to the point that I don't see an experienced scum player like swiss doing it, because if somebody flipped town, he'd be under way too much pressure.
I've been saying you need to die since D2 dude, that's not light pressure. I don't need to constantly be asking you stuff in order to have a committed stance on you.
Because you're choosing to interpret something fundamentally neutral as inherently scummy. FF's case was definitely scummy, it lacked any semblance of actual content and could've easily been opportunism based on the fact that I was in hot water last game day.
Again, why did I try to get him lynched as a result of that?
Arguments about how a new player would act mentally playing a role like the abductor are just as subjective and safe as using meta because there's no real data on this, it's just what "makes sense" to the players, and any behavior out of the ordinary can be used.FF's case on Vocal was entirely different.
Here was the gist:
It wasn't that FF thought Vocal was "playing differently from how he usually plays", because that'd be a very hard thing to determine considering Vocal had only been in one game. FF's case stems from the fact that Vocal was playing in the mindset of a new abductor; that Vocal has been doing things that would make sense if he were the abductor, just as ANYONE ELSE doing those things would ALSO make sense if they were the abductor. That isn't meta, because it applies to an entire playerbase, not just one person, and it seemed pretty convincing at the time.
Notice that one of these cases was the cause of that player getting lynched, while the other case went by completely unnoticed.
Look at my record of metaing OS. You were in bioware, you remember how confident I was in my read of OS. Also read BIM 2, I pegged him as a bomb easy. I can point to others, as well as games that I haven't played in and just hit OS up and said, "hey dude, you [insert proper alignment here]", with occasionally realizing what role he was.
I understand how he thinks ridiculously well, because of that I'm very confident in my ability to meta him.
Firstly, you're totally wrong. 2-1-9 is VERY protown, so interference with pro-town roles is probably the reason why there'd be a jailer in the first place.
As for roleblockers... no, check out bioware again, that was a major topic of discussion (turned out I effectively couldn't).
Read my iso, I established it quite well.Why are we talking about who mafia killed, again? Sounds like you know more than we do.
Which assumes OS would abduct you, considering you were the most suspicious player that day... that's pretty ridiculous. It would have been either me or FF, and OS was setting up for his mafia claim, he was much more likely to be mafia, so OS picked him.
When one of us would obviously be targeted by the abductor? Both you and OS were under suspicion at that point, especially after I pointed out the possibility of roleblocking not affecting the abductor.
You had good breadcrumbs? Why would you saying I'm innocent make me believe your copclaim if I were mafia? Since we're all claimed up and there are no cops, I couldn't have been a godfather.
Because you still were scummy as ****. Simple.
Dude, OS poked far worse holes in your argument then you did in the reverse. Reread the day, your claim of me as a godfather prior to when you said you investigated me was crushing for example.
Easy, town cred. You think it would grant you a lot more credibility for you to reverse your claim now rather then reverse it as a perceived reaction to the mile wide holes poked in your story.
Town doesn't care about how townie their actions are percieved, just how townie they are.
Check your iso, so much scummyness. There's a reason why everyone is willing to lynch you today.
Ok... why?
You gave me no reason that made me suspect you thought I was scum, thus, I had no reason to claim, because I ASSUMED you would make the logical decision and kill OS and his bad claim. You saw how much I was playing around with OS at the end there, right? His claim was ludicrous.
Seriously, there's nothing ludicrous about sacking a scumteam member to defeat somebody that will defeat mafia automatically.
Cause unlike you, I have another scum to find, I don't want you dead until as late in the day as possible.Oh boy don't this seem familiar.
Well, since all the scum are doing it, I think I'll give it a try.
You know what makes me certain you dat scummai brummai from anotha mummai?
You're not voting me.
And now you're using OS' argument... awesome.
OS voted yesterday because he was sure that him voting you would win him the game, seems that you are too, only yesterday you were still unsure enough to not vote for me in spite of spending all that time wailing about how you were gonna lose when I got back.
Why is your behavior so different now? Because there's a fundamental difference here, you don't require additional information to be sure of whose scum.
You seemed to have missed the part about how I want to get your buddy before you die.
And you voted on the 14th, 6 days to deadline, and upon announcing that I was your target.
Except from what you presented yesterday you were just as sure I was the abductor yesterday. Both times you said that derived that level of suspicion.No. I'm sure that lynching you will win the game because I've determined, by process of elimination (you know, that thing you said would help us win this game
@X1, Dan claimed his char in his post:
also x1, please explain why the hell you think dan is scum, because he's not >_> you read my post about his claim, did you not?
So what's different now?