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Majora's Mask Mafia | Game Over!
- Thread starter DtJ Hilt
- Start date
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
My internet didn't crap out, I was in an area where I didn't have access to wireless and frankly I had far more important concerns then mafia so I didn't seek out a way to get internet.
Don't worry, I don't think I'm gonna have to disappear again any time soon, but if it happens I doubt I'll lose my phone again, so at the very least, I'll be able to drop in and vote.
But now is not the time to be lazy.
I'm rereading basically this entire game for the 3rd time so far, both of you, make cases on each other. OS make a case as to why you're mafia as well.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.
Don't worry, I don't think I'm gonna have to disappear again any time soon, but if it happens I doubt I'll lose my phone again, so at the very least, I'll be able to drop in and vote.
But now is not the time to be lazy.
I'm rereading basically this entire game for the 3rd time so far, both of you, make cases on each other. OS make a case as to why you're mafia as well.
That's just it, the vast majority of the game I've been paying very careful attention to you. The only place I didn't really read heavily was between bedevere's claim and the current set of posts, and there are particular tells that you do as mafia, tells you haven't made.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
lol
FF did it, then? I don't know why you're being ambiguous about all this, especially when you've already claimed mafia (and when you're that desperate, I don't think "k, this happened somehow and so did this, so yeah believe me because only mafia would be dumb enough to claim mafia" is gonna cut it).
And once again you've ignored the entire rest of my post, making everything you said completely irrelevant. Excellent.
Will be getting on that case sometime tonight, sir.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Thank you sir Bed, Overswarm?
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
gettin' on this
rereadin' naooooo
rereadin' naooooo
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
[collapse=woop]D1
OVERALL, OS was pretty loud D1, but didn't really have anything much worthwhile to say. He was arrogant and corrected people's play, had a strong presence even though he wasn't doing much, and only voted (and left his vote there) for someone who already had a vote on them. He was playing safe and defensive, if a bit pronounced.
D2
Again, OS trying to look suspicious of people without actually doing so. And of course, this is hilarious, since he did the exact same thing yesterDay.
Then there's a bunch of posts with OS defending himself against his wagon. I have to say I probably pushed his wagon wrong, since most of it was him saying "this is stupid" and thus no one wanted to join the wagon and risk him flipping town and them looking bad. But having my guilty lynched without me having to claim would have been awesome and would leave as few connections between me and my investigation on OS as possible. This isn't really part of the case or anything, just me acknowledging that the wagon happened and its place in the history of this game.
ok
OS continues to play the nonexistent game with such hits as:
also lulzy that this is the second time he's directed PRs in the game, the first time being yesterDay with the vig. Granted, I directed the vig yesterDay too, but directing PRs too often seems like an attempt to appear contributing that scum loves. Didn't like it back then, don't like it now.
OVERALL, aside from defending himself against his wagon, OS was not very present D2. He continued to avoid making stances, especially stances he didn't already make (or come close to making), and was a lot less "confident" as well. He has fence-sat multiple times and has been attempting to blend in with the opinions of the town since D1, and it hasn't stopped here.
D3
Wonderful.
Then he made a giant post towards FF, which was the only useful thing he did D3. IMO he did this both to look useful at the beginning of the Day so he could sit back and do nothing for the rest of the Day and not get questioned on it, and so that if people agreed with him, he could lead the lynch and not look too bad since he appeared to have put a lot of effort into it.
LOL
"man, there's no way this guy's the abductor, everything he's done has been so pro-mafia it's unbelievable!"
sure.
OVERALL, OS has avoided taking stances at all D3 except when nearing the deadline, and has actively attempted to avoid being noticed by contributing with things that aren't actual contributions (mostly questions and then not following up on those questions). He had never been confident about anything at all D3 (he even had doubt when talking about his abductor stances on Vocal and FF), and has attempted to have other people do his scumhunting for him. And he said something that scum would have no real motivation of doing when everyone was on the hunt for the abductor.
D4
I'd like to point out that from now on, OS is aware that I both have a guilty on him and think that he's mafia. If he wanted to make plans to claim mafia in lylo, all posts after my claim cannot be trusted, since he could easily do things that make him look like mafia just so he can fakeclaim it as abductor and not get lynched.
OVERALL, OS both waited till the last person made a stance before making his own stance, and tried to scare the town out of no lynching, which neither town nor mafia would have incentive to do if my statistics for no lynching were correct. I can't see anyone but the abductor doing both of these things together. Another thing to notice: before claiming OS was confident I was abductor and I was reminded of his D1 play. After I claimed, he became very sketchy and unsure of who was what, aside from the fact that he didn't want no lynch. I think he naturally did this when he realized the game was just at hand and he was confident he could pull off the win, and when it seemed like that win was pulling away, he tried everything within reason to get it back.
D5
D5 is my favourite, because I can basically just quote every post OS made and go "lol, look how wrong he is".
Like, I think I'll just let you read over all my posts for D5, because he hasn't responded to my points from over half of them and I don't feel like pointing out how he's being desperate to get some dirt on me.
OVERALL, toDay, OS was confident that he could ride me getting a result when I supposedly shouldn't have to victory, and when you came in and said he was scum, he claimed mafia because he had no options left (I'd argue that he could have claimed town, but too late). He repeatedly threw out blanket statements like I was "keeping my options open" and I "thought one of you 3 was scum", and when I disproved them, he either went after the one thing he was confident in saying over and over again ("you shouldn't have gotten a result"), or abandoned his line of thought entirely and attacked me from a different angle. He seemed desperate to show to adum that I was abductor, and I saw no reason, mafia or town, why he would tempt me into voting adum. At that point, unless adum was abductor (and as OS believed he wasn't, I had no reason to vote adum because I knew he wouldn't either), it HAD to be either me or OS, and the fact that he wanted me to vote someone that I didn't need to shows he's the abductor trying to go for an easy win, through metaing and outguessing the mod and using that as a case, trying to trick me into voting adum, and claiming mafia.[/collapse]
tl;dr
Read it. Overswarm is the abductor.
And just in case I accidentally voted for someone else in there or that "vote: os" isn't valid...
Unvote
Vote: Overswarm
let's do it
Wagoning X1 for no claimed reason. He effectively did the same thing I did D2 to him (which he freaked out about), yet without even saying he had something as simple as a gut read (or what it really was, a guilty, and OS couldn't have had that since it was D1/he's mafia). Trying to blend in with the opinion of other townies (or mafiats), and by not giving a reason, people are more likely to overlook his stance on X1 than he would if he gave a reason and people disagreed with it.
His explanation, which is pretty weird (and which he wouldn't have said if someone hadn't asked him). Nowhere in this post does he actually say why he thinks X1 is scum, though; in fact, he specifically says it from the point of view of someone who most likely knows he's town. Which I guess might make OS seem more likely to be scum, but an indy would think to say something like this too. Before anyone says anything, this was not the same reasoing I gave for the Roxy wagon; Roxy was being completely useless and even admitted to playing poorly on purpose. There's a difference between trying to scumhunt and not doing a good job of it and not trying to scumhunt at all.
OS flipping after Vocal puts some pressure on him. He gets incredibly defensive (abductor doesn't want people thinking they're scum) and effectively said "Vocal, you make terrible conclusions and are WIFOMing it up". Which, IMO is not too far off from what he said of X1; that Vocal was doing things in the wrong way and was being a distraction. It could have been that he saw Vocal as noobtown and thus didn't go after him, or that he wanted to stick to the wagon that had actual votes on it. I'm leaning on the latter, since OS voted Vocal later in D3 and he never said anything about his read changing on him.
lol hypocrite. OS hadn't said a single thing about X1 since making that flimsy reason, and that was the only stance OS had made all Day.
Look how he beautifully makes a post that LOOKS like a town/scum list...but really isn't. OS is avoiding making a stance on anyone because he wants to make as few connections as possible. He DOES want to appear to be contributing though, so he won't get killed by scum since his flip will give no info (a la BSL), which is why the majority of the posts he made D1 were basically him telling other people how to play mafia. That LOOKS like he's being suspicious of that person and think they're scum...but he only ever voted any of the players he mainly did it to, Swiss and Vocal, once, and one was inconsequential and was removed shortly after, and the other was towards Vocal's actual lynch.
So he FOSes me, says my post is bland, and then votes the person I just started a wagon on LOL. Seems to me like he just wants an early spot on the wagon to avoid looking like a tag-along. Parrots my reasoning for lynching him, too. This might have been the first time he acknowledged Roxy's existence in the game.
OVERALL, OS was pretty loud D1, but didn't really have anything much worthwhile to say. He was arrogant and corrected people's play, had a strong presence even though he wasn't doing much, and only voted (and left his vote there) for someone who already had a vote on them. He was playing safe and defensive, if a bit pronounced.
D2
I'd just like you to keep this quote in mind for D2 posts and future posts.
LOL.
Again, OS trying to look suspicious of people without actually doing so. And of course, this is hilarious, since he did the exact same thing yesterDay.
Everyone other people have noted interest in killing, or in the case of Swiss, has done something that could potentially lead to having other people wanting them dead. Much too safe a stance.
Then there's a bunch of posts with OS defending himself against his wagon. I have to say I probably pushed his wagon wrong, since most of it was him saying "this is stupid" and thus no one wanted to join the wagon and risk him flipping town and them looking bad. But having my guilty lynched without me having to claim would have been awesome and would leave as few connections between me and my investigation on OS as possible. This isn't really part of the case or anything, just me acknowledging that the wagon happened and its place in the history of this game.
waiting for approval before making a stance
ok
This is when OS starts to retract himself from the game. His wagon on him has passed, he feels safe, and thus, he feels he can get away with not contributing so that town won't lynch him, and mafia won't kill him with the wagon still on their minds. He again plays it safe and takes a middling stance that he could EASILY switch around if people start liking X1 as a lynch more. This is the same tell I saw in Rockin in Sonic mafia that helped me make the right decision in voting him. I trust it.
OS continues to play the nonexistent game with such hits as:
Then he sits on the fence for a long time.
Be great if he took a stance.
lulzy that he both voted and directed me in the same post :D
also lulzy that this is the second time he's directed PRs in the game, the first time being yesterDay with the vig. Granted, I directed the vig yesterDay too, but directing PRs too often seems like an attempt to appear contributing that scum loves. Didn't like it back then, don't like it now.
OVERALL, aside from defending himself against his wagon, OS was not very present D2. He continued to avoid making stances, especially stances he didn't already make (or come close to making), and was a lot less "confident" as well. He has fence-sat multiple times and has been attempting to blend in with the opinions of the town since D1, and it hasn't stopped here.
D3
So he starts the Day by directing the PRs.
Wonderful.
Asking for approval before continuing my lynch, most likely. It was pretty clear at the end of D2 that about half the people on my wagon were only voting because any lynch is always more beneficial than no lynch in not-mylo.
Then he made a giant post towards FF, which was the only useful thing he did D3. IMO he did this both to look useful at the beginning of the Day so he could sit back and do nothing for the rest of the Day and not get questioned on it, and so that if people agreed with him, he could lead the lynch and not look too bad since he appeared to have put a lot of effort into it.
Despite this, he never actually said anything about another indy candidate again. IMO, it made him seem both not a target for the lynch, since he seems to have info/know things that might help town, and for the kill, since mafia want to get the abductor too. This also leaves him open to whoever FF thinks is the other abductor choice, and can parrot him if he thinks it's good, or push and try to lynch him if it had poor reasoning. OS is being too opportunistic.
More or less asking for approval. Perhaps the most useful thing he did all Day besides the big FF post.
attempting to push town into trying to lynch people they think are mafia when everyone realized the threat of the abductor
LOL
"man, there's no way this guy's the abductor, everything he's done has been so pro-mafia it's unbelievable!"
sure.
Not the first time he's said it's quiet. I think it's because he himself is quiet in more than one way (both having little presence and posting very little content) that pointing out how other people are more quiet than he is makes himself look like he's contributing, and thus, useful.
OVERALL, OS has avoided taking stances at all D3 except when nearing the deadline, and has actively attempted to avoid being noticed by contributing with things that aren't actual contributions (mostly questions and then not following up on those questions). He had never been confident about anything at all D3 (he even had doubt when talking about his abductor stances on Vocal and FF), and has attempted to have other people do his scumhunting for him. And he said something that scum would have no real motivation of doing when everyone was on the hunt for the abductor.
D4
And now begins the reign of hard-of-hearing, throw things out till they listen to you, silly OS. I already explained how having an SK and no lynching would create the same scenario as going into lylo, and thus, little risk in letting a no lynch happen. He makes completely useless posts like this:
when the answer to those posts is either obvious, or has already been addressed.
Note here that OS only took a stance on me after everyone else said I was scum. He clearly wanted to make sure that he was going after the person that people thought were abductor so he wouldn't have to awkwardly flip from one player to another. I initially thought this was mafiaOS trying to blend in and go with the flow so he looks good when I "flip abductor", and mafia would prefer to end the Day as fast as possible in lylo situations that will continue after a lynch so that town gets little info (which is what I thought he was doing by voting me toDay and effectively attempting to quicklynch me). However, doing this as abductor also makes sense, because seizing any reason he can find to lynch someone and then simply trying to ride that reason out for the victory makes things a lot easier for the abductor.
I'd like to point out that from now on, OS is aware that I both have a guilty on him and think that he's mafia. If he wanted to make plans to claim mafia in lylo, all posts after my claim cannot be trusted, since he could easily do things that make him look like mafia just so he can fakeclaim it as abductor and not get lynched.
What happened to this? He said he knew who abductor was, and then never followed up.
And here's the big scare tactic OS immediately whips out as soon as I claim. IMO, this is him attempting to both put doubt on my claim and scare everyone into lynching toDay, since statistically speaking, he would have a worse chance of surviving lylo than mylo, and the added factor of PRs that could sniff him out as abductor would make him not want it to happen. Where OS says he claimed mafia, I see some type of scum trying to sound like he has a town PR that is afraid of claiming and not sure of their results, which is exactly where OS wants to be. I then have to throw out the WIFOMy question of: if OS seemed to have some sort of info, why didn't the abductor abduct him to stop town from getting that info? Furthermore, why did he not abduct OS (who, according to my guilty, must be mafia by process of elimination), on the off-chance that OS decided to shoot and kill the abductor?
OVERALL, OS both waited till the last person made a stance before making his own stance, and tried to scare the town out of no lynching, which neither town nor mafia would have incentive to do if my statistics for no lynching were correct. I can't see anyone but the abductor doing both of these things together. Another thing to notice: before claiming OS was confident I was abductor and I was reminded of his D1 play. After I claimed, he became very sketchy and unsure of who was what, aside from the fact that he didn't want no lynch. I think he naturally did this when he realized the game was just at hand and he was confident he could pull off the win, and when it seemed like that win was pulling away, he tried everything within reason to get it back.
D5
D5 is my favourite, because I can basically just quote every post OS made and go "lol, look how wrong he is".
Like, I think I'll just let you read over all my posts for D5, because he hasn't responded to my points from over half of them and I don't feel like pointing out how he's being desperate to get some dirt on me.
OVERALL, toDay, OS was confident that he could ride me getting a result when I supposedly shouldn't have to victory, and when you came in and said he was scum, he claimed mafia because he had no options left (I'd argue that he could have claimed town, but too late). He repeatedly threw out blanket statements like I was "keeping my options open" and I "thought one of you 3 was scum", and when I disproved them, he either went after the one thing he was confident in saying over and over again ("you shouldn't have gotten a result"), or abandoned his line of thought entirely and attacked me from a different angle. He seemed desperate to show to adum that I was abductor, and I saw no reason, mafia or town, why he would tempt me into voting adum. At that point, unless adum was abductor (and as OS believed he wasn't, I had no reason to vote adum because I knew he wouldn't either), it HAD to be either me or OS, and the fact that he wanted me to vote someone that I didn't need to shows he's the abductor trying to go for an easy win, through metaing and outguessing the mod and using that as a case, trying to trick me into voting adum, and claiming mafia.[/collapse]
tl;dr
Read it. Overswarm is the abductor.
And just in case I accidentally voted for someone else in there or that "vote: os" isn't valid...
Unvote
Vote: Overswarm
let's do it
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
Please vote someone soon, adum. 
*sleepy sleepy*
*sleepy sleepy*
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
8 hours left until deadline, and I likely won't be on again until deadline has passed.
adummmmmm
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
I'm here, doing last minute rereads. Frankly, a lot of things in your case could go either way.
OS, sooner would be better, I have to go out relatively soon.
OS, sooner would be better, I have to go out relatively soon.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
*taps foot*
Deadline is at 3 OS.
Deadline is at 3 OS.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
monster post, slight synopsis at bottom but you read the whole thing adumb >:[
D1
As per usual with my scum play, I got a wagon started on me early on to put off pressure in the later game.
Sir Bedevere, at this point, has wagoned Roxy and then immediately jumps on the OS wagon with no reasoning other than "os wagon seems fun".
He then asks this:
So frequent abductor talk, yet doesn't ever consider the possibility of the abductor being BP during the late game, something everyone else takes as a necessary precaution.
He's had two baseless wagons now: Roxy and myself.
He later claims cop and says he investigated me on N1.
And that Godfather thing you think clears him as cop?
Bed then switches to YOU, adumbrodeus. This is incredibly scummy behavior for a Cop, for two reasons.
His reasoning isn't even consistent within that Day, let alone the Cop claim reasoning.
You know that doesn't make any sense, adumb.
At the start of the day he says "I LIIIIIIIIIIIVE" and posts a goofy picture.
THen this:
This is before it is mod confirmed that someone who is abducted can't be targetted by any abilities.
And the coup de grace:
After the above quote, sir bed continue to attack you. Not a single negative word about me, who he claims to have gotten a guilty on, and an entire post revolving around attacking someone he claimed to have investigated and gotten a town result on.
Ask yourself this, adumb: What Cop would suspect someone of being scum, name them as GODFATHER prior to investigating, investigate them and get a town result, and then continue to go after them and only them?
It gets even more obvious that Sir Bed is not a cop in any way shape or form as the game goes on.
Sir Bedevere has been grouping the final 4 players in this game from DAY ONE. He picked us out and we just happened to have survived and he happened to have investigated each of us? No way, I don't believe it.
And guess what? When it came down to it, we knew he was the abductor and we all went after him. To us, it was between him and Frozen Flame. We chose Sir Bedevere, but were careful not to hammer.
I specifically posted saying "I'm voting in my next post" so you wouldn't get ninja'd and accidentally hammer in your post.
Then, right at the very end when he's about to be lynched, he claims Cop and claims to have investigated everyone that is left in the game. The odds of that are insanely small.
But wait... something else seems fishy...
On this Day, Sir Bed decides to lynch Vocal, the claimed music box....
on logic based on my claims.
None of this makes any logical sense.
that he later claims to have investigated, each and every one.
He then pushes HARD for a no lynch; I'm the one controlling the NKill and push against it because I wasn't the one who killed Nabe. Maybe a JoaT, but I was taking no chances. Given Sir Bed's activity this game, I assumed he'd have a reason for No Lynching that wasn't in line with the abductor dying.
aaaand
Seriously adumb, read the beginning of D4 and ask yourself:
"Is this a situation where Sir Bedevere needs to pull some wild claim?"
The answer is obviously yes.
Then ask yourself:
"Is this a claim we can verify?"
and the answer is no. All we can do is guess at what a good Cop would do and what is likely, but his results were completely atypical. His defense for this are "Yeah, it's crazy but it happened".
Sir Bed's story:
Participates in the Lynching of Roxy
Investigates me D1 and gets guilty
Pushes a wagon on me
Gets off of said wagon and doesn't pursue it again for the rest of the game and later uses my advice, logic, and statements in his cases on future players
Gets on YOUR wagon
Calls you Godfather
THEN investigates you and gets a TOWN reading
Pushes another wagon on you the next Day despite his town result
Professes profound disappointment to be left with me, you, and frozenflame in the end of the game despite having investigated all of us
Doesn't claim but instead says "we should no lynch", potentially robbing town of all of his investigations (1 in 3 chance)
Gets to L-1, and then claims... but didn't claim the first time people were going after him.
Continues to profess No Lynch
Gets to toDay and pushes for your lynch while you're not there; I don't participate and instead vote for him
And the entire game:
Participates in every lynch, but only after they are safe
Hardly posts at all until D4; he just flies under the radar
Look at it, adumb. I know you think you've got my scum game figured out but you have to realize this game is a bit different from your previous knowledge of my scum play considering this game is a Small game and there's an abductor.
If I were an independent faction and I was down to three people left, one was gone, and one was pushing for the lynch of the person who was gone...
WHY THE HELL WOULDN'T I JUST HAVE VOTED YOU OFF RIGHT THEN?!
What good would it do for me to push for a Sir Bedevere lynch and WAIT for you to come back? It was literally DAYS. We had as much chance of you being modkilled as you coming back, and I still pushed for Sir Bed's lynch because his play has been so godawful.
I then VOTE for him. That's how confident I am in my read. You come back and, lo and behold, don't vote and kill him off.
Well let's see:
OS didn't immediately kill adumbrodeus when he had the chance
Adumbrodeus didn't immediately kill Sir Bedevere when he had the chance
This leaves only Sir Bed. I don't believe his Cop claim.
A good cop in a 4 man lylo would claim immediately, and Sir Bed has to know this. He waited until he needed to claim, and then he claimed. He had nothing to lose at that point and knew there wasn't a cop, so he went for it.
Look at who was abducted.
"DanGR is so obvious town, we should hold hands", Sir Bed says, when no one else is really commenting on DanGR at all. DanGR is then abducted.
**** it, look at Frozen Flame.
Imagine I'm the abductor for ONE minute.
I have the choice between abducting the claimed cop who says he got town result on adumbrodeus, no result on FF (but will tomorrow), and then a scum result on me, Frozen Flame who is deadset on lynching Sir Bedevere, and then you, who has the most meta on me out of everyone on smashboards and would look at my posts more carefully than anyone else.
Frozen Flame would be my worst possible abduction. It would literally do nothing for me whatsoever. My chances of winning would be better if I didn't abduct.
If I'm the abductor, it meant I abducted a player who was dead set on lynching Sir Bed, and then PUSHED FOR A LYNCH ON SIR BED.
I plan, adumbrodeus. I use puppet strings. My plan as abductor would be "abduct adumbrodeus, use FF to lynch Sir Bed or Sir Bed to lynch FF". Not "abduct Frozen Flame, see if I can start a wagon on Sir Bedevere while Sir Bed tries to start a wagon on Adumbrodeus, who is V/LA".
Do you think I'm that bad, adumb? I know that's AtE, but seriously. I'm not that bad.
If I'm the abductor, I've had multiple chances to end the game. Instead, I was careful not to have anyone accidentally hammer and not put anyone in hammer-zone, and then when I had the chance to kill you adum I chose to go after Sir Bed instead. There's absolutely no rhyme or reason in my play if I'm the abductor.
vote Sir Bedevere
His cop claim was a gambit. The situation he presented is ridiculously precise. It reeks of being crafted rather than remembered and you know it.
D1
Note that he wants to hold DanGR's hand; DanGR was the first abducted. I didn't notice this til this read-through.bed said:
As per usual with my scum play, I got a wagon started on me early on to put off pressure in the later game.
Sir Bedevere, at this point, has wagoned Roxy and then immediately jumps on the OS wagon with no reasoning other than "os wagon seems fun".
He then asks this:
You're right in that scum was a part of the wagon. You're wrong on the count that I wasn't counting on it.
Bed is again talking about the abductor, and it's now D2.
So frequent abductor talk, yet doesn't ever consider the possibility of the abductor being BP during the late game, something everyone else takes as a necessary precaution.
He's had two baseless wagons now: Roxy and myself.
He later claims cop and says he investigated me on N1.
Yet he relieves the pressure and even gives me an out.Bed said:
And that Godfather thing you think clears him as cop?
Same post as the above, and he does it on Day TWO. He didn't investigate you at this point. He calls you a godfather before his claimed investigation, all while still claiming Pierre (FrozenFlame) is the abductor.bed said:
Bed then switches to YOU, adumbrodeus. This is incredibly scummy behavior for a Cop, for two reasons.
If you look at Sir Bedevere's post history, he has practically no posts at this point. He joins existing wagons and then leaves when they don't pick up steam.adumb said:
His reasoning isn't even consistent within that Day, let alone the Cop claim reasoning.
Yeah, the cop investigated me on N1, got scum, pushed for my lynch but wanted you, called you godfather on D2, then investigated you on N2, got town, and CONTINUED TO THINK YOU WERE SCUM.sir bed said:
You know that doesn't make any sense, adumb.
At the start of the day he says "I LIIIIIIIIIIIVE" and posts a goofy picture.
THen this:
Again, more NAR talk.
This is before it is mod confirmed that someone who is abducted can't be targetted by any abilities.
And the coup de grace:
What could Sir Bed have been putting off until D3? At this point according to his story, he has investigated myself and then adumbrodeus. Keep in mind on Day 2, after investigating me, he calls off my wagon and moves directly to adumbrodeus and then for seemingly no reason calls you a potential Godfather.sirbed said:
After the above quote, sir bed continue to attack you. Not a single negative word about me, who he claims to have gotten a guilty on, and an entire post revolving around attacking someone he claimed to have investigated and gotten a town result on.
He continues to do so throughout the day.
Ask yourself this, adumb: What Cop would suspect someone of being scum, name them as GODFATHER prior to investigating, investigate them and get a town result, and then continue to go after them and only them?
It gets even more obvious that Sir Bed is not a cop in any way shape or form as the game goes on.
Have you noticed a pattern?I WANT to wait for adum and FF to post something (FF, you haven't responded to my stuff yet :<), but I won't reliably be able to make it home in time tomorrow to do so and hammer, which means if I'm hammering, I'm hammering tonight.
This means that either OS or adum will have to hammer if we want to wait for adum/FF to post, assuming they don't both make it online tonight. As OS said, we shouldn't be quick-lynching like yesterday (although this will be more of an extremely-delayed-but-still-on-time hammer
Will you two (OS/adum) be available to hammer at a time reasonably before 3PM tomorrow?
Sir Bedevere has been grouping the final 4 players in this game from DAY ONE. He picked us out and we just happened to have survived and he happened to have investigated each of us? No way, I don't believe it.
And guess what? When it came down to it, we knew he was the abductor and we all went after him. To us, it was between him and Frozen Flame. We chose Sir Bedevere, but were careful not to hammer.
I specifically posted saying "I'm voting in my next post" so you wouldn't get ninja'd and accidentally hammer in your post.
Then, right at the very end when he's about to be lynched, he claims Cop and claims to have investigated everyone that is left in the game. The odds of that are insanely small.
But wait... something else seems fishy...
Oh, that's right. He was already about to be lynched and refused to claim.
vocal said:
lol indeed.Sir Bed in response said:
On this Day, Sir Bed decides to lynch Vocal, the claimed music box....
on logic based on my claims.
Sir Bed is pushing for another wagon, except this time is using a statement I made as his support after he supposedly got a scum read on me.Sir Bed said:
None of this makes any logical sense.
"ahhhh, why am I left with you three"sir bed at start of day4 said:
that he later claims to have investigated, each and every one.
He then pushes HARD for a no lynch; I'm the one controlling the NKill and push against it because I wasn't the one who killed Nabe. Maybe a JoaT, but I was taking no chances. Given Sir Bed's activity this game, I assumed he'd have a reason for No Lynching that wasn't in line with the abductor dying.
Followed by:
andOS said:
FrozenFlame said:
aaaand
frozenflame said:
Seriously adumb, read the beginning of D4 and ask yourself:
"Is this a situation where Sir Bedevere needs to pull some wild claim?"
The answer is obviously yes.
Then ask yourself:
"Is this a claim we can verify?"
and the answer is no. All we can do is guess at what a good Cop would do and what is likely, but his results were completely atypical. His defense for this are "Yeah, it's crazy but it happened".
Sir Bed's story:
Participates in the Lynching of Roxy
Investigates me D1 and gets guilty
Pushes a wagon on me
Gets off of said wagon and doesn't pursue it again for the rest of the game and later uses my advice, logic, and statements in his cases on future players
Gets on YOUR wagon
Calls you Godfather
THEN investigates you and gets a TOWN reading
Pushes another wagon on you the next Day despite his town result
Professes profound disappointment to be left with me, you, and frozenflame in the end of the game despite having investigated all of us
Doesn't claim but instead says "we should no lynch", potentially robbing town of all of his investigations (1 in 3 chance)
Gets to L-1, and then claims... but didn't claim the first time people were going after him.
Continues to profess No Lynch
Gets to toDay and pushes for your lynch while you're not there; I don't participate and instead vote for him
And the entire game:
Participates in every lynch, but only after they are safe
Hardly posts at all until D4; he just flies under the radar
Look at it, adumb. I know you think you've got my scum game figured out but you have to realize this game is a bit different from your previous knowledge of my scum play considering this game is a Small game and there's an abductor.
If I were an independent faction and I was down to three people left, one was gone, and one was pushing for the lynch of the person who was gone...
WHY THE HELL WOULDN'T I JUST HAVE VOTED YOU OFF RIGHT THEN?!
What good would it do for me to push for a Sir Bedevere lynch and WAIT for you to come back? It was literally DAYS. We had as much chance of you being modkilled as you coming back, and I still pushed for Sir Bed's lynch because his play has been so godawful.
I then VOTE for him. That's how confident I am in my read. You come back and, lo and behold, don't vote and kill him off.
Well let's see:
OS didn't immediately kill adumbrodeus when he had the chance
Adumbrodeus didn't immediately kill Sir Bedevere when he had the chance
This leaves only Sir Bed. I don't believe his Cop claim.
A good cop in a 4 man lylo would claim immediately, and Sir Bed has to know this. He waited until he needed to claim, and then he claimed. He had nothing to lose at that point and knew there wasn't a cop, so he went for it.
Look at who was abducted.
"DanGR is so obvious town, we should hold hands", Sir Bed says, when no one else is really commenting on DanGR at all. DanGR is then abducted.
**** it, look at Frozen Flame.
Imagine I'm the abductor for ONE minute.
I have the choice between abducting the claimed cop who says he got town result on adumbrodeus, no result on FF (but will tomorrow), and then a scum result on me, Frozen Flame who is deadset on lynching Sir Bedevere, and then you, who has the most meta on me out of everyone on smashboards and would look at my posts more carefully than anyone else.
Frozen Flame would be my worst possible abduction. It would literally do nothing for me whatsoever. My chances of winning would be better if I didn't abduct.
If I'm the abductor, it meant I abducted a player who was dead set on lynching Sir Bed, and then PUSHED FOR A LYNCH ON SIR BED.
I plan, adumbrodeus. I use puppet strings. My plan as abductor would be "abduct adumbrodeus, use FF to lynch Sir Bed or Sir Bed to lynch FF". Not "abduct Frozen Flame, see if I can start a wagon on Sir Bedevere while Sir Bed tries to start a wagon on Adumbrodeus, who is V/LA".
Do you think I'm that bad, adumb? I know that's AtE, but seriously. I'm not that bad.
If I'm the abductor, I've had multiple chances to end the game. Instead, I was careful not to have anyone accidentally hammer and not put anyone in hammer-zone, and then when I had the chance to kill you adum I chose to go after Sir Bed instead. There's absolutely no rhyme or reason in my play if I'm the abductor.
vote Sir Bedevere
His cop claim was a gambit. The situation he presented is ridiculously precise. It reeks of being crafted rather than remembered and you know it.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Hold on, forgot about the deadline extension in the rules.
Vote: Deadline extension
Vote: Deadline extension
Overswarm
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I posted early just for you, I didn't even finish.
Even if you ignored the entire case, thinking "What would OS do if he was the abductor and playing to win" and realizing it is the opposite of everything I've done in the past two Day phases should be a pretty solid clear. I cleared you, leaving the abductor tossup between myself and Sir Bedevere, and did so when I could have lynched you yourself, but Sir Bed refused to even potentially clear someone. He kept all his options open, I trapped myself in a corner. I can't manuever in this position, while he left himself a world of wiggle room.
Sir Bed is the abductor. It's an easy lynch, adum. We figured this out yesterday and now he's trying to play you with a fake claim. I think you're caught up on the fact you didn't notice me as mafia, and the fact he called you "godfather" which admittedly makes sense for a cop who investigates you and gets "town" to do if he thinks you're scum.... except he called you godfather BEFORE he investigated you, thus making that claim pretty worthless.
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
vote: deadline extension
was going to post that as soon as I got back (found out I was getting off early)
responding to shiz
was going to post that as soon as I got back (found out I was getting off early)
responding to shiz
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Here's one point that really sticks out to me.
This really sticks out to me.
Bedevere never had a vote on me, like a smart townie in lylo, he withheld his vote for a while which meant that you COULDN'T vote me off.
However, I don't like this particular post at all, because it's dismissing the practicality of withholding your vote in lylo to avoid quickhammers, and using the fact that he didn't do something that would allow a quickhammer as a "case", which at the same time is a subtle encouragement for him to throw his vote on me.
Here's the thing, I'm not sure he would. Sir Bedevere did well in MxC, but I've been rather unimpressed with him in subsequent games.
Tried to be too smart for your own good perhaps, I can see you as the type to wiform it up.
You do bring up some good points as to why it might be a gambit, he never explained why he thought i might be the godfather that early. A number of other things can be explained by simple incompetence, but that sticks out like a sore thumb.
Hmmm, I'm starting to wonder if you're both lying about your claims, GAH I need more time.
Overswarm
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You missed the part where I said "no convincing me to vote for adumbrodeus".
It's not wifom. You were gone for nearly a week. You think Sir Bed wouldn't have hammered? You think I would have gotten rid of the guy who wanted to lynch sir bed yesterday?
You're picking a conclusion and ignoring evidence to the contrary. When Sir Bed does something that bad you can't say "oh, he must just be incompetent" and give him a clear.
Regardless, you know I'm not incompetent. Look at teh Night Actions and the play in the past two days and ask if it helps me.
vote: deadline extension
I IMed Hilt, deadline should be extended.
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
Deadline has been exteded to December 5th at 3:00 PM EST.
Overswarm
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awww, hey look adumb! He got off early!
Turns out he was going to be back before the deadline after all. -_-;;
His claim doesn't make sense, adumb. I voted for him because I'm confident in my read. There was 0 chance of you hammering immediately because you weren't there, but that doesn't even matter. Sir Bed doesn't vote for you. He doesn't convince me to lynch you. He doesn't even make a case.
I went against the flow of the game and I went for the harder target. I play to win, and there's not a single damn reason I'd not have ended the game when I could have earlier.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Also OS, you forgot the "why I'm mafia" case.
Overswarm
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Wait-
Why does this pop up? He claimed to be a cop that had left you as the only possible option for the abductor, and he didn't vote for you. It doesn't make any sense for him NOT to vote. It would make sense in NORMAL lylo, and that's why he didn't vote. It doesn't make sense when he says "I've got confirmed info that adum is scum".
Again, it makes even less sense that I'd vote first as the abductor on a player that is pushing for someone else, and that someone else isn't here to hammer him for me.
It's all completely backwards from a strategy perspective. There's no "wifom" at end game when a single move can make or break the game.
You think I'd expect you to quick hammer when you're not the abductor? I know you're going to re-read the game half a dozen times before killing someone off. You know I know this. This isn't wifom, we've studied each other pretty frequently.
I look forward to Sir Bed's posts. -_-;;
I have to get some work done, then I'm going to be V/LA for at least a day.
Overswarm
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If you're trying to get me to out my scummates, I'm not doing it; that'd be wincon suicide.
I'm not sure how you expect for me to prove I'm mafia. It's kind of difficult to prove past saying "I'm mafia".
If you want a "hint" as to what to read to get a bearing, read D1 and D2 and realize it's all puppet strings and spidewebs, and D3 is panic mode as we realize we have to lynch the abductor. You should be able to see me literally drop the strings. I'm not confirming any names though, because that would result in mafia losing pretty fast.
Overswarm
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adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
No, I want you to point out mafia-slips, if you're mafia I believe you're smarter then that.
I need all the information i can get for my case.
Overswarm
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My own or someone else's? O_o
When are you going to be here on the weekend, adumb?
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Yours.
When I can be on, enough to definitely check in.
When I can be on, enough to definitely check in.
Overswarm
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You realize it will be difficult to post anything without outing someone or clearing someone, right?
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
No, I'm still leaning towards lynching you.
Let me put it this way, if you accidentally clear somebody, at least you can still nightkill them. If I believe you're the abductor and you die today, you've lost the game. Which is worse, giving information that will clear you from being the abductor and could potentially help town in the endgame or dying now and losing automatically?
Let me put it this way, if you accidentally clear somebody, at least you can still nightkill them. If I believe you're the abductor and you die today, you've lost the game. Which is worse, giving information that will clear you from being the abductor and could potentially help town in the endgame or dying now and losing automatically?
Overswarm
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Yes...
Except my faction would lose either way.
You're putting me in a lose/lose situation. I'm not going to sacrifice my wincon so your wincon can be accomplished. I could say "der, player X and Y and Z are alllllllll scum wif me" and you couldn't prove or deny it.
This smells strongly of you already thinking Bed is the abductor and just wanting me to out my scummates. I'll take both factions down before commiting suicide for just my own faction.
I'll continue my case later when I have time.
What's your case on me, adumb? Do you have reasons for why Sir Bed would do the things he's done or why I've done the things I've done? Everything I've done in the past two days has been against the abductor's wincon.
Read my massive wall of text, then re-read those scenarios. Look at Sir Bed's playstyle. I put myself out in the open and he hid in the shadows. I'm super confident as scum because I can get away with it without getting NKilled.
I'll put up more info later.
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
[collapse=beep boop]
Why isn't it possible scum wanted to get rid of all the player's town reads to make it harder for them? That's certainly the first thing that came to mind when I saw the player list for D4.
I STARTED the wagon. I didn't join it. He was being useless and I gave my reasons for it in the same post, and YOU WAGONED HIM WITH ME WITH EVEN LESS REASONING. This is not a point against me, it's a point against you.
And OS.
I got a guilty on you.
Aside from claiming, which I didn't want to do so early in the Day, what other way could I get you lynched beside joining the next available wagon on you? You were playing a game of nulls and when it came to trying to make a case on you, I couldn't find anything concrete enough that I could form a case around. And then Swiss started the wagon and I was happy.
). BP did not enter my mind until FF mentioned it, and this is again a time where you either believe me or you don't, but either way, it isn't a solid point against me.
REMIND YOU OF SOMEONE
D1 you voted X1 after Pierre and Swiss did (never brought it up again after it died) and voted Roxy after not saying anything towards him and with little reason. D2, D3, and D4 you only went after people who were already big suspects to the rest of town.
bloop
I'd argue even more so, just because the entire basis of you voting me toDay has been NAR.
What are you pointing out here exactly?
And wait, by the "post revolving around attacking someone he claimed to have investigated and gotten a town result on", do you mean this?
Note I said adum wasn't abductor because my innocent on him meant it was more likely he was town then scum. This obviously changed once it came down to 3/4 people.
2nd, I'm NOT MAFIA, OS. I can't control the mafia's kill. How the hell did I manage to make the mafia not kill you 3? You can't seriously use "OMG he thinks they're scum and they're alive, he's scum!" and think that that proves anything.
3rd, if I was PLANNING to have Overswarm, Pierre, and adum, THE 3 strongest players in the game (Swiss might contest Pierre only because Pierre was mega-inactive) as the last 4 players in the game, I'm simply insane. There'd be a much greater chance they'd find out I was abductor and lynch me than if I brought any 3 other players with me.
^wifom? yes. unlikely I did that? also yes.
why are you even using null tells in your case
Ha, never happening. Mod must have set this up.
Town agent sends a note to 3 people, all of whom survive to 5 man lylo (AND 3 man lylo), and he never had control of the mafia's kill?
Psh, what are the odds?
Mason recruiter recruits EVERY SINGLE person the mafia killed each Night, and not only that, but was Roleblocked for 2 of the Nights, meaning any actions he did were inconsequential in the first place?
Nope.
I wish I studied law to know what kind of logical fallacy you're using, OS, but it's a big one.
You didn't kill Nabe? Who did, or why didn't you?
Would you like to confirm that you didn't target FF last Night?
Who are you suspecting is a JoaT?
Why didn't you fakeclaim town and make this easier on yourself?
Here, let me fix this part of your post for you:
While I'm at it, let me fix your summary:
Voting adum would be too easy. You said yesterDay you thought either I or FF was abductor, and you couldn't backtrack on that. If you did that, adum would start gunning for you right out of the gate, and you didn't want to take the risk that I'd listen to him. Pushing for me would be a lot safer; it would be unlikely that I'd OMGUS you back (both because I'd look scummy, and because I'd already made it pretty clear I thought you were mafia and not abductor), and because it makes me look really awkward pushing for the lynch of a player who isn't there. Then, when adum would come back, he'd see you "catching" me acting strangely, and with me pushing adum's lynch, he wouldn't have much of a reason to think me town. Me getting a result when I apparently shouldn't have was probably the cherry on top for you.
But you sucked on that cherry too hard. You dropped all your other points and focused on meta, WIFOM and coincidence as your case on me, and when adum came back, he saw desperate OS and a yet un-meta'd version of OS and was leaning abductor on you. So you panicked and claimed mafia, and now you've got the lofty task of proving you're mafia. Which you still haven't done.
I think you think I'm better than I am.
let it grow
You've already proven that you're taking the path that is least suspected by everyone, because you're claiming mafia. Mafia would not do this. Mafia would attempt to claim town and try and argue against the points made. Claiming mafia is terrible in an abductor situation, because after the town lynches the abductor happens, they're dead. Abductor would attempt to claim mafia thinking that only mafia would claim mafia, because it makes town think "huh, only mafia would claim mafia if they're that desperate not to lose, I guess they're not the abductor". It also gives town a false hope, that, if that person is telling the truth and is really mafia, then lynching the abductor and then lynching the claimed mafia gives them 2 scum in a row, which is excellent. Rather than the 1 scum given by lynching the mafiat over the claimed townie. People want their Magical Christmas Land, and they make decisions that are more likely to lead to it. An abductor claiming mafia is precisely on the path to Magical Christmas Land.
Would also like to point out that FF immediately unvoted and believed my claim and seemed to think I was town. Your entire premise of "FF wants me dead, abducting him is terrible" kinda falls flat.
OS.
Stop misconstruing my posts. I've said multiple times that I did NOT have confirmed info that adum was abductor from my investigation. It could be something altered my investigation, it could be I only get guilty on abductor, it could be something else entirely. Thus, this whole thing of "Bed didn't vote adum, clearly he's just keeping his options open" translates more into "grumble grumble, I thought Bed would have voted adum so I could win, but he didn't and now adum thinks I'm scum, grumble grumble".
Why did you claim mafia? What possible reason do you have that would make you want to claim mafia OVER town, when:
A: You've made it abundantly clear that the only actual proof you're willing to give of you being mafia is that you claimed mafia?
B: You've done multiple things that work against your wincon if you were mafia, including claiming mafia?
C: Claiming mafia and being believed has no benefit for you if you aren't lynched, while claiming town and being believed does?
Actually, let's run through what I think was your thought process when claiming mafia. :D
-I am abductor; I must not be lynched.
-Sir Bed has claimed a guilty on me. He could be town. He could be a cop. I have no evidence to say otherwise.
-adum thinks I am abductor. If I don't convince him I'm not, I will be lynched.
-Because Sir Bed has a guilty on me, I must claim to be mafia, or adum will not believe me, since he believes Sir Bed's claim. Claiming mafia is also a strange thing for an abductor to do, and adum might doubt his read on me, which is good.
*later*
-He still doesn't doubt it. I have to convince him that Sir Bed is the abductor. In order to do that, I have to prove he's not the cop, or adum won't believe my claim.
-Sir Bedevere is extremely sexy.
You claimed mafia because you were still thinking about my result on you, and knew that it would look better if you claimed something that would also get a guilty. But then, after adum still didn't believe you, you had to open yourself up and go against my claim, which put you in the situation of "why the hell did he just claim mafia?". You tread on your own feet.
Read back on D5. You were attacking me with meta reasons as to why someone should doubt my claim, not actual, game-related reasons. Thus, when it came time for you to make a claim, you were still believing my claim and claimed based around what results my claim gave.
hurr durr
You were out in the open for D1 only. That's when you wanted to make an early strong, town impression, so that when you slunk into the shadows, you would be seen as town. I've already shown how your activity and usefulness had receded as each Day went by; you were worried you'd become a target, so you made yourself less of one.
Yeah, I hid in the shadows. I did that in MXC. And Sonic. And Villains. All as town. All as PRs.
Your point?
[/collapse]
I collapse things, I have to be town.
As far as I'm concerned, there's no point in even responding to anything else OS says until he either proves his claim of mafia, or explains why he claimed mafia and not town. The other stuff is still important, but he's throwing out the claim in such a way that he's trying to make it seem like he's obviously mafia, and when you're TRYING to make yourself look obviously mafia, you know something's up.
And, because I also feel this question should be answered before anything else, and for ****s and giggles, since this is yet another question I cannot see a single, reasonable answer OS can respond with: why'd you unvote me, OS? :3
You've made a statement, not a point.
Why isn't it possible scum wanted to get rid of all the player's town reads to make it harder for them? That's certainly the first thing that came to mind when I saw the player list for D4.
Is this you saying you got your scumbuddy to wagon you? That can basically only mean Swiss, which means you just claimed your scumteam. Mafia wouldn't do this. You're not mafia if you want to keep on saying your wagon was set up by mafia.
omfg
I STARTED the wagon. I didn't join it. He was being useless and I gave my reasons for it in the same post, and YOU WAGONED HIM WITH ME WITH EVEN LESS REASONING. This is not a point against me, it's a point against you.
And OS.
I got a guilty on you.
Aside from claiming, which I didn't want to do so early in the Day, what other way could I get you lynched beside joining the next available wagon on you? You were playing a game of nulls and when it came to trying to make a case on you, I couldn't find anything concrete enough that I could form a case around. And then Swiss started the wagon and I was happy.
Everyone who's played with an indy. I haven't, at least not one that was standard (Kefka ain't standard
). BP did not enter my mind until FF mentioned it, and this is again a time where you either believe me or you don't, but either way, it isn't a solid point against me.You're taking that stuff WAY too seriously. I did not actually think adum was godfather. Pierre I thought was abductor, yes, but there's almost no way that I could determine that someone is a godfather just from their posts. That makes no sense. They're practically goons with benefits. I'm really weirded out by both you and adum thinking I was being serious when I said that.
HMMMM
REMIND YOU OF SOMEONE
D1 you voted X1 after Pierre and Swiss did (never brought it up again after it died) and voted Roxy after not saying anything towards him and with little reason. D2, D3, and D4 you only went after people who were already big suspects to the rest of town.
bloop
This makes me scum why?
You've talked about NAR just about as much as me OS.
I'd argue even more so, just because the entire basis of you voting me toDay has been NAR.
What are you pointing out here exactly?
I THINK I said that I was going to do a reread and make a case or something, which was what I was putting off. Wasn't puting it off since D1, only since D3. Again, you're just making statements and not actually giving your own interpretations of those statements.
I said this before, but I was pretty sure you were mafia with Swiss by D3. You freaking out about no NK looked suspicious to me, and if abductor had priority over NKs as I expected, Swiss getting abducted was a possible sign. As I also said (or hinted) at the beginning of D4, I knew you were mafia, and there was nothing I could do about that, because the abductor was my priority.
And wait, by the "post revolving around attacking someone he claimed to have investigated and gotten a town result on", do you mean this?
Did you not see that giant speedbump in the middle?
Yeah, totally pushing a scum case.
Note I said adum wasn't abductor because my innocent on him meant it was more likely he was town then scum. This obviously changed once it came down to 3/4 people.
What does that quote prove, exactly? Why does me mentioning your (FF/OS/adum) names prove that I was planning to lead you 3 into lylo?
1st, even if I WAS doing that, I was doing it since D2 (when I said I had town reads on everyone but you 3). Don't exaggerate things, especially things that are wrong.
2nd, I'm NOT MAFIA, OS. I can't control the mafia's kill. How the hell did I manage to make the mafia not kill you 3? You can't seriously use "OMG he thinks they're scum and they're alive, he's scum!" and think that that proves anything.
3rd, if I was PLANNING to have Overswarm, Pierre, and adum, THE 3 strongest players in the game (Swiss might contest Pierre only because Pierre was mega-inactive) as the last 4 players in the game, I'm simply insane. There'd be a much greater chance they'd find out I was abductor and lynch me than if I brought any 3 other players with me.
^wifom? yes. unlikely I did that? also yes.
null tell
why are you even using null tells in your case
Mason recruiter tries to recruit every mafia player in the game, inevitably causing almost all of them to get lynched because of it, while also recruiting the last PR left that they could recruit?
Ha, never happening. Mod must have set this up.
Town agent sends a note to 3 people, all of whom survive to 5 man lylo (AND 3 man lylo), and he never had control of the mafia's kill?
Psh, what are the odds?
Mason recruiter recruits EVERY SINGLE person the mafia killed each Night, and not only that, but was Roleblocked for 2 of the Nights, meaning any actions he did were inconsequential in the first place?
Nope.
I wish I studied law to know what kind of logical fallacy you're using, OS, but it's a big one.
When it comes to meta-related things, I generally trust what people say, regardless of their alignment. They really have no reason to lie, because if they're caught lying, people trust them less and are more likely to be lynched. Scum always wants to be saying things that seem useful but don't actually help with scumhunting, which your post (about Hilt not liking deceptive roles) aligns perfectly with. I had little reason to doubt you.
what is this
You didn't kill Nabe? Who did, or why didn't you?
Would you like to confirm that you didn't target FF last Night?
Who are you suspecting is a JoaT?
Why didn't you fakeclaim town and make this easier on yourself?
You're using coincidence as an argument.
Here, let me fix this part of your post for you:
Completely the same.
While I'm at it, let me fix your summary:
That's logic you use to meta the set-up, not meta players.
WIFOM, and exactly what I expected you to say.
Voting adum would be too easy. You said yesterDay you thought either I or FF was abductor, and you couldn't backtrack on that. If you did that, adum would start gunning for you right out of the gate, and you didn't want to take the risk that I'd listen to him. Pushing for me would be a lot safer; it would be unlikely that I'd OMGUS you back (both because I'd look scummy, and because I'd already made it pretty clear I thought you were mafia and not abductor), and because it makes me look really awkward pushing for the lynch of a player who isn't there. Then, when adum would come back, he'd see you "catching" me acting strangely, and with me pushing adum's lynch, he wouldn't have much of a reason to think me town. Me getting a result when I apparently shouldn't have was probably the cherry on top for you.
But you sucked on that cherry too hard. You dropped all your other points and focused on meta, WIFOM and coincidence as your case on me, and when adum came back, he saw desperate OS and a yet un-meta'd version of OS and was leaning abductor on you. So you panicked and claimed mafia, and now you've got the lofty task of proving you're mafia. Which you still haven't done.
I don't. :/ Never been cop, never got the chance to really play with a cop (Zen died D1 in Villains, Tan claimed in the middle of the Day in Bioware and after I had replaced out, Moriarty was naive in Halo). I saw no benefit in claiming at the start of D4, and I already explained why.
I think you think I'm better than I am.
lovely garden of wifom you have there
let it grow
You've already proven that you're taking the path that is least suspected by everyone, because you're claiming mafia. Mafia would not do this. Mafia would attempt to claim town and try and argue against the points made. Claiming mafia is terrible in an abductor situation, because after the town lynches the abductor happens, they're dead. Abductor would attempt to claim mafia thinking that only mafia would claim mafia, because it makes town think "huh, only mafia would claim mafia if they're that desperate not to lose, I guess they're not the abductor". It also gives town a false hope, that, if that person is telling the truth and is really mafia, then lynching the abductor and then lynching the claimed mafia gives them 2 scum in a row, which is excellent. Rather than the 1 scum given by lynching the mafiat over the claimed townie. People want their Magical Christmas Land, and they make decisions that are more likely to lead to it. An abductor claiming mafia is precisely on the path to Magical Christmas Land.
Would also like to point out that FF immediately unvoted and believed my claim and seemed to think I was town. Your entire premise of "FF wants me dead, abducting him is terrible" kinda falls flat.
And now you're admitting to going for the hard target, LOL. Pointing that out is the exact reason why your claim of "I could have killed adum but didn't, clearly I'm not abductor" doesn't work. Your making things harder for yourself on purpose so that when someone looks at all your actions, they think "if this guy is X, he did a lot of things that X would never do, so I don't think he's X".
Hey.
OS.
Stop misconstruing my posts. I've said multiple times that I did NOT have confirmed info that adum was abductor from my investigation. It could be something altered my investigation, it could be I only get guilty on abductor, it could be something else entirely. Thus, this whole thing of "Bed didn't vote adum, clearly he's just keeping his options open" translates more into "grumble grumble, I thought Bed would have voted adum so I could win, but he didn't and now adum thinks I'm scum, grumble grumble".
Then...
Why did you claim mafia? What possible reason do you have that would make you want to claim mafia OVER town, when:
A: You've made it abundantly clear that the only actual proof you're willing to give of you being mafia is that you claimed mafia?
B: You've done multiple things that work against your wincon if you were mafia, including claiming mafia?
C: Claiming mafia and being believed has no benefit for you if you aren't lynched, while claiming town and being believed does?
Actually, let's run through what I think was your thought process when claiming mafia. :D
-I am abductor; I must not be lynched.
-Sir Bed has claimed a guilty on me. He could be town. He could be a cop. I have no evidence to say otherwise.
-adum thinks I am abductor. If I don't convince him I'm not, I will be lynched.
-Because Sir Bed has a guilty on me, I must claim to be mafia, or adum will not believe me, since he believes Sir Bed's claim. Claiming mafia is also a strange thing for an abductor to do, and adum might doubt his read on me, which is good.
*later*
-He still doesn't doubt it. I have to convince him that Sir Bed is the abductor. In order to do that, I have to prove he's not the cop, or adum won't believe my claim.
-Sir Bedevere is extremely sexy.
You claimed mafia because you were still thinking about my result on you, and knew that it would look better if you claimed something that would also get a guilty. But then, after adum still didn't believe you, you had to open yourself up and go against my claim, which put you in the situation of "why the hell did he just claim mafia?". You tread on your own feet.
Read back on D5. You were attacking me with meta reasons as to why someone should doubt my claim, not actual, game-related reasons. Thus, when it came time for you to make a claim, you were still believing my claim and claimed based around what results my claim gave.
hurr durr
No.
You were out in the open for D1 only. That's when you wanted to make an early strong, town impression, so that when you slunk into the shadows, you would be seen as town. I've already shown how your activity and usefulness had receded as each Day went by; you were worried you'd become a target, so you made yourself less of one.
Yeah, I hid in the shadows. I did that in MXC. And Sonic. And Villains. All as town. All as PRs.
Your point?
[/collapse]
I collapse things, I have to be town.
As far as I'm concerned, there's no point in even responding to anything else OS says until he either proves his claim of mafia, or explains why he claimed mafia and not town. The other stuff is still important, but he's throwing out the claim in such a way that he's trying to make it seem like he's obviously mafia, and when you're TRYING to make yourself look obviously mafia, you know something's up.
And, because I also feel this question should be answered before anything else, and for ****s and giggles, since this is yet another question I cannot see a single, reasonable answer OS can respond with: why'd you unvote me, OS? :3
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Guaranteed loss vs. potential loss, which will you pick?
Cause if I still believe you're the abductor, you're gonna lose no matter what, if you give me too much information when proving you're mafia, just the potential exists.
Lemme give it to you straight, I consider the possibility that both of you are fake-claiming to be legitimate at this point, but fakeclaiming mafia as town means that you're guaranteeing town's loss because next game day is mylo whereas a cop fakeclaim wouldn't guarantee your faction's loss regardless of what the faction was. Sir Bed fakeclaiming means he's probably mafia or the abductor, possibly town (given this game's love of lying townies and how he was about to get lynched which would've ended the game in his disfavor if he were anything but the abductor). You on the other hand, could only be the abductor if you fakeclaimed.
Cause if I still believe you're the abductor, you're gonna lose no matter what, if you give me too much information when proving you're mafia, just the potential exists.
Lemme give it to you straight, I consider the possibility that both of you are fake-claiming to be legitimate at this point, but fakeclaiming mafia as town means that you're guaranteeing town's loss because next game day is mylo whereas a cop fakeclaim wouldn't guarantee your faction's loss regardless of what the faction was. Sir Bed fakeclaiming means he's probably mafia or the abductor, possibly town (given this game's love of lying townies and how he was about to get lynched which would've ended the game in his disfavor if he were anything but the abductor). You on the other hand, could only be the abductor if you fakeclaimed.
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
But you're both in the potential loss category for me, I just think you're more likely to make me actually lose.
Speaking of which, I've come up with an interesting theory that explains why you would wanna kidnap FF, see, while your mafia claim doesn't ring true, I can see definite indications that you were trying to act like your mafia meta, planning to claim mafia in lylo all along perhaps.
Abducting suspected mafia members would then be the logical choice, in case they picked up on your plan or CC'd you when you claimed it in lylo. FF was obviously mafia, so as an abductor planning to claim mafia, you had to abduct him.
Leaving me around till lylo was a bad choice OS, I know you too well.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Wait, what?
Your making a conclusion before looking for evidence.
You're saying "OS = abductor, but he isn't acting like mafia, except he is, so he must have planted those things so he could CLAIM he was mafia"
Except that makes no sense. Occam's razor, adumb. I'm actually mafia. Claiming makes the most sense.
Why would I claim unprovoked?
Let me get this straight:
To pin me as the abductor, you've assumed FF's alignment was mafia and I removed FF so I could claim mafia? That is the most backwards reasoning you could come up with, adumbrodeus.
You're going to lose the game due to your ego, adum. You have come to the conclusion that you "know me so well" that you just come to a conclusion then alter the evidence until it fits your imaginary situation. Yeah, you know me, but not well enough to make up crackpot theories out of the blue. Use the evidence first, THEN how well you konw me.
If I'm the abductor, why is everything I've done been in the opposite of the abductor's interest?
It was a mistake leaving you around until lylo? Really? I believe that now, too. I didn't kill you right away because I knew I could rely on you to defend me during the imaginary push. I didn't kill you afterwards because I was pretty sure you weren't the abductor, and you're good enough to be able to find the real one.... and wouldn't mistake me for the abductor -_-;;
Have you not been paying attention to Sir Bedevere?
He's actively staying out of the conversation because he wants no attention.
I claimed mafia because it's the best play in this situation. I can't win if the abductor wins. There's no reason the abductor would claim mafia when 2/3rds of the remaining players could CC and no mafia have flipped.
Adum, do you really believe I'm a "last man standing" abductor?
I claim without provocation.
The player who knows me best on smashboards is left until lylo.
The player who wanted Sir Bed dead yesterday = abducted
Sir Bed pushes a lynch on you and HARD... I push a lynch on him despite the fact you're V/LA.
Why would I do ANY of these things as abductor?
Try grilling Sir Bed, adum. Watch him crack. Look at his most recent post:
Really? As the abductor, you think I'd be that obtuse, adum? I'd get rid of everyone that could get a read on me personally, because it'd inevitably have to come down to lylo. This would be poor planning on the abductor's part.
and he parrots you. You think he came up with "that can basically only mean Swiss" by himself? Hint: I didn't claim my scum team. I didn't even say I got my scumbuddy to wagon me. I said I got a wagon started on me early in the game, as usual, to put pressure off me for late game. Sir Bed changed what I said to "you're saying you got your scum buddy to wagon you" and then parrots you as to who that could be (wouldn't want to get in a fight with adum now, would we?), and then claims I've claimed my scum team.
None of this is verifiable without me actually claiming my scum team, which I couldn't do because it'd be the fake scenario he made in reality.
So Bed's instinct as Cop when he gets a guilty isn't "make breadcrumbs"... it isn't "start a wagon on OS"... it isn't even "question OS". It's waited until someone else votes and then vote for me, say nothing, then let it die and never return to said wagon.
Really?
Nuff said, another "believe me or don't".Everyone who's played with an indy. I haven't, at least not one that was standard (Kefka ain't standard
You read that, right adumb?Sir Bed said:
I'm going to reread the Godfather exchanges soon... I don't remember who brought it up again. This could be telling as well.
Because I'm mafia. -_-;;
Sir Bed says "I'm a cop" and I criticize him for his anti-town wagoning, then he says "who does this remind you of" and points to me as if it makes us equally bad. It doesn't. He's been playing anti-town and lurking as a cop, I've been playing anti-town and been posting all over the place to control the game as mafia. Indies don't run games, they flow with them.
Again, he says Swiss must be my scummate.
He's using things you're saying to create his own fake history.
Nothing he's saying about his reads have come up until after you gave them to him adumb.
Which sounds more like an abductor to you:
Claims mafia in 3 man lylo without being provoked, votes for the guy who is pushing for someone else in 3 man lylo, doesn't want a No Lynch in 3 man lylo
or
Claims there has to be a No Lynch in a 4 man lylo and that we should let mafia attempt to NKill scum*, attacks the guy who is V/LA in a 3 man lylo, claims cop at the end of his SECOND wagon...**
Which sounds more like an abductor to you?
*If there had been a NKill and an abduction, he would have won. If the abductor is bullet-proof, which is entirely possible, that would have been a guaranteed win.
**Go ahead and look back. Sir Bedevere posted saying he thought he had been hammered.
As a cop, WTF would you do? Say "Oh man I think I'm hammered" and then NOT post your reads? Not even a "I think OS is scum and Adumb is town" read so that when you flipped as Cop people could say "obviously these were his investigations"?
He didn't claim when he was being wagoned earlier in the game. He didn't claim when he thought he was about to be hammered, or when he thought he had been hammered.
He claimed only when about to be hammered in a 4 man lylo where he claims to have investigated everyone.
Not an exaggeration. D2 is early.
I didn't say you made mafia not kill us 3. Read below for more.
Wait, you mean me and two inactives? Pierre was good, yeah... and you called him out as the abductor. He was also completely inactive. FF replaces him and you then change your tune to "oh, it's either adum or FF". You claim "i'm going to investigate FF", then FF is abducted; presumably, so he can't say "...you're wrong". You then switch to adum, and counted on me to follow you. I didn't, and then you switch to me after posting a days worth of "did adum win yet :\" AtE posts.
Bed can claim cop and claim an investigation on someone and then abduct them and be in the clear. His big mistake was claiming he got a result. I can't claim mafia and know the alignments of everyone else unless I'm mafia. There's like a 1 in 2000 chance that there are two mafia factions, but I'll take that risk. If I was an indie though and two players were left and NO mafia had flipped? That's a big damn chance someone could CC me. I wouldn't do that just for the hell of it, that makes no sense. If I was going to fake a claim, I'd wait til I was cornered and then claim something like, oh, say, Cop.
And to top it all off... Bed? You just said "that'd be insane to leave the three best players in the game here!" but someone did it. WTF would I leave adumbrodeus of all people in lylo when each person individually holds the final vote?
tl;dr
"I had found out you were mafia but didn't see any reason not to trust you! :B"
I can't quote most of what sir bed edited in, but:
Why the hell would I do that as the abductor? Answer me that, Bed. what good does it do. Adumbrodeus was inactive for nearly a week. He could have died from a modkill if the mod was on top of giving prods, but I didn't request prods nor did I lynch him with you.
Hear that, adumb? I didn't vote for you because it'd be "too easy". You'd start gunning for me "right out of the gate". WTF does that even mean? Adum would have been lynched, bed. He would have come back to see the game was over.
Read the bold, adumbrodeus. Sir Bedevere knows exactly how bad he looks in this situation and his defense is "ah HA! But that's what you'd WANT us to think".
This isn't a cartoon. This is mafia, and the clearest path to victory is the best. If I was the abductor, I'd have taken out every active and strong player in this game ASAP.
Oy. -_-;;
You can't prove you're mafia without posting a role PM or claiming scummates of some sort, and even then you can't claim it fully wihtout flips.
*rubs temples*
If I'm in a 4 man lylo and someone says they've got a guilty on me and they're correct, I know this doesn't clear them. But I still have to look elsewhere. I'm pretty damn confident that adum isn't the abductor, and I don't think Pierre was active enough to be an abductor, so my read's still on you.
Now put me in the position of an abductor.
It's 4 man lylo. Sir Bed claims to get a guilty on me.
"Uh... I'm town. Easy lynch."
Why wouldn't I just do that?
If there are 4 people in the game, one of them is an indie, and no mafia have flipped, WTF would I not claim town? That would be the easiest win in the world because it turns into "who believes who" and everyone was already voting for you. FF reamed your math related gambit to win on D4; you only survived because of you're fake claim.
This is really funny... here's two quotes from Sir Bed, except inverted in order:
Adum, ask Sir Bedevere some pointed questions. Watch him fall apart.
You know my meta, and you know this game reeks of scum play. You might be off about the number of mafia and when I suddenly had to switch gears, but you know none of my actions make sense as an abductor and, if I was the abductor, I would have won this game already. -_-;;
Sir Bedevere
Smash Lord
So.
You're saying that CLAIMING MAFIA.
Which of course is the VERY FIRST THING MAFIA DO WHEN THEY ARE FORCED TO CLAIM (P.S. LOL NO).
Is better than claiming town, pushing a case on me, and then NOT IMMEDIATELY DYING AFTER THE ABDUCTOR IS LYNCHED?
You're thinking in the short term.
And you know who thinks in the short term in abductor lylo situations?
The abductor.
And now you're just pointing out things that work against you.
You WANTED to claim. You WANTED adum to go "wow, he has to be mafia if he's claiming mafia, bed must be abductor", and have the pressure off you.
In fact, the very fact that you claimed mafia unprovoked proves you can't be mafia. Mafia aren't jumping for joy when they claim. Telling the truth about your role as mafia, like most other circumstances in life, is a lot harder than lying. I saw a person who wanted to be seen as obviously being mafia, and again, if you're extremely happy and open about claiming mafia, then you probably AREN'T mafia.
I'd also argue that it wasn't unprovoked, since you only claimed after adum came in and said he still thought you were abductor, which is similar to an L-1 situation, in which it's an unspoken agreement that you need to claim when you're about to die.
---
I was going to quote everything else you said and respond to it, as I always do.
But then I remembered.
i'll continue to be lazy until you fulfill my request or unless adum wants me to do it anyway :3
i'm getting tired of humouring you os
please hammer soon adum