[Major] "The Power of One" ~ Vid Channel links 1st post + Montage by Dekar

[CAOTIC]

want to play reach on sunday as well...

 

[oldmanondorf_]

HAAAAAAALLLOOO REACH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXasCjUTNpE

 

[CAOTIC]

egoraptor's finest work!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Is Wobbling banned?

 

[Redact]

I hope it is

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I hope it is

I can name several reasons why it shouldn't be

1. You can't ban something because it's "not fun" or "gay". The criteria is too subjective and will quickly lead to a slippery slope. What makes Wobbling so much worse than shine spiking? Or Marth's forward smash gimps?

2. It's not broken. Wobbling doesn't change the Ice Climbers place on the tier list at all, and there is no reason to ban something if it doesn't over-power the character.

3. It is reasonably difficult to pull off against someone who knows what they are doing. The Ice Climbers can be hard countered by 3 different characters at least, and soft countered by many more, who all have tools to seperate them/gimp Nana/avoid grabs.

Removing it would be like taking a slightly annoying, helpless baby and punching it in the face.

-----

Anyway, assuming I come: This'll be my second major tourney after RC, and I feel like I didn't really play against enough of the top players and get advice at RC. So, for Melee, who are the good players that will be there?

 

[CAOTIC]

you got the best of best of vic/nsw/qld attending presumably, you missed out on good melee play at RC because you arrived on the day, if i can recall. there were tons of casual smash being played before the tourney.

hope you can come to this one though! i'll even interview you!

about wobbling: i think victoria's the only region that bans wobbling, so going by that it's probably legal in qld

response to your questions:

1 - yes, you can. we (victoria) already have. fears of leading to a 'slippery slope' = an unfounded fear, since the practise of banning wobbling has occured in tournaments since 2006.

2 - agreed

3 - i'm indifferent to the role of complexity/difficulty in an argument involving the legality of a move.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

you got the best of best of vic/nsw/qld attending presumably, you missed out on good melee play at RC because you arrived on the day, if i can recall. there were tons of casual smash being played before the tourney.

hope you can come to this one though! i'll even interview you!

about wobbling: i think victoria's the only region that bans wobbling, so going by that it's probably legal in qld

Interview me?

Yeah, I arrived on the day. Very close call to missing out on doubles iirc.

This time I'm hoping to arrive a few days in advance and leave a few days later so I don't miss out on anything. I've just got to save up my money (I'm aiming for around $250 minimum, I think that'll cover everything) and convince my parents to let me stay with someone they have never met in a different state

And I'm glad Wobbling probably won't be banned, it's not that I'm an Ice Climber main, I just have strong views when it comes to smash rulesets being competitive xD

 

[CAOTIC]

$10 pichu ditto kletsgo

 

[Grim Tuesday]

$10 pichu ditto kletsgo

Sure thing man.

 

[S.D]

I can name several reasons why it shouldn't be

1. You can't ban something because it's "not fun" or "gay". The criteria is too subjective and will quickly lead to a slippery slope. What makes Wobbling so much worse than shine spiking? Or Marth's forward smash gimps?

2. It's not broken. Wobbling doesn't change the Ice Climbers place on the tier list at all, and there is no reason to ban something if it doesn't over-power the character.

3. It is reasonably difficult to pull off against someone who knows what they are doing. The Ice Climbers can be hard countered by 3 different characters at least, and soft countered by many more, who all have tools to seperate them/gimp Nana/avoid grabs.

Removing it would be like taking a slightly annoying, helpless baby and punching it in the face.

-----

Anyway, assuming I come: This'll be my second major tourney after RC, and I feel like I didn't really play against enough of the top players and get advice at RC. So, for Melee, who are the good players that will be there?

There was some intense debate about this before RC (not sure why since I was close to the only player who would use ICs anyway) but I suppose it will be at Vyse's discretion. I'm pretty much in agreeance with you though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

(not sure why since I was close to the only player who would use ICs anyway)

Speaking off that, I'd love if you could critique my climbers :D

 

[Vyse]

I'll make a decision soon. Probably poll everyone.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'll make a decision soon. Probably poll everyone.

It's your decision, but to add onto what I said above: No one will say "Wobbling is legal so I'm not coming". If you end up banning it, you might as well ban counter-picking Sheik against Bowser.

 

[Vyse]

I'm well aware of the slippery slope argument ;0
It's the same thing with stages really.

And I follow your threads. lol.

 

[Dekar289]

no need for a poll vyse, just dig up the old debate thread and read the arguments for and against, and make a decision

 

[Redact]

you seem to not udnerstand how wobbling is different to the other like getting gimped.

Smash is all about the diversity.Ddon't you love it how when you get combod, all the factors affect how things go? How you DI, how you Tech (or don't tech) and how you try to recover comes into play?

Say you get grabbed by marth, you have plenty of options to get out of the CG, and even if he CG's you to 70%, you can DI correctly and not get tippered/combod after.

Say you get shined by fox, you wont die instantly unless you got shined whilst you were already off stage, and that means he read/countered your recovery. You have the oppurtunity to DI it still, do things like wall tech it, or go for a crazy recovery. Ontop of that, you did bad to get off the stage in the first place, and let him have the luxury of having shine spike as an option.

Wobbling contradicts every single thing in those. Wobbling can come from the most miniscule mistake (missing an L-cancel on 0%, missing a tiny bit of spacing) and then you're dead. There's no DI, no teching and no crazy recovery, you get wobbled until 200% and then you die. It removes all player participation once you get grabbed, it becomes Ice climbers vs execution, not player vs player.

Wobbling won't make you a god, but it will make you place A lot better than you should, I don't expect to see players like Cao or Kas lose to some random that learned to wobble, but I can see players placing that don't even understand the basics of melee yet can wobble.

We can easily ban and enforce wobbling, the fact that you compare it other moves or counter-picking is silly. Wobbling being banned is standard in melbourne, and is 50/50 in america.

 

[Dekar289]

where you at!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Wall of Text

Right, because Wobbling is entirely with out fault and is unavoidable.

You mentioned shine spiking, and how they deserved to be shine spiked because they made several mistakes (getting knocked off-stage and failing to recover, most prominently).

Wobbling requires that both Ice Climbers are synched, the opponent is at a percentage where they can't escape pre-wobble and that Nana is even still alive.

IF Wobbling does end up being banned, I'd appreciate it if you banned the infinite chain-grabs in Brawl as well.

I'm going to call Budget Player Cadet over to this thread and see if he can convince everyone.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Basically what Grim has been saying. Why would the tactic warrant a ban? If this is banworthy, then what about sheik's CGs that, as far as I have heard, completely wreck most of low tier to the extent that they are completely unviable? What makes this banworthy, but not that? Why ban this in the first place? How easy is it for ICs to get the grab if you play (like you should) campy against them? Sure, it's a OHKO. But you have many options, the strongest of which is especially legit in a game with more shieldstun where ICs still have ****ty range and Nana still has ****ty AI-don't get grabbed. Didn't ban 'em in brawl, why ban 'em here?

Also, seriously grim, there has GOT to be someone better to call than a theorycrafter who knows very, very little about melee.

 

[Redact]

Basically what Grim has been saying. Why would the tactic warrant a ban? If this is banworthy, then what about sheik's CGs that, as far as I have heard, completely wreck most of low tier to the extent that they are completely unviable? What makes this banworthy, but not that? Why ban this in the first place? How easy is it for ICs to get the grab if you play (like you should) campy against them? Sure, it's a OHKO. But you have many options, the strongest of which is especially legit in a game with more shieldstun where ICs still have ****ty range and Nana still has ****ty AI-don't get grabbed. Didn't ban 'em in brawl, why ban 'em here?

Also, seriously grim, there has GOT to be someone better to call than a theorycrafter who knows very, very little about melee.

sheiks cg doesn't work in pal sorry

 

[Nova]

Lol @ that.

Anyway: If it was banned, Grim, it'd have no effect on a campier, slower game that thrives on infinites.
That's like saying Melee and Brawl have the same play style.
Melee has 1 attack that does, technically, which is extremely easy to pull off.
Brawl has about 50.

I agree that you can't compare shine spikes and the like to wobbling, they're totally different.
I don't really have an opinion on wobbling though.
It's stupid and belongs in Brawl.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Oh? Good to know. Then how about the NTSC regions-why didn't they ban it?

Actually, let's start from the top. Grim asked me to help, so I'll do what I can, and if you know me, you'll know I have a very strong tack against banning... well, anything. So what's the actual argument for banning Wobbling? Why would you ban it in the first place?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The point still stands, it shouldn't be banned and banning it is just scrubby, quite frankly.

I don't even really Wobble, by the way, so I'm not arguing for this because I want an advantage, I'm arguing for it because I am a competitive player and I want to play our game COMPETITIVELY.

 

[CAOTIC]

yawn, this thread just turned into another debate thread. vyse, be a TO nazi like me and make your own call <3

 

[Shaya]

Australia is its own competitive environment and scene.
We do have minor connections to others, but the gap of skill is large and noticeable.

Because of this, our "rules" are more like what some of us prefer, what makes more people happy. The amount of people that find banning it distasteful are a very very small minority, and they will still attend tournaments because there is a pretty controlled 'supply' here.

It comes down to "deal with it". Wobbling not being banned would have the same conclusion as well.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

yawn, this thread just turned into another debate thread. vyse, be a TO nazi like me and make your own call <3

Somehow not surprising.

Australia is its own competitive environment and scene.
We do have minor connections to others, but the gap of skill is large and noticeable.

Because of this, our "rules" are more like what some of us prefer, what makes more people happy. The amount of people that find banning it distasteful are a very very small minority, and they will still attend tournaments because there is a pretty controlled 'supply' here.

It comes down to "deal with it". Wobbling not being banned would have the same conclusion as well.

I'll deal with it, I guess.

Spoiler

But you haven't heard the last of Grim.

 

[Testikills]

 

[Corpsecreate]

lol love that vid.

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

if you wobble I'll wipe my *** with your controller k?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

if you wobble I'll wipe my *** with your controller k?

Sure thing, but I thought you didn't want me to Wobble?

Spoiler

<3

Seriously though,:

I don't even really Wobble, by the way, so I'm not arguing for this because I want an advantage, I'm arguing for it because I am a competitive player and I want to play our game COMPETITIVELY.

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

it was a statement for everyone c: guarantee you wont make it out of pools xD

 

[Grim Tuesday]

it was a statement for everyone c: guarantee you wont make it out of pools xD

We'll see about that

 

[luke_atyeo]

this is very hypocritical of me sure, but argueing for the sake of argueing is pointless.

grim, you live in sa, they have a very weak scene there, my point?

usually with these kind of aruguements, there are 1 or 2 people who pick the unfavorable side, and they go up against everyone else in their stupid arguement that never goes anywhere anyway.
now I'm not saying questioning and arguing is bad, since it has led to alot of good things.


the point here I'm making is that the 1 or 2 people who are on the unfavorable side are nearly always people who dont play alot/ dont play many if any really good players/live in an area with a weak scene/ are stupid/ etc

basically the point I'm making is that these people theorycraft because they lack real experiance, and try to argue that because scenario A is possible, scenario A is going to happen.

basically their arguement boils down to: an arguement born out of theorycrafting is more correct then an arguement born out of experiance.

just like in rl, leave these things to the experianced people who actually know what they are talking about.


also posting a picture of a swastika to prove a point isnt very smart.
posting the same picture as a joke is even worse and shows immaturaty and stupidity that strengthen my arguement that your an idiot.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That might be the case if I wasn't objectively right.

 

[luke_atyeo]

claiming that you are correct in an arguement that cannot really be proven beyond all shadow of a doubt isnt going to help your case either

 

[Grim Tuesday]

claiming that you are correct in an arguement that cannot really be proven beyond all shadow of a doubt isnt going to help your case either

Except it can be proven and I am 100% correct.

 

[luke_atyeo]

that guy seems to have a good idea of what he's talking about, but just because he says something doesnt instantly make it true and 100% correct. (I could probably go find a statement just as convincing as that from the other side of the arguement.)

you can throw all this theory at me all you like, I dont care because I dont play melee and thus have no opinion on all this, I am merely saying that you are being an idiot by claiming you know better then more experianced people, and also because you think your arguements here are going to achieve anything

you could say the same of me, since whatever I write here you will dismiss, and thats cool because I'm sitting at work bored and this is somewhat entertaining.

point is, you wanna feel strongly about competativity, cool

I feel strongly that theorycrafting is full of ****, and people jump on that bandwagon because they like to think and prove to others that they are smarter then they really are.

 

[CAOTIC]

luke, i'm hanging out with you when in in ACT

 

[Grim Tuesday]

that guy seems to have a good idea of what he's talking about, but just because he says something doesnt instantly make it true and 100% correct.

Just because everyone in the world says that 1+1=2, doesn't mean it is instantly true and 100% correct. But saying 1+1=2 sure makes a whole lot more sense than 1+1=3. Just as David Sirlin's arguments make much more sense than "It's gay so we should ban it".

(I could probably go find a statement just as convincing as that from the other side of the arguement.)

If you do, please show me. Until then I'll keep thinking that I am right.

you can throw all this theory at me all you like, I dont care because I dont play melee and thus have no opinion on all this, I am merely saying that you are being an idiot by claiming you know better then more experianced people, and also because you think your arguements here are going to achieve anything

Being good at the game doesn't mean you'll be at crafting a game ruleset. In fact, I've studied game design for 5 years at least now, and Sirlin has been a developer for much longer than that and worked on several competitive games like Street Figher, Puzzle Fighter and two of his own table-top games. So, I agree, leave it to the experienced people.

I feel strongly that theorycrafting is full of ****, and people jump on that bandwagon because they like to think and prove to others that they are smarter then they really are.

What is there to theory-craft? There is NO argument.