[Major] "The Power of One" ~ Vid Channel links 1st post + Montage by Dekar

[Nova]

you can throw all this theory at me all you like, I dont care because I dont play melee and thus have no opinion on all this, I am merely saying that you are being an idiot by claiming you know better then more experianced people, and also because you think your arguements here are going to achieve anything

I've pretty much told this to Grim & other members who argue for certain stages to be unbanned/rules changed for blah blah reasons; even called them all terrible players who have no experience lol, they just don't listen + I'm not patient enough to argue about smash.

Grim I highly doubt anyone from SA (who said they'll go) will make it out in Melee pools at this, also.

And as if you don't play Melee Luke, your Luigi is broken.

 

[luke_atyeo]

lol cao, maybe if you replyed to your facebook messages we could hang out.

anyways grim, your whole 1+1=2 analogy is sound sure, but completely off topic and doesnt relate to this at all.
this IS an arguement, where people are basically argueing over the correct perception of what should or shouldnt be banned (what is broken and what isnt)

likewise, you have compared your fine well reasoned arguements (no one is denying that they arnt at least well thought out) to the other sides arguements, stating that all they have is 'its gay so we should ban it'

your flaw, and why no one will listern to you, is because you have the standard small child arguement mentlity where you completely dismiss counter arguements as saying they are bad, or stupid, or dont exsist at all (a common example for this would be ANY religion v non relion arguement in the history of the internet where one side says something like "I've come up with all these good arguements and you guys hanvt given me anything to counter them or disprove them at all" when in fact the other side has been doing just that - of course lets not get into this any further because those are the stupidist arguements ever)


being good at the game doesnt mean you'll be good at coming up with a ruleset, yes we can agree on that, but when the majority of exprianced players (see I use experianced as opposed to good) agree on something, its at the very least a good indication of something.


as for you being exprianced, your not.
studyed game design for 5 years? no, you havnt, you've been playing games for 5 years and paying attention to the kinds of designs in the games, maybe reading up about them online, but you havnt been studying for 5 years ( I myself could make that same claim but instead of 5 years try 15 years)
you dont go to a game design institution or college.

you are 14 years old (getting my stalk on)
you are most likely in that age period where you think you know everything about the world, and when you get older you'll realize that you actually know very little about the world, just like everyone else (or you'll become a conceited idiot, but lets stat optimistic here shall we?)
being that you have that mentatily, this arguement is pointless because you wont listern to a thing I have to say, but I'm having fun here and you'll probably be learning something from this sooner or later, so feel free to keep this up.


as for theorycrafting, thats exactly what your doing, or do you mean to tell me you've been using wobbling in top level tourneys against top level players for a while now?
as for the arguement, there is an arguement, one side is saying wobbling is broken and should be banned, the other side disagrees with that.
if you cant even see that far, why should anyone listern to what you have to say?

if you want to argue well, you have to give thought and consideration to the smart things the opposition brings up, which is usally alot, and adress them instead of ignoring them and hoping they go away

if you actually care about what I'm saying at all and would like to understand it better, try your hand out at being the 3rd speaker in a standard 3 on 3 debate.



I know nova, I know it very well, I see that **** all the time and I feel for you.
maybe me and red dead ted should come visit again sometime.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

likewise, you have compared your fine well reasoned arguements (no one is denying that they arnt at least well thought out) to the other sides arguements, stating that all they have is 'its gay so we should ban it'

What else do you have, other than "it's gay"?

your flaw, and why no one will listern to you, is because you have the standard small child arguement mentlity where you completely dismiss counter arguements as saying they are bad, or stupid, or dont exsist at all (a common example for this would be ANY religion v non relion arguement in the history of the internet where one side says something like "I've come up with all these good arguements and you guys hanvt given me anything to counter them or disprove them at all" when in fact the other side has been doing just that - of course lets not get into this any further because those are the stupidist arguements ever)

Again, what arguments have I dismissed?

being good at the game doesnt mean you'll be good at coming up with a ruleset, yes we can agree on that, but when the majority of exprianced players (see I use experianced as opposed to good) agree on something, its at the very least a good indication of something.

as for you being exprianced, your not.
studyed game design for 5 years? no, you havnt, you've been playing games for 5 years and paying attention to the kinds of designs in the games, maybe reading up about them online, but you havnt been studying for 5 years ( I myself could make that same claim but instead of 5 years try 15 years)
you dont go to a game design institution or college.

You shouldn't make assumptions. I wasn't saying that I am experience in game design from having played games, I was saying that I literally know how to design games.

I've spent the last 5 years doing it, reading books about it, and participating in online discussions about it. Several of my friends are also experienced in indie-game design and I actually did quite a lot of it in IT earlier this year.

you are 14 years old (getting my stalk on)
you are most likely in that age period where you think you know everything about the world, and when you get older you'll realize that you actually know very little about the world, just like everyone else (or you'll become a conceited idiot, but lets stat optimistic here shall we?)
being that you have that mentatily, this arguement is pointless because you wont listern to a thing I have to say, but I'm having fun here and you'll probably be learning something from this sooner or later, so feel free to keep this up.

Where is all this coming from? I again ask: Which arguments have I dismissed? What have I said that makes me seem like a know-it-all?

as for theorycrafting, thats exactly what your doing, or do you mean to tell me you've been using wobbling in top level tourneys against top level players for a while now?
as for the arguement, there is an arguement, one side is saying wobbling is broken and should be banned, the other side disagrees with that.
if you cant even see that far, why should anyone listern to what you have to say?

I don't need to experience things first hand to not be "theory-crafting". I'm using evidence based on tournament results that Wobbling is not broken. What is this evidence you ask? No one has got anywhere just by Wobbling. No one.

if you want to argue well, you have to give thought and consideration to the smart things the opposition brings up, which is usally alot, and adress them instead of ignoring them and hoping they go away

What.
Have.
I.
Been.
Ignoring?

if you actually care about what I'm saying at all and would like to understand it better, try your hand out at being the 3rd speaker in a standard 3 on 3 debate.

I'm on my school's debating team >_>

And I used to be in the Debate Hall on smash boards before I went in-active there.

 

[Sieg]

Video games.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Video games.

It wasn't serious business until Luke started trolling me xD

I'm biting though, because I'm getting enjoyment out of it to.

 

[xXArrowXx]

talking about videogames

 

[luke_atyeo]

I do my fair share of trolling, but I'm not trolling you right now, do you even know what trolling is?

I'm legitimently argueing and trying to help you here.

I was on my schools debating team and recognized by the canberra debating leagues panel of judges as being the best 3rd speaker they'd seen in a very long time (and that was out of about 15 schools if I remember correctly)

as for my assumption, I appologize, however you havnt ever formally studyed it have you?

as for theorycrafting, yes you are, you have no experiance in this yourself, and thus you theorized that wobbling isnt broken because no-one has ever placed with it (I'd like to see some evidence of this claim btw or I'm going to dismiss it as not being true)

What else do you have, other than "it's gay"?

I dont have a side in this arguement because I dont play melee (well I dabble, but I've never played against an ic's player competativly) did you miss that part?

as for points your ignoring, sure there hasnt been a whole lot here since everyone is sick to death of this old arguement (so if you can be bothered to look up sirlins stuff, you can be bothered to look those old threads up)

but in particular here, was caos point that is wont lead to a slippery slope, and redacts counter arguements (were you again compared wobbling to shine spiking, and also said that the climbers have to be synched, I myself can counter that by saying that they climbers are nearly always close enough that they are either synched, or can synch in about 1 second if given the chance.
that chance is easily given if you get grabbed, they just wait half a second to a second for the other climber to catch up and then away they go)

you then tryed to dismiss redacts arguements by comparing melee to brawl (completely off topic) and then by calling up backup, which turned out to be a guy who made a false point about shiek cg's and then admitted he knew next to nothing about the game.
so you still havnt properly adressed both redacts and cao's arguements

as well as my own which is that you are only 14 years old, and your balls havnt even dropped yet.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I do my fair share of trolling, but I'm not trolling you right now, do you even know what trolling is?

I'm legitimently argueing and trying to help you here.

It's difficult to see if you are serious when you troll so often, sorry. xD

I was on my schools debating team and recognized by the canberra debating leagues panel of judges as being the best 3rd speaker they'd seen in a very long time (and that was out of about 15 schools if I remember correctly)

...
Congratulations?

as for my assumption, I appologize, however you havnt ever formally studyed it have you?

No, I haven't. Like I mentioned before though, David Sirlin (the person who I linked to that shares the same views on banning as me) IS a professional game developer and is there-fore, by your own logic, a much better source of information than the smashers here.

as for theorycrafting, yes you are, you have no experiance in this yourself, and thus you theorized that wobbling isnt broken because no-one has ever placed with it (I'd like to see some evidence of this claim btw or I'm going to dismiss it as not being true)

With that definition of theory-crafting, you could say that even my personal experience is "theory-crafting" because I'd still be theorizing that Wobbling isn't broken because I haven't placed with it.

And for proof that no one has placed with Wobbling:
There is no evidence in the tournament results of any notable tournament that a player has gotten further than they would have normally, with the aid of Wobbling. If I had to provide evidence for that, I'd be having to source every major tournament ever.

It'd be great if you could find evidence of someone placing well just because of Wobbling, as it is much easier to find and link proof for that than from my end.

I dont have a side in this arguement because I dont play melee (well I dabble, but I've never played against an ic's player competativly) did you miss that part?

I was using "you" collectively. Referring to the pro-ban side.

as for points your ignoring, sure there hasnt been a whole lot here since everyone is sick to death of this old arguement (so if you can be bothered to look up sirlins stuff, you can be bothered to look those old threads up)

I have Sirlin's site in my favourites :D. I would link to other arguments... But there "aren't" any other arguments.

but in particular here, was caos point that is wont lead to a slippery slope, and redacts counter arguements (were you again compared wobbling to shine spiking, and also said that the climbers have to be synched, I myself can counter that by saying that they climbers are nearly always close enough that they are either synched, or can synch in about 1 second if given the chance.
that chance is easily given if you get grabbed, they just wait half a second to a second for the other climber to catch up and then away they go)

Addressing Cao's point: I didn't notice that response because he edited it in AFTER I replied to his post, not because I am ignoring it.

His 1st point is legitimate, yet it isn't actually a reason for banning it, it just takes a way a reason to keep it legal. He agreed with me that it isn't over-powered also.

The Ice Climbers are NOT always nearly close enough to be either synched/almost synched. How can you accuse me of theory-crafting and say that? All of the viable characters have tools to avoid getting grabbed, separate the Ice Climbers and gimp Nana, and they WILL use them. If the Ice Climbers could remain synched like you are suggesting, they'd be way past broken even without Wobbling.

you then tryed to dismiss redacts arguements by comparing melee to brawl (completely off topic) and then by calling up backup, which turned out to be a guy who made a false point about shiek cg's and then admitted he knew next to nothing about the game.
so you still havnt properly adressed both redacts and cao's arguements

as well as my own which is that you are only 14 years old, and your balls havnt even dropped yet.

I properly addressed Redact's arguments earlier and have now addressed Cao's.
In a case like this, comparing Melee to Brawl is perfectly legitimate as it is a criteria for banning (Not fun) that applies to both games regardless of their differing physics/etc...

Knowledge of Sheik's CG has nothing to do with game theory. He is a very intelligent poster when it comes to Brawl, so I hoped he would be able to better explain than me why Wobbling shouldn't be banned.

Age doesn't mean anything in an argument like this, so get off your high horse.

 

[Corpsecreate]

Jesse: Prepare for trouble!
James: Make it double!
Jesse: To protect the world from devastation!
James: To unite all peoples within our nation!
Jesse: To denounce the evils of truth and love!
James: To extend our reach to the stars above!
Jesse: Jesse!
James: James!
Jesse: Team Rocket blast off at the speed of light!
James: Surrender now or prepare to fight!
Meowth: Meowth, that's right!

 

[xXArrowXx]

wobbuffet: wobbuffet

 

[Vlade]

if you actually care about what I'm saying at all and would like to understand it better, try your hand out at being the 3rd speaker in a standard 3 on 3 debate.

That **** is TOUGH

 

[tedeth]

Luuuuuuuuuuuuuke don't brag about your small life achievements that mean nothing to anyone.

You were a speaker on a debate team in Canberra. CANBERRA. Hafl the ****ing population are ********.

Anyway you do better and make stronger arguments when you are just like "You're a dumb ****. Get *****."

 

[TakFR]

HEY GUYS HOW ABOUT WE BAN MUSIC IN GAME yeah?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I heavily support the banning of music.

It distracts me too much.

 

[Robsta]

Bring some headphones.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I might do that, are you wearing some now? Probably blocking out the sarcasm of my last post.

 

[oldmanondorf_]

the more ridiculous and unnecessary rules the better

 

[Grim Tuesday]

the more ridiculous and unnecessary rules the better

Good, we should ban Waveshine > Falcon Punch combos then.

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

ban controllers

 

[oldmanondorf_]

ban TVs, wiis, gamecubes, TVs, copies of smash and pants

 

[Vyse]

I'll just put an end to this now.

1) Wobbling will be banned: Reason?

People don't want to go to tournaments, much less fly across the country, to lose to Wobbling. Simple.

Brawl is a different basket of eggs. Brawl players accept the game as it is, much like MvC2 players accept the game as it is.

Melee on the other hand lacks a lot of these subjective flaws, bar Wobbling. If the community decides it doesn't want it, just like stages, I see no problem with banning it.

2) I strongly agree with Grim Fandango: Reason?

It's gay and/or dumb is a bad reason to ban anything. That it props people up 'artificially' is not a bannable reason either. It's a reflection of the character really. I strongly disagree with banning it on a personal philosophical level, but not as a responsible TO and I don't want to get into why in this thread any further than that.




So, let's move on from all this please

The poster should go up soon at GameTraders and Aika is always talking to customers for me, so it should fetch a good amount of players.

 

[xXArrowXx]

B a n ~ B a n a n a ~ A n d ~ n a n a n a n a ~ B a t m a n

unban wobbling so i can vs some iceclimbers instead of top tiers.

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

Brawl is a different basket of eggs. Brawl players accept the game as it is

Is that a joke? Brawl has a ****ton more rules than melee, especially when it comes to infinites/cg's. still bias as ever >_>

 

[MTGod]

Jesse: Prepare for trouble!
James: Make it double!
Jesse: To protect the world from devastation!
James: To unite all peoples within our nation!
Jesse: To denounce the evils of truth and love!
James: To extend our reach to the stars above!
Jesse: Jesse!
James: James!
Jesse: Team Rocket blast off at the speed of light!
James: Surrender now or prepare to fight!
Meowth: Meowth, that's right!

**** you Sam I never said that!

 

[tedeth]

Perth you guys are so ****en weird.

 

[Corpsecreate]

**** you Sam I never said that!

You said it while you were sleeping........

In other news, due to unforeseen circumstances, I will no longer be able to attend this tournament. I completely blame m2k for this, because it is obviously his fault.

 

[Zxv]

the point here I'm making is that the 1 or 2 people who are on the unfavorable side are nearly always people who dont play alot/ dont play many if any really good players/live in an area with a weak scene/ are stupid/ etc

I'm anti-ban.

as for theorycrafting, yes you are, you have no experiance in this yourself, and thus you theorized that wobbling isnt broken because no-one has ever placed with it (I'd like to see some evidence of this claim btw or I'm going to dismiss it as not being true)

*cough* Wobbles @ Apex 2010 *cough*

Spoiler

Wobbles is amazing though and would've done it easily without the tactic, regardless <3

There was some other stuff I wanted to reply to, but meh I'm too tired to find the quotes for them so I'll reply to the best of my knowledge.

Redact/Dekar's main argument: removes opponent participation and reduces several of the game's best qualities to virtually nothing.

My argument: I don't really have a counter-argument for this specific point. I do value Smash integrity above all, so I can completely understand why people would feel passionate about this.

My general response to every other point is, and shall forever be: learn to play the matchup correctly. Sheik gets chaingrabbed far WORSE than Wobbling vs most other characters (works at 0%, no need for Nana to be synced or even ALIVE). All this does is motivates me to improve my spacing and think harder about playstyle.

 

[luke_atyeo]

lol wtf ted, who's bragging, he said he was in his schools debating team and on the swf debate hall (which is a piece of ****) and in general internet fashion I had to 1-up him, dont you know how these things work.

anyways, any and all argueing aside, everything you said grim achieved nothing, just like I said it would.
so get *****


corpse watches people sleep?

 

[Vyse]

Sheesh, it wasn't even meant to be a stab at Melee.

Is that a joke? Brawl has a ****ton more rules than melee, especially when it comes to infinites/cg's. still bias as ever >_>

No not really. We have LGL. That's the only real difference in rules. And even then that's a rule that's never been supported by the BBR, despite MLG's adoption of it.

The difference in Brawl is that the rules need to be enforced more because the game reaches these situations more often. Otherwise with infinites and CGs it's just like Melee. Stop at 300%. That's it.

In fact, the latest edition of the BBR ruleset has dropped a number of arbitrary rules such as the suicide KO clause for simply that reason: Arbitrariness.

Just as banning wobbling is arbitrary. Melee has the rules as fail safes, but usually never needs to enforce them. Except in this case.

What I meant about accepting the game, is that despite these flaws and rules about them, we accept them and move on. Just as MvC2 players accept the flaws in its own game.

Comprende'?

 

[CAOTIC]

*golf claps*

 

[Grim Tuesday]

lol wtf ted, who's bragging, he said he was in his schools debating team and on the swf debate hall (which is a piece of ****) and in general internet fashion I had to 1-up him, dont you know how these things work.

anyways, any and all argueing aside, everything you said grim achieved nothing, just like I said it would.
so get *****

I said them because you challenged my knowledge of debating. You said them because you just had to be superior xD

I'd already stopped arguing by the time you came along, when I started arguing with you, I was just doing it so you didn't feel like you'd won

 

[Testikills]

Just as MvC2 players accept the flaws in its own game.

Comprende'?

This is a little different, the things like infinite are left in because for the most part they aren't easy to do. The easy ones for the most part only happen when a player makes a huge mistake (calling an unsafe assist ect.)

Magneto's ROM
c.hp, sj.rh, ad df lk, ad.lk, land, [sj.lk, sj.lk addf, ad.lk, ad.lk, land] - repeat in brackets

Little bit harder then grab, press A, swing stick down, tap A

 

[luke_atyeo]

win what exactly?
I was telling you that your dumb in a very elaborate way.
also I cant resist ruining a thread.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

win what exactly?
I was telling you that your dumb in a very elaborate way.
also I cant resist ruining a thread.

Win the argument we were having about whether I'm dumb or not.

Which I won.

 

[Redact]

lUkE mAh HeRo

 

[luke_atyeo]

look grim, its ok to be dumb, you are only 14 years old, you dont know **** about anything yet.
if by winning you mean you think your smart even though everyone else around disagree's then I guess at least your confidence can be commended.

 

[Pantsmann]

win what exactly?
I was telling you that your dumb in a very elaborate way.
also I cant resist ruining a thread.

you revoke your right to say somebody else is dumb when you say "your" instead of "you're"

seriously

on topic: fox has a shine, i plan to use it at this tournament. secret weapon

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^ Very true ^ his literacy is appalling.

look grim, its ok to be dumb, you are only 14 years old, you dont know **** about anything yet.
if by winning you mean you think your smart even though everyone else around disagree's then I guess at least your confidence can be commended.

They see me trollin'

Besides that, I don't know why you are calling me dumb. Considering I countered all your points before, what does that make you? Dumber than a dumb 14 year old.

And by winning I mean "I came up with an argument, and you didn't/couldn't respond to".

And what do you mean "everyone else disagrees"? You're the only person who's called me dumb here

 

[luke_atyeo]

are we really gonna do this again?

also did you know that your iq is directly related to your grammer and puncuation?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

are we really gonna do this again?

If you want, though I'd imagine it'd be pretty similar to last time.

also did you know that your iq is directly related to your grammer and puncuation?

No, I did not know that.