Bones0
Smash Legend
Jump or wiggle out first.
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Data Mah0ne's Stuff about Puff
- Thread starter Mahone
- Start date
Bieber
Smash Apprentice
disagree, it shield pokes like a ************. if you're dancing around someone's shield for a while and it starts to shrink, just jump at it and dair and it'll poke like 90% of the time --> free grab
edit: err i only play against falcos so i'm not sure if this is true against other characters' shields
FrozenLight
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2014
- Messages
- 10
Just a question if I understood DI right:
When Fox wants to Upthrow Upair you at like 70%, you hold c-stick up, while you're being grabbed to gain more height and when he hits you with the first hit of Upair, you smash Control Stick up?
When Fox wants to Upthrow Upair you at like 70%, you hold c-stick up, while you're being grabbed to gain more height and when he hits you with the first hit of Upair, you smash Control Stick up?
Bones0
Smash Legend
The C-stick doesn't do anything when you're being thrown because you cannot ASDI or SDI any throws except Puff's fthrow. Idk if you should have a designated direction to SDI the uair in though. Foxes can compensate by uairing differently, so I think it's optimal to SDI based on the height of their DJ and which direction they are going. If he is too close to you when he DJs, you can SDI down. If he has too much momentum going left, you can SDI right, etc. I'm not speaking from experience unfortunately, so maybe actual Puff players have a more reliable way.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
I thought the thread read, "Bones0 Stuff on Puff" at first glance.
Bones0
Smash Legend
the wizard howl
Smash Apprentice
noobish question, am I guaranteed to shield grab falco's dair if it hits high on my shield as long as I'm quick about it?
Bones0
Smash Legend
It will depend on whether or not he is FFing already, and even if you have enough time to shieldgrab it, you have to keep the spacing in mind because it's not uncommon for Jiggs to slide too far away to reach Falco. Here is a GIF of Marth shieldgrabbing (idk how Jigg's shield or grab hitbox affects this timing, but it should be a good baseline):
****, I hate the new quote windows 'cause it makes everything smaller. I just pasted everything below with the source at the bottom.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
If Fox delays his nair by only 5 frames, he will already land so early that his shine will break your perfect grab.
If he does an instant shffl nair (nair starts as soon as he is airborne), you will have a 4 frame window for the grab.
If he delays by one frame, this window increases by one. This is due to instant aerials going less high due to gravity being applied on the first frame of an aerial, but not of an empty hop. So Fox will land earlier when he does an instant nair than if he does a 1-frame-delay nair.
Two frames delay ⇒ 4 frame window
Three frames delay ⇒ 3 frame window
Four frames delay ⇒ 1 frame window.
This is Fox’ latest nair (4 frames delay) you can still grab:
Source: Kadano
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Kadano
Magical Express
I still got the notification (from your earlier revision, I assume) and noticed a mistake I made. I typed 4 instead of 5, so I contradicted myself by claiming that a 4-frame delay will make Fox’s shine break the grab and give Marth a 1-frame window for his grab at the same time. I corrected my original post and also added a tiny bit of text, so it would be really great if you could edit your paste to my new revision.
I’ll proof-read all of my posts from now on. I don’t want misinformation spread and I certainly don’t want to spread it myself, so I can’t rely on others calling out my mistakes and contradictions.
To get back to the original question, you can negate the sliding problem by using shield SDI towards your opponent so he is within your grab range again. If Falco drifts backward after hitting your shield and does not fastfall, he can move out of your range again, though. So it’s really far from “guaranteed”. (Outside of TAS-level with triple shield SDI.)
idea
Smash Master
what i do is...
1. Fox upthrows, DI one way (ideally behind them, sometimes away from them if it takes you far enough offstage)
2. SDI the other way on the first hit of upair
3. Jump as you SDI
the jump works similarly to SDIing up and can pull you upward out of the second hit.
this might not be optimal, and depending on timing i might be cancelling out the jump with the SDI in some cases, but it seems to work for me.
i also pay attention to when i get the SDI but the second hit connects anyway, which just happens sometimes if they position themselves well. stupid fox.
1. Fox upthrows, DI one way (ideally behind them, sometimes away from them if it takes you far enough offstage)
2. SDI the other way on the first hit of upair
3. Jump as you SDI
the jump works similarly to SDIing up and can pull you upward out of the second hit.
this might not be optimal, and depending on timing i might be cancelling out the jump with the SDI in some cases, but it seems to work for me.
i also pay attention to when i get the SDI but the second hit connects anyway, which just happens sometimes if they position themselves well. stupid fox.
Manatee
Smash Apprentice
Hello fellow Puff mains! I was wondering if you guys can critique my play. I went to a tourney this weekend and one of my pools matches got recorded. I was playing against OkamiBW, who is a pretty campy Sheik. Anyway, I lost pretty badly so I was wondering if you guys have any advice. I did okay the second match.
http://www.twitch.tv/leveluplive/b/498477182?t=211m10s
Any insight would be much appreciated!
http://www.twitch.tv/leveluplive/b/498477182?t=211m10s
Any insight would be much appreciated!
the wizard howl
Smash Apprentice
first impressions:
game 1 okami’s actually not camping you that badly but your not-great spacing lets him slip in places where you can’t move or get a good-priority hitbox out fast enough. It looks like you’re so eager for a hit that you’re jumping in with fairs on impulse and getting punished pretty hard.
okami saw you fsmash 3 times, got hit with one, and didn’t get hit with any more that were significant for a while. Basically you showed your hand so the risk-reward got skewed way out of your favor.
I would prioritize positioning for uairs on sheik in many of the places that you nair or fair because uair is so easy to follow up in this MU. It looks like okami is watching out for utilts, but if you can find a way to slip them in they’ll work great too. Puff is amazing under sheik so try to create ways to put yourself there. You have to take advantage of her mobility to stay safe (not necessarily out of the way, but safe) until those opportunities come.
game 2 okami is definitely spacing wrong but props for being watchful and taking advantage of that.
soooo funny. Note how the rests weren’t real risks because they were on reaction. They’re like that in this MU.
game 3
he’s smacking you over and over for being obvious with your fairs. That’s pretty much why you lose.
DL lets okami have a ton of mobility but you don’t have to chase after him if you don’t want to (read: if you'd be at a disadvantage). All he's doing is fairing so space around the fair and punish on reaction until he decides to play neutral off the platforms.
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Manatee
Smash Apprentice
Thanks for replying!
I'll definitely have more of a spacing mentality next time I play him. This was the second time I played him in tournament, and I feel like I did better this time around.
When I got that out of shield rest on his fair, I knew it was going to be a good game. I just started to let them fly. I probably won't be so lucky next time.
Generally speaking, I think I need to work a lot on my patience.
I have been told by many people that my playstyle is kind of odd because it emphasize a ground game more than the aerial. And that I play with a high risk/high reward style. Do you think it's hurting me? Should I try to be in the air more often?
I'll definitely have more of a spacing mentality next time I play him. This was the second time I played him in tournament, and I feel like I did better this time around.
When I got that out of shield rest on his fair, I knew it was going to be a good game. I just started to let them fly. I probably won't be so lucky next time.
Generally speaking, I think I need to work a lot on my patience.
I have been told by many people that my playstyle is kind of odd because it emphasize a ground game more than the aerial. And that I play with a high risk/high reward style. Do you think it's hurting me? Should I try to be in the air more often?
the wizard howl
Smash Apprentice
Do what works for you. It looks to me like game 2 was an amazing example of how that can work out and game 1 is one of where it didn't so much. Seeing your puff cold (I think I've watched a vid from you before but I don't remember it well) I would venture to say that your risks and ground game are good staples until proven bad. Like, when rests are working then let them rockkk but when CC rests/raw fsmashes don't work a couple times in a row then take note so you don't eat punishes that you don't have to. Puff's got a deep bag of tricks.
Mahone
Smash Champion
havnt been on this board in forever
for a quick lazy critique, ur high risk stuff is fine vs sheik, u should only eat a grab fair so at low percent who cares
the main problem was ur spacing and COMBO DI
always just di super far away with jiggs, because unlike other characters, its not a big deal if u go offstage, its way safer than predicting ur opponent is going for the finisher and di'ing in
as for spacing, in game one, mixing in empty hop grabs would have helped balance your play since he felt safe just shielding even though you were moving really well around his shield, u gotta mix in grabs or if u wanna be high risk/high reward just mix in lands right next to him, then try to time a uptilt when u think he'll drop shield or something along those lines
to fix ur spacing would involve me looking at this vid 100 more times and im kinda lazy now but hes just outspacing u so much so u should rewatch and look for 2 main things (these are the things that tend to result in what i consider "bad spacing").. look at your move choice and look at his/your relative positioning (e.g. hes above you on a platform)
of course bad spacing can also be u don't tip ur bairs or something and get shield grabbed, but most people are past that kind of stuff and u can obv. spot that urself anyway
in game 2 u shielded a lot, vs shiek u should usually be crouching instead, make sure u practice wavedashing while crouching when ur alone, because u need to be able to do this consistently (this is usually why people dont crouch during tourney- they feel stuck crouching since they arent comfortable moving in/out of the crouching)
beginning of g3 is a good example of move choice/positioning, u are throwing out so many moves that cant even hit him, and if they did, they wouldnt even be the aerial u want
a basic strat that was missing was catching sheik with upair... when i played reno he did his infamous plat camping whatever and played kinda similar to okami, and i just caught him with upairs and destroyed him cuz everytime i was right i got an upair rest or something leading to rest and everytime i was wrong i just got faired or someething and was di'ing away so thats it
id probably ban dreamland vs okami until u have that down, but idk, really if u just get the lead on dreamland u can make it hell for them so its up2u
for a quick lazy critique, ur high risk stuff is fine vs sheik, u should only eat a grab fair so at low percent who cares
the main problem was ur spacing and COMBO DI
always just di super far away with jiggs, because unlike other characters, its not a big deal if u go offstage, its way safer than predicting ur opponent is going for the finisher and di'ing in
as for spacing, in game one, mixing in empty hop grabs would have helped balance your play since he felt safe just shielding even though you were moving really well around his shield, u gotta mix in grabs or if u wanna be high risk/high reward just mix in lands right next to him, then try to time a uptilt when u think he'll drop shield or something along those lines
to fix ur spacing would involve me looking at this vid 100 more times and im kinda lazy now but hes just outspacing u so much so u should rewatch and look for 2 main things (these are the things that tend to result in what i consider "bad spacing").. look at your move choice and look at his/your relative positioning (e.g. hes above you on a platform)
of course bad spacing can also be u don't tip ur bairs or something and get shield grabbed, but most people are past that kind of stuff and u can obv. spot that urself anyway
in game 2 u shielded a lot, vs shiek u should usually be crouching instead, make sure u practice wavedashing while crouching when ur alone, because u need to be able to do this consistently (this is usually why people dont crouch during tourney- they feel stuck crouching since they arent comfortable moving in/out of the crouching)
beginning of g3 is a good example of move choice/positioning, u are throwing out so many moves that cant even hit him, and if they did, they wouldnt even be the aerial u want
a basic strat that was missing was catching sheik with upair... when i played reno he did his infamous plat camping whatever and played kinda similar to okami, and i just caught him with upairs and destroyed him cuz everytime i was right i got an upair rest or something leading to rest and everytime i was wrong i just got faired or someething and was di'ing away so thats it
id probably ban dreamland vs okami until u have that down, but idk, really if u just get the lead on dreamland u can make it hell for them so its up2u
Jwillii
Smash Cadet
http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-sdi-foxs-u-throw-u-air-and-not-die.217426/ beautifully illustrated guide for SDI on foxes U-air. If anyone still had questions about it.
FlamingForce
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2013
- Messages
- 390
Hey Mahone are their any vids of you fighting Marth available online? I'd like to see your expertise at work.
Mahone
Smash Champion
sadly no, i never bother getting recorded
ill try to get me vs some marths up in the future and let u know
ill try to get me vs some marths up in the future and let u know
RaphaelRobo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 2,833
Kevin said you're really good at using SH Nair. That move is amazing. Do you have any good videos of how you've made use of it?
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
So I'm experimenting with handicaps and CPU level to try to replicate the speed a human opponent could counterattack with after an imperfect crouch-cancel (the SDI down kind, not the true CCing), to give me a better idea of how fast/far away I have to be to not get ****ed. So far, the closest I've come is my handicap 1, CPU handicap 7, CPU level 7 (at that level Fox almost always jabs after getting hit, which feels about the same speed as imperfect CC -> usmash). Has anyone ever experimented with this approach before, possibly utilizing the damage ratio settings?
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FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Also, editing a post apparently results in a double-post sometimes.
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Mahone
Smash Champion
sorry for the late response, i check smashboards like once a month...
i dont know if i do, but if u watch old mango videos, he uses it a lot, i think him vs chudat from rom had a lot of sh nair in it because i think its really good vs ics so u can look that up
RaphaelRobo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 2,833
I'll take a look at that. Thanks for the suggestion.
And when are you next going to be in NC? I need to learn stuff from you.
And when are you next going to be in NC? I need to learn stuff from you.
ZetTroxX
Smash Journeyman
Is it possible to edgecancel the up-B?
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Considering Puff's terrible running speed and relatively high friction, I seriously doubt it--maybe in TAS but not real life. However, it is possible to run off a ledge and up B without jumping, thus grabbing the ledge immediately. Easiest way is to run towards the ledge, sticky walk by tilting the control stick to 45 degrees up and forward, then when you run off the ledge you tilt the control stick just barely past 45 degree and press B. When you get good enough, you can start running and shield-dropping off of side platforms and using up B to edgehog.
Bones0
Smash Legend
What happens if you groundtech by the ledge and use Sing right before you fly off? Will your momentum carry you off and cancel the up-B, or will you stay at the ledge doing Sing until it ends? I know normal attacks prevent you from flying off until they end, but one specific instance of special moves doing something crazy is Luigi's super WD where he fireballs as he WDs off and he goes super far. That'd be sick if Jiggs could do that and cancel her up-B. Because, you know, she needs a better edgeguard game. 
Edit: I think if you WD to the ledge and Sing, it cancels (hard to tell if I'm getting the Sing off before I slide off or after). If you are facing on-stage, you slide off and grab the ledge. If you are facing off-stage, you just teeter cancel. I might be mistaking jumpsquat for the beginning of the Sing animation though.
Edit: I think if you WD to the ledge and Sing, it cancels (hard to tell if I'm getting the Sing off before I slide off or after). If you are facing on-stage, you slide off and grab the ledge. If you are facing off-stage, you just teeter cancel. I might be mistaking jumpsquat for the beginning of the Sing animation though.
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the wizard howl
Smash Apprentice
why isn't brinstar legal, this stage is amazinggg
King5280
Smash Journeyman
Hey I just got some matches recorded for the first time, and if someone could critique me a bit I would really appreciate it. Both of my sets were against foxes and I can always use advice in that mu. This was at the spartan arcadian (so no ranked players) this last weekend. I was a bit nervous my first set cause it was my first time on stream and my first singles match of the day in pools against one of the favorites, then my second match was the in the first round of bracket.
http://www.twitch.tv/umsmash/b/519269223
First one vs Soul starts at 1:52:30 and the second one vs Zbet starts at 4:04:45.
Thanks guys, any help is appreciated.
http://www.twitch.tv/umsmash/b/519269223
First one vs Soul starts at 1:52:30 and the second one vs Zbet starts at 4:04:45.
Thanks guys, any help is appreciated.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
I can't give you much MU-specific advice since I personally suck against Fox, but I think I can give you some general tips.
Mix up your techrolls. You techrolled away every time, and the second Fox caught you with at least one balls-in usmash because of it.
Wavedash out of shield more. If you shield a laggy move, you can wavedash in and grab which is usually a harder punish than an aerial. In other scenarios, you can wavedash back and grab to punish bad shield pressure. Also, Foxes seem to approach crouched Puff way less than shielded Puff ... dunno if that's just the Foxes I play or what.
Avoid doing fairs/bairs right before you hit the ground. More so than other top tiers, Puff needs to optimize her movement just to keep up and 10 frames of l-canceled landlag sucks if you can't weave out. Some alternatives are low aerial Pound (vs. CC) or empty land -> grab (vs. shield).
You go from offstage to the ledge pretty well but I think your ledge to onstage options could be expanded. One thing I use a lot is to ledgehop and waveland straight down as close to the ledge as possible. Most people don't expect it, so you just get onstage for free. Ledgehop dair is also really good.
Basically, just tighten up your skills and keep up the good work.
Mix up your techrolls. You techrolled away every time, and the second Fox caught you with at least one balls-in usmash because of it.
Wavedash out of shield more. If you shield a laggy move, you can wavedash in and grab which is usually a harder punish than an aerial. In other scenarios, you can wavedash back and grab to punish bad shield pressure. Also, Foxes seem to approach crouched Puff way less than shielded Puff ... dunno if that's just the Foxes I play or what.
Avoid doing fairs/bairs right before you hit the ground. More so than other top tiers, Puff needs to optimize her movement just to keep up and 10 frames of l-canceled landlag sucks if you can't weave out. Some alternatives are low aerial Pound (vs. CC) or empty land -> grab (vs. shield).
You go from offstage to the ledge pretty well but I think your ledge to onstage options could be expanded. One thing I use a lot is to ledgehop and waveland straight down as close to the ledge as possible. Most people don't expect it, so you just get onstage for free. Ledgehop dair is also really good.
Basically, just tighten up your skills and keep up the good work.
the wizard howl
Smash Apprentice
I've been experimenting with trying to avoid having to grab ledge altogether. It's different and makes interesting things happen.
RaphaelRobo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 2,833
So I found out on Saturday that forward facing Nair to rest is a thing on Marth. What's the exact timing for it? Like this here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dLSrt4_EiY#t=4m30s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dLSrt4_EiY#t=4m30s
Bones0
Smash Legend
It doesn't matter which way you're facing. Just learn to abuse nair's insane autocancel frames. Take notes from The King:
RaphaelRobo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 2,833
Doing it with a reverse Nair is incredibly easy. The forward facing Nair seems to be a lot harder to pull off. Although that might be because I think they need to DI in for it to work.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Or just be really low % and not DI. But really, every time I can land the ac nair at all, I either get a rest, a grab, or an fsmash.
EDIT: Looking at the hitbox for the nair, I have to agree that forward-facing ac nair -> rest would be more difficult than backward-facing ac nair -> rest, just because you're already a little inside them for backward-facing nair to connect, whereas the forward-facing nair is much more disjointed and doesn't appear to overlap with the rest hitbox at all. However, I think grab/fsmash are still easily possible off ac nair in either direction.
EDIT: Looking at the hitbox for the nair, I have to agree that forward-facing ac nair -> rest would be more difficult than backward-facing ac nair -> rest, just because you're already a little inside them for backward-facing nair to connect, whereas the forward-facing nair is much more disjointed and doesn't appear to overlap with the rest hitbox at all. However, I think grab/fsmash are still easily possible off ac nair in either direction.
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MaPow
Smash Apprentice
Is there a reason that it's super easy to get the Nair-> rest on luigi rather that like marth or sheik? I can also do it well against peach.
FerrishTheFish
Smash Ace
Because Marth and Sheik players are better than Luigi players? Seriously, it should be easier for Luigi to escape that **** with DI up and away.
Bones0
Smash Legend
The only significant factors are the character's hurtbox size and weight (higher weight means reduced KB meaning it's easier to stay on top of them). It's possible Luigi's hurtbox contorts in his stun animation in a way that is conducive to being rested more than the other characters, but more likely you're just imagining it (or the Luigi you play against DIs in a lot lol).
MaPow
Smash Apprentice
I mean I was doing it to a pretty good luigi player. I just find it easier to Nair rest floaties.