Data Mah0ne's Stuff about Puff

[RaphaelRobo]

I main Kirby. I just play this other Kirby in tournament sometimes too.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Yeah, I occasionally play Mime-Kirby. His bair, Rest, and general air speed are just as good as Puff's.

 

[Fortune]

hey did you guys know you can combo drill into drill?

 

[T0RN]

Help with pulling off rests? I can never seem to hit them lol

 

[FlamingForce]

Aim better, not much more to it honestly.
Also be fearless with it, especially in friendlies, dont hold back on the crazy rest attempts during friendlies, get comfy using it.

 

[T0RN]

Aim better, not much more to it honestly.
Also be fearless with it, especially in friendlies, dont hold back on the crazy rest attempts during friendlies, get comfy using it.

Alright thanks

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

Alright thanks

The hurt box for jiggs is the hitbox for rest.

Practice against level 4 cpus as level 1 cpus are slightly more difficult as there is no di

Imo Cpu lvl 4 is easier to rest because it has directional influence

 

[HMWii22]

The hurt box for jiggs is the hitbox for rest.

Give or take about 80% of it

 

[Fortune]

Help with pulling off rests? I can never seem to hit them lol

If the above post wasn't clear, HMWii22 is pointing out that hurtbox of puff is NOT the hitbox of rest. The hitbox of rest is the small purple circle in the center of the blue puff outline in HMWii22's second posted image.

As you can see, the rest hitbox is actually very small. The center of puff, then, must overlap the hurtbox of your opponent.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

So I played a Sheik for the first time in like a year, and tried to put a lot of effort into learning the matchup. Here's a recording I made of my fifth game (I played five with this Sheik and two with another Sheik, but this Sheik was a lot better at the matchup, so after learning from him I was able to beat the other Sheik). If you can give me any advice that would be amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQCHe9YBV70

 

[T0RN]

If the above post wasn't clear, HMWii22 is pointing out that hurtbox of puff is NOT the hitbox of rest. The hitbox of rest is the small purple circle in the center of the blue puff outline in HMWii22's second posted image.

As you can see, the rest hitbox is actually very small. The center of puff, then, must overlap the hurtbox of your opponent.

Ok thanks for the help everyone.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

So I played a Sheik for the first time in like a year, and tried to put a lot of effort into learning the matchup. Here's a recording I made of my fifth game (I played five with this Sheik and two with another Sheik, but this Sheik was a lot better at the matchup, so after learning from him I was able to beat the other Sheik). If you can give me any advice that would be amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQCHe9YBV70

Assuming you haven't gotten some advice on this MU in the 3 weeks since you posted this...

1. Don't get grabbed. This basically translates to, "Don't be within Sheik's grab range unless you are in the air or crouching." You can weave out, land/end up behind them, or empty jump and crouch (Puff can't L-cancel aerials fast enough), but do not get grabbed. Grabs are a major source of damage for Sheik since dthrow -> fair/uair is guaranteed (or nearly) all the way up to death %.

2. Exploit their shield. Your opponent had been conditioned to shield but you didn't **** on them really hard for being in their shield.

Easy way to exploit the shield is to empty land (preferably behind them) and grab.

Stupid way to exploit the shield is to empty land right in front of them and immediately crouch so you can Rest the knee-jerk shieldgrab.

Super pro way to exploit the shield is to land (in front or behind them) and predict them dropping their shield with an utilt.

3. Tighten up your edgeguards.

Plan A is to be on the ledge and have ledge invincibility when their upB hitbox comes out. This forces onstage recovery which you can punish hard, often with Rest.

Plan B is to edgehog their double-jump then have regular-ledge-getup-invincibility (press Control Stick towards stage) when their upB hitbox comes out. Time it right, and you will still edgehog them if they upB to the ledge. You can punish onstage recovery just as hard as Plan A, but they will usually upB straight up and try to fall to the ledge. Dash attack or fsmash covers that pretty well.

Plan C is to hit them before they get the invincible frames of their upB. This is risky and imo not worth it. Plans A & B will cover like 90% of edgeguard scenarios and they are better in basically every way. Maybe if you have the ledge and they burn their dj in a really stupid way, other than that I let them recover for free if Plans A & B won't work.

4. Zoning and Camping.

LOLOL because I play super aggro against Sheiks and Peaches. My advice is to not take zoning/camping advice from someone like me.

Also to utilize the platforms more because watching that game I think there were maybe 3 times in the entire game where you purposely and entirely of your own volition landed on platforms. I'm not saying to be on them all the time, but actively trying to avoid them makes your aerial movement predictable. A quick waveland or ledgecancel refreshes all your jumps and can catch your opponent off-guard.

Also don't get hit by needles (air dodge is a legit option here) because that little damage adds up really fast.

Also don't recover with Pound near the stage unless you are 110% sure it will hit, or else you will get punished and prolong the edgeguard situation.



... I basically just poured my brains out in a gigantic mess over that one. Hope some of it helps.

 

[Mahone]

Well, heres some puff vs marth...

u can learn a lot of stuff to not do i guess lol, but maybe u guys can get something out of it, im glad i finally have some vids so i can watch them and learn and go back and hopefully do better and try out some new stuff


http://www.twitch.tv/kick_scar_off_the_mic/b/636090819

let me know if u have questions or comments

 

[Fortune]

omg the actual stream of my dreams

edit: nevermind. i thought there would be more jokes, it's too srs

 

[Tekk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbhKBIAL8UE

Bunch of matches, pretty good stuff vs falco/marth/falcon, also leffen trashing me.

 

[Mahone]

lol, ya it was too serious, he was in a super serious mood that day rofl

 

[Keblerelf]

sup. can i get a critique?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P37hXS5HuDc

some things that I noticed:

-I didn't use enough bairs. I think bair is the main move i should be using against marth cuz of the range. Fair is too easily outspaced and i def. used a lot of fair here
-my tech skill needs to be less inconsistent
-I can't just hold down to DI against marth's throw (at least against The Moon), I think i need to actually predict and DI a direction
-i have a hard time waiting for their invincibility to run out without putting myself in a bad position when it actually does run out. What should i do?
-i shouldnt try and jump up and over them (i actually have this problem with a lot of characters)
-I go for sheild grabs wayyy too much. Better option oos that isn't fair? Should i just wd back?

if anyone can answer these questions/points and any other ones i may have missed you'll be really cool in my book

 

[Mahone]

honestly ur critique covered most of it, if u fixed all that u would destroy him

inbetween stocks is rough vs marth, but u can just watch the matches again and come up with a vs moon specific strat for now.
an example of a generic one could be lightshield on a platform and then sheilddrop if they try to land and grab u

sorry not to add too much, but tbh, until u primarily use bair as ur spacing tool, i cant really comment, since u just kept getting hit for spacing foward or doing fairs when they were too weak

 

[Keblerelf]

an example of a generic one could be lightshield on a platform and then sheilddrop if they try to land and grab u

might try just cuz it's different.

And what do you think about out of shield options besides fair? I noticed in your stream vid sometimes you used uair. How has that worked out for you?

 

[Mahone]

it should work out better than it does, cuz i usually dont time it exactly how i want it, but ya itd be better than fair, i mean, rising fair oos can be cced til a billion so its not a good option

im not really sure though what ur referring to with fairing oos, u make it sound like it was a major issue, but i mostly saw u just not hold shield long enough and get hit, i only saw u do that specifically like twice? in the set

wd oos into grabbing him will probably work as a mixup for now, since the one time i saw it g1 he sheilded and thats often what marths will do since they are expecting a counterattack

 

[Keblerelf]

im not really sure though what ur referring to with fairing oos, u make it sound like it was a major issue, but i mostly saw u just not hold shield long enough and get hit, i only saw u do that specifically like twice? in the set

yeah in that set i didnt do it as much but in general i do it a lot when i shield against marth. I'm afraid of holding shield for a long time because of shield breaker but i guess i shouldnt be afraid if he doesnt use it

 

[squible2]

Speaking of marth vs puff, does anybody have any advice for this set?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tcu8ZcRnOYo

I think run up sheild is really good on a marth that respects your duck. If he does anything except dtilt, you can punish with fair or rest oos depending on the spacing. When Hbox get dtilt pressured, he just rolls away, so that seams like a decent option when they dtilt.

I think I need to nair less and use rest when marth up B's on stage all the time.

 

[Keblerelf]

yo only watched the first match so far, but one comment on your edgeguarding:

if marth is hitting you when you are trying to regrab, try to just jump from the ledge and hover back to grab it instead of using aerials. The jump will make you avoid the upb hitbox and you can grab it again. the only problem is the timing is different.

game 2
-when you CC'd marth's fsmash you went for a fair but you could have fsmashed instead. He was at a % where it could have killed
-when you powershielded his fsmash at 5:35 you jumped out and faired but you could have done a pound or a wd grab. Fair would just get cc'd but pound might have knocked him down (not sure about %) and grab wouldn't have gotten cc'd and you could have gotten him to the side of the stage
-5:42 you could have fsmashed him instead of going for sh fair
-i like your shield drops! and reverse fairs at the edge! i need to incorporate that into my edgeguards
-6:23 when he misses his tilt and you go for a fair you could have uaired and juggled him

game 3
-seemed like you played entirely different from game 2. you used a lot less shield and a lot more floating around.

game 4
-13:26 if you're going to pound, do a rising pound. Pound as you go onto the stage usually doesn't work against ppl in the first place but by doing a descending pound he could have just upb'd and you'd have gotten hit.
-16:05 idk why you went off stage. DL is big enough to float around so that marth can't touch you. But you put yourself off stage and you had to recover against marth at 0 so he could cc all your approaching moves. pretty dumb, just stay on.
-16:39 you dair a lot from shield drops. try to uair instead esp since he missed a utilt. I think you would have had time to uair him and you could have combo'd him. In general i think you need to try and use uair more when they are above you. I try to get marth to jump and then if im below him i just uair.
-16:50 an example where you could have done a uair instead of a bair. Uair leads to combos but that bair didnt do anything cuz he wasnt at a % where you could have put him off stage
-18:58 a bair would have been better than reverse fair
-19:20 you could have fsmashed instead of fairing

 

[squible2]

Alright, so when is it better to edge guard with the ledgehop fair to regrab, and when is it better to edge guard with just a ledge hop regrab?

 

[Keblerelf]

you'd need to see based on how early he is up bing. if he up b's early try to go for the jump, otherwise go for the aerial regrab

 

[squible2]

Cool, thanks for watching my whole set. Looks like I'll try and forward smash out of ccing more moves, and use up air more. I also want to do shield drop rest if I can shield a forward smash on a platform.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Just highlighted the broadcast of you vs PP so it shouldn't go away when Twitch does it's stupid expiration thing

 

[FerrishTheFish]

April 1, 2015: The day Smashboards re-defined the term, "Shaq-ing Up." 'Scuze me while I go play some p-ball.

 

[Doroco]

how do i land an up air on marth, if they ever use their shield its easy, but if they dont i usually get a single bair/fair, and if i get the chance to read a tech it only leads to another bair/fair.

also **** marths floatyness my free rests are jumped out of

final thoughts are falcos a dong to fight and i would rather wreck a fox

 

[-LzR-]

You don't land **** against Marth. You do a single Bair then you get the hell out because Marth doens't get hitstun from anything and you will get faired to the face 5 times if you go for a follow up.

 

[Theftz22]

Drill -> rest. Is this real? I theorized that if drill -> grab combos, drill -> rest should too. I tested a little bit in training mode and it looks like a combo.

 

[CASHMONEYDOLLABILLS]

Drill -> rest. Is this real? I theorized that if drill -> grab combos, drill -> rest should too. I tested a little bit in training mode and it looks like a combo.

pree sure this only works on no DI or DI in to Puff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08DuRbz3JYk

 

[FerrishTheFish]

You don't land **** against Marth. You do a single Bair then you get the hell out because Marth doens't get hitstun from anything and you will get faired to the face 5 times if you go for a follow up.

I am of the opinion that Puff cannot win the Marth MU without the use of grabs and uairs. But that could just be because I always CP Falcon against Marth.

Drill -> rest. Is this real? I theorized that if drill -> grab combos, drill -> rest should too. I tested a little bit in training mode and it looks like a combo.

Drill -> rest is a combo if you get spikestun on them. That's the weird flippy hitstun animation that takes like 2x as long and puts their hurtbox right inside you. It can only happen at certain percentages for each character, and I'm too lazy to look them up. But between about 40% and 100% I think you can get it on all characters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08DuRbz3JYk

 

[-LzR-]

A big problem I have with Puff is when my opponents are below 40%. No matter what I do they can crouchcancel and nothing is safe on hit, sometimes a crouch cancel isn't even necessary. How can I get these first 40% safely? It's really getting on my nerves. Especially when no matter how much I try I can't crouch cancel anything.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

A big problem I have with Puff is when my opponents are below 40%. No matter what I do they can crouchcancel and nothing is safe on hit, sometimes a crouch cancel isn't even necessary. How can I get these first 40% safely? It's really getting on my nerves. Especially when no matter how much I try I can't crouch cancel anything.

Grabs, my bro-lloon type Pokemon. Empty-land grab is amazing against shield and CC-spammers. You can mix that up with dair and Pound if they catch on and start dropping the CC early.

(tbh, my favorite part of the stock is when they are between 10% and 40%, but I'm biased because I go for too many techchase Rests.)

 

[Keblerelf]

A big problem I have with Puff is when my opponents are below 40%. No matter what I do they can crouchcancel and nothing is safe on hit, sometimes a crouch cancel isn't even necessary. How can I get these first 40% safely? It's really getting on my nerves. Especially when no matter how much I try I can't crouch cancel anything.

I think this is a huge problem, especially against fox. It's why I try to change up playstyles depending on what % the other guy is at. I'm trying not to fair until they are >40% just cuz everyone can CC that move and it's way too slow if I hit with the strong hit.

Like ferrish said, go for grabs since they can't CC that. Also, get under them if they are jumping/on top platforms and uair. And I think retreating bairs are safe.

 

[Keblerelf]

Is uthrow-->sh uair-->regrab on fox/falco at 0%is a true combo? I do this instead of resting because if you're at the center of a non YS stage you can't kill with a rest anyway and this gets more damage. No one has been able to jump out of it when I play them but is it a true combo or are they just not jumping right?

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Is uthrow-->sh uair-->regrab on fox/falco at 0%is a true combo? I do this instead of resting because if you're at the center of a non YS stage you can't kill with a rest anyway and this gets more damage. No one has been able to jump out of it when I play them but is it a true combo or are they just not jumping right?

I'm pretty sure they can shine out of it, possibly jump. Nobody's ever escaped it on me either, but it just doesn't seem like a true combo.

I actually tend not to go for grabs when they're at 0% because I can't Rest off of them. I'd rather take the chance of getting a Rest setup later on than getting damage right now and putting them on guard for Rest. I just try to bait them into approaching generally so they can't CC whatever I punish them with.

 

[Keblerelf]

I actually tend not to go for grabs when they're at 0% because I can't Rest off of them. I'd rather take the chance of getting a Rest setup later on than getting damage right now and putting them on guard for Rest. I just try to bait them into approaching generally so they can't CC whatever I punish them with.

What? How does going for grabs put them on guard for rest? That sounds like it should have the opposite effect. If you choose to grab them every time you get close enough, they'll think you're going to grab.

"Just batiting" them seems too inconsistent to depend on. What happens when they don't fall for the bait? It just seems better to go for the damage and get them above CC % than to hope they fall for something and then get your damage that way.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

What? How does going for grabs put them on guard for rest? That sounds like it should have the opposite effect. If you choose to grab them every time you get close enough, they'll think you're going to grab.

"Just batiting" them seems too inconsistent to depend on. What happens when they don't fall for the bait? It just seems better to go for the damage and get them above CC % than to hope they fall for something and then get your damage that way.

...Because grabs can lead to Rest setups? Space animal slayer or platform techchase Rest spring to mind. The only times I've gotten space animal slayer on non-scrubs is with a grab into a buffered uthrow when they were expecting something else. If they're expecting a grab they'll just DI the uthrow. You're only gambling about 9% damage vs. a whole stock. I take that gamble, especially when they're at 0% where a throw won't lead to a followup or an edgeguard.

And how is baiting and punishing "too inconsistent?" That's how you play this game.