Data Mah0ne's Stuff about Puff

[MaPow]

Yes, because you have to get that animation to land the Rest, and the Rest is faster than either of those.

I think we need a more informative name than "flippy animation," preferably something about getting spiked. I'm going to propose "spikestun" for the time being.

I was able to consistently spikestun with the 1st hit of the dair at 60% on every character I have tested. I haven't explored the % windows for the different characters (mainly because Netflix has new Pokemon episodes hey-o) but phanna's numbers are probably accurate.

Thus far, my tests are still showing me that the 1st hit is the most consistent spikestunner. Plus, fewer hits means less chance to SDI out of Rest/grab/usmash, and it makes a deadly mixup with tomahawk.

alrighty, i thought so, but the rest is pretty tough to land so i usually opt for the grab. And dair is indeed a good mix up as well as an outstanding shield poking tool.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Also, put your handicap to 6 and their handicap to 3 so you can practice using the C-stick for spikestun on them from 0%.

 

[MaPow]

Also, put your handicap to 6 and their handicap to 3 so you can practice using the C-stick for spikestun on them from 0%.

This just dawned on me, but isn't it called a "tumble" animation?

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Tumble is when you are spinning while falling in the air after hitstun has worn off. Spikestun is a pretty unique animation that will cause you to swear when you are trying to CC Falco's dair and instead he gets a free grab.

 

[knoxvader]

Can someone explain to me how a basic autocancel nair into rest works? I can get it sometimes but I don't see how anyone can be consistent with it.

 

[the wizard howl]

Can someone explain to me how a basic autocancel nair into rest works? I can get it sometimes but I don't see how anyone can be consistent with it.

you autocancel nair and if you land (with normal empty landing lag) while they're reeling back in hitstun and overlap your model you rest it.
This one is mostly % dependent. Good SDI makes it harder. It's also significantly easier to pull off if you nair in backwards.
In practice it's a trusting my gut thing, for me.

 

[knoxvader]

Cool, thanks.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Can someone explain to me how a basic autocancel nair into rest works? I can get it sometimes but I don't see how anyone can be consistent with it.

It's not really possible to be "consistent" with it. They'll see it coming a mile away because you have to start the nair so early, and even if you land the nair I doubt it's a true combo at the %'s where they don't get knocked too far away. Plus they can probably SDI out of it: either SDI away or SDI up -> air dodge/dj.

Assuming they mess up, then all you have to do is start the nair within 2 frames of jumping, DI into them (preferably facing away from them and connecting very late), land inside them w/o fastfall or l-cancel, and Rest.

In general, I try to reverse ac nair in situations where I can land behind them if they shield and/or knock them a safe-ish distance away if they get hit. So, ac nair -> grab/fsmash is what I would go for instead of ac nair -> Rest.

 

[knoxvader]

Oh, so I shouldn't be FF'ing. I can see why this is rather unreliable, then haha. Immediate aerial and non-fast-fall'd... lol. Thanks again. I think I'll be going for more grabs.

 

[the wizard howl]

nair grab is godlike

 

[MaPow]

puffs grabs are death

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Anyone remember the discussion on the "flippy" aka "spikestun" animation we had earlier on this thread? Where I said it's caused by being hit by a spike? Couple things happened to me since:
1. I got the flippy animation with a low Falcon stomp.
2. I got hit by Zelda's dtilt.

Neither of those moves is a spike, so I did some experimenting and found most or all the moves that can result in the flippy animation (only tested spikes and meteor smashes), as well as instructions on how to get them so others can verify (most are pretty simple). Didn't bother to test CCing, since only spikes can interrupt CC before the the % is high enough to get a knockdown. Also didn't bother to figure out % ranges, so I'm just listing %'s where I got it to work pretty consistently. I used Training Mode, Yoshi's Story, vs. Captain Falcon for all these tests.

EDIT: Through experiments with the slanted fin on Corneria, I believe the primary requirements for the flippy animation are:
1) The knockback is the correct power (affected by %, move, and sweetspot vs. sourspot).
2) The victim does not leave the ground (affected by knockback trajectory and ground angle).
Hitting the lower hitboxes of the character seems to help, but is not always necessary. I also believe that the ground flippy animation is somehow related to the aerial flippy animation, although I have not proven this (and probably won't).

Moral of the Story: The flippy animation isn't anything special. Spikes and Meteor Smashes produce it more often only because down is the direction the ground is usually in.

[COLLAPSE="If Anyone Cares"]Zelda: Dtilt (40%), Low Dair (45%)
Falco: Low dair (40%)
Marth: Low dair (0%)
Falcon: Low dair (0%)
Samus: Low dair (0%)
DK: Low dair (0%, facing backwards)
Mewtwo: Low dair (20%, facing backwards)
Kirby: High dair (40%, only connect with 1~3 hits, pretty tough to line up)
Roy: Dair (0%, Falcon on side plat, full jump immediate dair from sloped ground)
Yoshi: Dair (90%, Falcon on side plat, short hop from ground), Fair (0%, Falcon on side plat, short hop from ground)
Luigi: Dair (10%, Falcon on top plat, full jump from ground)
Mario: Fair (10%, Falcon on top plat, short hop from side plat)
G&W: Dair (20%, Falcon on side plat and have him roll towards center stage a couple times, line up G%W under Falcon's back foot and full hop immediate dair, tricky to line up)
Puff: Dair (previously discussed), Dsmash (30%)

More which use Corneria's fin slant:
(All: Place Falcon on the fin, just a little higher than where the fin meets ground)
Peach: Nair (15%)
Falco: Dsmash (15%), Nair (25%)
Fox: Dsmash (15%)
(Probably tons more)

Could not get:
Peach: Dtilt (Too powerful, knocks Falcon airborne at 0%)
DK: Fair (Too powerful, knocks Falcon airborne at 0%), Forward B (Pushes opponent into ground)
Ganondorf: Dair (Too powerful, knocks Falcon airborne at 0%), Reverse uair (Tested up until it started knocking Falcon down), Down B (Too powerful, difficult to line up on the ground)
Fox: Dair (Tested up to about 200%, just never happened)
Ness: Dair (Too powerful, knocks Falcon airborne at 0%), Dtilt (Never happened)
IC's: Fair (Too powerful, knocks Falcon airborne at 0%)
Link: Dtilt (Too powerful, knocks Falcon airborne at 0%)
YLink: Dtilt (Too powerful, knocks Falcon airborne at 0%), Dair spike (Too powerful)
Pikachu: Uair (Too powerful, knocks Falcon off of plats, too difficult to line up elsewhere)
Marth: Dtilt (Never happened), Third hit of Forward B aimed downward (Couldn't line it up right, has shorter range than first two hits)
Roy: Dtilt (Too powerful, knocks Falcon airborne at 0%), Usmash (Either too powerful, or couldn't line it up right)[/COLLAPSE]

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Mahone, how much longer until you're sponsored by Dr. Seuss?

 

[Mahone]

He's already made an offer, but I'm weighing my options atm...

although his offer was really cryptic and involved a lot of words i think he made up on the spot

 

[RaphaelRobo]

If you come down to a tournament some time, I'll take a break from entering everything as KirbyLover69 and enter as BlueFish instead.

 

[The Prince: SDJ]

I just learned that Yoshi can double jump armor rest.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Yeah, he can do that. Yoshi MU is unusual because Puff's aerials don't break his dj armor until about 80%, so before then you have to weave out from aerials that you land in the air. It's tough to edgeguard him because of that as well.

It's also tough to hit him from behind when he's in the air, because the "hinge" of his dj turn around is like the base of his tail. (If you get below him, tho, he can't really challenge uair whether it breaks his dj or not.)

His invinc head during usmash also makes ground approaches risky, especially since he has this glitchy ability to laglessly insta-land on platforms by aerialing or dodging during his dj through the platform, so if he lands an usmash he has surprising follow-up potential.

I play arguably the best Yoshi in AZ on a semi-regular basis. The MU is definitely Puff favor, but Puff really has to play the hit-and-run game really well or you'll end up trading too much or getting egg-walled.

 

[squible2]

You can rest yoshi oos if he down smashes your shield.

When I play the yoshi matchup, I basically only use bair. Atleast all the yoshi's I've played have had no real answer to it. They can't outrange it with anything, and yoshi isn't fast enough to jump between spaced bairs. As FerrishTheFish said, if your careful to weave your aerials away, you can avoid yoshi's dj armor counter attacks. This is one of the few matchups where "bair more" is great advice.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

I don't know that you've been playing very good Yoshis, Angel never uses any smash moves on my shield, he just goes for jabs, tilts, dj canceled aerials for some surprisingly good shield pressure ... I'd say that this is a MU where you don't have to be afraid to roll, because Yoshi has a difficult time adjusting for that when he's dj canceling stuff.

He can use his dj armor and eggs and dj cancels and crazy wavelands on the plats to take center stage at low-ish percents, and that puts him in a good position to throw more eggs, trade aerials, trade aerials for his absurd smash moves, or super shield your aerials and wavedash in to punish or at the very least CC the next aerial and push you closer to the ledge. Smart uairs or CC utilts or hard-read fsmashes can put a stop to that nonsense, but you do need some good reaction time.

That being said, you can totally go for riskier stuff than JUST bairs. Tomahawk grabs put in work (fthrow and bthrow seem best imo), dairs and tomahawk utilt can combo into rest and those early KOs are really valuable in this MU because they force him to approach, and frankly Yoshi's strengths in this MU lie in defense, eggs, and trading.

EDIT: I suppose I should clarify a few things because first glance seems contradictory ... You still have to play the hit-and-run game very well. But the "hit" part of the hit-and-run game can be something riskier and more rewarding that JUST bairs. You still have to get out of there fast if it doesn't work, because eating a Yoshi fair is not very appetizing.

Arguably, "bair more" is not the optimal approach for this MU simply because the riskier stuff is there and can scare them, keep them honest, get inside their head, let you know if you can get away with it and end the match faster. JUST bairs increases the chance that you will mess up and give him opportunities to trade or push you into a bad position.

 

[Mahone]

If you wanted to write a Yoshi guide, i could add it to the original post, i feel like we all probably need advice in that mu

 

[Mahone]

I might just shut down this thread though, since its just worse than this one:

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-Jigglypuff-in-Super-Smash-Bros-Melee


I was wondering why my friends who can't lcancel were using rest as an anti-air vs my fox's fh nair approaches

 

[FerrishTheFish]

I might just shut down this thread though, since its just worse than this one:

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-Jigglypuff-in-Super-Smash-Bros-Melee

Not 100% sure who, but that comparison is selling someone short. My guess is it isn't the one using screenshots from Smash64 lmao

I guess at some point I can write a Yoshi MU guide. Not much more to say than has already been said, but I'll make a post eventually that organizes stuff good and you can just copy-paste to the OP.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Ok, here is the Yoshi MU Guide, roughly formatted to the style of the OP.

Spoiler: Yoshi MU Guide

Hey-oh Yoshi

Ferrish Percentage: 50-50
Actual Percentage: 60-40 Puff

Yoshi can be a nightmare if you aren't familiar with his deep bag of tricks. His eggs can give you a real headache. He has lots of ways to trade with you, is tough or impossible to edgeguard/combo before about 80%, and his air speed is almost as good as yours (better with smart wavelands on plats). He can combo you better than most char's thanks to his glitchy auto-cancel insta-land on plats during his dj, even when ascending. He can dj armor Rest and punish you with fair which combos into fair or uair, both of which suck to get hit by. His moves in general are very powerful. His shield pressure should not be underestimated. The good news is Puff has the tools to deal with all that.

Yoshi's strengths in this MU are all in his defensive zoning and ability to trade favorably. His approaches are situational at best and gimmicky at worst. Due to the nature of his dj, he can either go low or cover horizontal distance but generally not both at the same time. What this means for you is that if you are grounded or very low, Yoshi can't approach you willy-nilly unless he has low% and center stage, if he has plat wavelanding shenanigans, or if you have high% and he nails you with an egg. Even then, you can generally counter with basic stuff like wavedash back, uairs, retreating bairs. This means you can easily be at a range where you are threatening bair but still be pretty safe from him, except maybe eggs. Watch for his backwards sh bair which covers a ton of space and trades way more often than it should (or maybe I just suck), and also watch out for plat malarkey that can get him to center stage where he really wants to be.

If you get stuck in your shield, keep in mind that he has decent shield pressure. His jabs and tilts are pretty good, and his dj-canceled nairs are fast and can stay out of grab range. He can easily adjust to cover the distance of your wavedash oos unless you are really perfect with that timing, but there's no reason to when rolling away from him does a much better job. Again, his dj's nature means he has a tough time following a simple roll--maybe dash attack, but that's not exactly a top-tier shield pressure move.

All in all, his inability to approach you and the relative ease with which Puff can escape make it very difficult for Yoshi to challenge your hit-and-run game. That being said, don't try to beat Yoshi with just bairs. There's a reason he's still around when all the other dinosaurs are dead, and that's because he powershielded the asteroid like a boss has a million ways to trade with you. His fsmash/usmash/dash attack give him invinc head. His powershield and CC give him opportunities to close the gap, if not counter you outright. He can tank through your aerials with his dj until about 80%, and because the "hinge" of his turnaround dj is about the base of his tail, if you aerial him from behind his dj will get him way closer to you than it appears. His afore-mentioned bair trades too often. He doesn't suffer shieldstun, so if you aerial his shield on a plat he can shield-drop and throw out an aerial or an egg. Plus, when you break his dj you have to hit him again to actually send him flying, so you might end up bairing him up until 120% on every stock. That's a lot of opportunities for him to trade with you, and you can bet that good Yoshi's are going to make good use of them.

You can totally go for tomahawk/ac grabs, or try to bait him into a position where you can get a grab. I generally find that fthrow is best just because of damage, but other throws have uses too. Utilt or low uairs at low% scare the crap out of him even if it doesn't chain into Rest. Fsmashes can also freak him out. Getting a stock lead off of a Rest can give you control of the entire match and force him to rely on his bad approaches. Keep in mind that you do have to work your top-tier tomfoolery into a hit-and-run strategy. You can't get in, start trading blows, and still expect to win. You also can't go for Rest willy-nilly, because eating a Yoshi fair is unappetizing and leads to an uair or just another fair and techchase.

Moral of the Story: You win this MU if you can play smart, not get lost in his trick-or-treat bag, and keep him guessing if you're going to wall him out with bairs or go in for top-tier malarkey.

Levels To Counterpick:
Final Destination - Without plats to waveland on or hide under, Yoshi can't keep up with you in the air or throw eggs very safely.
Fountain of Dreams - The high ceiling really helps you out. Plus, half of the stage becomes FD once that plat sinks into the ground.
Yoshi's Story - Kind of double-edged, but if you want to go for janky Rest combos, you want to make sure they KO.

Levels To Ban:
Pokemon Stadium - The low ceiling makes approaches harder and side plats make egg camping easier.
Battlefield - No real reason, it just seems like that is the favorite stage of many Yoshi's and the one they practice on the most.

Positives in the MU
Yoshi doesn't have a reliable response to Puff's hit-and-run game
Puff can easily edgeguard Yoshi if he loses his dj
Yoshi fears Rest combos even if they don't actually lead to Rest
Puff can roll out of Yoshi's shield pressure

Negatives in the MU
Egg camping
Yoshi has many tricks to take center stage and can keep you out once he gets there
Yoshi has many tricks to give him trading opportunities and his moves are quite powerful
Yoshi can dj armor the Rest

Also, you should totally post my Falco MU Guide to the OP!

Spoiler: Falco MU Guide

D!ck him in the beak until he can't CC and/or starts shielding.
Then d!ck his oos options.
Weave out just enough to not get counter-d!cked.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

That guide could be onto something. The other day I used SH Rest to counter a Falco's SH lasers. Felt pretty legit. Maybe I should forget all my other moves and only use rest.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

That guide could be onto something. The other day I used SH Rest to counter a Falco's SH lasers. Felt pretty legit. Maybe I should forget all my other moves and only use rest.

8O Hao 2 weev out w Rset plz

 

[Palmerfan]

Is this the Q&A thread? I'm a little unfamiliar with the jigglypuff section of the forums, it's different from most of the others.

If I land a drill on a fox (at 0%, 40%, and 80%), what should I do afterwards? I usually end up flubbing the L cancel while I try to weigh which of my options are better. Is there any solid go to combos for it?

 

[FlamingForce]

If done correctly and the fox doesn't shine you can actually rest him after a drill.

 

[the wizard howl]

I grab unless the situation calls for something different (drill->upsmash kills floaties)
but we've been talking about drill->rest and if you practice that you can get a good feel for it.
Also keep in mind that dair and nair can be interchangeable and nair has more variable followups (grab/dash attack/fmash/rest/etc)

 

[Palmerfan]

Doesn't nair have more knockback at higher percents, though? Also. should I be autocancelling or L cancelling the nair?

 

[FlamingForce]

I grab unless the situation calls for something different (drill->upsmash kills floaties)
but we've been talking about drill->rest and if you practice that you can get a good feel for it.
Also keep in mind that dair and nair can be interchangeable and nair has more variable followups (grab/dash attack/fmash/rest/etc)

Drill > usmash > rest is actually a thing vs spacies on certain %s (usmash > uair > rest can also work) but it's kinda DI dependent.

 

[the wizard howl]

Doesn't nair have more knockback at higher percents, though? Also. should I be autocancelling or L cancelling the nair?

um, it depends on the situation.
autocancel is obv better framewise but sometimes you won't get it in places that you would get the Lcancelled one because it's hard not to telegraph.
You get a lot more out of making small reads than you do memorizing combo trees with this character.

 

[MaPow]

a lot of this is rarely ever guaranteed. mainly because they can buffer rolls away. the only reliable combo i use is drill to grab when they are at a high enough percent to go into the spike stun animation (you can also fsmash after drill at a certain percent). otherwise just wait to see what they do after the drill. as for nair its super hard to follow up i prefer using late fairs its safer and has more reliable follow ups

 

[FlamingForce]

Well if drill > grab is ever gauranteed then drill > rest sure as hell should be.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Well if drill > grab is ever gauranteed then drill > rest sure as hell should be.

Not really. Grab has much better range and disjointedness, so unless you are constantly landing within Rest range, grab is going to be an available option way more of the time (on top of beating shield).

Also, hooray that someone used a word I made up 8D

 

[FlamingForce]

Assuming you land in range, yes, the situation that mapow describes (the drill stun flippy thing) shouldn't make this too hard cos the flip actually makes alot of hurtboxes easy to hit

 

[MaPow]

Not really. Grab has much better range and disjointedness, so unless you are constantly landing within Rest range, grab is going to be an available option way more of the time (on top of beating shield).

Also, hooray that someone used a word I made up 8D

hahaha thats what we call it here on the puff boards

Assuming you land in range, yes, the situation that mapow describes (the drill stun flippy thing) shouldn't make this too hard cos the flip actually makes alot of hurtboxes easy to hit

ok so i've been testing drill on fox and you can indeed rest after if your close enough because either his head or his feet connect with rests hitbox, but i think it's better to space drill and go for grab (if he goes into spikestun) simply because it's super hard to guarantee spikestun with jiggs and if he di's away rest won't work because fox can shine out of spikestun around frame 20 (if he di's away you gotta dash > jump > rest so it takes up too many frames).

so, if you space your drill, get the spikestun, and he di's away you get nothing but percent from your drill, however if he doesn't di you get a grab. Where as if you don't space it, he goes into spikestun, and doesn't di you can rest (on reaction), but if he does di or doesn't do into spikestun then you can get punished.

imo it's just much safer to space drill and try to get a grab out of it rather than goin in banking on getting the spikestun and him not di'ing.

 

[AGLET]

If fox is overshooting his nair can you powershield rest it? If not what's the best punish? Also is there a way to practice powershielding moves like Fox nair by yourself?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Crouch under his Nair and SH Rest, then brag about it for the rest of the day.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

The hardest punish if they overshoot is to normal shield, wavedash backwards oos to right behind them, sh Rest their spot-dodge, then record it and make it go viral.

They will never recover. As a player or a person.

 

[net1234]

you are all bad people and you make me cry. :'( dont make me cry go play kirby or something he has 5 jumps too