Data Mah0ne's Stuff about Puff

[BTmoney]

abu such a phony puff

 

[Bones0]

Just played a new Puff player in my region named Dix. He's MAD good... like Smash prodigy good. Can't wait to see how he places at Xanadu later today. Make sure you guys check out VGBC's stream. :D

 

[knightpraetor]

i don't remember seeing a new puff? is this more of your trolling?

 

[Bones0]

i don't remember seeing a new puff? is this more of your trolling?

Mahone was supposed to enter Xanadu as "Dix" and win Scorp-style, but he's a jerk. lol We were joking about a potential Dr. Peepee vs. Dix grand finals.

 

[the wizard howl]

how do you practice by yourself?
so far I have fastfalls, l-cancel drills, and mirror videos.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Practice ledgecancels and autocancels. Tomahawk is good to practice too.

 

[Bones0]

Mahone always says to practice moving as soon as your lag on moves ends. So for instance, do a late, L-cancelled bair, then wavedash away. Then keep repeating it so that your WD happens sooner and sooner after your L-cancel lag finishes. Do that with all sorts of different aerials and timings, especially autocancels, and mix up your followup actions.

 

[Fortune]

Mahone always says to practice moving as soon as your lag on moves ends.

This

 

[idea]

^That's good advice for every character

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Yeah, but it's especially crucial for slow characters like Puff. The hardest part of playing a slow character is making them look fast.

 

[Prince_Abu]

any thoughts on the icies matchup? besides nair to rest and edgeguard with up smash

what stages are good

 

[Bieber]

ban stadium. fd and fountain kinda blow. yoshis battlefield and dreamland are all good

since ic's can't really dash dance you can be pretty aggressive against them. get in their face with ac nairs, mixup between fading away and crossing them up. nairs > bairs against ic's because the hitbox is out for longer, so it can stuff their long wavedash better which is by far their best movement option. a lot of ic's will just wavedash at you and throw out a smash attack, so always keep their full wavedash range in mind and be ready for that. a good counter is to pound as soon as they wavedash towards you, because it'll beat out the smash attack. pound is pretty ****ing amazing in general because it puts them both in the air and splits them up, so it should usually to a free nana kill, make sure you space pound so you don't get grabbed tho

nair rest is amazing but don't force it. it's pretty obvious when you're diving on top of ic's with a nair, so they'll usually be ready for it. it's best to pull it out when you notice them spamming crouch cancel, because if you do it right ac nair rest will beat their crouch cancel

sopo sucks but still has pretty powerful smash attacks, which he'll probably spam, so don't be afraid to play lame, bait out smash attacks, and bair him over and over

abu you should come down to a chicago tourney over christmas break or whatever and play trail for a while, he's really good to play against for learning the mu. we'll puff ditto too so you don't get rocked by idea again


edit: watch match 1 of this **** http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox0cSPGyvL8

 

[Bones0]

Make sure you know if the set is bo3 or bo5. Also, don't fall for any irl mindgames like watching your controller for DI or putting their controller on the ground, then picking it back up and usmashing you. I realize this advice is kinda vague, but I figure it's better than nothing.

 

[idea]

bair is super good vs. ICs. killing nana is really important, but you don't necessarily have to rest her, you can also just aerial her repeatedly then go way offstage and hit her with anything.

uhh...watch out for surprise wavedash in dsmash/fsmash. nintendude got a bunch of kills on me by reading my movement and dsmashing

also in my experience pound is actually bad in this matchup, because ICs shield constantly and they are never really doing anything that prevents them from shielding before pound comes out. but that could just be different ICs playstyles and stuff.

i dunno the exact %s but upsmash doesn't kill for a while. i wanna say it's around 120% on most neutral stages. better to edgeguard with bair or fsmash until you're sure upsmash will kill.

 

[Prince_Abu]

thx bieber/idea

the nair sounds interesting, i havent thought of that vs icies but it looks good, ill experiment with it i guess

 

[Mahone]

its probably the best aerial vs ics imo

idk why, it just seems better than bair in a lot of spots

 

[Prince_Abu]

its probably the best aerial vs ics imo

idk why, it just seems better than bair in a lot of spots

ur falcon is garbage

 

[idea]

...Wait a minute

Mahone
Member Since: April 19, 2010

Prince Abu
Member Since: April 19, 2009

 

[BTmoney]

just get ***** by chu abu. you stand no chance

 

[Habefiet]

Kind of a weird/vague question that I don't anticipate wording well, sooo be forewarned

I've gotten actively worse at edgeguarding spacies as a result of not having really played any for a while (my practice partners these days are a Marth, a Sheik, and an ICs respectively, which is not that helpful when half of everybody plays spacies ) and I think it's because my spacing/timing to get them and keep them in my "if you act now I can kill you" zone has become atrocious. I'm never in the right spot and I'm constantly guessing/predicting rather than reacting or at the very least having the positions such that the odds are rigged in my favor.

So basically, where do I want to be each step of the way? If they're far from the stage and still high up and falling in, should I stay on the ground or jump out? What about the height just above side-B sweetspot height? Should I just wait for them to move or is that where I jump off and wait for the sound? Is it generally better to remain grounded and wait/react or to threaten from the air a bit? Where in the air if so? I know it's partially contingent on the player and whatnot but I'm shockingly bad at it across the board nowadays so I think I just need to go back to basic fundamentals a bit and build up again.

Sorry that this question is so broad/vague, I can't really think of how to be more specific. Maybe I should have made pictures lol

Any help and tips of any particular kind = much appreciated. Particularly good videos, general principles, anything.

GJ getting sort-of-first at that couldn't-finish-on-time-Ohio thing Abu

 

[Prince_Abu]

Kind of a weird/vague question that I don't anticipate wording well, sooo be forewarned

I've gotten actively worse at edgeguarding spacies as a result of not having really played any for a while (my practice partners these days are a Marth, a Sheik, and an ICs respectively, which is not that helpful when half of everybody plays spacies ) and I think it's because my spacing/timing to get them and keep them in my "if you act now I can kill you" zone has become atrocious. I'm never in the right spot and I'm constantly guessing/predicting rather than reacting or at the very least having the positions such that the odds are rigged in my favor.

So basically, where do I want to be each step of the way? If they're far from the stage and still high up and falling in, should I stay on the ground or jump out? What about the height just above side-B sweetspot height? Should I just wait for them to move or is that where I jump off and wait for the sound? Is it generally better to remain grounded and wait/react or to threaten from the air a bit? Where in the air if so? I know it's partially contingent on the player and whatnot but I'm shockingly bad at it across the board nowadays so I think I just need to go back to basic fundamentals a bit and build up again.

Sorry that this question is so broad/vague, I can't really think of how to be more specific. Maybe I should have made pictures lol

Any help and tips of any particular kind = much appreciated. Particularly good videos, general principles, anything.

GJ getting sort-of-first at that couldn't-finish-on-time-Ohio thing Abu

thx i actually did get 1st since hanky basically forfeited winners finals to me since i always beat him and then split 2nd/3rd in LF with chu. the only way I wouldve lost the tourney had they wanted to play it out was if somehow i lost to hanky or if chu beat hanky in LF. nair is really good at covering spacy side b, if they up B bair is usally ur best bet. another good thing to do is b throw them off and do a fake jump to bait the side b, then u walk and rest them. the only way this doesnt work is if they either dont side b or if they shorten the side b on reaction. if they are far from the stage and falling in use bair on reaction or something

 

[FerrishTheFish]

So basically, where do I want to be each step of the way?

If they are about stage level or anywhere below (i.e. too low to illusion onto a side plat), I usu just edgehog really fast. It beats sweetspot illusion/shortened illusion which a lot of spacies will try at least once bc they don't expect Puff to try edgehog or don't think Puff can take the ledge quick enough or something. My fav mindgame: full-jump facing away from the stage and then grab on backwards with Sing (which you can do without jumping if you haven't used an aerial jump yet). It's not too risky vs. spacies bc worst case scenario their illusion gets there first but hits you out of Sing so you don't die, and you could prob just fair an early illusion on reaction.

Once you take the ledge, you have 30 invinc frames but more importantly you are in position to react to all options: edgehog sweetspotted anything, bair/nair/reverse fair above-stage illusion (which you can ledgecancel to cover shortens), bair/nair any height upB.

If they are high and close-ish to the stage, it's really hard to get anything. I'm not sure it's possible to cover high upB to plat, fastfall sweetspot illusion, and everything in between all at once. If you watch their habits and can read or bait something, go for it, but honestly a good player is prob going to make it back. I'd say your best bet is to take the side plat (facing inward is best imo) which puts you in a decent position to hit them out of or after a high upB, or to drop through and tip a dair on a fastfall sweetspot illusion (which you can ledgecancel to continue the edgeguard).

EDIT: Also to keep in mind that you don't have to go balls-in for the gimp every time they're offstage. Sometimes your safest option is to let them get back and to set up a hit or a grab for after they make it back to rack up damage/start a tech-chase game/get them offstage all over again.

Hope this helps.

 

[Bones0]

Mahone just jumps offstage with a dair and covers all of my options.

 

[Kaizer]

a lot of this are about timing. fox and falco can jump -> airdodge if you go too early for the edgeugard, they can side-b faster than ur aerial, etc. just find that perfect time to jump out and react, or do a fakeout. finding patterns in the way they get back to stage can be useful also.

but honestly, if they firefox you should get the kill.

i don't really like holding the edge, since it makes jiggs slower in the situation where she's at the top of her game (best edgeguarder in the game). at least when we are talking about spacies, but this is also situational.

 

[Habefiet]

Thanks for the ideas folks

I was going to wait to respond until I got a chance to play and try to put these ideas into practice but it looks like that's gonna be another couple days so

Responses appreciated <3

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Um ... Falco illusion hitbox comes out on frame 18, Fox illusion hitbox comes out on frame 22, and both hitboxes lag behind them by 3 frames. Puff fair comes out on frame 7. Assuming you're not right next to them, you have 11 frames + 3 frames = 14 frames ~ 1/4 second to react to Falco illusion and 15 frames + 3 frames = 18 frames ~ 1/3 second to react to Fox illusion, which is plenty. Plus if they are in sweetspot illusion position you could probably just blindly throw out the fair (or nair [frame 6] or dair [frame 5]) and they either illusion and get hit or go low to upB and lose their stock that way.

EDIT: Also, in people's opinions, how beneficial is it to spend time learning to cross-up dairs as a mix-up with weaving out? (There's different definitions of "cross-up," but I mean: last hit of dair hits them from one side to make them face that way, but you land on the other side behind them). It seems like it would be nice to have the extra security of taking their back, but the spacing is pretty tight even without them CCing or SDIing. Obviously, its effectiveness would be MU-dependent, but I can see it being useful vs. Peach, Marth, Sheik, and Falcon.

 

[swanized]

when ever I edguard a sheik player I'll grab the edge but she'll hit me with the fire from her upB befroe coming back to the stage. What should I do about it?

 

[Bones0]

when ever I edguard a sheik player I'll grab the edge but she'll hit me with the fire from her upB befroe coming back to the stage. What should I do about it?

Watch what Hbox does and copy it. >.>

 

[Fortune]

You can use invincibility you gain from grabbing the ledge to avoid getting hit by it. You can also aerial (usually fair) to cancel out the fire hitbox (I think).

 

[BTmoney]

Any new school MU help vs Marth and Sheik?

I would like more Marth help if I had to choose one

 

[the wizard howl]

apologies if this has been covered recently but can someone tell me all I need to know about dthrow>knee?
Obv it's better to crouch the grab, but I don't know the %s etc for when it happens. Also can't you rest it at low %s?

 

[Habefiet]

Any new school MU help vs Marth and Sheik?

I would like more Marth help if I had to choose one

You should prob be more specific about the nature of the help you are seeking.

My main "general tip" is to stay way more grounded than you do in most MUs, if you are in the air often in neutral you're going to get massacred for it unless you've got a good read on his movement, nawmsain? Use the air as more of a fakeout tool than anything--ex. little short hops that weave in and then away to try to trick him into a bad aerial or grab attempt. Marth's fair covers way too much space way too quickly to risk staying airborne for any significant period of time unless you're in the middle of messing him up.

 

[BTmoney]

You should prob be more specific about the nature of the help you are seeking.

My main "general tip" is to stay way more grounded than you do in most MUs, if you are in the air often in neutral you're going to get massacred for it unless you've got a good read on his movement, nawmsain? Use the air as more of a fakeout tool than anything--ex. little short hops that weave in and then away to try to trick him into a bad aerial or grab attempt. Marth's fair covers way too much space way too quickly to risk staying airborne for any significant period of time unless you're in the middle of messing him up.

Well that right there is already helpful. My biggest issue with the MU is dealing with getting kept out by Marth's fair (and uair if I did something stupid, but I pretty much know what went wrong if/when I'm getting hit by uairs) while I'm in the air. My whole gameplan vs Marth is pretty much wait for him to do something stupid/whiff then kill/hit him. It's so hard to get on him.

It's like if he doesn't make that many blatant mistakes you can't really do anything to him. I feel this way vs Marth and Sheik more than I do vs any other character as Puff.

Any word on getting through to him with nairs? How hard is it in practice to get close enough to Marth to nair him so you can do your puff cheese? (nair->crouch/utilt/grab/fsmsah etc.)
If you can get Marth in his shield does puff have any good shield stab options? His feet or head pretty much always stick out.

Does fair have any specific use in this MU other than combo-ing? Is there any version of useful zoning/walling you can do with fair?

 

[Prince_Abu]

Well that right there is already helpful. My biggest issue with the MU is dealing with getting kept out by Marth's fair (and uair if I did something stupid, but I pretty much know what went wrong if/when I'm getting hit by uairs) while I'm in the air. My whole gameplan vs Marth is pretty much wait for him to do something stupid/whiff then kill/hit him. It's so hard to get on him.

It's like if he doesn't make that many blatant mistakes you can't really do anything to him. I feel this way vs Marth and Sheik more than I do vs any other character as Puff.

Any word on getting through to him with nairs? How hard is it in practice to get close enough to Marth to nair him so you can do your puff cheese? (nair->crouch/utilt/grab/fsmsah etc.)
If you can get Marth in his shield does puff have any good shield stab options? His feet or head pretty much always stick out.

Does fair have any specific use in this MU other than combo-ing? Is there any version of useful zoning/walling you can do with fair?

u suck at this game victor

 

[BTmoney]

u suck at this game victor

keep losing to my puff

:^]

 

[Bones0]

apologies if this has been covered recently but can someone tell me all I need to know about dthrow>knee?
Obv it's better to crouch the grab, but I don't know the %s etc for when it happens. Also can't you rest it at low %s?

 

[swanized]

I often see Hbox do a Dair into upsmash, does that combo if the opponent doesn't shield it and does anyone know whether you have frame advantage if your opponent shields?

also, about resting captain falcon's knee, should you mash rest after getting Dthrown or do you just react to a badly spaced knee? Also, does DI inwards after D throw make it easier to land/for Captain Falcon to mess up?

 

[Krynxe]

I often see Hbox do a Dair into upsmash, does that combo if the opponent doesn't shield it and does anyone know whether you have frame advantage if your opponent shields?

Dair has two properties on hit when the opponent is grounded: regular hitstun and a like a cripple-stun frontflip. The former only combos into rest, because rest comes out frame 1, which is very difficult to accomplish and very risky. The later, which usually happens only if they're at higher percents, combos into several things including upsmash and grab. On shield, dair is terrible which is why it's a risky move. They have large frame advantage, allowing them to grab even if you land behind their shield. But because dair is such an awkward multi-hit attack, people often mess up their timing and fail to punish it if you land behind their shield since it's not an easy grab out of shield BUT it's also very difficult to L-cancel this move when you hit people's shields and vary your timing so this move takes practice to utilize as safely as possible.

also, about resting captain falcon's knee, should you mash rest after getting Dthrown or do you just react to a badly spaced knee?

You shouldn't mash rest for a few reasons:
- If they mess up or miss-space their knee completely, allowing their mistake to lead to a free punish
- If you DI'd correctly and would have been able to escape the attack to begin with
- You simply rest way too early, and it makes the knee they were going for that much easier.
- Rest actually has invincibility frames for the first 26 frames, so if you mash rest you could just rest too early, miss the rest, and then their attack will go right through you allowing them to turn around and punish.
- They could very easily go for spaced uairs instead, which you can't really rest at all, in which case either of the 2 above facts could be true for this move too
All of these lead to free falcon punches or stomp-knees, and it's really not that worth it. There's like 100 other ways to rest falcon, it's not really worth trying this unless you're a beast like hbox

Also, does DI inwards after D throw make it easier to land/for Captain Falcon to mess up?

Almost never DI inward, it makes it super easy for them. Only use it as a way to mix-up your DI if you've been DI-ing away and stuff

 

[Bones0]

Why not airdodge out of dthrow knee instead? Obviously, it's not as fast as resting, but if you really have plenty of time before the knee hits then you should be able to get into the invincibility frames of your airdodge.

 

[Krynxe]

cause you're in like that spinning state after getting hit where you can't airdodge right away