Magus420
Smash Master
Massive European DI!!you're above like 75%
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t6gQyRyTxE#t=0m50s
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Massive European DI!!you're above like 75%
Massive European DI!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t6gQyRyTxE#t=0m50s
I main Jiggs remember and the knockback did get toned down a bit... keep in mind this combo is super easy, high damage, works all the time on the vast majority of the cast, and can't be punished on hit or KO (again, unlike rest).Eh? Did you DI right? I usually can't kill my friends with dthrow>upb with luigi until 120% or so.
Uh, yeah, out of a d-throw he can nearly always land up-b if he feels like it. I mean, if unchanged its really scary. He can string all sorts of things together to lead into the grab also. I might just try and find all the ways to land grabs with Luigi...I smell a nerf. Very, very soon.
Oh, I agree:Data is needed to back up your desires before you start calling out nerfs.
WHY DID I LAUGH HARDER THAN I SHOULD OF.Nair > combos.
B+ = combos
Thus, nair > B+
It's a string breaker. <_>If you can nair during it its not actually a combo
While you're testing with DI on the d-throw the strongest angle for DI on it is mostly full away but slightly downwards like this btw. It's slightly stronger DI than just full away since it doesn't send directly upwards normally, and you go slightly more horizontally this way.Here's some of what I've found so far, I'm checking over my data, but these numbers are at the least very close (a few% points deviation maybe) from the right range:
Definitely f***ed: works to 150+% on these characters and starts working at under 10%. These are all one's I'm completely positive of.
-CF, Charizard, Fox, Falco, Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong, GW, Ivysaur, Ike.
Probably f***ed also: Characters, who based on what I know about there combo resistance, will probably end up in the above category once I check all my % over.
-Mario, MK, Marth, Peach, Pit, Rob, Sheik, Snake, Sonic.
Almost but not quite as f***ed: Basically Jiggs, it works 8-127% on her... lucky us
Mysteriously spared...: yeah, for some reason a few characters are either highly resistent to this combo, or it doesn't work at all.
-Bowser (0-21%), Ganon (doesn't work at all).
% for everyone will be up tomorrow.
The thing about DI with vertical combos is that it isn't super effective for actually escaping them. It forces the opponent to read your DI, but it generally doesn't make enough of a difference to prevent a string from being a combo. I will check with DI when I'm done with initial retesting. I doubt there will be a big difference.While you're testing with DI on the d-throw the strongest angle for DI on it is mostly full away but slightly downwards like this btw. It's slightly stronger DI than just full away since it doesn't send directly upwards normally, and you go slightly more horizontally this way.[/COLOR]
While I feel this is true atm, and we should wait and see if he really needs to get toned down before any nerfing is done.As it stands though it is hard to say his moveset actually needs nerfs.
Could you give an example that results in tangible and significant differences in stun time off of the same launch speed among similarly weighted characters?Actually Magus, Luigi DOES have some kind of stun resistance. The amount of hitstun each character receives varies based on a constant assigned to them based on their weight (but not directly linked to it). Luigi's value is disproportionately low for the weight group that he's in.
Zelda's Dtilt Stun at 50%, and Character Weights
23 Stun: Bowser (1.111, 0.91); Donkey Kong (1.091, 0.20)
24 Stun: Snake (1.076, 0.16); Dedede (1.071, 0.29); Ganon (1.056, 0.91); Samus (1.051, -0.54); Yoshi (1.045, -0.05); Wario (1.045, 0.30); ROB (1.040, -0.32); Ike (1.035, 0.28); Captain Falcon (1.030, 0.92); Link (1.030, 0.46); Wolf (1.020, 1.84); Lucario (1.010, -0.40); Mario (1.000, 0.00); Luigi (0.995, -0.32)
25 Stun: Sonic (0.985, 0.33); Ness (0.980, -0.12); Pit (0.980, 0.00); Lucas (0.980, 0.49); Diddy Kong (0.975, 0.55); Toon Link (0.970, -0.16); Ice Climbers (0.970, 0.07); Peach (0.960, -0.37); Marth (0.944, -0.25); Sheik (0.935, 2.21); Zelda (0.935, -0.26); Falco (0.919, 1.23); Olimar (0.919, -0.47)
26 Stun: ZZS (0.914, 0.44); Fox (0.910, 3.41); Pikachu (0.904, 0.40); Meta Knight (0.904, 0.68); Kirby (0.899, -0.44); G&W (0.884, 0.01)
27 Stun: Jigglypuff (0.849, -0.78)
Luigi's Jab 1 Stun, and Character Weights
11 Stun: Bowser (1.111, 0.91); Donkey Kong (1.091, 0.20); Snake (1.076, 0.16)
12 Stun: Dedede (1.071, 0.29); Charizard (1.061, 0.33); Ganon (1.056, 0.91); Samus (1.051, -0.54); Yoshi (1.045, -0.05); Wario (1.045, 0.30); ROB (1.040, -0.32); Ike (1.035, 0.28); Captain Falcon (1.030, 0.92); Link (1.030, 0.46); Wolf (1.020, 1.84); Lucario (1.010, -0.40); Ivysaur (1.010, -0.16); Mario (1.000, 0.00); Luigi (0.995, -0.32); Sonic (0.985, 0.33); Ness (0.980, -0.12); Pit (0.980, 0.00); Lucas (0.980, 0.49); Diddy Kong (0.975, 0.55); Toon Link (0.970, -0.16); Ice Climbers (0.970, 0.07); Peach (0.960, -0.37); Marth (0.944, -0.25); Sheik (0.935, 2.21); Zelda (0.935, -0.26); Falco (0.919, 1.23); Olimar (0.919, -0.47)
13 Stun: ZZS (0.914, 0.44); Fox (0.910, 3.41); Pikachu (0.904, 0.40); Meta Knight (0.904, 0.68); Kirby (0.899, -0.44); Squirtle (0.884, 1.05); G&W (0.884, 0.01); Jigglypuff (0.849, -0.78)
I'm so on that.Could you give an example that results in tangible and significant differences in stun time off of the same launch speed among similarly weighted characters?
Thanks. I'm interested to see when and by how much of a difference it makes (since there appears to be none on low knockback hits), but I'm unable to test atm as I don't personally own the game myself.I'm so on that.
Knowing this, I will now see what Luigi's constant is.Almas is almost correct. Hitstun is calculated by the formula:
h = m*l / d
H is hitstun in frames. M is the hitstun multiplier constant (the brawl default is .4, and we're using .484 right now). L is the launch speed of the move (you can see max launch speed in the end game results screen). D is a character specific division constant, which can be any of the whole numbers 32, 33, 34, 35, or 36 (faster fallers have higher values and therefore suffer less hitstun).
As you can see, hitstun is linear. However, knockback is nonlinear. You start off going a distance equal to your launch speed, and then travel a progressively smaller value each frame. The rate of decay is believed to be a constant value (this is currently unverified), so moves with only slightly higher launch speeds will cause a drastically larger knockback at higher values. In regular brawl, most moves KOed players off the top of the screen when they reached a launch speed of 6200 to 6300.
This is why it's harder to combo at higher percentages. It's not that they're going too far away. It's that they're going too far away with a stun time that is proportionally smaller to that of when they stayed close.
A lower d value means more hitstun. >.>Okay, I did the math.
Luigi's up b on another luigi has a launch speed of 4880 at 25%, 4925 at 26%, and 4970 at 27%. The luigi is in hitstun for 73 frames at 25%, and 74 at 26 and 27%.
Using the formula h = m * l / d
where h is hitstun in frames
m is the hitstun constant (0.4865)
and l is launch speed as the gm gives it.
hen the three formulas look like this
73 = 0.4865 * 4880 / d
74 = 0.4865 * 4925 / d
74 = 0.4865 * 4970 / d
To solve for d, which is luigi's hitstun constant, we divide (m * l) by h, giving us
(m * l) / h = d
Thus
(0.4865 * 4880) / 73 = d
This d is 32.5222
(0.4865 * 4925) / 74 = d
This d is 32.3785
(0.4865 * 4970) / 74 = d
This d is 32.6744
If we average up the three d's, that gives us 32.525. D must be a whole number, so it is either 32 or 33.
Now, as a frame of reference for hot D works, characters that are combo'd easily have a lower d, as this affords them less frames of hitstun. Characters that are floaty have a higher D so that they stay in hitstun longer. This is done so that floaty characters aren't impossible to combo. D is a value between 32 and 36, inclusive. FFers are usually given 32 or 33, and floaties like jiggs are given 35 or 36.
However, Luigi, a floaty character, which therefore makes him hard to combo by the nature of his physics, who has a high priority combo breaker, combo starter, and killer that comes out on frame 3 has a constant of either 32 or 33, which is reseved for easily comboed characters. Yet Luigi, already resilient to combos, has been made even more resilient to them, when it is unneeded as he has a move in his arsenal designed to break strings. Therefore, luigi's hitstun is broken.
Q.E.D.
The combo actually does work on Ganon. The timing is just really strict at lower % and 100+%. If timed right its a true combo up to 200+%. I decided 150% was too low since a few characters can be combo past 150 but not past 200. As it is nearly every character can be comboed up to 200+% with d-throw to up-b without DI. Luigi, for example, escapes at above 163%. Bowser is weird, since he's actually only affected into the low 20s.That would give the insight as to why Ganondorf can escape Dthrow to Up B, and why exactly it works on who it does. At the same time why Bowser can escape at low percents but not at higher percents.
I'm not positive but I think Ganondorf's massive weight and fall speed causes him to suffer less hitstun then normal, to the degree where he can actually escape the combo. I'm pretty sure heavy/fastfallers suffer less hitstun than the floaties to make up for how easy their physics make them to combo.
More easy to combo? Looking at the % ranges he's susceptible to certain combos, I don't think that's actually true.I just did G&W, and I think his hitstun constant is 32, and he is easy to combo.