Magus420
Smash Master
Massive European DI!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t6gQyRyTxE#t=0m50s
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Luigi in Brawl+
- Thread starter onecrazycanadian
- Start date
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t6gQyRyTxE#t=0m50s
Needs more Pal Falco Dair.
Veril
Frame Savant
I main Jiggs remember and the knockback did get toned down a bit... keep in mind this combo is super easy, high damage, works all the time on the vast majority of the cast, and can't be punished on hit or KO (again, unlike rest).
I don't know the exact KO% for up-b, only the absurdness of the combo.
Uh, yeah, out of a d-throw he can nearly always land up-b if he feels like it. I mean, if unchanged its really scary. He can string all sorts of things together to lead into the grab also. I might just try and find all the ways to land grabs with Luigi...I smell a nerf. Very, very soon.
Arkaether
Smash Ace
Yeah, I know the difference. Still, Jigglypuff dies at like 80% no matter what, so 75% isn't really that surprising. I do agree, though, 30%+ damage for a guaranteed anytime unescapable combo is kind of bad.
Though I actually wouldn't mind except for luigi's utterly absurd resistance to hitstun and his utterly absurd nair. Combined with those two, I agree that this needs some form of nerf.
Though I actually wouldn't mind except for luigi's utterly absurd resistance to hitstun and his utterly absurd nair. Combined with those two, I agree that this needs some form of nerf.
Arkaether
Smash Ace
I will personally vouch that his nair is grounds for instant disqualification in any match.
Veril
Frame Savant
Oh, I agree:
OK, for the purposes of my testing I only go up to 150%. At that point though nearly anything from Luigi can KO anyway.
Here's some of what I've found so far, I'm checking over my data, but these numbers are at the least very close (a few% points deviation maybe) from the right range:
Definitely f***ed: works to 150+% on these characters and starts working at under 10%. These are all one's I'm completely positive of.
-CF, Charizard, Fox, Falco, Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong, GW, Ivysaur, Ike.
Probably f***ed also: Characters, who based on what I know about there combo resistance, will probably end up in the above category once I check all my % over.
-Mario, MK, Marth, Peach, Pit, Rob, Sheik, Snake, Sonic.
Almost but not quite as f***ed: Basically Jiggs, it works 8-127% on her... lucky us
Mysteriously spared...: yeah, for some reason a few characters are either highly resistent to this combo, or it doesn't work at all.
-Bowser (0-21%), Ganon (doesn't work at all).
% for everyone will be up tomorrow.
From this you should be able to see how nuts this thing is.
I'm not calling for a nerf. I just feel I have to point out how amazing this combo is. Take from it what you will... Its insanely good, but at least 2 characters aren't affected by it.
Arkaether
Smash Ace
I don't really care about his dthrow>upb combo. It does 30% damage, yeah, but it's not like other characters can't do that too (shiek, fox, etc). It doesn't kill with DI until 120%+, so it's not really that worrisome.
What I want to see is more hitstun. He gets out of hitstun abnormally fast, not to mention his nair. Oh god, his nair.
What I want to see is more hitstun. He gets out of hitstun abnormally fast, not to mention his nair. Oh god, his nair.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
Luigi is my tertiary, he's fun as hell and I hope they don't nerf him too much. I do agree that the % range for the dthrow->upB shouldn't be so big, but I think his nair is fine, it was his staple move in melee too (I mained Luigi in Melee)
Arkaether
Smash Ace
Nair > combos.
B+ = combos
Thus, nair > B+
B+ = combos
Thus, nair > B+
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
If you can nair during it its not actually a combo 
WHY DID I LAUGH HARDER THAN I SHOULD OF.
It's a string breaker. <_>If you can nair during it its not actually a combo
Arkaether
Smash Ace
C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!!
Oh wait. Excuse me.
B-B-BRAWL+ BREAKER!!!
Oh wait. Excuse me.
B-B-BRAWL+ BREAKER!!!
Magus420
Smash Master
You could say the same thing about him in Melee where he was significantly less comboable than he is here in B+, while someone like Falco could be comboed by stuff like this...
and 'Stomp -> Taunt -> Knee' comboed by Falcon.
You can't expect floaties to be as comboable as the rest of the cast as you have more distance to cover for the amount of stun. He doesn't have some kind of special stun resistance where it ends sooner than normal. Stop jumping into the **** when you can't close that extra distance in time and either bait it or outspace it or something. His range isn't that great and his air speed is pretty bad. Worked fine before.
and 'Stomp -> Taunt -> Knee' comboed by Falcon.
You can't expect floaties to be as comboable as the rest of the cast as you have more distance to cover for the amount of stun. He doesn't have some kind of special stun resistance where it ends sooner than normal. Stop jumping into the **** when you can't close that extra distance in time and either bait it or outspace it or something. His range isn't that great and his air speed is pretty bad. Worked fine before.
Magus420
Smash Master
That better? =P
While you're testing with DI on the d-throw the strongest angle for DI on it is mostly full away but slightly downwards like this btw. It's slightly stronger DI than just full away since it doesn't send directly upwards normally, and you go slightly more horizontally this way.Here's some of what I've found so far, I'm checking over my data, but these numbers are at the least very close (a few% points deviation maybe) from the right range:
Definitely f***ed: works to 150+% on these characters and starts working at under 10%. These are all one's I'm completely positive of.
-CF, Charizard, Fox, Falco, Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong, GW, Ivysaur, Ike.
Probably f***ed also: Characters, who based on what I know about there combo resistance, will probably end up in the above category once I check all my % over.
-Mario, MK, Marth, Peach, Pit, Rob, Sheik, Snake, Sonic.
Almost but not quite as f***ed: Basically Jiggs, it works 8-127% on her... lucky us
Mysteriously spared...: yeah, for some reason a few characters are either highly resistent to this combo, or it doesn't work at all.
-Bowser (0-21%), Ganon (doesn't work at all).
% for everyone will be up tomorrow.
Also, weight slows down his d-throw and with it the frame advantage will be smaller on heavier characters than lighter ones when stun times are equal.
Actually Magus, Luigi DOES have some kind of stun resistance. The amount of hitstun each character receives varies based on a constant assigned to them based on their weight (but not directly linked to it). Luigi's value is disproportionately low for the weight group that he's in.
Veril
Frame Savant
The thing about DI with vertical combos is that it isn't super effective for actually escaping them. It forces the opponent to read your DI, but it generally doesn't make enough of a difference to prevent a string from being a combo. I will check with DI when I'm done with initial retesting. I doubt there will be a big difference.
This combo definitely shows some interesting things about character hitstun though.
I can genuinely put my vote in for Luigi being the best character in the current game.
As it stands though it is hard to say his moveset actually needs nerfs.
He has combos up the butt, kill setups up the butt, and some of the most absurd priority in the game. At the same time he has pitiful range and a really predictable recovery (though great in distance) that is easy to beat out, while those kill setups aren't going to actually do the killing until 120 or so with the right DI on a standard weight character.
What makes him stupid good though is his resistance to hitstun. I have been playing Luigi for a week or so now and I'm already beating players that I know are better then me while they play their main simply because Luigi's Nair is absurdly good as a combo breaker and also setting up for his own combo game. It was like Wolf's shine a few builds back (minus the 0 KGB problem) but the problem now being Luigi's resistance to hitstun. At times you don't even need to DI. Just spam A until Nair comes out.
I think if character specific hitstun came out and Luigi's resistance to it was lessened (not to the extreme because that is a character trait that should stay in, just not to the same degree) then that would be enough to balance him.
Either way though, Luigi is easily my new main in Brawl+.
As it stands though it is hard to say his moveset actually needs nerfs.
He has combos up the butt, kill setups up the butt, and some of the most absurd priority in the game. At the same time he has pitiful range and a really predictable recovery (though great in distance) that is easy to beat out, while those kill setups aren't going to actually do the killing until 120 or so with the right DI on a standard weight character.
What makes him stupid good though is his resistance to hitstun. I have been playing Luigi for a week or so now and I'm already beating players that I know are better then me while they play their main simply because Luigi's Nair is absurdly good as a combo breaker and also setting up for his own combo game. It was like Wolf's shine a few builds back (minus the 0 KGB problem) but the problem now being Luigi's resistance to hitstun. At times you don't even need to DI. Just spam A until Nair comes out.
I think if character specific hitstun came out and Luigi's resistance to it was lessened (not to the extreme because that is a character trait that should stay in, just not to the same degree) then that would be enough to balance him.
Either way though, Luigi is easily my new main in Brawl+.
Veril
Frame Savant
While I feel this is true atm, and we should wait and see if he really needs to get toned down before any nerfing is done.
I have decided that though the combo is really good, it isn't as amazing as I thought initially. Its just really important to know when the move will KO you without DI. Basically punishing this combo is much more feasible when you don't DI and fast fall. The characters that CAN punish this combo best when it doesn't KO are the fast fallers and those with d-airs that shoot them downwards. Other characters can punish this combo up to a point (a pretty low point...), but its really hard to retaliate (and punish Luigi) at mid % if you DI right.
The one thing I do need to make clear though is that even with DI, its an extremely effective combo on nearly the entire cast, and it ensures a KO off a single grab when up-b is in Kill range. So, yeah, its really good but I'm not sure Luigi is so good it needs to get removed.
His hitstun resistance on the other hand is f***ing bs.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
I agree that he should have more hitstun, but I think he should still have less than the rest of the cast, since that is part of his individuality. Plus Wigi needs some love he's never gotten to be high tier before (I know this doesn't mean he should be I'm just kidding............kind of haha)
Luigi is better than Mario
he's never gotten to be high tier before (I know this doesn't mean he should be I'm just kidding............kind of haha)Luigi is better than Mario
Magus420
Smash Master
Could you give an example that results in tangible and significant differences in stun time off of the same launch speed among similarly weighted characters?
Is it only relevant on strong knockbacks? From what I understand there's supposed to be about a 12% difference in stun time between the extremes of this 'resistance' off of the same launch speed (32 vs 36). However, there's no actual deviation at all from the weight-1 order anywhere in either of these 2 lists, so it would seem it's either not applied here or insignificant in this range. It shouldn't be the latter since in the case of Zelda's d-tilt a difference of just 2 in the value would be > 1 frame. Fox is supposed to have 36 right? He's still in the normal location going by his weight.
Veril
Frame Savant
I'm so on that.
Sorta, I think the same launch speed < same % when hit by an attack, since that's actually what is important for the ranges. Clearly the fact that Ganon is immune to down-throw to up-b combo says something when you look at nearly every other character getting comboed at 0-150+
Magus420
Smash Master
Thanks. I'm interested to see when and by how much of a difference it makes (since there appears to be none on low knockback hits), but I'm unable to test atm as I don't personally own the game myself.I'm so on that.
Anyone remember how Brawl determines the hitstun?
I'm pretty sure that character weight, fall speed, and percent determine hitstun but I haven't seen the formula in a long time.
That would give the insight as to why Ganondorf can escape Dthrow to Up B, and why exactly it works on who it does. At the same time why Bowser can escape at low percents but not at higher percents.
I'm not positive but I think Ganondorf's massive weight and fall speed causes him to suffer less hitstun then normal, to the degree where he can actually escape the combo. I'm pretty sure heavy/fastfallers suffer less hitstun than the floaties to make up for how easy their physics make them to combo. If I am remembering correctly here, then Luigi was designed against that formula because his floatiness and medium weight should cause him to suffer a little more hitstun then normal to compensate for how far he can be knocked by attacks.
I'm pretty sure that character weight, fall speed, and percent determine hitstun but I haven't seen the formula in a long time.
That would give the insight as to why Ganondorf can escape Dthrow to Up B, and why exactly it works on who it does. At the same time why Bowser can escape at low percents but not at higher percents.
I'm not positive but I think Ganondorf's massive weight and fall speed causes him to suffer less hitstun then normal, to the degree where he can actually escape the combo. I'm pretty sure heavy/fastfallers suffer less hitstun than the floaties to make up for how easy their physics make them to combo. If I am remembering correctly here, then Luigi was designed against that formula because his floatiness and medium weight should cause him to suffer a little more hitstun then normal to compensate for how far he can be knocked by attacks.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
Hitstun is based on launch speed, the hitstun constant, and the character's individual hitstun.
Individual hitstun is based on the physics of a character. Floaty characters have more hitstun than fast fallers, because floaty characters are sent farther away from attacks than fast fallers.
There is an actual way to test this, and I will, as soon as I get the launch speed for Luigi's up B on another luigi.
EDIT: Quote from leafgreen
Individual hitstun is based on the physics of a character. Floaty characters have more hitstun than fast fallers, because floaty characters are sent farther away from attacks than fast fallers.
There is an actual way to test this, and I will, as soon as I get the launch speed for Luigi's up B on another luigi.
EDIT: Quote from leafgreen
Knowing this, I will now see what Luigi's constant is.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Luigi has always seems to get out of hitstun insanely quick. I've never been able to combo the little jerk. Plus how quick his Nair comes out...
Blah.
Blah.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
Okay, I did the math.
Luigi's up b on another luigi has a launch speed of 4880 at 25%, 4925 at 26%, and 4970 at 27%. The luigi is in hitstun for 73 frames at 25%, and 74 at 26 and 27%.
Using the formula h = m * l / d
where h is hitstun in frames
m is the hitstun constant (0.4865)
and l is launch speed as the gm gives it.
hen the three formulas look like this
73 = 0.4865 * 4880 / d
74 = 0.4865 * 4925 / d
74 = 0.4865 * 4970 / d
To solve for d, which is luigi's hitstun constant, we divide (m * l) by h, giving us
(m * l) / h = d
Thus
(0.4865 * 4880) / 73 = d
This d is 32.5222
(0.4865 * 4925) / 74 = d
This d is 32.3785
(0.4865 * 4970) / 74 = d
This d is 32.6744
If we average up the three d's, that gives us 32.525. D must be a whole number, so it is either 32 or 33.
Now, as a frame of reference for hot D works, characters that are combo'd easily have a lower d, as this affords them less frames of hitstun. Characters that are floaty have a higher D so that they stay in hitstun longer. This is done so that floaty characters aren't impossible to combo. D is a value between 32 and 36, inclusive. FFers are usually given 32 or 33, and floaties like jiggs are given 35 or 36.
However, Luigi, a floaty character, which therefore makes him hard to combo by the nature of his physics, who has a high priority combo breaker, combo starter, and killer that comes out on frame 3 has a constant of either 32 or 33, which is reseved for easily comboed characters. Yet Luigi, already resilient to combos, has been made even more resilient to them, when it is unneeded as he has a move in his arsenal designed to break strings. Therefore, luigi's hitstun is broken.
Q.E.D.
Luigi's up b on another luigi has a launch speed of 4880 at 25%, 4925 at 26%, and 4970 at 27%. The luigi is in hitstun for 73 frames at 25%, and 74 at 26 and 27%.
Using the formula h = m * l / d
where h is hitstun in frames
m is the hitstun constant (0.4865)
and l is launch speed as the gm gives it.
hen the three formulas look like this
73 = 0.4865 * 4880 / d
74 = 0.4865 * 4925 / d
74 = 0.4865 * 4970 / d
To solve for d, which is luigi's hitstun constant, we divide (m * l) by h, giving us
(m * l) / h = d
Thus
(0.4865 * 4880) / 73 = d
This d is 32.5222
(0.4865 * 4925) / 74 = d
This d is 32.3785
(0.4865 * 4970) / 74 = d
This d is 32.6744
If we average up the three d's, that gives us 32.525. D must be a whole number, so it is either 32 or 33.
Now, as a frame of reference for hot D works, characters that are combo'd easily have a lower d, as this affords them less frames of hitstun. Characters that are floaty have a higher D so that they stay in hitstun longer. This is done so that floaty characters aren't impossible to combo. D is a value between 32 and 36, inclusive. FFers are usually given 32 or 33, and floaties like jiggs are given 35 or 36.
However, Luigi, a floaty character, which therefore makes him hard to combo by the nature of his physics, who has a high priority combo breaker, combo starter, and killer that comes out on frame 3 has a constant of either 32 or 33, which is reseved for easily comboed characters. Yet Luigi, already resilient to combos, has been made even more resilient to them, when it is unneeded as he has a move in his arsenal designed to break strings. Therefore, luigi's hitstun is broken.
Q.E.D.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Brilliant analysis Kaiser.
Can we get some sort of modifier giving Luigi an extra 10% of his regular hitstun?
Can we get some sort of modifier giving Luigi an extra 10% of his regular hitstun?
Magus420
Smash Master
A lower d value means more hitstun. >.>
Fox's is 36. By dividing by a larger number you get less stun. I think you were expecting the results to prove it's broken so much that you didn't really stop to actually take a decent look at it, lol.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
Wait....I think I got this backwards.
Floaty characters are given a lower number to increase hitstun, and vice versa.
So i was wrong, lol.
EDIT: and I've been ninja'd. Give me a break, it's almost 3 in the morning, and logic is beginning to fail me now. I forgot that if the denominator is smaller, the end result is larger.
Although, this does bring up an odd case with G&W. At 20%, him being hit by Luigi up-b gives him 79 frames hitstun, with a launch speed of 4963. That means that his constant is 30.56, which may be 31, making him fall outside the 32-36 range.
We seriously need a character specific hitstun code. -_-
Floaty characters are given a lower number to increase hitstun, and vice versa.
So i was wrong, lol.
EDIT: and I've been ninja'd. Give me a break, it's almost 3 in the morning, and logic is beginning to fail me now. I forgot that if the denominator is smaller, the end result is larger.
Although, this does bring up an odd case with G&W. At 20%, him being hit by Luigi up-b gives him 79 frames hitstun, with a launch speed of 4963. That means that his constant is 30.56, which may be 31, making him fall outside the 32-36 range.
We seriously need a character specific hitstun code. -_-
Magus420
Smash Master
3am johns are legit. Thanks for taking the time to do that btw =D
So somehow Luigi still has borked hitstun.
Character specific hitstun? >_>
Character specific hitstun? >_>
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
I would say that Luigi's hitstun is fine, and that he is simply hard to combo, but I just did G&W, and I think his hitstun constant is 32, and he is easy to combo.
Character specific hitstun would solve all of this. It'd also fix Captain Falcon. =/
Character specific hitstun would solve all of this. It'd also fix Captain Falcon. =/
Veril
Frame Savant
The combo actually does work on Ganon. The timing is just really strict at lower % and 100+%. If timed right its a true combo up to 200+%. I decided 150% was too low since a few characters can be combo past 150 but not past 200. As it is nearly every character can be comboed up to 200+% with d-throw to up-b without DI. Luigi, for example, escapes at above 163%. Bowser is weird, since he's actually only affected into the low 20s.
With DI there's a window for which this combo is inescapable, but it decreases in size enough such that I definitely do not feel that this combo is broken at all anymore.
Is there actually gonna be a guide for Luigi? Cause uh... he's really cool.
More easy to combo? Looking at the % ranges he's susceptible to certain combos, I don't think that's actually true.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
Yeah, I was hoping someone would write a guide, I would but I don't have enough human v. human experience with him.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
@Veril: Well, looking at your combo thread for jiggs, they are apparently in the same boat. Hmm, for some reason it doesn't feel that way, though.
Still, Luigi's nair is an incredibly good string breaker, as well as a killer and combo starter. I simply think it shouldn't be all of these things. Either have is come out slower by 2 or 3 frames, or nerf it in power. I'd prefer the first one, as it would preserve nair's oribinal function without it being a combo breaker.
Still, Luigi's nair is an incredibly good string breaker, as well as a killer and combo starter. I simply think it shouldn't be all of these things. Either have is come out slower by 2 or 3 frames, or nerf it in power. I'd prefer the first one, as it would preserve nair's oribinal function without it being a combo breaker.
onecrazycanadian
Smash Cadet
i could a vid up on some of his tricks but i got nothing vs humans