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Lucas, Roy, Ryu (1.0.8) Community Patch Notes

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DungeonMaster

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Unfortunately, I don't really see sheik or rosalina getting nerfed in the ways that really matter. A big part of the way the balancing people choose what to change seems to be what the intended design was, and both of those characters do seem to function according to that. With that said, I could be totally wrong about that, or the balance team could have more emphasis on actual balance than I think.
Sheik and Rosalina are designed to be fundamentally very strong, and I just don't see any characters getting so drastically changed.
But it's not impossible.
You might unfortunately be right. The tool tips I feel are most representative of rather profound stupidity in design.
"Samus Charge Shot - This is devastating when fully charged. It can be unleashed instantly if you fire it while airborne."
This is totally wrong, it's 16 frames, as slow as d-air whether on the ground or in the air.
Sheik needles are frame 11, completely un-reactable by human reflexes.
It's absurd really, there's no ambiguity here, it's black and white wrong and stupid. I often wonder why I keep playing this game when I read and see crap like that built into the game - and it doesn't get changed after several patches. Really this patch frustrated the hell out of me. These things can totally be fixed.
 
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A_Kae

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You might unfortunately be right. The tool tips I feel are most representative of rather profound stupidity in design.
"Samus Charge Shot - This is devastating when fully charged. It can be unleashed instantly if you fire it while airborne.
This is totally wrong, it's 16 frames, as slow as d-air whether on the ground or in the air.
Sheik needles are frame 11, completely un-reactable by human reflexes.
It's absurd really, there's no ambiguity here, it's black and white wrong and stupid. I often wonder why I keep playing this game when I read and see crap like that built into the game - and it doesn't get changed after several patches. Really this patch frustrated the hell out of me.
To be fair, sheik's needles do have some travel time. Not much, but it might be enough to react with a shield if you're far enough away.

As for samus, I'm thinking that she'll get buffs at some point, (next patch maybe?) because she's one of the few characters that you can absolutely say is still bad and really needs improvement to actually work, and I think the balance team will be able to see that and know that samus is in the spot of needing buffs. Zelda as well.

On the other hand, the bit I said about sheik and rosalina might very well apply to samus as well. In which case she's just meant to be like that, and it's not just some kind of oversight. I hope that's not the case though.
 
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A_Kae

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The gap for high tiers in this game is no where near as bad as Melee or, god forbid, Brawl.
And it's shrinking with every patch. Now if only Sheik got some nerfs and samus+zelda got some buffs. Those are really the standouts in the tier list, and are the characters that need changes the most.
 

LordWilliam1234

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Sorry for not posting more stuff, kinda got caught up in other things. Anyways, here's more confirmations:

Duck Hunt: N-air landing lag reduced, from 22 -> 17



Charizard: Able to act out of D-throw 8 frames faster; 72 total frames, down from 80 (93 frames down from 101 if you include hit-freeze)



Villager:

Grab total frames reduced, from 57 -> 55



Dash Grab total frames reduced, from 71 -> 69



Pivot Grab total frames reduced, from 65 -> 64



Looks like the start-up got a frame slower while the recovery got two frames faster (hence only 1 frame total difference), but I'll need to double check that.

EDIT: Start-up animation on his pivot grab may be 1 frame slower, but the start-up is still 15 frames.

Will be checking through Falco's frame data next to confirm his changes, followed by Zelda.
 
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Mr.ケイ

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I believe the patches are leading to a more balanced game, overall.
When I look at the grab changes Link got this patch, and I compare to Samus' grab, I frankly think Sakurai hates Samus. It just doesn't make any rational sense. Ness absorber now has zero cooldown. He's willing to shave 10 frames off ninja's f-tilt but keep Samu's grab startup at 16 frames and the cooldown at nearly 1.5 seconds. Insane.

I am personally not happy at all with the patches, despite it getting closer to balanced overall.
Remember back at the Smash invitational last year? Sakurai started that Samus was the best character among the existing roster. He probably still thinks Samus is as good as he thinks, and refuses to buff her as drastically as he has other characters.

I'm just as pissed about his design choices for Samus as I am his design choice for Marth's D-air (only spiking at the tip of frame 11, and has a weaker spike than Diddy's). Samus attacks falls into that awkward realm of, not being fast enough as to provide good combo potential, or not being strong enough to be a good quick kill options. All of her attacks are middle strength and speed, which results in her having the worst attacks in the game.

But in the end, this patch did fix most of the balancing problems with some of the characters. And this is not the last patch we will see, so maybe Sakurai will finally realize that Samus is indeed bottom tier and fix her.
 

Omega Tyrant

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Sorry for not posting more stuff, kinda got caught up in other things. Anyways, here's more confirmations:

Duck Hunt: N-air landing lag reduced, from 22 -> 17



Charizard: Able to act out of D-throw 8 frames faster



Villager:

Grab total frames reduced, from 57 -> 55



Dash Grab total frames reduced, from 71 -> 69



Pivot Grab total frames reduced, from 65 -> 64



Looks like the start-up got a frame slower while the recovery got two frames faster (hence only 1 frame total difference), but I'll need to double check that.

EDIT: Start-up animation on his pivot grab may be 1 frame slower, but the start-up is still 15 frames.

Will be checking through Falco's frame data next to confirm his changes, followed by Zelda.
How much frames total is Charizard's down throw?
 

Mr.ケイ

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I suspect Marth's Fair got a 3 fame reduction to auto canceling. According to the Kurogane Hammer smash 4 database Marth and Roy share identical auto canceling frames on all aerials, except for Fair (since the info on Marth is still pre-1.0.8 patch). I assume to keep their auto cancel frames the same Marth was given this change. Roy's fair auto cancels on frame 33.
Here are the links
Marth (version 1.0.7 info)
http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth
Roy (version 1.0.8, obviously)
http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Roy
 

A_Kae

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I suspect Marth's Fair got a 3 fame reduction to auto canceling. According to the Kurogane Hammer smash 4 database Marth and Roy share identical auto canceling frames on all aerials, except for Fair (since the info on Marth is still pre-1.0.8 patch). I assume to keep their auto cancel frames the same Marth was given this change. Roy's fair auto cancels on frame 33.
Here are the links
Marth (version 1.0.7 info)
http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth
Roy (version 1.0.8, obviously)
http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Roy
Autocancel windows should be listed in the data dump earlier in this thread, and Marth doesn't have any changes to autocancels listed there.
 

LordWilliam1234

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How much frames total is Charizard's down throw?
72 frames, down from 80 (93 frames down from 101 if you include hit-freeze). I was having trouble frame counting it to exclude hit-freeze due to the more subtle animation changes.

Updated my post accordingly.
 

Vipermoon

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I suspect Marth's Fair got a 3 fame reduction to auto canceling. According to the Kurogane Hammer smash 4 database Marth and Roy share identical auto canceling frames on all aerials, except for Fair (since the info on Marth is still pre-1.0.8 patch). I assume to keep their auto cancel frames the same Marth was given this change. Roy's fair auto cancels on frame 33.
Here are the links
Marth (version 1.0.7 info)
http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth
Roy (version 1.0.8, obviously)
http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Roy
That would have been the first thing I noticed if it were true.

But I saw what you saw and I can't believe Fair doesn't match this little pattern they created.
 
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Fatmanonice

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Remember back at the Smash invitational last year? Sakurai started that Samus was the best character among the existing roster. He probably still thinks Samus is as good as he thinks, and refuses to buff her as drastically as he has other characters.

I'm just as pissed about his design choices for Samus as I am his design choice for Marth's D-air (only spiking at the tip of frame 11, and has a weaker spike than Diddy's). Samus attacks falls into that awkward realm of, not being fast enough as to provide good combo potential, or not being strong enough to be a good quick kill options. All of her attacks are middle strength and speed, which results in her having the worst attacks in the game.

But in the end, this patch did fix most of the balancing problems with some of the characters. And this is not the last patch we will see, so maybe Sakurai will finally realize that Samus is indeed bottom tier and fix her.
From the way Sakurai has talked, the thing they primarily look at when it comes to balance is win and loss records on 1 on 1 For Glory and I think this has screwed over some characters so far. I've seen that people like to joke about "unicorns" on 1 on 1 For Glory and these unicorns are the ones that I've noticed have largely been ignored for buffs. :4bowserjr::4dedede::4drmario::4gaw::4jigglypuff::4palutena::4robinm::4samus::4wiifit: are all characters that you rarely see and, when you do, they are typically better than your average player, leading to skewed results that go back to Sakurai. This gives the team the impression that they're a lot better than they actually are. Some underwhelming characters like :4charizard::4falco::4myfriends::4lucina::4marth::4metaknight::4shulk: have gotten huge boosts because they're still popular characters that everyone from pros to 5 year old button mashers have picked up. When people are almost unanimously bad with "bad" popular characters, that sends back a clear message but when good players are good with "bad" unpopular characters, it makes it seem like they're fairly balanced.
 

LordWilliam1234

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Went through Falco's data, here are the frame changes I got:

Can cancel from jab 2 into rapid 1 frame earlier (rapid starts on frame 10 of jab 2 in 1.06, frame 9 in 1.08)

2nd hit of U-smash hits one frame earlier: 14 -> 13



F-air landing lag reduced, from 32 -> 25



F-air start-up reduced, from 12 -> 10.

F-air hitboxes redistributed, from 12/18/24/30/35 -> 10/14/18/22/26/28.



F-air IASA moved back by 7 frames. (It's technically 9 but this is taking the start-up reduction into account)



F-air landing hitbox self hit-lag reduced by 1 frame, 13 -> 12



Can confirm that U-air's start-up was reduced, 10 -> 7

U-air's hit-lag and block-freeze reduced by 1 frame, 9 -> 8. Blockstun reduced by 1 frame, 5 -> 4.

Falco Phantasm start-up increased by 1 frame: 18 -> 19. Total frames remain the same.



Falco Phase (Side-B 2) IASA frames in the air moved back by 2 frames, 67 -> 65 (this one may have been an error on my part when originally recording 1.06 though)

I'll be putting gifs together, but with all of this stuff...it's gonna take a while.
 
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Vipermoon

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Just incase anyone is wondering, the fast forwarding they did to Falco's Fair and Uair also brings the autocancel windows lower.
 
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Ffamran

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Went through Falco's data, here are the frame changes I got:

Can cancel from jab 2 into rapid 1 frame earlier (rapid starts on frame 10 of jab 2 in 1.06, frame 9 in 1.08)
Cool, that goes with Falco's jab 2 entry in Thinkaman's data dump.

F-air landing lag reduced, from 32 -> 25
That goes with A2ZOMG's surprisingly accurate landing lag guess.

2nd hit of U-smash hits one frame earlier: 14 -> 13
It's one frame off of what Thinkaman's data dump said, but whatever I guess. Thinkaman's data dump said this.
Code:
Falco

-----

Usmash
    ID and GID tweaks to hitboxes
    final hitboxes last frames 13-20 -> 12-21
F-air start-up reduced, from 12 -> 10.

F-air hitboxes redistributed, from 12/18/24/30/35 -> 10/14/18/22/26/28.
Startup goes with A2's testing and Thinkaman's data dump, but the hit frames I got from Thinkaman's data dump as the hitboxes including the last hit refreshes after 4 frames instead of 6 now were 10/14/18/22/26/30.

F-air IASA moved back by 6 frames. (It's technically 8 but this is taking the start-up reduction into account)

F-air landing hitbox self hit-lag reduced by 1 frame, 13 -> 12
Huh? So is Falco's total frames for Fair 50 instead of 58 now? Problem with not having IASA data on any of Falco's moves, but only total frames.

Can confirm that U-air's start-up was reduced, 10 -> 7

U-air's hit-lag and block-freeze reduced by 1 frame, 9 -> 8. Blockstun reduced by 1 frame, 5 -> 4.
Cool, that goes with A2's testing and maybe GimR's unless A2 told GimR and GimR just told others what he knew.

Falco Phantasm start-up increased by 1 frame: 18 -> 19. Total frames remain the same.
The problem with this is the startup data was from sixriver, the Japanese frame data compilation which is where Falco's Blaster data also came from. In other words, there was no strict data mined startup for Falco Phantasm as far as I'm aware as Dantarion's data dump never had startup for Falco Phantasm. It might not have changed at all and the sixriver data was just off by 1 frame.

Falco Phase (Side-B 2) IASA frames in the air moved back by 2 frames, 67 -> 65 (this one may have been an error on my part when originally recording 1.06 though)
The issue with this is that we never got any frame data for most of Falco Phantasm and almost everything on Falco Phase. Dantarion's data dump only had stuff for Falco Charge. I don't even know the startup for Falco Phase, Distant Fire Bird, Fast Fire Bird, Burst Blaster, and Explosive Blaster as Dantarion's data dump never had them and nobody bothered to test them which also leads to not knowing the total frames and IASA frames. Well, I guess Falco Phase has IASA data now, but does this also apply to grounded Falco Phase?

I'll be putting gifs together, but with all of this stuff...it's gonna take a while.
Thanks, but one more question: was nothing changed to Falco's Dair landing lag?
 

Vipermoon

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@ LordWilliam1234 LordWilliam1234 Yeah just checked your google docs, you have Falco's Dair at 23 frames of landing lag. Did you have it at 26 before? I never noticed this lag decrease.
 

Lavani

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Falco's dair has always been 23 frames of landing lag, the data in that japanese landing lag table was off.
 

LordWilliam1234

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Falco's f-air IASA was on frame 59 in 1.06. It's now frame 50 in 1.08.

Falco Phantasm was 18 frame start-up, 60 frames total in 1.06. It's 19 frame start-up, 60 frames total in 1.08. The animation is exactly the same, the hitbox just appears one frame later now for some reason according to my frame counting.

Grounded Falco Phase is the same between 1.06 and 1.08.

And yeah, Falco's d-air is the same between 1.06 and 1.08, at 23 frames of landing lag.
 
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LancerStaff

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Remember back at the Smash invitational last year? Sakurai started that Samus was the best character among the existing roster. He probably still thinks Samus is as good as he thinks, and refuses to buff her as drastically as he has other characters.

I'm just as pissed about his design choices for Samus as I am his design choice for Marth's D-air (only spiking at the tip of frame 11, and has a weaker spike than Diddy's). Samus attacks falls into that awkward realm of, not being fast enough as to provide good combo potential, or not being strong enough to be a good quick kill options. All of her attacks are middle strength and speed, which results in her having the worst attacks in the game.

But in the end, this patch did fix most of the balancing problems with some of the characters. And this is not the last patch we will see, so maybe Sakurai will finally realize that Samus is indeed bottom tier and fix her.
Sakurai. Doesn't. Prioritize. 1v1s. At. All. Samus is bad in 1v1s because she's good in FFAs. Sakurai said Samus was considered the best, but didn't say if it was for 1v1s or FFA, and that was in the then current build and not the demo. At least get the facts straight before you start blaming someone.
 

Vipermoon

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Falco Phantasm was 18 frame start-up, 60 frames total in 1.06. It's 19 frame start-up, 60 frames total in 1.08. The animation is exactly the same, the hitbox just appears one frame later now for some reason according to my frame counting.
This could mean there is also a hitbox one frame later in the animation to help take care of that stupid empty spot at the end of phantasm.
 

po pimpus

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You guys just want Brawl Sonic back.. smh (so much hate)

His USmash was already slow enough to justify its power, but, yeah, the BS just never ends for us Sonic mains. Pretty sure we'll see some *****ing about his FSmash next.
All the top tiers in this game suck since the 1.0.4-1.06 nerfs.

It's sad how low the power level of smash 4 characters is compared to previous games.
Attention, Diddy and Sonic mains crying about nerfs:



Sonic mains- Please hush. Your character is fine. Up Smash kills a whopping 10% later. Do two more jabs and shut up.

Diddy mains- Please sit all the way down over there and learn how to use your character's other moves... ZeRo does just fine. Follow his example and step your game up.

Sheik mains- YOU'RE NEXT.
 
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Ffamran

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This could mean there is also a hitbox one frame later in the animation to help take care of that stupid empty spot at the end of phantasm.
Nope, I actually think it made it even more FUBAR'd as recent matches I've watched with two different players had Falco phase past Jigglypuff close to the beginning of the move. At this rate, Falco Phantasm is going to have a tiny sweet-spot somewhere in the middle and be even harder to use than Rest, Marth's tippers, Ganondorf's Utilt, and Zelda's Din's Fire. I seriously have no idea how to you can **** up this move when another one functions perfectly fine... Actually, make that 3, Fox's Fox Illusion and Wolf Flash and Ike's Close Combat, but somehow, Falco's Falco Phantasm's hitbox is getting worse with no real explanation as to why it doesn't hit for the entire distance. Then again, Zelda exists, so there's that.

Edit: Nah, it just clanked, but it's still a stupid move. :p

Falco's f-air IASA was on frame 59 in 1.06. It's now frame 50 in 1.08.
This would mean Falco's Fair total frames would be 49; pre-patch the total frames was 58. Is IASA usually just 1 frame after total frames?
 
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A_Kae

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Nope, I actually think it made it even more FUBAR'd as recent matches I've watched with two different players had Falco phase past Jigglypuff close to the beginning of the move. At this rate, Falco Phantasm is going to have a tiny sweet-spot somewhere in the middle and be even harder to use than Rest, Marth's tippers, Ganondorf's Utilt, and Zelda's Din's Fire. I seriously have no idea how to you can **** up this move when another one functions perfectly fine... Actually, make that 3, Fox's Fox Illusion and Wolf Flash and Ike's Close Combat, but somehow, Falco's Falco Phantasm's hitbox is getting worse with no real explanation as to why it doesn't hit for the entire distance. Then again, Zelda exists, so there's that.


This would mean Falco's Fair total frames would be 49; pre-patch the total frames was 58. Is IASA usually just 1 frame after total frames?
Marth's tippers aren't anywhere near that hard to use. And neither is rest for that matter
 
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Sinister Slush

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Even if Diddy and Sonic nerfed, there's still a lot of better top tiers that're untouched in this patch.
Sheik Luigi ZSS Pikachu Fox
.


..


...

Roy
 

Vipermoon

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@ Ffamran Ffamran First of all: lol
Wasn't FAF one frame after while IASA was the last frame (aka 1 frame before faf)?

Which reminds me, @ LordWilliam1234 LordWilliam1234 , (I'll use Marth as an example since I know him better), his Fair, Bair, Uair, Nair, and Dair are supposed to be 37, 39, 45, 49, and 59 total frames/IASA. But you consistently have 1 frame more. I notice this for other characters too. Usually it's on the aerials but sometimes other moves. What makes it different?
 
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Lavani

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FAF/IASA are both the first frame you can act after performing the move, which by definition makes them total+1.
 

LordWilliam1234

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Which reminds me, @ LordWilliam1234 LordWilliam1234 , (I'll use Marth as an example since I know him better), his Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair, and Dair are supposed to be 37, 39, 45, 49, and 59 total frames/IASA. But you consistently have 1 frame more. I notice this for other characters too. Usually it's on the aerials but sometimes other moves. What makes it different?
IASA on air attacks in my frame data sheet is the first frame that you're able to act. Total frames would just be that number -1. That's just how I ended up writing it in, though I can change it if others would prefer it the other way.
 

Vipermoon

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FAF/IASA are both the first frame you can act after performing the move, which by definition makes them total+1.
You sure about that? Why have two terms mean the same thing? More importantly, why have to subtract 1 everytime you are given a number? That last question makes me believe that one of the terms would need to describe the last frame and Interruptible As Soon As sounds like it does that. While the words First Actionable Frame looks to be a +1.
@ Shaya Shaya ?

IASA on air attacks in my frame data sheet is the first frame that you're able to act. Total frames would just be that number -1. That's just how I ended up writing it in, though I can change it if others would prefer it the other way.
If you're up to it. I personally don't have an issue as long as I know they are +1.
 
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Ffamran

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FAF/IASA are both the first frame you can act after performing the move, which by definition makes them total+1.
Wait, then what's with certain moves that can be acted out of before the animation ends? Fox's Blaster apparently has an IASA of 33, but the total frames is 42 according to the sixriver data.
 

A_Kae

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You sure about that? Why have two terms mean the same thing? More importantly, why have to subtract 1 everytime you are given a number? That last question makes me believe that one of the terms would need to describe the last frame and Interruptible As Soon As sounds like it does that. While the words First Actionable Frame looks to be a +1.
@ Shaya Shaya ?



If you're up to it. I'm personally don't have an issue as long as I know they are +1.
For what it's worth, I've always interpreted IASA as the last frame of a move, and FAF as the first frame that a new action starts.
 
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LordWilliam1234

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Wait, then what's with certain moves that can be acted out of before the animation ends? Fox's Blaster apparently has an IASA of 33, but the total frames is 42 according to the sixriver data.
I imagine in that case the IASA is the first frame you can act (not including rapid firing the blaster), the total frames is how long the entire animation lasts even though you can act early.
 

KuroganeHammer

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IASA stands for interruptible as soon as (the first frame you can interrupt a move with another action). The term isn't valid anymore because not all moves have IASA frames, so some people use FAF instead.
 

Ffamran

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These freaking terms... Also still stand by that the last hit of Falco's Fair comes out at 30 and not 28.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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From the way Sakurai has talked, the thing they primarily look at when it comes to balance is win and loss records on 1 on 1 For Glory and I think this has screwed over some characters so far. I've seen that people like to joke about "unicorns" on 1 on 1 For Glory and these unicorns are the ones that I've noticed have largely been ignored for buffs. :4bowserjr::4dedede::4drmario::4gaw::4jigglypuff::4palutena::4robinm::4samus::4wiifit: are all characters that you rarely see and, when you do, they are typically better than your average player, leading to skewed results that go back to Sakurai. This gives the team the impression that they're a lot better than they actually are. Some underwhelming characters like :4charizard::4falco::4myfriends::4lucina::4marth::4metaknight::4shulk: have gotten huge boosts because they're still popular characters that everyone from pros to 5 year old button mashers have picked up. When people are almost unanimously bad with "bad" popular characters, that sends back a clear message but when good players are good with "bad" unpopular characters, it makes it seem like they're fairly balanced.
So...one of the best ways to call attention to a subpar character is to use them a bunch online and underperform?
 

Balgorxz

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jigglypuff will be ignored for ever because all of the jiggs players are at least decent, I have never seen a bad one.
since jiggs skills transfer from one game to another since her playstyle barely changes on the air I can see her being unchanged in the future.
 

LordWilliam1234

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Nov 26, 2014
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Also still stand by that the last hit of Falco's Fair comes out at 30 and not 28.
It's frame 28. All of the hits of his f-air have a 4 frame gap now, EXCEPT the last one, which is only 2 frames.

Here's a gif with the hit-lag frames cut out and the frames the move hits on highlighted in a red border (also show the damage counter so you can see the numbers change per hit):



You can see that the gap between the 5th and 6th hit is half that of the others.
 
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DungeonMaster

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Sakurai. Doesn't. Prioritize. 1v1s. At. All. Samus is bad in 1v1s because she's good in FFAs. Sakurai said Samus was considered the best, but didn't say if it was for 1v1s or FFA, and that was in the then current build and not the demo. At least get the facts straight before you start blaming someone.
It's almost but not quite off-topic but that cannot be true what you say LancerStaff. You do not nerf Sheik's b-air or diddy kong's d-throw combos because they work exceptionally well in FFAs. In fact virtually none of these changes in this patch or the last have any noticeable impact whatsoever on FFAs. Likewise Samus has absolutely no specific advantage in FFAs - which I play a fair bit of - compared to many of the other characters in this game. Samus does not suddenly acquire a new level of priority in her attacks because there's more than one person on the screen, in fact you're more likely to try something and get bounced and juggled like a rag doll if a pack of swords and other disjoints are flying around the screen. Homing missiles continue to be one of the worst moves in the game and you're not suddenly able to shield grab people better. When the %s are constantly changing landing the narrow window big 50+ damage combos Samus is capable goes to the wayside in a hurry. There are more - not less - reflectors in for-fun, everything from pokemon to standard items. Shield breaks become almost irrelevant. There are NO power ups to the kill projectile - Charge Shot remains 25% damage and same knockback if you get a super-mushroom or any other bonus effect.
I honestly believe he has a mental block with this character and I view his declaration at the demo as nothing short of trolling. Because you cannot, legitimately, sit down and code a 16 frame startup 94 frame total grab into a game of paper/rock/scissors shield/attack/grab and then in the same breath allow up-B out of shield to clank, and the jab1->2 only work at high percents. The tool tip blurb about the charge shot coming out "instantly in the air" at 16 frames is just a bit rich too.
The current patch, is again, trolling. 300+ hours I've put into the character right now and I feel trolled. Literally. Thank you for your pittance few frames on my grab game Mr. Sakurai, great job.
 
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