Lucas, Roy, Ryu (1.0.8) Community Patch Notes

[Kofu]

If they were hitbox changes like that, I'd recognize them and they wouldn't be regarded as unknown.

Fair enough. I trust you, I was just surprised that there was nothing under UTilt.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If this roll frame data is accurate, and the old values on landing lag from the Japanese also are true, I can confirm that Falco's F-air does indeed have reduced landing lag.

I don't have strong enough recording devices to prove by exactly how much though. Educated guess would be that Falco's F-air currently has about 25 frames of landing lag (so 7 frames less than previous iterations).

Testing method: Training Mode frame advance 1/4 speed. Compared animations of Ike's rolls to Falco's landing animation. I actually inputted the roll from Ike barely before Falco touched the ground, and Falco shielded first.

 

[Vipermoon]

Thinkaman's changes don't show any real differences in dancing blade either (just the third strike having a different trajectory), although we know it combos better/more reliably (db2 into air dodge or shield being usually possible for a lot of the cast no longer being the case). We have video footage that G&W's up tilt acts out differently too.

"Magic" happened, maybe there is some random bit change somewhere. Alternatively hitboxes had some engine adjustments, probably something to do with the angle reflection of a hurtbox and hitbox.

Yeah I always knew it was pretty much forward-3 sending them, well, forward for a change... but you're right that there are a couple properties that changes to DB3 don't have anything to do with.

 

[Luigi player]

Facing right--it's ordinary math/trig polar conventions.

Alright, that's what I was assuming...

But then there has to be an error there:

Dr. Mario
---------
Usmash
all hitboxes
angle 110 -> 130

It's angle should be different since he hits opponents in front of him now.. especially if it's "all hitboxes", so there can't be ones connecting into others who'll send at a different trajectory.

 

[Thinkaman]

Alright, that's what I was assuming...

But then there has to be an error there:

It's angle should be different since he hits opponents in front of him now.. especially if it's "all hitboxes", so there can't be ones connecting into others who'll send at a different trajectory.

No? Dr. Mario's usmash hits opponents inward; hitting an opponent normally, who is standing in front of Dr. Mario, they are sent flying behind Doc.

 

[TriTails]

Doc's U-smash is like Luigi's. Front hit sends them backward, back hit sends them forward.

I think what Luigi player meant is that it's impossible for each hitboxes to have the same angle tweak because if that were the case (All hitboxes are 130 angle), then every hits would send people at the same direction, while that isn't the case since we know Doc's back and front hit have different trajectories, so there must be two angle tweaks since both hits sends people upward pre-patch (1.0.4).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Doc's U-smash is like Luigi's. Front hit sends them backward, back hit sends them forward.

I think what Luigi player meant is that it's impossible for each hitboxes to have the same angle tweak because if that were the case (All hitboxes are 130 angle), then every hits would send people at the same direction, while that isn't the case since we know Doc's back and front hit have different trajectories, so there must be two angle tweaks since both hits sends people upward pre-patch (1.0.4).

@ Luigi player You've heard of Special Offensive Collisions right? Doc's U-smash isn't one.

The direction an attack sends someone by default depends on the position of the hitbox relative to the "body cursor". Doc's U-smash doesn't need two separate angles to do this.

There are some attacks like Falcon's knee, Falco's reworked N-air, and several B-airs in this game which ONLY send a character in the direction a character is (not) facing regardless of which side the hitbox is on relative to the body cursor. You can't do reverse Knees in this game like in Melee, for instance. These moves use Special Offensive Collisions to accomplish this.

 

[Luigi player]

Oh, yeah... somehow I only thought about the hit behind him, sorry my bad.

 

[Vipermoon]

@ Shaya

• Transition frame reduced 21 → 17 (M) / 18 (L)

I thought it was common knowledge the transition frame was 20 like it was in previous games?

 

[herpyderpherper]

The AI seems to of been buffed to where different charecters play how their supposed to play, an example is a level 9 little mac did jab 1 to KO punch, the zelda also was able to stuff my approches some of the times, usually with ftilt

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Alright, more frame changes. All changes found by @ Zapp Branniglenn (or otherwise noted earlier in the thread), with myself doing the frame counting and gifs (thanks to him for providing some of the footage I was missing for 1.06).

Link's F-throw total frames reduced, from 39 -> 34.

Diddy's Grab total frames increased, from 28 -> 31.

Diddy's dash grab total frames increased, from 35 -> 38.

Diddy's pivot grab total frames increased, from 33 -> 36.

Samus' grab total frames reduced, from 79 -> 75.

Samus' pivot grab total frames reduced, from 92 -> 88.

Samus' dash grab is unchanged.

Still have more to go through, then I'll check through Falco's frame data for the exact frames on his changes.

 

[AnchorTea]

@ Shaya Villager's One-Chop Tech has been removed. It has been removed ever since the Mewtwo patch, and it's still removed in this patch. You forgot to add it in the Mewtwo patch notes. Most likely because you weren't aware of it. (No offence)

Proof: http://smashboards.com/threads/villager-v1-0-7-patch-notes.399012/ and http://smashboards.com/threads/villager-in-the-1-0-8-update.406200/#post-19421383

 

[LRodC]

Can someone confirm if Villager has less end lag on grab? I heard it from others but wasn't sure if it was confirmed.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Due to an embarassing unfortunate mishap, I no longer have the 1.07 update, and I wasn't finished grabbing pre-patch footage for the moves I found to have reduced lag. I cannot produce video evidence for Villager's Dthrow, Mii Swordsmans moves (jabs, Ftilt, Dash attack, Dsmash, and Fair landiing lag), and Mii gunner's Absorbing Vortex (Down B 3). They're still easily observed as different if you have pre-patch and post-patch side by side. But, we can't frame count the difference, unless somebody previously frame counted those moves before (and such a source must be trustworthy). I'm truly sorry.

Were all tether grabs buffed to have less end lag? Haven't heard anything about Zero Suit's or Toon Link's and I'm not sure if Villager's was buffed.

Only Link's, Villager's, and Samus. Toon Link and Zero Suit's were untouched.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Due to an embarassing unfortunate mishap, I no longer have the 1.07 update, and I wasn't finished grabbing pre-patch footage for the moves I found to have reduced lag. I'm truly sorry.

That's okay. We still love you. Thank you for what you were able to find up to that point!

 

[shadowmm151]

The AI seems to of been buffed to where different charecters play how their supposed to play, an example is a level 9 little mac did jab 1 to KO punch, the zelda also was able to stuff my approches some of the times, usually with ftilt

This!

The Lv. 9 computers have beyond shocked me on this update. I'm seeing zairs, throw combos, solid juggling, ledge trumps and F***ING DUNKS! Really? They're spiking?! Hell I even got ganoncided (although that may have just been me getting in the way...but still!). Oh, and of course they air dodge EVERYTHING and know EXACTLY when to counter. I almost lost today...that would have been scary.

 

[Vipermoon]

They still perfect shield everything. I laugh everytime I get perfect shield > Usmash out of P. Shield

 

[Eureka]

They still perfect shield everything. I laugh everytime I get perfect shield > Usmash out of P. Shield

Dem 1 frame reflexes. They thankfully still don't understand the concept of moves being unsafe on shield though. Otherwise us pathetic meat bags wouldn't stand a chance against the robot menace.

 

[Mr.ケイ]

This!

The Lv. 9 computers have beyond shocked me on this update. I'm seeing zairs, throw combos, solid juggling, ledge trumps and F***ING DUNKS! Really? They're spiking?! Hell I even got ganoncided (although that may have just been me getting in the way...but still!). Oh, and of course they air dodge EVERYTHING and know EXACTLY when to counter. I almost lost today...that would have been scary.

Then there is the case where the LV9 computer has you in a grab near the blast zone of a walk off (like in Delfino Plaza) and instead of Bthrow to get a guaranteed KO, they Fthrow you instead. Computer AI for the win.

 

[BltzZ]

Hello and welcome to our bi-monthly ****fest!
Please avoid posting things you cannot confirm with evidence. Placebo be damned.
Please double check to see if something you've posted hasn't already been done so. In the top right corner you are able to search specifically within THIS thread, try the character name and see what others have said (+what's been disconfirmed or otherwise)
REMEMBER that damage decreases or increases nearly linearly affects knock back and hit stun. No need to say "this move kills earlier or later" when we already are aware of damage changes. IF damages aren't changed and knock back is different (e.g. Sonic's back throw last patch) that should be noted.
For the most part, hitbox changes (size or angles) are hard to confirm without data backing and require hard evidence to be noted. Otherwise, hopefully we'll get a data dump some time soon #_#
Please be careful about comparing WiiU to 3DS with different versions, blast zones are different even on shared stages and other visual ques can be different. This means a move will kill at different percent in either version.

IF YOU ARE INSISTENT ON POSTING THINGS THAT ARE DUBIOUS AND DO NOT PRODUCE EVIDENCE YOU WILL BE INFRACTED AND/OR TEMPORARILY ROOM BANNED FROM THIS SECTION
Older thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/406196
DUMPED DATA CHANGE LISTS:
1.04 -> 1.06 http://smashboards.com/threads/406319/page-26#post-19465191
1.07 -> 1.08 http://smashboards.com/threads/406319/page-19#post-19454998

Global Changes

• Grounded to Air [l]edge transition mechanics altered, affecting run offs and other momentum techniques. Notable characters: Captain Falcon, Meta Knight, Zelda (Nayru's Love), Yoshi (Egg Toss)
• The height at which a defender will land on a platform during a throw's animation overlapping a platform has been increased, reducing the ability for this interaction to happen. Notable on Ganondorf's Flame Choke (can no longer force this on battlefield platforms against any character) or Mewtwo's Confusion.

Table listing is in order of when a character was originally added. Last is changed for when a character is updated. You can sort the table by provided values for your convenience.

Character | Last (PST) | Changes
Ike | 17th 19:30 |

• Forward Tilt
  • Start up: 15 → 12 frames
  • Damage reduced: 14% → 12.5%
• Dash Attack
  • Start up reduced 18 → 15 frames
  • Damage 10%/7%/5% → 14%/11%/9%
• Neutral Air Landing lag reduced 16 → 13 frames
• Forward Air
  • Hitboxes follow sword trail (hitting above and below him better)
  • Landing lag reduced 19 → 18 frames
• Quick Draw (Side-B + customs) Start up reduced 19 → 16 frames
• Jab
  • First hit transitions into Second hit 3 frames faster
  • Third hit hitboxes follow sword trail (hitting above him)
• Up Air Landing lag reduced 18 → 15
• Down Air Landing lag reduced 26 → 23 (? 22)
• (1.06) Counter (Down-B) Knockback growth increased 74 → 100

Zelda | 18th 23:02 |

• Up Smash
  • Knockback growth increased (approx killing 20% earlier)
  • Initial hitbox now has increased size and halved SDI multiplier
• Neutral Air
  • Damage on front hits 1% → 2%, Damage on back hits 2% → 1%
  • Landing lag reduced 22 > 19 frames
• Up Air Landing lag reduced 22 > 19 frames
• Down Air Landing lag reduced 21 > 18 frames

Greninja | 20th 18:00 |

• Forward Tilt
  • Damage altered 6.5% → 7.3%
  • Ending frame reduced 41 → 32

Mii Swordfighter | 21th 01:00 |

• Back Air Damage 12% → 14%
• Airborne Assault (Side-B) Displacement trajectory altered (lower than before)
• Jab, Forward Tilt, Down Smash, Forward air Ending/landing lag reduced

Meta Knight | 17th 19:30 |

• Forward Tilt
  • Final hit angle altered 65°→ ~40°
  • Ending frame/IASA reduced on each strike from 33/35/38 → 25/27/31 frames (?)
  • Damage on final hit 3% → 4%
• Neutral Air Landing lag reduced
• Jab
  • Damage increased 1% → 1.2%
  • Ending frame reduced approximately 12 frames

Charizard | 21th 01:00 |

• Up Throw Knock back increased significantly (comparable strength to Mewtwo without DI)
• Down Throw
  • Knock back reduced significantly (combo throw?)
  • Ending lag reduced
• Jab
  • Transition from First to Second strike 1 frame faster (now acts as a combo on more/most characters)
  • Jab One increased weight based knockback

Bowser | - |

• Up Tilt
  • Damage 10% → 9%
  • Start up 12 → 11 frames without animation changes (now hits low to the ground in front)
  • Ending 51 → 41 frames

Kirby | - |

• (1.06) Forward Smash Up angled sour spot damage reduced 13% → 12%

Villager | 21th 01:00 |

• Balloon Trip (Up-B) Fuel system mechanic (similar to ROB) now recharges noticeably slower, hurting consecutive usages
• Down Throw
• Damage 4.5% → 6%
• Grab Ending lag reduced (all of them?)

Ness | - |

• PSI Magnet (Down-B) Ending frame reduced (significantly?)

Falco | 16th 21:00 |

• Neutral Air
  • Total damage 12% → 11% (second hit damage 3% → 2%)
  • Hits now auto link
  • Final hit now forces front facing knockback
• Forward Air
  • Aerial Damage 8% → 9%
  • Landing Damage 5% → 3%
  • Start up reduced (?)
  • Landing lag reduced (?)
• Up Air
  • Damage 11% → 10%
  • Sour spot removed
  • Start up decreased 10 → 7 frames
• Down Air Sweet spot trajectory no longer meteors grounded opponents but sends upwards

Mr. Game & Watch | 20th 18:00 |

• Down Tilt Knockback increased
• Back Air Landing lag reduced 24 → 19

Lucina / Marth | 20th 18:00 |

• Jab One
  • Marth Damage reduced 4%/6% → 3%/5%
  • Transition frame reduced 21 → 17 (M) / 18 (L)
  • Angle altered from Sakurai Angle, more follow up prone
  • Ending frame increased from 26 → 28 frames (reversing 1.06)
• Jab 2
  • Total Frame Count increased from 26 → 28
• Up Tilt
  • Knock back increased
  • Ending frame reduced 42 → 39
  • Body hitbox angle now more vertical
  • Marth moves forward if actions taken at new IASA rather than original animation length
• Lucina Forward Tilt Damage increased by approx 1% (9.97% → 10.92%)
• Neutral Air Landing lag reduced 15 → 12 frames
• Dolphin Slash (Up-B) Knockback increased
• Lucina Counter activation now plays a quote

Rosalina and Luma | 19th 22:51 |

• Luma HP 47 → 50
• Rapid Jab End Knockback Growth Reduced 170 → 150

Lucario | - |

• Jab 1
  • KBG significantly decreased, now links into jab 2 more reliably
  • Now uses weight based knockback growth on Jab One and Two

Donkey Kong | - |

• Cargo Forward Toss
  • Damage increased 8% → 10%
  • Reduced endlag?
• Cargo Back Toss
  • Damage increased 8% → 12%
  • Launch angle increased
  • Reduced endlag?
• Cargo Up Toss Damage increased 7% → 10%
• Cargo Down Toss
  • Damage increased 6% → 7%
  • Now has a "mini hop" that allows DK to float in place while tossing
  • Endlag reduced?

Diddy Kong | 21st 01:00 |

• Up Air
  • Start up increased 3 → 4 frames without animation changes (no longer hits below him)
  • Auto cancel altered from 15 → 27 frames
  • Base/Growth 65/99 → 100/89
• Up Throw Damage reduced 8% → 5%
• Down Throw Damage increased 6% → 7%
• Down Tilt Damage reduced 6% → 5.5%
• Jab Transition between third strike and multihit is now faster Grabs Ending frames increased (on all three)

Captain Falcon | 15th 19:00 |

• Up Air Damage decreased 13% → 11%

Link | 21st 01:00 |

• Grab
  • Range increased noticeably
  • Regular grab ending reduced 66 → 61 frames
  • Dash grab ending reduced 77 → 65 frames
  • Pivot grab ending reduced 79 → 66 frames
• Down Tilt
  • Damage 12% → 11%
  • Start up decreased 13 → 11 frames, ending 31 → 28 frames
• Down Throw
  • Trajectory altered 110°→ 83°, growth 90 → 85
  • Damage 7% → 6%
• Up Smash Hitboxes rearranged positions and increased size hence more reliably comboing
• Forward Throw Ending lag reduced

Samus | 21th 01:00 |

• Up Smash
  • Knockback / kill power increased
  • 1.06 Hitbox sizes increased to help link better
• Grab Ending lag reduced (on all?)

Palutena | - |

• Up Tilt Damage on looping hitboxes increased 1% → 1.2%

Olimar | - |

• Pikmin Mechanics Order no longer reverses from ledge grabs (Bug Fix?)

Sonic | 17th 20:30 |

• Down Air Ending lag reduced (stage height off stage down airs no longer SD)
• Up Smash Knockback reduced (approx 10%~ later)

Robin | - |

• Wind Jab Automatic push back from multiple hits now pushes Robin off of edges

Peach | 18th 22:49 |

• Jab 2 Hitbox sizes increased

Wario | 18th 23:02 |

• Jab 1 Trajectory modified for both hitboxes, base knockback and knockback growth altered.
• Jab 2 Hitbox sizes increased, additional hitbox added.

Mewtwo | - |

• Neutral Air Landing lag reduced 19 → 16 frames

Mii Gunner | - |

• Absorbing Vortex (Down-B 3) Ending lag reduced significantly (?)

Duck Hunt | - |

• Neutral Air Landing lag reduced

[U]Blah[/U] | - | [LIST][*][B]Magic[/B] -[/LIST]

Hey how come you haven't updated the falco changes? Fair landing lag seems to be around 25 frames

 

[BCE]

since all data were minered, why dont lock this thread ?

 

[DJBoxy]

Any bowser jr changes?

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Ok not sure if this was mentioned in the last 10 pages but some of those Diddy changes are seriously noticeable buffs.

Obviously the up air change sucks. But to be honest that move was still pretty silly just because of the hitbox that could hit below Diddy while also covering his entire upper body. The animation is the same though, it just has less active frames, so you can still use the move for many of the same situations besides like SH up air approaches and free combo breaks at close range disadvantage. (lol)

D-tilt getting reduced damage makes it combo into more D-tilts and grab more easily. Edit: Wow d-tilt to jump cancel up-smash kill combo is very easy now.

Diddy now has a functioning jab, something that will allow him to keep his D-tilt, SH fair and other moves fresh longer for more damage on ALL of his other grounded options. I can't believe people aren't more excited that Diddy's jab isn't useless because it's most likely bugged anymore.

Up throw 8% to 5% is a MASSIVE buff. No longer do Diddy players have like a 6% window to true link up throw to up-air for the kill since up throw now sends the opponent a much shorter distance. I did some light testing was able to true combo that on Mario and Pac-Man up to 135% easily even with 135% rage, killing them on FD. Obviously with DI this will be more difficult but this is seriously noticeable compared to the way it was before the patch and Diddy is going to have much less trouble closing stocks now. Hoo-hah is back.

Grab end lag increase sucks but the startup is the same and Diddy should be setting up guaranteed grab setups and combos using peel traps and d-tilt more than he should be fishing for raw grabs anyway. And with that fact that d-tilt now links to grab easier and Diddy's up throw is now much more threatening it seems like a pretty fair change.

Diddy feels at least as good as he was, if not better. The changes make sense for the character and he feels very complete and well designed now. Lower damage isn't just automatically a nerf, guys. Lower damage also decreases KB and sometimes allows for combos and kill setups which would have been impossible before.

Once again, absolutely no reason to drop Diddy.

 

[andimidna]

Hmm I think I'd rather believe the best Diddy Kong in the world but thx

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Hmm I think I'd rather believe the best Diddy Kong in the world but thx

Can we drop this whole Zero is the final authority on everything and may possibly be Jesus Christ because he has inhuman fundamental tech skill and reaction speed? At least for the sake of discussion.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Can we drop this whole Zero is the final authority on everything and may possibly be Jesus Christ because he has inhuman fundamental tech skill and reaction speed? At least for the sake of discussion.

Half the time he gives good advice, but the other half of the time he proves that he has no clue how to test things accurately. He's lucky that he has Mew2King to help him.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Half the time he gives good advice, but the other half of the time he proves that he has no clue how to test things accurately. He's lucky that he has Mew2King to help him.

I mean I'll cut the guy some slack for sure, being an international celebrity is kind of difficult because everyone puts everything you say under a microscope. Again though, i feel that the reason he is so unstoppable is because his fundamentals and reaction speed are just on another level.

Nothing wrong with that though; I have a lot of respect for the guy and I'm really glad he picked up the character I main because I've learned so much from him. At the end of the day he's likely still better than everyone else regardless, so there's that.

 

[Meek Moths]

Obviously the up air change sucks. But to be honest that move was still pretty silly just because of the hitbox that could hit below Diddy while also covering his entire upper body. The animation is the same though, it just has less active frames, so you can still use the move for many of the same situations besides like SH up air approaches, combo finishers that fair c, and free combo breaks at close range disadvantage. (lol)

D-tilt getting reduced damage makes it combo into more D-tilts and grab more easily. Edit: Wow d-tilt to jump cancel up-smash kill combo is very easy now.

Diddy now has a functioning jab, something that will allow him to keep his D-tilt, SH fair and other moves fresh longer for more damage on ALL of his other grounded options. I can't believe people aren't more excited that Diddy's jab isn't useless because it's most likely bugged anymore.

Up throw 8% to 5% is a MASSIVE buff. No longer do Diddy players have like a 6% window to true link up throw to up-air for the kill since up throw now sends the opponent a much shorter distance. I did some light testing was able to true combo that on Mario and Pac-Man up to 135% easily even with 135% rage, killing them on FD. Obviously with DI this will be more difficult but this is seriously noticeable compared to the way it was before the patch and Diddy is going to have much less trouble closing stocks now. Hoo-hah is back.

Grab end lag increase sucks but the startup is the same and Diddy should be setting up guaranteed grab setups and combos using peel traps and d-tilt more than he should be fishing for raw grabs anyway. And with that fact that d-tilt now links to grab easier and Diddy's up throw is now much more threatening it seems like a pretty fair change.

Diddy feels at least as good as he was, if not better. The changes make sense for the character and he feels very complete and well designed now. Lower damage isn't just automatically a nerf, guys. Lower damage also decreases KB and sometimes allows for combos and kill setups which would have been impossible before.

Once again, absolutely no reason to drop Diddy.

i dont know if this is the case with diddy, but when they reduce damage of some moves, they usually increase the knockback so the move is the same in the end.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

i dont know if this is the case with diddy, but when they reduce damage of some moves, they usually increase the knockback so the move is the same in the end.

I've been labbing all day, I don't think this is the case. Up-throw and d-tilt have easier followups now.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

since all data were minered, why dont lock this thread ?

Because not all the data has been found; there's still ending lag/IASA timings and landing lag to find and quantify for example, which isn't indicated in the data mined.

i dont know if this is the case with diddy, but when they reduce damage of some moves, they usually increase the knockback so the move is the same in the end.

The internal knockback values of Diddy's down tilt were not altered, so it does have a practical knockback reduction with the damage reduction.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I mean I'll cut the guy some slack for sure, being an international celebrity is kind of difficult because everyone puts everything you say under a microscope.

Doesn't help that he literally keeps spouting nonsense anyways along with making tons of videos weekly like "Is Shulk the best character in the game?"
He literally sets himself up for being questioned and monitored like a hawk. And I'm pretty sure he welcomes it, since he honestly thinks Falcon was nerfed because him and m2k plays him. Thinks too highly of himself.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

since all data were minered, why dont lock this thread ?

Oh no no no, we still have so much more to talk about in this official Let's Gossip about Zero while spending ENTIRE PAGES arguing whether the Sonic and Diddy tweaks were justified thread.

You know, I think the afflicted characters by this update all have character subforums? I know I much prefer conversation about my characters with people that actually play them. Much more productive than shouting in a vacuum at everybody else. Also, gossip about the big name players is just so much more appropriate for our Facebook and Reddit environments, not the Smash 4 competitive subforum.

That all being said, I think we made some excellent progress in this thread since the update. The data dump was a huge leap forward. Anything that we may have missed by now would have to be very obscure or minute changes that don't have to do with hitboxes, and instead animation length. I'd like to keep the thread open for more proof of this stuff to be displayed and frame counted for the difference.

 

[andimidna]

Can we drop this whole Zero is the final authority on everything and may possibly be Jesus Christ because he has inhuman fundamental tech skill and reaction speed? At least for the sake of discussion.

Yikes you need to take a deep breath. Nah it's not like that. I believe Zero bc what he's saying seemingly makes sense with the changes. The new bkb on up air would be exploitable through his old up air but with 3% less damage it must have a ton less hitstun so I doubt these kills your getting would be true combos. But hey I'm not a Diddy main so if he has a kill confirm at 135 thats nice. Just doesnt sound like it fits with changes, like do you have to double jump now that the up airs aren't comboing into themselves (they arent right?) to exploit that base knockback and get around the worse kbg? Would an up throw that does 5% give enough hitstun to do this at 135? Really?
I definitely don't agree with everything Zero says but when it makes sense to me ofc I'll believe it. Diddy up air and throws just didnt seem exploitable anymore, dtilt doesnt combo into up smash later, bthrow really only kills at the ledge, and 135 isnt exactly a stellar percent for a kill confirm in itself
I thought this new diddy seemed to be more reliant on bananas and keeping ppl out, but yea if your testing is taking account for DI and not just like the training mode combo tester then I could agree.
So were you testing against somebody trying to escape the set ups?

 

[Vipermoon]

Yikes you need to take a deep breath. Nah it's not like that. I believe Zero bc what he's saying seemingly makes sense with the changes. The new bkb on up air would be exploitable through his old up air but with 3% less damage it must have a ton less hitstun so I doubt these kills your getting would be true combos. But hey I'm not a Diddy main so if he has a kill confirm at 135 thats nice. Just doesnt sound like it fits with changes, like do you have to double jump now that the up airs aren't comboing into themselves (they arent right?) to exploit that base knockback and get around the worse kbg? Would an up throw that does 5% give enough hitstun to do this at 135? Really?
I definitely don't agree with everything Zero says but when it makes sense to me ofc I'll believe it. Diddy up air and throws just didnt seem exploitable anymore, dtilt doesnt combo into up smash later, bthrow really only kills at the ledge, and 135 isnt exactly a stellar percent for a kill confirm in itself
I thought this new diddy seemed to be more reliant on bananas and keeping ppl out, but yea if your testing is taking account for DI and not just like the training mode combo tester then I could agree.
So were you testing against somebody trying to escape the set ups?

Hitstun has nothing to do with damage. It's directly related to the amount of true knockback. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[A_Kae]

Hitstun has nothing to do with damage. It's directly related to the amount of true knockback. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Specifically, it's the knockback value * .4.

The formula for knockback is:

((((((t+d)/10+(((t+d)*d)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(s/100))+b)

t = target damage
d = attack damage
w = target weight
s = knockback growth
b = base knockbacka

The amount of frames of hitstun is the result of this formula * .4, with any decimal values cut.

 

[Super FOG]

• Rapid Jab End Knockback Growth Reduced 170 → 150

HALLELUJAH!!

Still not enough when talking about ****ing Rosalina. Waiting for the nerf that makes Luma stop attacking when Rosalina is stunned.

 

[Puppyfaic]

HALLELUJAH!!

Still not enough when talking about ****ing Rosalina. Waiting for the nerf that makes Luma stop attacking when Rosalina is stunned.

Considering this is an in-game tip that is explicitly stated, this is an intended character mechanic and as such, I don't think it will ever be changed.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Specifically, it's the knockback value * .4.

The formula for knockback is:

((((((t+d)/10+(((t+d)*d)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(s/100))+b)

t = target damage
d = attack damage
w = target weight
s = knockback growth
b = base knockbacka

The amount of frames of hitstun is the result of this formula * .4, with any decimal values cut.

Is this current for smash 4? I've been very interested in finding values for hitstun in this game! If so, I have a few questions.

1. Is the target weight the value found in this compendium?
2. When would target damage (t) and attack damage (d) ever be different? These seem like they'd always match up.
3. When you say "decimal values cut," do you mean truncation? I.E. 3.14158 = 3? And 2.71828 = 2?
4. Is there a modification of the equation that accounts for stun incurred by electric attacks? (ZSS down smash, etc)
5. Did you find this, or is there a reference I can look up and read more?

Thanks in advance!

 

[A_Kae]

It should be current for smash 4. I don't remember where exactly I found it, but I do know that it was a while after it was released, and it was in a discussion about smash 4.

1. Yes.
2. Target damage is the damage of the opponent being hit. Attack Damage is the actual damage of the attack, after any move staling.
3. Yes. I'm never quite sure how to say that.
4. I'm not sure what you mean by this?
5. I didn't discover how knockback worked myself. I just copied a formula someone posted here on smashboards on while ago for my calculator.

 

[Vipermoon]

It should be current for smash 4. I don't remember where exactly I found it, but I do know that it was a while after it was released, and it was in a discussion about smash 4.

1. Yes.
2. Target damage is the damage of the opponent being hit. Attack Damage is the actual damage of the attack, after any move staling.
3. Yes. I'm never quite sure how to say that.
4. I'm not sure what you mean by this?
5. I didn't discover how knockback worked myself. I just copied a formula someone posted here on smashboards on while ago for my calculator.

He means in #4 if there is a way something can do more or less hitstun than usual? Like say if electric, fire, darkness, or magic attacks have some modifiers for extra hitstun.