Lucario's Placement in SBR's Tier List v1.0

[Browny]

idk bout you guys, but i do it solely for the utaunt

 

[G-Beast]

idk bout you guys, but i do it solely for the utaunt

yeah its perfect for my "ITS OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!" taunt LOL

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I've played Smash Bros since the 64 version first came out, and I can say with certainty that I've never felt so attached to my main as I have with Lucario.

 

[Milln]

I've played Smash Bros since the 64 version first came out, and I can say with certainty that I've never felt so attached to my main as I have with Lucario.

Ditto. Quoted for truth.

 

[phi1ny3]

I'd love to say that I'm a Lucario loyal and play him solely because I enjoy it, but if that were the case then I would still be maining Ness and Lucas.

Lucario went from being my secondary to my main because he didn't suffer like those two do at the hands of counter-picks who can chain grab them.

It's all very well and good to say you play a character solely because you enjoy them, but their bearings on the tier list should also be important. If everybody just played the most fun character or the one they liked the most in fighting games, then everyone would be playing joke characters like Neko Arc, Roll and Pichu.

We main Lucario not just becasue we like him, but because he's versatile and powerful.

I don't know about you, but do they hold blind pick tourneys there? That would help Ness/Lucas out a bit. Also, I think that many also play Lucario because he's fun (he has an exhilarating playstyle), and for some, he fits like a glove.

 

[Trapt497]

I'd love to say that I'm a Lucario loyal and play him solely because I enjoy it, but if that were the case then I would still be maining Ness and Lucas.

Lucario went from being my secondary to my main because he didn't suffer like those two do at the hands of counter-picks who can chain grab them.

It's all very well and good to say you play a character solely because you enjoy them, but their bearings on the tier list should also be important. If everybody just played the most fun character or the one they liked the most in fighting games, then everyone would be playing joke characters like Neko Arc, Roll and Pichu.

We main Lucario not just becasue we like him, but because he's versatile and powerful.

This is true. I mean, everyone has their own opinon I suppose. I personally think ^this^ as well. However, there probably are some, as you saw with what Samuelson said, that think differently. Do it solely for the reason that it is fun to have aura. And a tight u-taunt. And...lol the list goes on why it is fun to play Lucario. But I agree with you that some of us don't main him only because he's fun.

I've played Smash Bros since the 64 version first came out, and I can say with certainty that I've never felt so attached to my main as I have with Lucario.

QFT. That's really cool to think about.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

I'm about as attached to Lucario in this game as I was to Marth in Melee.

I played Bowser a lot in Melee, but that's because he was fun. I sometimes even picked him in tourney, and every once in a while I beat someone with him. BAM. But Marth was more fun.

 

[Trapt497]

I'm about as attached to Lucario in this game as I was to Marth in Melee.

I played Bowser a lot in Melee, but that's because he was fun. I sometimes even picked him in tourney, and every once in a while I beat someone with him. BAM. But Marth was more fun.

See, this brings up a good point though. Was marth more fun for you because he was better than bowser?

 

[G-Beast]

finally brawl has brought in a character i love. in 64, i played kirby because i thot he was the best character, took me a year or so to find out who my main was, in melee i mained Falco because Mewtwo let me down. Now in Brawl, i was going to main Meta Knight, but i saw that Lucario was goingto be on the roster and i said "screw Meta Knight! Lucario is were its at!" especially since Lucario is my 2nd favorite pokemon(Rayquaza is 1st). essentially, i picked Lucario because i love him, with no thought of his placement on the tier lists

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Nah, Trapt. I just loved Marth's playstyle. Trust me, if I liked Bowser more, I woulda stuck to him like Arash did. I just liked Marth more, he was more fun. I can see where you're coming from though. It's like Shiek: Shiek was good, and most people picked her up and were automatically good with her. NOT ME. I HATED Shiek, I could not stand her at all. Playing Shiek in the last game was terrible for me. She may have been higher on the tier list than almost everybody, but I absolutely despised her playstyle. I really, really hated playing as Shiek. I liked fighting them though. It don't matter how good someone is, I only play them if I like them.

 

[Kitamerby]

It's all very well and good to say you play a character solely because you enjoy them, but their bearings on the tier list should also be important. If everybody just played the most fun character or the one they liked the most in fighting games, then everyone would be playing joke characters like Neko Arc, Roll and Pichu.

We main Lucario not just becasue we like him, but because he's versatile and powerful.

Hey, Nessbounder, I'm not sure if that's exactly why everyone who mains Lucario mains him, but I for one actually do this. I don't necessarily like Lucario as a character (I'm pretty indifferent. He's not my favorite Pokemon by a long shot, but it's not like I dislike him. He's just a regular Pokemon to me.) I play him because of his powers, abilities, and movesets in Brawl. I like controlling Lucario as a character, but if it was anyone else with his moveset&stats, I'd be using them, instead. <<

On the flip side, I have Pikachu as a secondary/double main though because I love the little rat as a character, but I don't necessarily have the same rush as playing as Lucario. (It's fun, yeah but it's nothing like the feeling of control I get when playing Lucario, but I'm sure that'll get better with time and practice.)

Hmmm...well, I guess you could argue that. To an extent. However, I still don't see why make those stages legal. It's not hard to CG. At all. And similarly, if you try to beat out your opponent by simply edge camping on the walk-off blast-zones, that's really just another form of auto-win. I see no point in having stages that require no skill whatsoever to win on legal. Dumb. There are plenty of other stages to camp on without the same effect occurring(such as Green Greens), but stages like those(GHZ, Mario Circuit, Pipes...) are just lose. If you approach, get grabbed and die instantly. LOSE. It's a lose:lose situation.

Bleh, I agree with you on there to a point, but why punish everyone for a single character? Why punish the Fox players who love playing on GHZ just because DDD can chaingrab a few folks who decide not to go MK on DDDs who think GHZ will make it an easy win?

...Okay, I'm fighting a losing battle for GHZ and Mario Kart, I'll admit it. I have no clue why they're allowed. Pipes though is okay, as it is pretty much one of the extremely rare MK counterpicks, and it is a very fun stage to play on, as well as having it be relatively easy to avoid the chaingrab by playing smart.

Nah, I've been to plenty of tournaments before, and I've placed in the top ten in all of them(including those for Melee). Went to CO for some stuff, plus one of the best MK's in the nation lives here. It's just that there is no longer "random." Rather, it's now called Stage-Striking. That's what I was referring to, sorry if I confused you there! It's a pointless system, really. If you're going to use it, then why only have some of the stages neutral? Just make 'em all neutral. If you random it up, then stage-striking(dumbest rule in existence) does not occur and I'm ok. But if you do random...there shouldn't be that many stages to be considered "neutral," especially not Halberd.

I'm sorry, is Stage-striking that thing where people say what stages they want to KEEP instead of which ones they want to ban? I have no experience with that system, I'm sorry, so I can't argue anything against it. <<

Stages are neutral because they are selected via random at the tournaments I go to for the first round. Imagine how sad it would be for a poor Olimar user to get stuck on Rainbow Cruise in the first round? Instead, by using the "neutral" stages, players can fight on even playing fields for the first match to decide who gets first counterpick.

Nope. I've played DSF before(actually almost beat him once or twice in tourney, but I suicided twice in the same match...hey, I was nervous!!), and you know what? You die from anywhere between 20-50% on Halberd. It's not neutral, I don't care what you or any one else say. Play a really good MK who knows how to gimp you with the up-b. It's garbage. MK's already hard enough to beat, but this...this just goes too far. This stage should never be neutral.

How do you die at 20-50%? It doesn't make sense what you're saying. Is he doing the Uair-Tornado chain? You can get gimped by MK anywhere.

Mmmm...not necessarily. See, MK and Jiggs and Pit and such can just fly underneath the stage. Loop is therefore created. Go back and forth, trick your opponent, whatever. You're not gonna get hit. It takes no skill to win on. If the lava rises, then fly away for a bit by grabbing the ledges over and over again, abusing your invincibility frames. You still don't get hit. Do that the whole match, fly underneath the stage and back the whole match, or do both. Insta-win.

That shouldn't work at all. Anyone should be able to walk out there and smack 'em. Even if they fly out, you should just be able to leap out there with an aerial and be fine. <<

Agreed. But that's rather ostentatious, don't you think? That is merely assuming that you will ALWAYS be better than the D3. Untrue. They know how to win, and they will do whatever it takes to get that grab off. Besides, if they don't CG you, they'll just bthrow you to your doom. Same effect is achieved, right? You die via gayness. Meh...if you keep that one CP, I suppose I wouldn't mind. But the other ones I really don't agree with. Especially GHZ(WTF?!?).

It's not that simple. <<

 

[Sinz]

Bleh, I agree with you on there to a point, but why punish everyone for a single character? Why punish the Fox players who love playing on GHZ just because DDD can chaingrab a few folks who decide not to go MK on DDDs who think GHZ will make it an easy win?

Because 0-death is gay. I do it, and I know that alot of people would do it.

...Okay, I'm fighting a losing battle for GHZ and Mario Kart, I'll admit it. I have no clue why they're allowed. Pipes though is okay, as it is pretty much one of the extremely rare MK counterpicks, and it is a very fun stage to play on, as well as having it be relatively easy to avoid the chaingrab by playing smart.

Pirate ship and Pipes are better MK counterpicks. You think that chaingrabbing is super easy to avoid? Wow. I wish I was as good as you, or lived in an area with as bad as chaingrabbers as you.

I'm sorry, is Stage-striking that thing where people say what stages they want to KEEP instead of which ones they want to ban? I have no experience with that system, I'm sorry, so I can't argue anything against it. <<

Stage striking is this. You have an ODD number of stages in the neutral category(however alot of places will mix 4 counterpicks into it, which is actually kinda fun.) So you declare stage bans first, then each player strikes a stage one by one, til there is only one stage left.

Stages are neutral because they are selected via random at the tournaments I go to for the first round. Imagine how sad it would be for a poor Olimar user to get stuck on Rainbow Cruise in the first round? Instead, by using the "neutral" stages, players can fight on even playing fields for the first match to decide who gets first counterpick.

Dur.

How do you die at 20-50%? It doesn't make sense what you're saying. Is he doing the Uair-Tornado chain? You can get gimped by MK anywhere.

Mk is the easiest character to gimp anyone with, it only takes 1 dair to gimp someone, dair to footstool, to ledgehog = dead.

That shouldn't work at all. Anyone should be able to walk out there and smack 'em. Even if they fly out, you should just be able to leap out there with an aerial and be fine. <<

Have fun approaching metaknight, its a bad idea to approach him on any other stage anyways, so why not try to approach him where his upb cancels out everywhere.

It's not that simple. <<

Yes it is.

 

[Kitamerby]

Because 0-death is gay. I do it, and I know that alot of people would do it.

Let's ban DDD altogether. That would solve everyone's problems, and DK and Mario and Bowser could thrive again! :OOOO

Pirate ship and Pipes are better MK counterpicks. You think that chaingrabbing is super easy to avoid? Wow. I wish I was as good as you, or lived in an area with as bad as chaingrabbers as you.

I was talking about Pipes, which doesn't allow chaingrabs past the yellow blocks.

Stage striking is this. You have an ODD number of stages in the neutral category(however alot of places will mix 4 counterpicks into it, which is actually kinda fun.) So you declare stage bans first, then each player strikes a stage one by one, til there is only one stage left.

"Striking" stages is saying which one they don't wish to play on until they basically mutually agree on a stage? Strange system. Random seems easier. o,O

Mk is the easiest character to gimp anyone with, it only takes 1 dair to gimp someone, dair to footstool, to ledgehog = dead.

MK can do this anywhere. He said that MK kills anyone at 20-50% with Shuttle Loop, implying that Shuttle Loop outright kills anyone at those %'s, which is BS. It sets up a gimp, which MK can do anywhere, not just on Halberd.

Have fun approaching metaknight, its a bad idea to approach him on any other stage anyways, so why not try to approach him where his upb cancels out everywhere.

Then throw out a few Aura Spheres to get him to cut it out.

Yes it is.

No, it isn't.

 

[Sinz]

Let's ban DDD altogether. That would solve everyone's problems, and DK and Mario and Bowser could thrive again! :OOOO

I was talking about Pipes, which doesn't allow chaingrabs past the yellow blocks.

"Striking" stages is saying which one they don't wish to play on until they basically mutually agree on a stage? Strange system. Random seems easier. o,O

MK can do this anywhere. He said that MK kills anyone at 20-50% with Shuttle Loop, implying that Shuttle Loop outright kills anyone at those %'s, which is BS. It sets up a gimp, which MK can do anywhere, not just on Halberd

Then throw out a few Aura Spheres to get him to cut it out.


No, it isn't.

response one, nope. They already do fine,

Response 2, I was watching bleach and I guess it covered over the word pipes, I just saw the ghz and made an assumption, but we all know what to assume is, it makes an *** out of u and me.

Response 3, it is actually time consuming, but it is well worth it.

Response 4, he can gimp with Shuttle loop, it is just easier to do with dair.

Response 5, he can change platforms :/

 

[Timbers]

Norcal had/has stagestriking. It's actually really nice. Instead of here where I can john all day about how I random battlefield against aerial-**** characters.

 

[Trapt497]

Yes, the stage-striking system sounds like a great implementation into tournaments.

Nah, Trapt. I just loved Marth's playstyle. Trust me, if I liked Bowser more, I woulda stuck to him like Arash did. I just liked Marth more, he was more fun. I can see where you're coming from though. It's like Shiek: Shiek was good, and most people picked her up and were automatically good with her. NOT ME. I HATED Shiek, I could not stand her at all. Playing Shiek in the last game was terrible for me. She may have been higher on the tier list than almost everybody, but I absolutely despised her playstyle. I really, really hated playing as Shiek. I liked fighting them though. It don't matter how good someone is, I only play them if I like them.

Ok. Sounds like a good reason to play someone to me :D.

I wanted to add on to my answer to NESSBOUNDER's point about how he thinks none of us play Lucario solely on 'fun' (though some here disagree, and claim thats what they do). I main Lucario because he was my most wanted character ever since August or so, 2007. And when he was leaked, I knew I'd main him, no matter what. Thankfully for me, he is fun for me to play and I feel like he fits my playstyle well. I suppose I got a little lucky. If he didn't fit my playstyle...if I hated how he played, though, I would still main him for fun. Because I wanted him in so badly. But I can say I am one of those that does not play Lucario only because he is fun to use. Though that plays a big part in it.

 

[G-Beast]

if Lucario was bottom and the worst character in the game, i would still main him...
...amd give sakurai some serious hate mail =/

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Bleh, I agree with you on there to a point, but why punish everyone for a single character? Why punish the Fox players who love playing on GHZ just because DDD can chaingrab a few folks who decide not to go MK on DDDs who think GHZ will make it an easy win?

Hmmmm...and thus, the logical fallacy of circular reasoning occurs. I don't think there's a winning side to this argument. However, my point still stands that it's far easier in this game to CG than in Melee, so ANYONE could pick D3 and CG to win, even if they don't play him. Just play him enough to learn how to get a grab off and you're set for stages like that.

...Okay, I'm fighting a losing battle for GHZ and Mario Kart, I'll admit it. I have no clue why they're allowed. Pipes though is okay, as it is pretty much one of the extremely rare MK counterpicks, and it is a very fun stage to play on, as well as having it be relatively easy to avoid the chaingrab by playing smart.

Pipes is cool. But those other two? Garbage.

I'm sorry, is Stage-striking that thing where people say what stages they want to KEEP instead of which ones they want to ban? I have no experience with that system, I'm sorry, so I can't argue anything against it. <<

Yea, it's weird. I think it's just a waste of time. Just do random and fight already.

Stages are neutral because they are selected via random at the tournaments I go to for the first round. Imagine how sad it would be for a poor Olimar user to get stuck on Rainbow Cruise in the first round? Instead, by using the "neutral" stages, players can fight on even playing fields for the first match to decide who gets first counterpick.

Trust me, I know all the tournament rules dude. I was up there with Forward, El Lovo and FastLikeTree in Melee. FLT and Forward were still quite a bit better than me, but I could hold my own.

How do you die at 20-50%? It doesn't make sense what you're saying. Is he doing the Uair-Tornado chain? You can get gimped by MK anywhere.

I say you die so early on that stage compared to other neutral stages because there's only one little platform and then blast-zones are all rather small. Stages like FD and Yoshi's Island he actually has to jump off the stage to kill you with it. However, on Halberd, he merely has to hit you with Shuttle Loop when you're near the edge and you'll die. You won't make it back, as ES is not an attack.

That shouldn't work at all. Anyone should be able to walk out there and smack 'em. Even if they fly out, you should just be able to leap out there with an aerial and be fine. <<

It's not that simple. Abuse invincibility from the ledges and you won't get hit at all, remember. Very few places on that stage actually negate the camping and stalling. When the lava rises and when it comes from the side it does, but the wave and spray? Big deal.

MK can do this anywhere. He said that MK kills anyone at 20-50% with Shuttle Loop, implying that Shuttle Loop outright kills anyone at those %'s, which is BS. It sets up a gimp, which MK can do anywhere, not just on Halberd

Then throw out a few Aura Spheres to get him to cut it out.

Mmmm...not what I was implying. The Shuttle Loop IS a gimp. It's like Fox's shine in Melee, which could kill people at any percentage. It has a set knockback at certain areas of the attack independent of character weight(I think so. Not 100% positive, but I'm pretty sure) and you can't do anything about it. On Halberd it's just a million times more effective than on other stages, as explained somewhere earlier.

And the AS thing? You can't do that. MK's up-B cancel is too fast. He can do three of them in one second on Halberd. And you won't be able to hit him with your AS anyways, because it's too fast. And you can only do it on the ledge, unless there's a platform above you, then you can cancel it on the platform too. But that's not too important in the grand scheme of MK. That's an annoying extra feature, but it's not too hard to avoid, as it's fairly impractical in most cases.

You're fun to debate with Kitamerby. I am immensely enjoying myself probing the reasoning behind the SBR. Seriously.

 

[Trapt497]

if Lucario was bottom and the worst character in the game, i would still main him...
...amd give sakurai some serious hate mail =/

Same here.

Hmmmm...and thus, the logical fallacy of circular reasoning occurs. I don't think there's a winning side to this argument. However, my point still stands that it's far easier in this game to CG than in Melee, so ANYONE could pick D3 and CG to win, even if they don't play him. Just play him enough to learn how to get a grab off and you're set for stages like that.

If you two don't mind, I'd like to step in with my opinons and talk with you guys for a little because you are posting a lot of information.

Unless you are someone like DK or mario in which he can infinite you, chaingrabbing really isn't that bad. It never declares an 'instant win.' Unless, like you said, on crap stages with walk-off edges. But excluding that its not that big a deal...for example, m2k gives Azen so much chaingrabbing BS, but Azen shakes it off and still wins sometimes. Given, this would be different on walf-off stages.

Pipes is cool. But those other two? Garbage.

I hate pipes soo freakin much...I don't know why its just one of my least favorite stages to play on. The only thing thats semi-good about it is the walk-off edge is a steep hill...and yet, its still a stupid walk-off. Why the heck was it brought back...lol.

Yea, it's weird. I think it's just a waste of time. Just do random and fight already.

Wierd or not, I can't think of a more fair system to use in tournaments. It's simple logic: each player does away with the stages they like the least in that particular matchup, leaving you with one stage that is the fairest possible stage for it. I would so much rather spend that little extra time to play on a fair stage instead of picking random and getting a stage that gives your opponent advantages. Wouldn't you?

I say you die so early on that stage compared to other neutral stages because there's only one little platform and then blast-zones are all rather small. Stages like FD and Yoshi's Island he actually has to jump off the stage to kill you with it. However, on Halberd, he merely has to hit you with Shuttle Loop when you're near the edge and you'll die. You won't make it back, as ES is not an attack.

Agreed. I wouldn't say you'd die instantly though, especially at lower percents...it takes him a while to get back on his feet after shuttle looping. Besides, its not like the shuttle loop hits you down. Avoiding a gimp while recovering from the side is MUCH easier than avoiding one while recovering up.

 

[Sinz]

Mmmm...not what I was implying. The Shuttle Loop IS a gimp. It's like Fox's shine in Melee, which could kill people at any percentage. It has a set knockback at certain areas of the attack independent of character weight(I think so. Not 100% positive, but I'm pretty sure) and you can't do anything about it. On Halberd it's just a million times more effective than on other stages, as explained somewhere earlier.

And the AS thing? You can't do that. MK's up-B cancel is too fast. He can do three of them in one second on Halberd. And you won't be able to hit him with your AS anyways, because it's too fast. And you can only do it on the ledge, unless there's a platform above you, then you can cancel it on the platform too. But that's not too important in the grand scheme of MK. That's an annoying extra feature, but it's not too hard to avoid, as it's fairly impractical in most cases.

You're fun to debate with Kitamerby. I am immensely enjoying myself probing the reasoning behind the SBR. Seriously.

Response to paragraph one. It doesn't have a set knockback :D Though, it sometimes ***** really hard.

If you really want to see sheananigans, goto Spear Pillar, and goto the tunnel thing under it as MK, and jump and then do an upb, and keep holding up, and mashing b.

 

[Trapt497]

^^Yeah I didn't think it had that set knockback thing...it is a good move but it doesn't seem THAT good :D.

When shuttle loop does ****, its bad news. Because there is basically nothing we can do about it. Except time a perfect AD or something haha. But it can't kill at all percents.

 

[Sinz]

Trapt, it can kill at all percents. :D

 

[Kitamerby]

Because there is basically nothing we can do about it. Except time a perfect AD or something haha. But it can't kill at all percents.

Dair disagrees.

 

[Timbers]

shuttleloop won't kill at any percent. It's entirely dependent on how bad/good a recovery is. I mean, yeah if you shuttleloop a Link out of his second jump, then he's pretty much dead whenever. Buut...who plays Link again?

It has a really ghetto trajectory on it depending on where it hits you (like -20 degrees? lol) but so many recoveries in this game are just "too good."

From the stage edge, you're able to live until around 70% when taking the homo-knockback-brunt of it, before hitting the blastzone.

Even Lucario can recover back to the stage at 50% when being sent at that angle.

Still an amazingly gay move, but not that broken lol.

 

[Trapt497]

Trapt, it can kill at all percents. :D

How? Can't kill at 0%. No way. It could be used to kill as a gimp i suppose...but...meh. You've gotta admit, there has to be some sort of range it doesn't kill, like %0 to %40, at least. Or something completely random like that.

Dair disagrees.

Mmmm...good point...sounds hard to pull off but it sounds good to me.

 

[Sinz]

How? Can't kill at 0%. No way. It could be used to kill as a gimp i suppose...but...meh. You've gotta admit, there has to be some sort of range it doesn't kill, like %0 to %40, at least. Or something completely random like that.

Well if you get close enough to the walk off zone...

You get the picture, it was supposed to be a jokish type thing.

I thought you guys were laid back, and not super serious, cmon I come to the lucario forums when I main MK.

 

[phi1ny3]

Well if you get close enough to the walk off zone...

You get the picture, it was supposed to be a jokish type thing.

I thought you guys were laid back, and not super serious, cmon I come to the lucario forums when I main MK.

I do know what u mean by that, it kills sometimes sooooo early, it's almost like I feel like I went from 0-death in 7 sec. or something like that.

 

[Timbers]

Well if you get close enough to the walk off zone...

You get the picture, it was supposed to be a jokish type thing.

I thought you guys were laid back, and not super serious, cmon I come to the lucario forums when I main MK.

always have to be serious round here good sir!

 

[dj_pwn1423]

shuttleloop won't kill at any percent.

corneria should be banned as it defies the laws of nature.

 

[Trapt497]

^^lol true

Well if you get close enough to the walk off zone...

You get the picture, it was supposed to be a jokish type thing.

I thought you guys were laid back, and not super serious, cmon I come to the lucario forums when I main MK.

Outside of the lucario chat room, I take everything too seriosuly. I'm so terrible at pointing out sarcasm/jokes fgrom seriousness. We are pretty laid back though...i guess.

 

[tedward2000]

Hellz yea we're laid back. And when things get to serious. A order of Chill is required.
Like now.
Chill the fvck out.
-t2

 

[Sinz]

I will try to use joke tags more often.

:D

 

[Trapt497]

Chill the fvck out.
-t2

I believe that term has now been dubbed "Chill the out" by Timbers :D.

Haha, ok sinz, you dont really have to if you don't want to. Its just my lack of understanding internet sarcasm sometimes.

Anyways, back on topic, cause this thread is specifically about Lucario, not meta knight.