Lucario's Placement in SBR's Tier List v1.0

[Browny]

ffs not more of this 'its only azen' crap again

apply that logic to every top tier character and look what happens
what if Chillin + sethlon didnt main Falco?
what if anther didnt main Pikachu?
what if Futile + reflex didnt main wario?
what if BUM didnt main DK?

wow... its the EXACT same for every character except MK + snake, who just win by sheer numbers

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Haha. Is that character the longcario you referenced to in your last post? I'm glad he's pleased. I bet longcario would be god tier if he was in brawl.

And yea, Azen pretty much has shown how good he is. How much of a threat he is. And how good lucario is.

I wonder though...if Azen never existed, would lucario be lower? Would less and less people see how much priority and awesomeness he has? Or would the other Lucario greats (I'm lookin at you Blood Hawk ^.^) still show that Lucario belongs in that tier spot? Or...would the SBR see how good he is anyways, regardless of pros?

What do you guys think? Would no azen equal lucario being lower?

Nope. The character I made for Mugen is an original named Maxime.

http://www.mugen-infantry.net/forum/index.php?topic=112082.0

I have no idea what longcario is supposed to be. Probably some mutant hybrid of Longcat and Lucario. However, I do know tha the is pleased.

 

[Red Hawk One]

The list seems to be pretty much based off of tourney results so far, and seeing that Lucario is ranked around ninth in tourney results (according to Ankoku's data, at least)...
I kinda saw this coming.

 

[Nurotasama]

Nope. The character I made for Mugen is an original named Maxime.

http://www.mugen-infantry.net/forum/index.php?topic=112082.0

I have no idea what longcario is supposed to be. Probably some mutant hybrid of Longcat and Lucario. However, I do know tha the is pleased.

Too bad I deleted all of my mugen stuff since it was taking up too much room for not being used enough.

 

[Timbers]

What makes you think they're all idiots? You'd think no one in there would be idiots, wouldn't you? I guess you have your reasons but I've always thought the SBR was one of the most reliable sources for information, having the most intelligent posters from SWF all gathered into one place. Why have you given up hope on them in Brawl? I'm not challenging you or arguing, I'm just curious.

A good percent of the SBR makes Brawl out to be a joke, so the dedication to brawl they're showing (or at least giving the effect of) is pretty "meh" when stacking it up to melee. They're still reliable sources of information, but I think Erich was just getting the point across that he'd rather trust his own opinion than the SBR's.

 

[hough123]

*stuff*

How come whenever I post here, I get negetive feedback from you?
Do you have a problem with me or something?

 

[-mugen-]

ffs not more of this 'its only azen' crap again

apply that logic to every top tier character and look what happens
what if Chillin + sethlon didnt main Falco?
what if anther didnt main Pikachu?
what if Futile + reflex didnt main wario?
what if BUM didnt main DK?

wow... its the EXACT same for every character except MK + snake, who just win by sheer numbers

No. Falco is good. An idiot can see that. And the second I played Pikachu, I knew she was good. Those are really bad examples. DK and Wario are decent cases, but I still think they have more overall potential than Lucario.

What I'm basically saying is that I doubt anyone will be as good as he is with his character, and that's why tiers can cause misunderstandings. I could be wrong, but it's especially in the case of Lucario that I make this point because he's just so simple that predicting and reading your opponent is so necessary. You can't just sit around and wait to f-tilt while throwing nades. You can't just tornado and then fair them death. You need to be really good at the game. Not so much the character, since he isn't hard to master, but the game. Azen is good at the game. For god's sake he could play at the highest level with like half the characters in melee. And I'm not saying that the character is bad and you are just sufficing to this. I'm implying that he may not be as high on the tier list if it wasn't for Azen being really, really good at Super Smash Bros.

I only really mean a couple spots too. I'm not saying he's like mid-tier like a bunch of other douches...

I'll just.. go back to talking about flowers...

 

[Timbers]

Azen did not affect that tier list.

lol.

You're more than welcome to give me an argument as to which characters should/could be above Lucario, and I would listen, but you're going to need some convincing for me to agree. The characters below Lucario aren't exactly threatening or flowing with potential. Definitely not anymore than Lucario is.

 

[Ballistaboy]

No. Falco is good. An idiot can see that. And the second I played Pikachu, I knew she was good. Those are really bad examples. DK and Wario are decent cases, but I still think they have more overall potential than Lucario.

What I'm basically saying is that I doubt anyone will be as good as he is with his character, and that's why tiers can cause misunderstandings. I could be wrong, but it's especially in the case of Lucario that I make this point because he's just so simple that predicting and reading your opponent is so necessary. You can't just sit around and wait to f-tilt while throwing nades. You can't just tornado and then fair them death. You need to be really good at the game. Not so much the character, since he isn't hard to master, but the game. Azen is good at the game. For god's sake he could play at the highest level with like half the characters in melee. And I'm not saying that the character is bad and you are just sufficing to this. I'm implying that he may not be as high on the tier list if it wasn't for Azen being really, really good at Super Smash Bros.

I only really mean a couple spots too. I'm not saying he's like mid-tier like a bunch of other douches...

I'll just.. go back to talking about flowers...

Azen also could bring more players to main lucario once they see his potential.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Azen did not affect that tier list.

lol.

You're more than welcome to give me an argument as to which characters should/could be above Lucario, and I would listen, but you're going to need some convincing for me to agree. The characters below Lucario aren't exactly threatening or flowing with potential. Definitely not anymore than Lucario is.

Donkey Kong is respectable, and Diddy and Pikachu might both be BETTER than Lucario.

However, it might be necesary to keep the style of the player in mind. If Lucario fits Azen's style especially well, then other people with similar styles can do well with Lucario. Lucario has a good F-smash (and Azen likes F-smash), as well as a number of attack setups which cause people to land in Azen's attacks (as well as high comboability).

Speaking of F-smash, ever notice that A LOT of players have a tendancy to respond poorly to charged F-smashes? Quite a few less-experienced players try to punish the F-smash, but end up getting hit by the most powerful part of the attack. It's actually really strange, as I've run into quite a few charged F-smashes myself in failed attempts to punish the smash (and not just Lucario's either).

 

[G-Beast]

i think high is fine, but i also think he could make it in top tier, since only GaW has a definte advantage to him in top tier.

 

[bludhoundz]

Lucario is not top tier. G&W, MK, Snake, D3, Marth, Falco and ROB are simply better.

He is however, a quite strong character that will probably remain in high tier.

 

[Trapt497]

ffs not more of this 'its only azen' crap again

apply that logic to every top tier character and look what happens
what if Chillin + sethlon didnt main Falco?
what if anther didnt main Pikachu?
what if Futile + reflex didnt main wario?
what if BUM didnt main DK?

wow... its the EXACT same for every character except MK + snake, who just win by sheer numbers

Azen did not affect that tier list.

lol.

Its not crap... I was just asking for a different discussion. I never even claimed myself that 'it's only azen.' I was just wondering what everyone else thought.

 

[phi1ny3]

They said another factor was matchups, not just results. I'm in the camp that says he's right where he is, in high tier.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

You do gotta admit that Lucci probably wouldn't be getting quite the same recognition if not for Azen. Ditto for Wario and Futile/Reflex. Those two characters are the ones that seem to stand out the most in this regard, as they've had a fair amount of misconceptions about them overturned, whereas people have known how good Falco is practically since launch.

Of course, now instead you get some people saying it's just Azen being Azen, and Lucci gets ignored again.

Well, everyone, you know what that means. Your homework is to become as good as Azen.

 

[phi1ny3]

You do gotta admit that Lucci probably wouldn't be getting quite the same recognition if not for Azen. Ditto for Wario and Futile/Reflex. Those two characters are the ones that seem to stand out the most in this regard, as they've had a fair amount of misconceptions about them overturned, whereas people have known how good Falco is practically since launch.

Of course, now instead you get some people saying it's just Azen being Azen, and Lucci gets ignored again.

Well, everyone, you know what that means. Your homework is to become as good as Azen.

I couldn't agree moar with this statement, but Blood Hawk isn't letting us down either. Nonetheless, we gotta get going on some moar ownage.

 

[tedward2000]

Less Q Q, more aura pew pew.

We (those who are actually serious about boosting lucario) need to train more. And be more hands on.
That Road trip is sounding like a really good idea now.
-t2

 

[x After Dawn x]

Lol tedward.

You know what I think? The SBR is full of idiots. So I really don't care where they place Lucario. I will continue to play as him because he is ridiculously fun to play and he's still good. They could place him at the bottom and I'll still place in at least top 10 for every tournament I ever enter, just like I have been doing. Lucario's only as good as you make him, and he has enough potential to win.

The SBR wasn't so bad for Melee. In fact, they were pretty good. But I've given up all hope on them for Brawl. Sadly.

This is the most intelligent post that there is and every will be in this thread

and until you guys realize that the SBR isn't a bunch of SSB gods and is actually a bunch of Melee pros that don't know a thing about Brawl, you won't realize how absolutely horrible their tier list and stage list is.

And I won't forget to mention that anybody can be good in Brawl if you manage to play them properly. This applies even to characters like Yoshi, Bowser, Ganondorf, and Falcon, so you shouldn't play Brawl like Melee, where everybody was a tier ***** that played either Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, or Falcon. Play whoever you feel like playing, because there aren't many limitations on any character, as bad as they may seem.

Just be sure not to face MK or Snake or G&W too much and you'll be fine.

Good day.

 

[phi1ny3]

Ya, kinda figured by the thousands of BR ppl who were Xtremely biased about Melee vs. Brawl. It was large, even considering that most prefer Melee over Brawl. I'm in the "I love Brawl just as much" group, I see that those who complain with "melee combos", I say that Brawl is a different fighter. If you wanted "combo memorization" games, Street Fighter/Soul Calibur are the games. Brawl is theoretical and moar mindgame, imo. But that's why I also like Brawl's community. It seems they've learned a bit more that one should play by who they fit with, not pressured into tier as oft (yes, there are still tons of Snakes and MK players, but then again, "Tiers r 4 queers" wasn't real popular until closer to Brawl's release, and the lack of lopsided ATs for the top tiers have made the mix possible). Oh, and SCIENCE!

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Fair enough. I've known not to put too much stock into what the SBR says after looking at that mess they call a stage legality list.

Only problem is the people who do. But as I've said, Lucario's not quite high enough to attract a lot of tier whores, and as Hawk has mentioned, his "learning curve" requires a certain degree of dedication to the character.

Guess this doesn't really affect us much at all!

 

[Crizthakidd]

lucario is a perfect way to measure skill in this game. he does as well as u make him do. so you gota play extra hard when facing tough matches kile GnW or snake but overall hes mad beast. it took me a while to know it too

 

[Lucario Boricua]

To be objective, the position is pretty nice, although there are other characters that could be slightly better. By having used Lucario as my main character in SSBB since I played the game for the first time, I've had the chance to study and compare its moves with those of most BRAWL characters, along with its general stats. This would be my analysis of Lucario as a BRAWL character (so far):

Advantages:
-Quite heavy and agile (allows for more chances for DI recovery & general ground battling)
-Double-Team, a counterattack that protects against almost all damage forms
-Increased power for the Aura Sphere when high in damage
-Smash attacks that are somewhat slow in execution, but possessing long reach and duration of damage window
-A Force Palm that works through shields
-Wall jump and wall cling abilities, which allow for better recovery on aerial stages with walls on the sides of the grounded platform (such as BRAWL's Yoshi's Island)
-A Final Smash that can luckily and pretty easily be aimed at sereval foes
-Well-ranged and fast dodging

Disadvantages:
-The Aura Sphere takes quite a while to be charged, and it doesn't has enough horizontal reach
-The non-special moves are somewhat weak
-The upward recovery attack doesn't damage foes, and it's fairly basic
-The Double-Team doesn't always damage the foe, especially when not in the ground\
-Lucario's grabs aren't as versatile or strong as those of other characters
-Force Palm doesn't damages much the foe

If anyone wants to share some more knowledge, I welcome it.

 

[phi1ny3]

To be objective, the position is pretty nice, although there are other characters that could be slightly better. By having used Lucario as my main character in SSBB since I played the game for the first time, I've had the chance to study and compare its moves with those of most BRAWL characters, along with its general stats. This would be my analysis of Lucario as a BRAWL character (so far):

Advantages:
-Quite heavy and agile (allows for more chances for DI recovery & general ground battling)
-Double-Team, a counterattack that protects against almost all damage forms
-Increased power for the Aura Sphere when high in damage
-Smash attacks that are somewhat slow in execution, but possessing long reach and duration of damage window
-A Force Palm that works through shields
-Wall jump and wall cling abilities, which allow for better recovery on aerial stages with walls on the sides of the grounded platform (such as BRAWL's Yoshi's Island)
-A Final Smash that can luckily and pretty easily be aimed at sereval foes
-Well-ranged and fast dodging

Disadvantages:
-The Aura Sphere takes quite a while to be charged, and it doesn't has enough horizontal reach
-The non-special moves are somewhat weak
-The upward recovery attack doesn't damage foes, and it's fairly basic
-The Double-Team doesn't always damage the foe, especially when not in the ground\
-Lucario's grabs aren't as versatile or strong as those of other characters
-Force Palm doesn't damages much the foe

If anyone wants to share some more knowledge, I welcome it.

If I may, I have corrections:
-he's kinda floaty, although his horizontal survivability is above average
-AS has good reach, fully charged goes roughly FD's length.
-non special moves are pretty strong, Azen will testify for Fsmash especially
-Lucario's grabs are actually pretty good, it's the grab range that isn't
-FP at either percents is decent at damaging (at low %, chain, at high, it does a nonshieldable 14-16%ish, and it is a strong throw).
-recovery isn't quite so basic, as wall cling, extreme-awesome, and extreme-hog will tell.
Hope this clarified a few things


Edit: Wow, this is my 666th post. How spooky

 

[nightSN]

i thought lucario would be closer to falco though =\ but this is good too

 

[LordoftheMorning]

I'm alright with his placement. He's a highly respectable character, and a deadly force to be reckoned with. I also am happy with Marth and Ike .

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Honesty I'm at the point where I don't care where Lucario's place on the tier list is.

I KNOW he doesn't have terrible matchups against the higher tier characters, including Metaknight. And that's good enough for me.

What I'm really sad about is Lucas and Ness being Low tier...DESPITE ALL THE BUFFS NESS RECIEVED. GAWD!

But as long as I can still use the PK boys to counterpick against Dedede I suppose it's alright.

I've started to care less about the tier list and more about matchups lately. If a character has a USE then I don't see them as useless. Ness and Lucas aren't main characters, but they do have uses. And I love them for it.

 

[tedward2000]

lucario is a perfect way to measure skill in this game. he does as well as u make him do. so you gota play extra hard when facing tough matches kile GnW or snake but overall hes mad beast. it took me a while to know it too

most true and well said.
-t2

 

[Timbers]

Donkey Kong is respectable, and Diddy and Pikachu might both be BETTER than Lucario.

However, it might be necesary to keep the style of the player in mind. If Lucario fits Azen's style especially well, then other people with similar styles can do well with Lucario. Lucario has a good F-smash (and Azen likes F-smash), as well as a number of attack setups which cause people to land in Azen's attacks (as well as high comboability).

Speaking of F-smash, ever notice that A LOT of players have a tendancy to respond poorly to charged F-smashes? Quite a few less-experienced players try to punish the F-smash, but end up getting hit by the most powerful part of the attack. It's actually really strange, as I've run into quite a few charged F-smashes myself in failed attempts to punish the smash (and not just Lucario's either).

DK? lol. Getting infinited by one top/high tier, and chaingrabbed by 3 others to like 50% is probably not going to warrant him anything higher than 10th. I don't see any reason he'd be above Lucario in a tier list.

Diddy maybe. It's hard to say, once you learn how to deal with bananas then it's like impossible for Diddy to ever set up a killer or even rack damage. Characters who HAVE to play an offensive game are usually the ones that get shut down really hard by some of the cast, excluding MK (obviously) I'm not a Diddy main, but it's just my stand on it.

Pikachu won't surpass Lucario. He really has like nothing going for him that Lucario doesn't already have, unless some groundbreaking discovery is found with his QAC.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Here's the link:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192028

It's like a sticky in the general brawl forum, lol.



What makes you think they're all idiots? You'd think no one in there would be idiots, wouldn't you? I guess you have your reasons but I've always thought the SBR was one of the most reliable sources for information, having the most intelligent posters from SWF all gathered into one place. Why have you given up hope on them in Brawl? I'm not challenging you or arguing, I'm just curious.

Oh and, Nessbounder, i haven't seen you around in like forever. Not cool.
Oh, and, grats on 1000 Kitamerby :D good work.

Hmmm...well, let's take a look at the official stage list, eh? First, I will quote something:


Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs most end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling.

Now, if that were true...why in the name of some absolutely vile curse word is Norfair legal? Why...is Pirate Ship legal(love that stage personally, but...)? Why is Skyworld still legal? Moving on to the next point:

CHAIN-GRABBING IS PATHETICALLY EASY TO PULL OFF IN THIS GAME. Now, if the SBR knew this, why did they make Green Hill Zone, Mario Circuit, and Yoshi's Island(Pipes) legal? ANYONE can pick D3 and EASILY CG you to your death every stock. Stupid.

Why is Castle Siege even considered possibly neutral? Why is Halberd neutral at all? That's Snake and MK heaven, plus half the time you're not even on a full playing field, just one little platform. GARBAGE.

And that's just the stage list. I've got plenty of other beef with their idiocy, but that's part of it. I could list the tier list, but I haven't even looked at it because I really don't care about it.

Now, don't get me wrong, the SBR was very, very good at what they did for Melee. Their stage list and rule-set, etc. was perfect for Melee and it's fast pace, with hit stun and true combos, they really chose well. And they made the tier list completely correct. For Brawl however...they haven't adjusted well at all and therefore have many incorrect observations. It's gonna take them some time before I trust their judgment.

And let's make this real' clear: not everyone in there is an idiot. But the fools far outweigh the wise.

Guess I didn't really need to explain that, but I did anyways. Good enough for you Trapt? If not, I'll be happy to explain even more!!

See you guys later.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

DK? lol. Getting infinited by one top/high tier, and chaingrabbed by 3 others to like 50% is probably not going to warrant him anything higher than 10th. I don't see any reason he'd be above Lucario in a tier list.

Diddy maybe. It's hard to say, once you learn how to deal with bananas then it's like impossible for Diddy to ever set up a killer or even rack damage. Characters who HAVE to play an offensive game are usually the ones that get shut down really hard by some of the cast, excluding MK (obviously) I'm not a Diddy main, but it's just my stand on it.

Pikachu won't surpass Lucario. He really has like nothing going for him that Lucario doesn't already have, unless some groundbreaking discovery is found with his QAC.

Pikachu actually has A LOT going for him that lucario doesn't have. The character playstyles aren't comparable.

QAC - can easily be used to land a Dair, or jumped out of to land an easy sweet-spotted Nair.

Pikachu does well against Dedede (I'm not completely sure, but I've never had much problems with the matchup)

Pikachu is fairly decent at getting vertical KO's (thunder, anyone)

Pikachu can't be edgestalled (thunderbolt)

But the most significant gameplay difference between Pikachu and Lucario is that Lucario doesn't drive you mad with an annoying combination of cuteness and endless taunting. Lucario would never say Pika Pika! twenty times in a single match.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Diddy is top tier, SBR just doesn't know it because it's full of scrubs that haven't seen a good Diddy play yet. Watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV8NmhSBXmw

You'll be amazed.

and just so you guys didn't miss it:

This is the most intelligent post that there is and every will be in this thread

and until you guys realize that the SBR isn't a bunch of SSB gods and is actually a bunch of Melee pros that don't know a thing about Brawl, you won't realize how absolutely horrible their tier list and stage list is.

And I won't forget to mention that anybody can be good in Brawl if you manage to play them properly. This applies even to characters like Yoshi, Bowser, Ganondorf, and Falcon, so you shouldn't play Brawl like Melee, where everybody was a tier ***** that played either Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, or Falcon. Play whoever you feel like playing, because there aren't many limitations on any character, as bad as they may seem.

Just be sure not to face MK or Snake or G&W too much and you'll be fine.

Good day.

 

[phi1ny3]

Wow, that Pika was owned. Too bad he didn't take to the air b4 Diddy did those dash attack banana combos, but he's got nana skillz.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Diddy is top tier, SBR just doesn't know it because it's full of scrubs that haven't seen a good Diddy play yet. Watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV8NmhSBXmw

You'll be amazed.

Great Diddy video, and while that explains perfeclty my sentiments concerning Diddy, that pikachu was TERRIBLE. Diddy had a complete aspect of the technical tricks of his game, but the pikachu user didn't even have the common sence to focus more on the air game to counter the ground-based banana game. Not only that, but he clearly had no understanding of QAC. The two players were not of the same level.

Nevertheless, a perfect demonstration of a good Diddy.

 

[Kitamerby]

ffs not more of this 'its only azen' crap again

apply that logic to every top tier character and look what happens
what if Chillin + sethlon didnt main Falco?
what if anther didnt main Pikachu?
what if Futile + reflex didnt main wario?
what if BUM didnt main DK?

wow... its the EXACT same for every character except MK + snake, who just win by sheer numbers

There are many more Falcos than Chillin and Sethlon, such as SK92.

Those characters are generally more popular than Lucario, anyways, so someone would most likely fill their shoes if they were to disappear.

 

[dguy6789]

Diddy is top tier

Hardly.

10char

 

[x After Dawn x]

The Pikachu wasn't good, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that Diddy is good. And who knows; a year from now, when we're all better at this game, Diddy will get even better because of his ability to mindgame your opponent out. Either way, you guys are missing the point that the SBR doesn't really know what they're talking about half the time. The entire middle tier is messed up. Putting Bowser and Fox in the same tier obviously means that they're stupid or something, because anybody who can play Bowser well can play Fox way better. Fox is high tier and Bowser is bottom tier.

Concerning Lucario, he is high tier as well.

 

[phi1ny3]

I would say Fox is actually mid (I'm not sure, might be that I've owned about 4 foxes who were pretty good too), but I do say that Pika has a lot of things going for him, with good aerials, decent edgeguard abilities, QAC, and chain grabs. But srsly, Fox is by no means in high. And Pika as well.

 

[Nurotasama]

Fox is high tier and Bowser is bottom tier.

Concerning Lucario, he is high tier as well.

You just lost your credibility there.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Fox should be low high or high mid, but due to character-specific bs such as falling prey to a whole bunch of nonsense from the likes of Pikachu and Sheik, he suffers a similar fate to Ness and Lucas.

 

[dguy6789]

The Pikachu wasn't good, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that Diddy is good.

The Diddy player was good. The character is only above average.

And who knows; a year from now, when we're all better at this game, Diddy will get even better because of his ability to mindgame your opponent out.

Are you serious? That sentence could be applied to any character in the entire game. You don't even know what mindgames are.

Either way, you guys are missing the point that the SBR doesn't really know what they're talking about half the time.

It's pretty arrogant for someone like you to say that.

The entire middle tier is messed up. Putting Bowser and Fox in the same tier obviously means that they're stupid or something, because anybody who can play Bowser well can play Fox way better. Fox is high tier and Bowser is bottom tier.

Calling Fox high tier is quite silly. Saying that Bowser is as bad as Sonic is pretty silly too.

Concerning Lucario, he is high tier as well.

Bravo.

You just lost your credibility there.

He never had credibility to begin with.