~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[Timbers]

lol.

Yeah. Can't win them all. Marth just happens to be one of the few that does give Luc a helluva time.

Not as much as like, GaW..or Olimar, but he's still up there.

 

[dguy6789]

Marth's worse than Olimar in my opinion.

 

[Timbers]

hmm really? I haven't played any good Olimars yet, so I kind of took the board's word for it.

 

[mr_kennedy44]

Hurray for the sticky. Now for Marth who I have some experience with.

As EL pointed out BAS isn't as effective against Marth than they would be against say DK.

Marth has a great airgame. Marth's f-air is fantastic and a great approach. His n-air is good as well. Tipper b-air can be used to kill if it isn't stale so watch out for that.

Marth has a solid ground game. DB is IMO one of the best moves in the game. It is great for comboing, damage etc. Marth's tilts are fast to come out and have good priority. Tipped f-smash and u-smash are great K.O. moves and don't have much lag on them.

Marth's biggest weaknesses are his lightweight, sub-par recovery and the fact that he lacks a projectile.

His recovery can be gimped but against a good Marth it can be hard.

I don't know much about CPing stages so I'll let someone else touch down on them.

It could be an even match-up but I'd put the match-up at 40:60 in Marth's favour.

 

[Timbers]

Lol, stay off of Battlefield. I mentioned Samus and Zamus having advantages here? Yeah. This is Marthland. Stay off of it <.< Same with Lylat <.<

Marth doesn't really have any bad stages. Frigate would probably be a good option for you, however. Both stages are good. All of the walls allow you to cling to them. Going to sound repetitive here, but oh God the right side of the first stage is delicious. We mentioned uB's having some godawful afterlag? Yeah, that's Marth. If he's ever forced to recover using uB on the right side, He's going to be punished by anything you want OoS. Gimp game isn't going to be so hot here, as the side platforms scroll out every 7 or 8 seconds and last a good amount of time.

 

[Samuelson]

Luigis Mansion is always a good stage for Lucario

 

[Tomkraven]

Marth sure is a hard matchup for lucario. In first place, he has very good combo abilities such as ShFair to utilt to utilt in low-mid percentages and fthrow to tipper fsmash from 0-10%. He neutralizes our AS at almost any percentage and his fair outranges most of our aerial aproaches and his ground game is at all bad.

DB is a good combo breaker/starter as it begins very quicky and his tipper Fsmash is 80%+ KO. And dont forget his hard but still possible to land spike that will send us back to sinnoh is we dont dodge it.

IMO this one of lucarios hardest matchups but this doesnt mean that we are going to stand still while he juggles us around the stage right?
He have awesome combos, a godly recovery, good gimping abilities, a very good projectile and the disjointed lingering hitboxes in our favor. All that said, ill estimate a 55:45 advantage to marth.

 

[Pentaoku]

Eh I don't have much to add since I haven't played a high level Marth player.

Just it's annoying when you try to grab but you miss since lots of Marth's attacks seem to make him take a step or lean forward, like f-smash.

 

[Kino]

I agree with alot that Tomkraven said.
I won't repeat his points but ill continue from the ones hes made. I think platforms work for lucario in this matchup because we can utilise our dair unexpectadly by dropping through a platform, but we have to be quick and dash then fall through otherwise his utilt will make us look like a fool.

Lucario is very much like Marth in that he needs good spacing to stand a chance against most characters. Marth has more moves that flourish when tipped though, and imo has better anti-approach moves to work against Lucario than Lucario has to work against Marth, Marth can use utilt and ftilt or even a sh fair while di'ing backwards to stop our sh aerial game. Dont forget that Lucario's AS is rendered useless as a anti-approach against Marth because of his A attack, it pops out so quick and gets rid of the AS well.

One thing that Lucario has over Marth is recovery, so its good to use a map like FD that has a lot of space without any ground that you have to float past to get safe again, Marth isnt a very good aggressive edgegaurder against us as he can't come far of the stage on most stages without risking death, if Marth does try to get a premature stock out of you by coming of the stage, its always a good idea to let yourself fall more low than usual and utilise the length of Lucario's UpB, Marth either won't fall for it or he will lose a stock because he cant handle coming out to far on certain maps, he can easily get trapped trying to UpB on FD.

Overall i have to say that marth has it 55:45, he plays a cautious spacing game better than Lucario, but a good Lucario player can adapt and cause a lot of problems off the stage and on it also.

 

[Timbers]

Platforms enforce aerial combat. Marth's air game>yours.

Why would you go platforms?

 

[Tomkraven]

Platforms enforce aerial combat. Marth's air game>yours.

Why would you go platforms?

i think that he meant to jump and drop from platforms and then dair quickly. but still is not quite a good idea as he just needs to space a little and then FSMASH!.

 

[dguy6789]

Using platforms to hit someone with dair is only a good idea if their upward moves aren't amazing. Marth's are.

 

[phi1ny3]

I agree with alot that Tomkraven said.
I won't repeat his points but ill continue from the ones hes made. I think platforms work for lucario in this matchup because we can utilise our dair unexpectadly by dropping through a platform, but we have to be quick and dash then fall through otherwise his utilt will make us look like a fool.

Lucario is very much like Marth in that he needs good spacing to stand a chance against most characters. Marth has more moves that flourish when tipped though, and imo has better anti-approach moves to work against Lucario than Lucario has to work against Marth, Marth can use utilt and ftilt or even a sh fair while di'ing backwards to stop our sh aerial game. Dont forget that Lucario's AS is rendered useless as a anti-approach against Marth because of his A attack, it pops out so quick and gets rid of the AS well.

One thing that Lucario has over Marth is recovery, so its good to use a map like FD that has a lot of space without any ground that you have to float past to get safe again, Marth isnt a very good aggressive edgegaurder against us as he can't come far of the stage on most stages without risking death, if Marth does try to get a premature stock out of you by coming of the stage, its always a good idea to let yourself fall more low than usual and utilise the length of Lucario's UpB, Marth either won't fall for it or he will lose a stock because he cant handle coming out to far on certain maps, he can easily get trapped trying to UpB on FD.

Overall i have to say that marth has it 55:45, he plays a cautious spacing game better than Lucario, but a good Lucario player can adapt and cause a lot of problems off the stage and on it also.

I agree with much that this entails, but I do have to say that AS is not as bad an idea as you think. A, while fast, is not the best for a marth who wants to get at you, as it is a wee bit tricky to throw out. I'll put it this way, don't use BAS as a damager, use it as a dispeller/distractor. Watch out for his SH game, it comes fast. Overall, I would get used to using the different defensive tech's, and trade between being the one to initiate an attack, and one to wait for the attack. Watch out for spacing mindgames, otherwise he'll sucker you with a Dancing Blade, fsmash/tilt, or an aerial. Luckily, while Dsmash is a worry, Marth is otherwise a very linear char, and most aggressive Marth's rely on a "trainwreck" momentum. If you can break it in his SH, you have a chance to punish. Take advantage of your Fsmash>Marth's fsmash in range. Besides these additions, I agree with most of what this post says.

 

[Browny]

hmm this needs more emphasis on marths recovery. everytime i watch a video, and someone doesnt rolldodge -> edgehog i die a little inside. such a glaring weakness is marths otherwise near perfect moveset needs to be abused at every opportunity, not just for lucario. for those who dont know, when someone like marth is off stage, roll dodge to the edge of the stage, then as soon as marth enters the range from which he can sweetspot the edge, press down-diagonal in the direction towards where the enemy is trying to recover from. even if you somehow misstime it, there is no risk whatsoever in doing this once you get the timing down, and will always lead to a free ledge get-up attack anyway.

USE THIS

 

[Timbers]

Most marths aren't going to be ***** by invincibility frames unless they've already used their second jump. If you knock them out of their midair, then he's even more helpless than a Lucario who's lost his midair.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Marth isn't a hard counter for lucario imo, but i always switch to falco just because marth is a jerk. He loves his fair as much as we love our dair. He loves his counter like my ex liked chocolate. And he loves his priority like my cousin (3 years old) likes Thomas the Tank Engine. Lucario WILL NOT beat him midrange, lucario can actually stand a chance up close, but only after an opening. And at least you have AS to get something. I just tend to use AS to keep marth on his toes as he approaches. Going for lengthy combos like utilt chains is a bad idea because they have counter. You just need to be close enough for a grab or an AA>? combo and hope for the best after that. Oh and watch out for his spike!

60:40 marth maybe 65:35, he just wins in too many categories to not have the advantage and we dont have an amazing tactic to take him down, sadly.

 

[Timbers]

Being close to him is a terrible idea. Dancing blades will **** you so very hard.

He's going to zone you so that he's far enough to stay away from your attacks, but close enough where trying to charge an aurasphere will get you punished.

 

[Browny]

hmmm. i think i might have to upload some of my lucario v marth vids. maybe someone can give me an indication of whether or not im any better than the person im playing against, but i still dont see what marth has thats so threatening that would warrant anything near a 35:65

 

[Timbers]

40:60, really. 35:65 is definitely putting it too far into his favor.

Go ahead and upload them if you want, but be warned that the Marth may be nitpicked regarding his capabilities if you're really having no trouble with him <.<

 

[Tomkraven]

dont you think that 60:40 is too rushed... theres like 4 more days to discuss this

 

[Greenstreet]

mmm i wud like to say that i think its in lucario's favour becuase wenever playing a marth i always find it an easy match and can easily take a lv9 marth only losing one life (10 stock) but i'll admit human behaviour does alter...
behaviour: a marth will most likely b an offensive player, they will run at you knowing that their sword will outrange you. they are a big fan of their aerials, due to their large range also. they will often sprint at you and the jump over to begin a string of attacks. they tend to save their counter for wen ur damage is reaching critical (so u wont be expecting), assuring the ko.

 

[Greenstreet]

gimping shud b the main approach to winning as well as a good use of projectiles... infact using projectiles to gimp is an easy solution. wen marth runs at you, let him... roll out and tilt. get some good combos in then back off and fire off an aura sphere (preferably charged). Rolling will save you against marth. it mite even buy enuff time to get a smash in. but stick to the bread and butter a a fpgrab... get the damage hi, get them off the edge and time some charged aura spheres till they are too far out to get back. either that or chase them off the edge to complete the gimp. since marths recovery is mostly vertical itll b less successful hitting em down. aura sphere will knock them horizontally. (well 30 degree)

 

[Tristan_win]

I'm loving how this thread is set up but if I can make one suggestion

Since all Sheik users don't use Zelda for their game play but a large number of them do I would suggest making a new section detailing how to fight a Sheik/Zelda hybrid in a separate section

Edit: Greenstreet please don't double post, it's better to edit your previous post then to make a completely new post.

 

[Greenstreet]

my bad... i was dictatin to some1 and i thought they went edit... once again my bad
we havent done sheik / zelda tho yet have we?

 

[Ilucamy]

I haven't read what you guys have said about Marth yet, but I can give a little real simplistic information.

1. His neutral B, Shield Breaker has the following qualities: It breaks shields in 1 hit fully charged, and brings them down to the size of a pea with an uncharged. If it hits with the tip, it has the most knockback of all of Marth's moves. If used in the air, it will propel him forward a lot, and can be used for recovery. (I'm pretty sure the hitbox is only out the first few seconds, while he is flying forward, it's no threat)

2. His Side-B, Dancing Blade: If the third hit is angled down, it can be used as a spike. If the upward combo is used, it sets up very well for his aerial combat. The side combo can be used as a mediocre, but fast killer. The down combo can be used as a damage racker. He will use it to turn around, and it has a very fast start up time.

3. Up-B, Dolphin Slash: It has invincibility frames on startup not sure what they are though. It's auto-sweetspots, and it is actually a very good killer.

4. His Dair is a spike, but it has TONS of lag, he will rarely ever use this, and if he does, it will never be on the stage. If he does, and he wiffs it, make sure to punish.

5. His Bair turns him around, that's pretty much it, but it's still powerful.


Also, I know I'm kind of late on this, but I did some research on ZSS's spike. It turns out, if she has perfect spacing, and you're right next to the edge, she can D-Smash > D-Smash > Down-B spike as low as 17% on Lucario, and you will die. It's not much of a threat until around 50% though.

 

[Timbers]

mmm i wud like to say that i think its in lucario's favour becuase wenever playing a marth i always find it an easy match and can easily take a lv9 marth only losing one life (10 stock) but i'll admit human behaviour does alter...
behaviour: a marth will most likely b an offensive player, they will run at you knowing that their sword will outrange you. they are a big fan of their aerials, due to their large range also. they will often sprint at you and the jump over to begin a string of attacks. they tend to save their counter for wen ur damage is reaching critical (so u wont be expecting), assuring the ko.

Please don't use CPUs as a base for your reasoning.

I'm loving how this thread is set up but if I can make one suggestion

Since all Sheik users don't use Zelda for their game play but a large number of them do I would suggest making a new section detailing how to fight a Sheik/Zelda hybrid in a separate section

Edit: Greenstreet please don't double post, it's better to edit your previous post then to make a completely new post.

Making an entirely new slot for Zelda/Sheik may be too much. If Zelda turns into Sheik, then the match becomes much easier for Lucario. If Sheik turns into Zelda, then the match becomes harder and you're dead at 110%.

I don't really see a reason to have a seperate slot for this, as I, myself, couldn't write anymore than a paragraph on what would be different.

If you care to enlighten us, then go ahead.

 

[Greenstreet]

i dont hav any1 one to play with cpu's are my only option...

 

[James Sparrow]

this thread is ****ing awesome.

 

[Greenstreet]

i do not even know if that is sarcastic sparrow

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Being close to him is a terrible idea. Dancing blades will **** you so very hard.

He's going to zone you so that he's far enough to stay away from your attacks, but close enough where trying to charge an aurasphere will get you punished.

that's why i said "only after an opening" as in a BAS that sneaked through in a ZSS stun gun-ish scenario. I'm not a complete idiot, Marth will **** us (if he swings that way) close range and work his way out of that to a fsmash at midrange if lucario just runs into his sword

I'm loving how this thread is set up but if I can make one suggestion

Since all Sheik users don't use Zelda for their game play but a large number of them do I would suggest making a new section detailing how to fight a Sheik/Zelda hybrid in a separate section

it makes since for tourney standings to say that a person used sheik/zelda versus straight up sheik or zelda, but that doesn't mean the matchups should detail this combo. The only time it's "safe" to transform is after a star KO or a nice across the stage shot. it's not like you will fight both of them in a way that you get combo'd from a sheik ftilt to a zelda fair (but that would be ******* awesome!). The only thing the lucario has to do is adapt from a character that can kill fast, beat his projectile, fast smashes, uber priority smashes, AND reflect AS to a character that of those advantages only has the fast smashes. Plus sheik is easier to combo :/.

Honestly, as a zelda secondary and a zelda mainer for the first few months of brawl, i find it easier to switch as zelda than as sheik, but since the argument is "rack as sheik, kill as zelda" i find the idea pointless. Either stay sheik or stay zelda unless you need a change because you're losing badly. But that's something for the zelda boards i guess.

 

[Kino]

Using platforms to hit someone with dair is only a good idea if their upward moves aren't amazing. Marth's are.

Yeah i admit i think its not quite an advantage to lucario on platforms.

and i also agree with phi1ny3 who mentioned using AS as a move to slow down his approaches and to frustrate him.
Mindgames is where Marth excels and if we can fight back with some frustrating strats ourselves we can have a chance.
One thing I like doing against Marth in particular is, when he gets me in the air, ill be DI'ing away from him, but if hes getting himself ready to follow it up ill dair to slow my momentum and if i time it perfectly he will miss his utilt just in time for a dair to the face. its very hard to do because of the utilts hitbox and short lag, but it can get amazingly frustrating to be fooled by the Dair.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

hmm this needs more emphasis on marths recovery. everytime i watch a video, and someone doesnt rolldodge -> edgehog i die a little inside. such a glaring weakness is marths otherwise near perfect moveset needs to be abused at every opportunity, not just for lucario. for those who dont know, when someone like marth is off stage, roll dodge to the edge of the stage, then as soon as marth enters the range from which he can sweetspot the edge, press down-diagonal in the direction towards where the enemy is trying to recover from. even if you somehow misstime it, there is no risk whatsoever in doing this once you get the timing down, and will always lead to a free ledge get-up attack anyway.

USE THIS

Most marths aren't going to be ***** by invincibility frames unless they've already used their second jump. If you knock them out of their midair, then he's even more helpless than a Lucario who's lost his midair.

In what cases are Marth's going to be off the edge where they would need to Up B to get back on the ledge AND still have their second jump?

If this happens they could...

A.) Jump again and Up B to make in on the ledge even if you Hog it which then you could come off the ledge and punish their descent.

B.) Jump again and Up B to try and sweet spot the ledge only to miss it and fall to their death if they were too far away.

C.) Jump again and for some reason make it under the lip of a stage or under the stage itself and then Up B to hit their heads and get a bump for being silly.

D.) Not Jump again and Up B and come short of the stage and die.

I don't think I understand what Timbers was trying to say here?

 

[Timbers]

Marth has to save his midair jump until right before he uses his dolphin slash, or he risks getting edgehogged by a character using invincibility frames. His initial dancing blade stalls him a great amount if he uses it while ascending with his midair, and can force people off the ledge if they try edgehogging during invincibility frames.

Okay now, if he's hit away anytime after he uses that midair jump, he's screwed. He cannot effectively stall anymore, and his horizontal recovery is pretty bad. If he loses the midair, he loses the stock, basically.

 

[Zero_Gamer]

But then we come across a couple of problems gimping him. His aerials have amazing priority and range and can minimize the effectness of edgeguarding and his falling speed isn't that bad, he can easily just float near the stage and then jump on it. And for some reason, Marth is always knocked UP into the air... by anything! It's really friggin' annoying seeing someone recover without really doing anything.

However, yes, once you manage to bring him to a lower level off the stage, without his midair jump, Marth is in a LOT of trouble. You can try Fairs, they are wonderful for gimps, but he can Fair you more easily than you can to him, but not by a huge margin. I would recommend an offstage Baby Aura Sphere because he can't DI it into a favorable situation and it will safely and easily take away the midair jump.

Oh and, I've never tested this out yet, it just came to me while typing this. I would appreciate it if others were to test this out for me though. You know how, you're just standing at the ledge and when Marth sweetspots his UpB you get hurt a little? What if we were to predict that (easy, given it's linear recovery and sweetspot requirements) and then Reverse DT? Hypothetically speaking, this could be a very easy stage spike because we would attack right when Marth's invincibility frames are over.

 

[Timbers]

Marth would still be invincibility frames. It was a good idea though =P

I was defending Marth's recovery, actually. Not criticizing it.

 

[Sparkz147]

Hey I'm new to the thread but I have a lot of experience fighting a Marth as my best friend only uses him. In fact I started using Lucario because my current main, Sonic, had no ranged attacks and was completely outclassed half of the time.
Lucario's one main advantage is his single ranged attack. However, its not just the actual attack that is useful. Just like the other chargeable neutral b attacks your can rolling dodge out of at and that can confuse the hell out of a Marth player because you can escape from any situation and charge up your attack at the same time. You have to use it well and often, a lot of the time it should be multiple baby spheres.
As for main approach the best way is definitely not aerial but to everyone that is plainly obvious unless your timing is perfect as Lucario's fair has minimally more reach than Marth's. The best way for quick damage would have to be to get yourself into the right position and use the typical three hit combo: a, a, forward b and then top it off with another one. This must obviously done at relatively low percentages to get the second side b but if you try and get another one in the most often response is an up b from my opponent as it gets me away quick. If predicted this can obviously be turned into an advantage with a slightly charged smash or another combo attack.
As for the recent discussion of how to handle Marth's recovery I would just simply drop down and activate a fair if he's low and recovering safely with an up b. If he's high then you don't have much of a chance keeping him off because if he's smart he'll use a counter to prevent you from knocking him any further and easily recovery with an up b and possibly assist himself with a neutral b making it really easy for him. Of course if he isn't then with a fully charged aura sphere after a few fairs and you should be fine. Although, once again, a counter can be predicted by holding yourself in the air with a dair and waiting for the counter to finish before blowing him away. As a possible addition a well timed side b could send him far enough away. After all if he's been sent far enough away from the stage that he's in a position of needing to recovery, then a side b should be enough so that he definitely can't get back.
I think I've given my two cents. Hope it may have been a help to some people.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Good stuff, guys.

I've got enough to start writing How to Win, and I'm going to add F-smash to Fundamental Moves. I would like a little more discussion on Behavior and Recommended Stages.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Another thing Lucario has going for him in the Marth match up: he has the ability to punish the lag at the end of Marth's attacks due to how little lag he has on his own. He also has a fast dodge with which to take advantage of Marth's semi-linear nature.

For example, Shield breaker is Marth's rangiest attack. At ANY time that Marth can hit you with shield breaker (any time Lucario is within range) Lucario can side dodge behind Marth and punish him for it. It helps that sheild breaker isn't fast to activate either.

 

[Browny]

recommended stages...

easily FD, marths recovery fails there, its so easy to time an edgehog when his sweetspot range is drastically shortened due to the lip.

lylat cruise and BF are just bad stages all round

 

[Timbers]

Just don't make a habit on rolling behind Marth. It only takes him 4 frames to hit you with dancing blades, even if you are behind him. <_<

You are right about Marth having to commit to his moves, though. Dtilt is the only thing he really has that is incredibly good to force an opponent's action.