~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[Timbers]

Milinnnnnnnnn

'sup lol

His bair is a good move. Saying it's the greatest thing since Snake ftilt is definitely pushing it though. <.<

 

[tedward2000]

I do think that Timbers won the "award" again.

Unless someone can combat the amount of info that has all ready be said.

But theres not enough juice to grant anything.

I gold star timbers for sheer workmanship and over productiveness.
and the rest of the cast that has contributed, seriously we've only done two characters, and there's already a wall of info.
-t2

 

[Baky]

Too much bias. Not enough experience.

Kinda reason why I refuse to respond with something developed.

This needs vids. Otherwise I'd say it should remain neutral.

Like I said...too much bias, not enough experience...

 

[Timbers]

Too much bias. Not enough experience.

Kinda reason why I refuse to respond with something developed.

This needs vids. Otherwise I'd say it should remain neutral.

Like I said...too much bias, not enough experience...

I wouldn't be responding if I didn't have experience with the matchup. It was just luck that the first two characters were Mario and DK. Assuming we're going in order of the strip that Jeepy posted, I'm not going to be contributing much to the thread in the near future. Link, Samus, Zamus, Yoshi, and Kirby are all characters I'm unfamiliar with when playing as Lucario.

Vids would be good though.

EDIT: And I do hope everyone here that has responded has had at least adequate experience in playing the matchup. This thread just simply won't work if everyone is spending so much time pointing out other character's flaws, but can only emphasize the good characteristics of Lucario. Theory just doesn't work in Smash.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

EDIT


What I said was uncalled for


EDIT

 

[Baky]

---EDITED---

Anyone can post. Becoming knowledgeable of a characters moveset does not make you qualified. If so I'd respond much more.

I can't disprove your experience but you haven't proved it.

Saying stuff for the hell of it really isn't worth the space it takes.

I think my arguments out well, but thanks for the concern.

I'm personally confident in what Timbers says. He at least attempts to argue without allowing people to knock holes in everything he says.

But considering how controversial DK vs Lucario is, I think it deserves a review in the future. Let the metagame develop for a more absolute answer. Or provide your visual evidence and lets get this over with NAO!

 

[Timbers]

I'm personally confident in what Timbers says. He at least attempts to argue without allowing people to knock holes in everything he says.

=3

But considering how controversial DK vs Lucario is, I think it deserves a review in the future. Let the metagame develop for a more absolute answer. Or provide your visual evidence and lets get this over with NAO!

I think everyone's kind of agreed on it being 50:50, or 55:45. I think only one person has wanted a 60:40 in Luc's favor. The majority believe it to be a neutral matchup, but for different reasons.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

=3



I think everyone's kind of agreed on it being 50:50, or 55:45. I think only one person has wanted a 60:40 in Luc's favor. The majority believe it to be a neutral matchup, but for different reasons.

Infi-tan, djbrowny, myself and I believe Nordak and NESSBOUNDER all believe this match up is in Lucario's Favor.

The other 1/2 have pretty much said neutral.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

SkyWorld is also a good stage if you like Gimping DK's Recovery, you can tech off the platforms to stay alive longer and ledge-hog/airplay to get quick kills in (also use some throws as stage spikes on the floaty overhang platforms

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

New Discovery!

Dash Attack Cancels out an un-fully charged Donkey Punch!

 

[Timbers]

Infi-tan, djbrowny, myself and I believe Nordak and NESSBOUNDER all believe this match up is in Lucario's Favor.

The other 1/2 have pretty much said neutral.

I was just reading Jeepy's post on the last page. Everyone he quoted had basically said 55:45, 40:60, or neutral. I don't remember Nordak or NESSBOUNDER saying anything on the matter.

SkyWorld is also a good stage if you like Gimping DK's Recovery, you can tech off the platforms to stay alive longer and ledge-hog/airplay to get quick kills in (also use some throws as stage spikes on the floaty overhang platforms

It's a pretty lame stage. Anything he can do you can do better, but the fact that he can do it makes it scary.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

I was just reading Jeepy's post on the last page. Everyone he quoted had basically said 55:45, 40:60, or neutral. I don't remember Nordak or NESSBOUNDER saying anything on the matter.

Then maybe you should go back and read what those people in question said in their own post rather than in someone else's post.... >_>

It's a pretty lame stage.

I don't like using the A-Button it is a lame button why can't it be something like a Q button.. Q is a much better letter.

Anything he can do you can do better, but the fact that he can do it makes it scary.

I don't even know where to begin with this... umm first... are you agreeing with me that it is a good stage? second... what?!

 

[Browny]

everyone try something for me.

get someone else to play lucario, who doesnt main him, and you use DK. give them specific instructions to NOT roll towards DK under any circumstances, and abuse the hell out of AS camping. attempt to land a KO move with DK on lucario, and proceed to pull out your hair in frustration

 

[Timbers]

Then maybe you should go back and read what those people in question said in their own post rather than in someone else's post.... >_>

I hate sounding rude. Yes I read them, but making it a reference to Jeepy's post wouldn't sound so insulting. I read them. I thought they were very inaccurate posts. Milin's was the only one to really have any backbone to it. Everything else was "lawl DK's killmoves are predictable/he has no projectile/DISJOINTED HITBOXES YES." Nessbounder mentioned a chaingrab..that's it, and Nodrak admitted to having little experience with the matchup.

Stop trying to call me out on dumb stuff. You know very well that had nothing to do with Lucario vs. DK

I don't like using the A-Button it is a lame button why can't it be something like a Q button.. Q is a much better letter.

The A button doesn't stagespike you at 20%, sorry.

I don't even know where to begin with this... umm first... are you agreeing with me that it is a good stage? second... what?!

I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing.

You're getting a bit more personal with this and getting away from the actual topic. If you want to continue throwing personal remarks out there that's actually irrelevant and well, immature, then PM me about it, or this thread's going to get cluttered.

everyone try something for me.

get someone else to play lucario, who doesnt main him, and you use DK. give them specific instructions to NOT roll towards DK under any circumstances, and abuse the hell out of AS camping. attempt to land a KO move with DK on lucario, and proceed to pull out your hair in frustration

Except aurasphere has a considerable amount of afterlag, and bairs eat right through BAS. You're also going to eat a sideB if you keep cornering yourself trying to spam him. If you're telling them not to roll into DK, then you just forced that Lucario to either keep his shield up or jump away. Option 1 will get your shield broken if it's predictable. Option 2 will get a monkeyfoot to the face. DK's dsmash works a lot better out of shield than people would think.

I'll be sure to let you know how it goes though.

EDIT: Played a 3 minute match for replay purposes. First stock he lost due to a shieldgrab cargo spike at 70%. Then he killed me at 182% when he was at ~130%. Then he died to a bair because, as I said, bair eats through aurasphere and hits you <.<

On his second stock I had two opportunities to kill him, but I didn't for the sole purpose of your experiment. The first time was a powershielded BAS into grab that I could have cargo spiked with, and then shortly after at 120% I headbutted him, which could have had devastating consequences <.<

But I'm going to say it again. You want to stay away from the **** ledge against DK. His ledge pressure is great.

I am such a pro DK player (lolnot) The replay is hilarious =3

 

[mr_kennedy44]

I'm still firm with my opinion of 55 Luc - 45 DK but the idea of a 50-50 even match I'm fine with.

Skyworld is just a terrible stage in general. It also plays more to DK's strength's in a way though. DK can stagespike Lucario while he is standing on the bottom level. They can both be gimped easily but DK is better suited fot it.

 

[dguy6789]

Skyworld isn't allowed in competitive play, so discussion involving the stage is pointless. If this matchup thread is only going to have green, grey, and red for the matchup, then this matchup is grey. There is no need to discuss whether it is 55:45, 50:50, or 45:55, the three of these are all basically the same thing.

 

[Timbers]

Skyworld isn't allowed in competitive play, so discussion involving the stage is pointless. If this matchup thread is only going to have green, grey, and red for the matchup, then this matchup is grey. There is no need to discuss whether it is 55:45, 50:50, or 45:55, the three of these are all basically the same thing.

That's not what the discussion is about. The 60:40/Lucario-defeats-DK-in-every-aspect is what's being discussed.

I was well aware about Skyworld, but I didn't want to brew anymore bad blood between OneWingedAngelo.

And regarding the colors. I seriously think it needs a severe disadvantage/disadvantage/neutral/advantage/severe advantage. With three colors, Even a 60:40 or 40:60 would still be neutral. Lets throw up some more colors there, or just different hues of green/red.

Severe disadvantage: 0:100-20:80
Disadvantage: 30:70-40:60
Neutral: 50:50
Advantage: 60:40-70:30
Severe Advantage: 80:20-100:0

55:45 and all that stuff can just be rounded. I'm honestly not sure why we're now dividing the match into 20 instead of 10. It's a best of 10, we can keep it that way. 50:50 or 60:40.

 

[dguy6789]

Lucario does not beat DK in every aspect, just most. The only reason that DK can hold his own vs Lucario is because of his resistance to being killed and his ability to kill Lucario early on. Lucario has to be at a high % and have DK at a high % to get kills easily, but vs DK, Lucario can not remain at that status for very long, one mistake and he loses the stock.

 

[tedward2000]

Why are we still debating %:% still?
It is quite understood that we have come to some number more or less around 50:50.
that portion of this character discussion is just wasting effort and time.
We will never get a exact answer because this match up to heavily relies on skill and fault.
So stop trying to give an exact answer. It won't work.
-t2

 

[Timbers]

There's obviously still some type of miscommunication and debate about the matchup. Even if people think it's relatively even, the reasons regarding the match are still unclear. I think the biggest issue is whether or not camping is effective enough to give Luc the edge in the match, and if Luc's spacing game really does dominate DK or not.

If we're giving this discussion a full week, then we still have a good two more days to talk about this. If people still feel the need to iron out some characteristics about the match, then let them do so.

EDIT: Jeepy, there's a bit in the DK guide that would probably not make sense to anyone who hasn't read the conversation taking part in this thread. It kind of holds no weight to the actual DK character xD

A fresh one won't even kill Lucario at 120%.
Has a short hitbox duration.
Whoever said it would cancel out any Aura Sphere at any percent I call BS on. Any Aura sphere that'll do more than 20% (117% and Up for Fully Charged ones) Will hit DK .

I don't know if you intentionally added that, but it felt kind of out of place as a "fundamental move." Or if you did mean to include it, maybe elaborate more so a first time reader will understand what's going on.

 

[Seris]

watch for DK's air dodge to the ground into an immediate downsmash. Its deceptively fast and extremely powerful. It also has a single frame of super armor as soon as it starts so the only way to stop it is to grab or shield untill it is over.

 

[Browny]

if anyone attempts to airdodge into the ground, Aura sphere deals with that quite nicely.

so whos gonna be next... Zelda annoys the absolute hell out of my lucario, but besides her hax upsmash i dont think theres anything interesting to discuss :/

other than that i say Marth

 

[Kitamerby]

watch for DK's air dodge to the ground into an immediate downsmash. Its deceptively fast and extremely powerful. It also has a single frame of super armor as soon as it starts so the only way to stop it is to grab or shield untill it is over.

Dsmash has no super armor. It just has ALOT of priority. A single frame of super armor is NOT going to help you much at all, really.

Also, I hope G&W's next week. <.<

 

[mr_kennedy44]

I think Link is going to be next going by the order of Jeepy's chart. Looks like another character I'll be sitting out on.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

=3
I think everyone's kind of agreed on it being 50:50, or 55:45. I think only one person has wanted a 60:40 in Luc's favor. The majority believe it to be a neutral matchup, but for different reasons.

You make a statement on how you think the discussion went.

Infi-tan, djbrowny, myself and I believe Nordak and NESSBOUNDER all believe this match up is in Lucario's Favor.

The other 1/2 have pretty much said neutral.

I state how I think you are wrong.

I was just reading Jeepy's post on the last page. Everyone he quoted had basically said 55:45, 40:60, or neutral. I don't remember Nordak or NESSBOUNDER saying anything on the matter.

You tell us that you only looked at one person post for your information

Then maybe you should go back and read what those people in question said in their own post rather than in someone else's post.... >_>

I suggest that you should do your own research before making such comments instead of using someone else's

I hate sounding rude. Yes I read them, but making it a reference to Jeepy's post wouldn't sound so insulting. I read them. I thought they were very inaccurate posts. Milin's was the only one to really have any backbone to it. Everything else was "lawl DK's killmoves are predictable/he has no projectile/DISJOINTED HITBOXES YES." Nessbounder mentioned a chaingrab..that's it, and Nodrak admitted to having little experience with the matchup.

You get offeneded? Then discredit some people's input. I could phrase some of your posts just the same way as you did their...

I have also noticed that you only really respond to DK's good quallities as "His Back Air is too good lawlz" and "He can KO you so early Lawlz"

Stay calm. Calm Lucarios win.

-Infi-tan

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

The A button doesn't stagespike you at 20%, sorry.

Lets bring everything back into the picture....

I say...

SkyWorld is also a good stage if you like Gimping DK's Recovery, you can tech off the platforms to stay alive longer and ledge-hog/airplay to get quick kills in (also use some throws as stage spikes on the floaty overhang platforms

You say...

It's a pretty lame stage. Anything he can do you can do better, but the fact that he can do it makes it scary

I say...

I don't like using the A-Button it is a lame button why can't it be something like a Q button.. Q is a much better letter

You say...

The A button doesn't stagespike you at 20%, sorry.

Now to explain all of this...
I try and give another stage some credit for being a good stage to fight DK on AND I tell you why! You respond with [ sarcasm] oh so informative information [ /sarcasm]. Then I try to show you how you sound. Then you make a comment on something... I haven't quite figured out what spikes you at 20% and is connected to our conversation...

How does people respond to my Skyworld comment...

Mr.Kennedy...

Skyworld is just a terrible stage in general. It also plays more to DK's strength's in a way though. DK can stagespike Lucario while he is standing on the bottom level. They can both be gimped easily but DK is better suited fot it.

What I gathered from this you didn't like the stage because it gives us one of the strengths of DK. I think that last sentence meant that since DK is a character with spikes it makes him better at doing something that we weren't able to do without this stage. Both character have moves that will let the stage spike our opponent and our recovery is better, so as long as we react quick enough we can recover where they can't.

dguy...

Skyworld isn't allowed in competitive play, so discussion involving the stage is pointless. If this matchup thread is only going to have green, grey, and red for the matchup, then this matchup is grey. There is no need to discuss whether it is 55:45, 50:50, or 45:55, the three of these are all basically the same thing.

We have discussed before that different areas have different legal stages (this is legal in my area) so we should take all into account. But your concern for more pressing info is understandable. (I brought this stage up as something to distract myself from the current "debate") And I agree with your last statement completely... I am fighting for Green...it is proving to be more work then I thought to convince some people....


Back to Timber's Post

You're getting a bit more personal with this and getting away from the actual topic. If you want to continue throwing personal remarks out there that's actually irrelevant and well, immature, then PM me about it, or this thread's going to get cluttered.

I know nothing about you kid. It would make this very hard for me to bring your personal life into this discussion. I have explained why I have used select words that I have above.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Lucario does not beat DK in every aspect, just most. The only reason that DK can hold his own vs Lucario is because of his resistance to being killed and his ability to kill Lucario early on. Lucario has to be at a high % and have DK at a high % to get kills easily, but vs DK, Lucario can not remain at that status for very long, one mistake and he loses the stock.

So Lucario doesn't have the advantage because he beats DK in most aspects of the game....?

Oh... so all there has to be is a way to kill DK without having to straight up KO him *coughrecoverygimpingcough* *coughedgeguardingcough* and this should be in Lucario's favor then?

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

That's not what the discussion is about. The 60:40/Lucario-defeats-DK-in-every-aspect is what's being discussed.

I was well aware about Skyworld, but I didn't want to brew anymore bad blood between OneWingedAngelo.

Why does everyone drop the 1 at the end... it is kind of important but the reference can be made without it I guess...

And regarding the colors. I seriously think it needs a severe disadvantage/disadvantage/neutral/advantage/severe advantage. With three colors, Even a 60:40 or 40:60 would still be neutral. Lets throw up some more colors there, or just different hues of green/red.

Severe disadvantage: 0:100-20:80
Disadvantage: 30:70-40:60
Neutral: 50:50
Advantage: 60:40-70:30
Severe Advantage: 80:20-100:0

55:45 and all that stuff can just be rounded. I'm honestly not sure why we're now dividing the match into 20 instead of 10. It's a best of 10, we can keep it that way. 50:50 or 60:40.

First off who cares how much of an advantage you have after the point where they should probably counter pick a character against you (which if we are green to them they are red to us and red means you should probably counter pick a character).
And since we have a hard enough time trying to get people from the 50 to 60 range... why even bother getting a whole other devision of advantages of disadvantages... they are never going to come into place.

You set the color... and explain how intense of the color is with words.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

everyone try something for me.

get someone else to play lucario, who doesnt main him, and you use DK. give them specific instructions to NOT roll towards DK under any circumstances, and abuse the hell out of AS camping. attempt to land a KO move with DK on lucario, and proceed to pull out your hair in frustration

I believe he is trying to state the following... Proof through Extremes

If you can get even 2 stock by winning this way, just imagine if they actually play properly while only using this tactic where it is applicable.

On his second stock I had two opportunities to kill him, but I didn't for the sole purpose of your experiment. The first time was a powershielded BAS into grab that I could have cargo spiked with, and then shortly after at 120% I headbutted him, which could have had devastating consequences <.<

Umm you job in the experiment was to kill him... so how is NOT killing him was any help toward the experiment... good try though.. /nods....>_>

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

On the Main Page on Behaviors...

A DK can space well with bair. Don't underestimate it. You'll be forcing him to approach, but his bair is still a pretty good approach, and can space pretty **** well. You can throw some auraspheres at him to get him to turn around. His fair and nair is pretty bad and you can take advantage of this.
DK's tilts out range yours. DK's fsmash outranges yours. His dsmash is quicker than yours and has a larger reach (granted without hitting the sweetspots its a fairly weak attack) DK's got about as much speed on his attacks as you do, if not quicker (excluding the spikes)
-Timbers

I will have to disagree with a lot of the info here...

A DK can space well with bair. Don't underestimate it. You'll be forcing him to approach, but his bair is still a pretty good approach, and can space pretty **** well.

This seems like only a good approach if you are trying to spam Aura Spheres at him otherwise you could do the following to punish this approach...

1.) Forward Air, It has priority and range!
2.) Forward Tilt, It has multiple hits and is pretty fast.
3.) Shield>>Up Tilt, There is no move that DK has in the air that can be faster then Up Tilt out of shield as long as you buffer it properly

DK's tilts out range yours. DK's fsmash outranges yours. His dsmash is quicker than yours and has a larger reach (granted without hitting the sweetspots its a fairly weak attack)

All this says is...

1.) Don't use your tilts to counter his tilts
2.) Don't use your Smashes to counter his smashs**

** Our Forward Smash out ranges his and is just as fast or not noticeably enough slower.

 

[dguy6789]

So Lucario doesn't have the advantage because he beats DK in most aspects of the game....?

Oh... so all there has to be is a way to kill DK without having to straight up KO him *coughrecoverygimpingcough* *coughedgeguardingcough* and this should be in Lucario's favor then?

If this match isn't 50/50, it would be 55/45 or 60/40 in Lucario's favor, but not any further than that. A Lucario vs DK fight pretty much involves Lucario getting hit once for every 3-5 hits he lands on DK. This would normally seem like domination, but not in this case. DK can kill Lucario very reliably at 70-80% on the majority of tournament legal stages, while Lucario can not kill DK reliably unless both are at a pretty high percentage.

If Lucario has 0% and DK has 90%, outside of gimps, you won't kill DK until you are at killable percent also the vast majority of the time. Lucario can not kill DK unless Lucario is also in the kill range of DK. This attribute that DK has is what makes the match mostly even. At this point then, whoever gets the kill is more about who is the better player.

Gimps exist, but they exist on both sides of the table. You can't expect to gimp every DK player you fight every single stock of every match you play, it isn't going to happen. It isn't the answer to beating DK. If your opponent is good enough for you to consider them a threat, then surely they are good enough to learn not to get gimped over and over. DK in particular doesn't even have to try too hard to avoid getting gimped, unlike Olimar, Ivysaur, and Ganon.

Skyworld doesn't need to be discussed because it isn't a tournament worthy stage. If your area hasn't banned it yet, it will in the future, bet any amount of money on it. Every single major tournament scene for Brawl has already banned it.

Call this match 50/50, 55/45, 60/40, it doesn't really matter, whoever the better player is is going to win between the two characters.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

WOW!!!! OneWingedAngel, you just made 5 posts in a row! Don't do it again! Use the freakin' edit button!

As a side note, you're posts reflect immaturity. Calm down and post something intelligent, rather than ranting.

Skyworld is banned. End of story. Do I really need to post ANOTHER link to the official list of legal stages? It's back on page...I don't know, 12? 11? Somewhere around there. I don't post very often either so it's pretty easy to find it. Look there if you have any questions on what stages are legal. And only look at the lists that myself or After Dawn make, because they are the only lists that reflect the community as a whole. All the other lists are just the biased opinions of the poster.

I would say that DK has the advantage. Actually...I think this match is very close to even. I think it's either even or slightly in DK's favor. This match kind of reminds of D3, only without a stupid CG. DK's a really big target, so you can't miss very often against him. Aus is awesome against him. He does kill you at very low percentages though, as he'll use that darned d-smash and use your poor vertical knockback resistance against you. Those two points kind of balance each other out though, as he is very big and hard to miss. Plus you've got the FPCG, eh?

 

[Timbers]

I have also noticed that you only really respond to DK's good quallities as "His Back Air is too good lawlz" and "He can KO you so early Lawlz"

Ledge pressure and superior spacing.

Everything else you just said doesn't help this thread at all. If you have any problems with me, PM me about it. You're going to ruin this thread otherwise.

Also DK's bair will outspace your fair. If you happen to trade hits, you take 13% damage, and he takes 4-6%.

I have a replay of DK cancelling out Lucario's utilt and hitting him as well with the bair. Just thought I'd point that out. His fsmash outranges ours. I don't have actual frame data on speeds though, it seems they're rather the same in speed. .Please if you're going to say anything, make sure what you're saying is accurate information. Stuff as simple as this is the reason why I'm not 100% set on believing what you say to be fully correct.

Also keep in mind that, as you can footstool his recovery, he also has 3 different spikes he can hit you with, and I'm sure you're going to be landing footstools as often as he's landing spikes. He has SA frames in the beginning of his uB, I'm sure he's going to take advantage of that and not let himself get gimped.

With the experiment, I wanted to see how long it took Lucario to kill DK using this method of fullout camping. If I killed him and brought his percentage back to 0%, I probably wouldn't have even died in the 3 minutes of time.

The rest of your posts are just biased and ignorant, that really have nothing to do with the actual topic and more set on trying to pin me. I don't give a crap if you think I'm wrong, but if it really has nothing to do with DK vs. Lucario, then stop posting it here. There's a PM button for you to tell me how wrong you think I am.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Heated discussion and conflicting ideas= good.

Anger and hostility towards one another= bad.

Let's try to keep this a mature, productive discussion, guys. I'm seeing a lot of useful, interesting posts, and that's good. Let's keep the personal quarrels to PMs.



-----------------------

Seeing as about 5 million posts have been made since I last updated, yesterday, I'll start updating now.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Doesn't Lucario's bair outrange DK's bair? I thought I heard someone say that a while ago. Can someone verify that?

 

[Pentaoku]

If this match isn't 50/50, it would be 55/45 or 60/40 in Lucario's favor, but not any further than that. A Lucario vs DK fight pretty much involves Lucario getting hit once for every 3-5 hits he lands on DK. This would normally seem like domination, but not in this case. DK can kill Lucario very reliably at 70-80% on the majority of tournament legal stages, while Lucario can not kill DK reliably unless both are at a pretty high percentage.

If Lucario has 0% and DK has 90%, outside of gimps, you won't kill DK until you are at killable percent also the vast majority of the time. Lucario can not kill DK unless Lucario is also in the kill range of DK. This attribute that DK has is what makes the match mostly even. At this point then, whoever gets the kill is more about who is the better player.

Gimps exist, but they exist on both sides of the table. You can't expect to gimp every DK player you fight every single stock of every match you play, it isn't going to happen. It isn't the answer to beating DK. If your opponent is good enough for you to consider them a threat, then surely they are good enough to learn not to get gimped over and over. DK in particular doesn't even have to try too hard to avoid getting gimped, unlike Olimar, Ivysaur, and Ganon.

Skyworld doesn't need to be discussed because it isn't a tournament worthy stage. If your area hasn't banned it yet, it will in the future, bet any amount of money on it. Every single major tournament scene for Brawl has already banned it.

Call this match 50/50, 55/45, 60/40, it doesn't really matter, whoever the better player is is going to win between the two characters.

I agree with this pretty much.

 

[Timbers]

Doesn't Lucario's bair outrange DK's bair? I thought I heard someone say that a while ago. Can someone verify that?

If it doesn't outrange it, then it's probably very close to doing so. I'll check in a bit.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Just did a quick test, and it turns out DK's b-air out-ranges Lucario's. Not by much, though.

Luc's b-air has better priority and knockback.

 

[Timbers]

Just did a quick test, and it turns out DK's b-air out-ranges Lucario's. Not by much, though.

Luc's b-air has better priority and knockback.

I think Luc's bair has the same knockback as DK's when he's around 120% =[ but yeah, DK's bair will probably never be fresh, so knockback isn't that concerning regarding the move.

I'm really surprised that the bair has a shorter reach than DK's bair though. I thought they were at least even.

 

[tedward2000]

Im not near a wii, So I can't test this.
But on that Subject Timbers, Which of the Bair's is faster, meaning which one it preformed faster.
Lucario's or DK's?
thanks
-t2