~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[Timbers]

Here's what I can say:

-A DK can space well with bair. Don't underestimate it. You'll be forcing him to approach, but his bair is still a pretty good approach, and can space pretty **** well. You can throw some auraspheres at him to get him to turn around. His fair and nair is pretty bad and you can take advantage of this.

-Stay in the air whenever you're near DK. SideB will get you killed (if you're grounded) with donkeypunch/fsmash if you're anywhere over 70%.

-You should probably stay in the air at all times to begin with, if you're not chucking BAS at him. His ground game is pretty insane. You'll have a much harder time on the ground than you will in the air.

-His ftilt negates most auraspheres, just keep that in mind.

-All of your killmoves are now scary as hell to use. Personally I'd keep an AS fresh for the killer. Your smashes lag too much. If any whiff, you're going to get an fsmash or dsmash to the face. They HURT. I prefer bair and AS as killmoves in this matchup.

-Don't land on him, please lol. That usmash is beast.

-Recovery. He has a great horizontal recovery. Dair works on this for an added percent/finisher, but chances are you just helped him get back to the stage in an even easier fashion. You can gimp him because of his huge size, but it's definitely easier said than done. DK likes the middle of the stage, and he enjoys pressuring you to the edge.

All I can say. I'd put the match at 60:40 in DKs favor to be honest. He's heavy, and you're royally screwed if he kills you before you manage to take his stock. His ground game is sexy, killmoves are sexier.

 

[tedward2000]

Here's what I can say:

-A DK can space well with bair. Don't underestimate it. You'll be forcing him to approach, but his bair is still a pretty good approach, and can space pretty **** well. You can throw some auraspheres at him to get him to turn around. His fair and nair is pretty bad and you can take advantage of this.

-Stay in the air whenever you're near DK. SideB will get you killed (if you're grounded) with donkeypunch/fsmash if you're anywhere over 70%.

-You should probably stay in the air at all times to begin with, if you're not chucking BAS at him. His ground game is pretty insane. You'll have a much harder time on the ground than you will in the air.

-His ftilt negates most auraspheres, just keep that in mind.

-All of your killmoves are now scary as hell to use. Personally I'd keep an AS fresh for the killer. Your smashes lag too much. If any whiff, you're going to get an fsmash or dsmash to the face. They HURT. I prefer bair and AS as killmoves in this matchup.

-Don't land on him, please lol. That usmash is beast.

-Recovery. He has a great horizontal recovery. Dair works on this for an added percent/finisher, but chances are you just helped him get back to the stage in an even easier fashion. You can gimp him because of his huge size, but it's definitely easier said than done. DK likes the middle of the stage, and he enjoys pressuring you to the edge.

All I can say. I'd put the match at 60:40 in DKs favor to be honest. He's heavy, and you're royally screwed if he kills you before you manage to take his stock. His ground game is sexy, killmoves are sexier.

I disagree with some of what you said.
Staying in the air will keep you safe, but sense he's going to be grounded, and that "wicked" uptilt and smash of his is a problem, you won't be going very far.
Again, lucario has range and quick moves that gives him the upper hand in this fight. Lucarios fsmash (bit risky) is long, and if it hits, release the air demon.

Keeping your AS's flying is good to a degree. His dash and ftilt will negate a BAS at low %. And if he dashed, he's now closer to you, B.A.D idea on lucarios part.

And if he's pressuring you to the edge, thats good. You want DK to come to the edge, better for you to make him fall. If its at FD, Lucario will have a easier fight at the edge then DK. But watch out for the DK punch and smashes, they have wicked knockback.

And this fight is more in Lucario's favor then DK's.
Lucario has:
-speed
-range
-projectiles
-floatability/jump capability
-chains
-aura boost (iffy)
on his side

DK has:
-power
-health
-negation of some lucario's moves.

-t2
*edit
Oh and Lucario's moves are way more sexy then DKs.

 

[Timbers]

Staying in the air. That doesn't necessarily mean hover right in his usmash sweetspot. A bair to sideB will shieldbreak you. You can't play defense very long in this match. Staying on the ground sets you up for too many risky situations. I'm pretty sure DK's bair has more range than almost everything you have.

DK's tilts out range yours. DK's fsmash outranges yours. His dsmash is quicker than yours and has a larger reach (granted without hitting the sweetspots its a fairly weak attack) What speed B |? DK's got about as much speed on his attacks as you do, if not quicker (excluding the spikes)

And why is it a good thing that YOU are being pressured by HIM on the edge? Did you expect that you can grab him and throw him over the edge? That's not going to happen against a competent DK. His tilts are better than yours. His grab range is better than yours. You're not going to be grabbing him unless he whiffs. Plus yeah you're near the edge. That powerful fsmash he has just got 10x more deadlier. He can run up to YOU, grab YOU, and ledgespike YOU with his cargo throw. You want to stay away from the ledge just as much as DK does.

Lucario has:

-projectiles
-combo ability
-gimp potential

DK has:

-range
-powerful killmoves
-survivability

I'd put it 40:60, or 50:50

 

[tedward2000]

Speed, lucario's faster then DK.
And no, Lucaio's fsmash has more reach then DK's, but its very tight.
DK's smashes are faster though.

Lucario can dodge, spotdodge, lucario bonus-DT, just a well as DK. And if you do that near the edge, DK's little, wack-a-lucario plan will falter. Leaving Lucario the option to either run to the middle, and set up, or get DK in the air.

You have to play evasively against DK. Defensively, lucario is going to lose. A full DK punch will destroy a shield. Offencivly, If you can keep DK from attacking or hitting, and continue with your own barrage, it will be a even fight. Evasively, your throwing in the works.

Like you said, DK wants to stay away from the edge just as much as you do. But if you go to the edge, you can start ripping AS's (noted, semi to fully charged ones) at DK. Making him either pull back, or go to the "kill".
And one can assume that the lucario player is educated enough to know, that near an edge can mean death. And that they are going to do their best to NOT get grabbed, or hit while near an edge, and try to the the same to DK.
There's this thing called "Leading someone on", do the same to DK when at the edge. Bring him to you, and swap places. Now DK's at the edge and you Lucario are not.
Mindgames, they do things.

And its safe to say that DK vs. Lucario is a close 50:50.
But that all depends if the lucario player has half a brain or not.
-t2

*edit
I will say this, It is a close battle. Very close, it can change to any side, at any time.
This is even closer then it was with mario.
or more so to DK's favor then lucario's. But by a slim %

 

[Timbers]

I hope you're actually looking at this yourself before posting, if not you'll look pretty silly. Go to training mode if you don't believe me. DK's tilts are as quick/quicker than yours. His jabs are fast. His bair is the same speed as Lucario's, only more damaging and longer in range. The ftilt and utilt have more ending lag, though. Fsmashes are roughly the same, but DK's sweetspot is larger than Lucario's. I personally dislike BAS in this match, because the bair will eat right through it and hit you, but everyone's going to play this match differently.

Uncharged fsmash and sideB do more damage to shield than giant punch.

Everything else you mentioned you kind of just looped what you already said, and I answered already.

 

[Popertop]

I have more info regarding Mario.

He can use the ACE(Aerial Cape Extension) to follow you off the stage (about equal to his wavedash length in melee) and have more gimp options. This is only horizontal, but it would be good to be aware of this so you aren't taken by surprise.
Also, look into Mario's Fair. It's different this time. The sweetspot is now around Mario's head instead of right on his fist. There's a spike hitbox on the bottom of his head leading down to his chest a little, and a hitbox with some good vertical knockback on the top half of his head. I'm not sure how high the hitbox goes.

 

[tedward2000]

I never said anything about Lucario's tilts being faster.
You said before that DK's where faster.
Which I said nothing, meaning I agreed with you on that.

"I disagree with some of what you said" <--exact words, the things I disagreed with you, I wrote a counter response giving my reason. Those left blank, I agreed.

Here your arguing with me about tilts.
I didn't say a thing about tilts, because one, you where already right. So there was no point in me saying a thing about them.
Again you are correct
Everyone is going to play this differently.

-t2

 

[Nodrak]

It's too hot in my house to read all of that and actually retain any information so excuse me if I repeat anything, I'm just goin off of what I know. I rarely play a DK but...

On the ground DK can get evil, in the air he's harmless. DK can neutralize our Aura spheres with just any of his tilts (dtilt may miss due to wavey BAS though). BAS will be canceled out at any % and fully charged at lower percents with ftilt or utilt (assuming they don't just jump or shield it anyway). DK can outrange just about any of our attacks on the ground BUT he has no disjointed hitboxes meaning if you space yourself even further then normal, DK will miss and you'll hit his fist to damage him instead. DK is also not a small character nor is his crouch any good, SHfair works very well to start combo's and because of DK's weight; throws are easy to combo out of.

His aerials aren't that great except his bair, which is useless if your in front of him or using your own bair. His dair and fair both spike but are painfully slow (especially fair) so you can air dodge them at will. Lucario's aerials combo DK very easily as long as your sure not to get dair'ed.

I'm actually not sure what this matchup should be, like I said, I really have no experience with DK. The little experiance I do have against him with someone who main/second's him I've beaten him just about every time. Personally I'd give Lucario the advantage but again... I don't have much experience with DK users.

 

[Timbers]

I never said anything about Lucario's tilts being faster.
You said before that DK's where faster.
Which I said nothing, meaning I agreed with you on that.

"I disagree with some of what you said" <--exact words, the things I disagreed with you, I wrote a counter response giving my reason. Those left blank, I agreed.

Here your arguing with me about tilts.
I didn't say a thing about tilts, because one, you where already right. So there was no point in me saying a thing about them.
Again you are correct
Everyone is going to play this differently.

-t2

My post was centered around you saying lucario had an advantage in "speed" and "range," which DK seems to reap the same benefits, if not more. I only mentioned his tilts as part of his entire moveset.

What Nodrak said is right. If they're trying to WoP you with bairs, you can chuck a BAS at them and they become vulnerable. Bair isn't disjointed, but it's by no means bad. You should avoid using your own bair to counter his, as it is quite slow. He has a better spacing game than you do on the ground, but you can take advantage of him in the air. Just stay away from the bairs.

 

[dguy6789]

In terms of general combat, Lucario holds the upper hand in all but a few aspects. This is negated by the fact that DK is incredibly hard to KO and can KO Lucario extremely early. This could be 40/60, 50/50, or 60/40. Grey, neutral.

 

[tedward2000]

My post was centered around you saying lucario had an advantage in "speed" and "range," which DK seems to reap the same benefits, if not more. I only mentioned his tilts as part of his entire moveset.

What Nodrak said is right. If they're trying to WoP you with bairs, you can chuck a BAS at them and they become vulnerable. Bair isn't disjointed, but it's by no means bad. You should avoid using your own bair to counter his, as it is quite slow. He has a better spacing game than you do on the ground, but you can take advantage of him in the air. Just stay away from the bairs.

I was only mentioning speed, because lucario can be faster if chains are used. Like his wonderful A+A+"insert move here" chain.
But I am putting a stop to this argument.
I agree to disagree, or what ever you do to make amends.

I am done for tonight, a storms a'coming (yay rain!) and my internet has gone ka'put like 5 times already.

and Nodrak, turn on a fan or something. =)
-t2

 

[Timbers]

In terms of general combat, Lucario holds the upper hand in all but a few aspects. This is negated by the fact that DK is incredibly hard to KO and can KO Lucario extremely early. This could be 40/60, 50/50, or 60/40. Grey, neutral.

Truth. DK has little to no combo potential, whereas Luc can keep the strings going. It only takes a few hits from DK to put you in the redzone though, so it's still a dangerous matchup. It's very hard to avoid all of his killmoves for very long, and trying to take out DK when you're at low percents is just insanely difficult.

 

[PSYCHE]

It would be interesting to get some DK main perspective in here... Shall I go ask?

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

If need be we can camp the hell out of this match up... I really don't think DK has any advantage in this match up at all. If you play it smart you should win this match up.

 

[Timbers]

It would be interesting to get some DK main perspective in here... Shall I go ask?

I have no problem with it d=

If need be we can camp the hell out of this match up... I really don't think DK has any advantage in this match up at all. If you play it smart you should win this match up.

DK's a lot more agile than people give him credit for. It's a lot harder to camp him than it is the other heavies.

 

[mr_kennedy44]

Time to give my input. Unlike Mario I have actually mained DK in the past so I have some experience with him.

It has been said before. DK's b-air is godly. It has range, speed and is one of the best approach options in the game because DK can pull off two b-airs during a shorthop. That's about all DK has going for him in the air though. Lucario can **** DK in the air and Lucario should be doing this against DK.

On the ground DK has great tilt attacks. F-tilt has great range and can cancel out uncharged BAS. I don;t know if it can outrange Lucario's f-smash though. DK's d-tilt is quick and can make you trip as well. DK can actually string together a few d-tilts if he gets lucky and makes you trip. U-tilt can hit both sides of him but its range isn't as great as f-tilt.

His smashes are beastly especially f-smash. F-smash has great killing power so Lucario should be steering clear of it at mid-high percents. D-smash comes out fast and has good range and power on it. U-smash isn't as good as the other two though since you need to be above DK so you don't have to worry as much about it.

Lucario has the advantage of being able to camp DK with AS to force DK to approach. Lucario can also combo DK quite well due to DK's size and weight.

All in all I think it's more in Lucario's favour but definitely not a big advantage. I'd say the match is 55-45 Lucario's favour.

 

[Zero_Gamer]

Sorry to go off-subject a little, but I disagree with some of the things on the pro/con list. Lucario does so well against almost every character you listed as a disadvantage, save G&W and Olimar, but I assume we will update the list and go into more detail when the time comes to discuss them?

 

[Timbers]

Sorry to go off-subject a little, but I disagree with some of the things on the pro/con list. Lucario does so well against almost every character you listed as a disadvantage, save G&W and Olimar, but I assume we will update the list and go into more detail when the time comes to discuss them?

It'll be updated as we talk about the characters. I personally feel like TL, Olimar, Lucas, and GaW are the only disadvantages that Lucario has, but I'll save that for when we actually reach them.

 

[Nodrak]

Sorry to go off-subject a little, but I disagree with some of the things on the pro/con list. Lucario does so well against almost every character you listed as a disadvantage, save G&W and Olimar, but I assume we will update the list and go into more detail when the time comes to discuss them?

Thing is, not everyone agrees on all the matchups, so we'd end up in a debate about 5 matchups at once which gets very confusing. For example: I believe ROB and possibly TLink have the advantage over Lucario so I'd have to disagree with you. Either way we'll get to them when we get there. The only thing I'm worried about is that we have 37(ish) characters to go through, that puts the finish date for our matchup chart in march of 2009 =S

Anyway I completely forgot about camping! ... DK may be more agile then other large characters but he's still an easy character to camp. + to Lucario there.

 

[Milln]

Nodrak brings up an interesting point. How about we forgo weeks and simply have Jeepy switch us to new characters once we feel we've got a bearing?

 

[Baky]

Nodrak brings up an interesting point. How about we forgo weeks and simply have Jeepy switch us to new characters once we feel we've got a bearing?

Something I already suggested on post 45.

DK's KO potential alone is something to be fearful of. Timbers already suggested that at 70%+ a DK f-smash can kill. The range of his F-smash is also more which was also stated.

An effective spacing game consist of both air and ground spacing. So one would assume that B-air to counter DK's B-air and possible AS or F-smash to space against his ground game. Well Timbers has also already mentioned that DK can neutralize AS with his tilts and also considering the range of DK's F-smash using your own F-smash may be a horrible idea.

Lucario is excessively puny until he takes damage and if he dies as soon as he is at an appropriate percentage to do acceptable damage, then something is wrong. I would expect a good Lucario to die against a good DK at early percentages.

I won't say disadvantage because my short chit-chat was far from descriptive. Whatever Timbers says though I'm probably gonna agree with.

<3 Timbers

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Nodrak brings up an interesting point. How about we forgo weeks and simply have Jeepy switch us to new characters once we feel we've got a bearing?

I realize that people are feeling that one week is too long, but the thing is, there were people posting their opinions on Mario for the whole week, and there was even a post a day after the week.

I understand where you guys are coming from, so if you really think it should be less than a week, I will change it. I just want the discussion to be as thorough as possible.


Speaking of thorough discussions, this one is going great so far. I'm reluctant to write anything/quote anyone yet since we are not all on the same page as to what the match-up is.


One last thing. Every week, I will be announcing a winner. The winner will be a person that I believe had a lot to contribute, was always willing to discuss the match up in-depthly, and who was a big help to me. The winner for last week is Timbers. Thanks a lot, man. You helped a lot.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Forward Smash can't kill you uncharged till around 90-ish percent if you DI properly, 100-ish if you are getting send across the other side of the stage. (Assuming that a lvl 9 computer can DI properly which they do leave out the final step of DI but lets just use these numbers just to be safe)

Also on another note... if you start Double Team at the same time that DK starts Forward Smash you should be able to get off Double Team. Just something that you should watch out for and try to work in your game if you are having trouble with DK's Forward Smash

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Just some concerns I have had on this thread thus far.

Off Topic: Lets try not to. I understand it happens, but "I disagree Lucario butt ***** Charizard plz change thx" or anything like that where you post your opinion on a match up and give no good evidence is not wanted. Wait till we are on that character at least. Then please to post 4-5 times after they say that on your own thoughts to it or what people say in response... that almost makes a page of off topic which isn't helpful. PM the person or something.

Big Posts: They are great, because if you are writing that much you probably have something good to say. But no one wants to read a giant block of text (especially in this heat) on a computer monitor. FORMAT! Use Colors, Bold, Spacing, Paragraphs... Something! This will also save people form not reading your post and then posting something you said. Which will save us from posts about people saying how they already said that. Formating really doesn't take that long.

Time Per Character: I like the one week time. Not everyone has all the time in the world to be online all the time like some people do. Plus how can anyone intensively test out anything in less then a week. It is great and all if you can beat all the Game and Watches in your area... does that mean that Lucario is better then Game and Watch? It could mean that your GnW's suck... how do you tell? Testing!

Weekly Winners: I am against it. It just seems to me it will encourage people to post anything and everything regardless if it is important just to try and win something.

That's all I have to add really... If I am over stepping my bounds let me know and I will remove this.

 

[tedward2000]

Present!

Grats to Timbers for last weeks, most contributor award.
So as Jeepy said, he won't start up dating things till we get a solid watch-up % (if you will).

So, Im going to have to say, based on everyones views of the past 26 hours or so. Its a close match up.
We have those that are in favor of DK, but by a small %.
Then there are those who believe that Lucario has the upper hand, again by a small %.
But both sides have agreed that it has deeply controlled by Skill.
We can't really measure skill now can we?

So to have a better understanding of the favors. We can use Skill Dummies.
Two imaginary players, Bob and Joe.
They are equal in every match they play with every character. Minus the pros and cons according to that character.

Bob is playing DK, and Joe is playing Lucario.
Go discuss!
-t2

*edit
Oh and to actually contribute something.
I believe that the match is a close 55:45, in Lucario's favor.
Camping is a major pro on the side of lucario. At about 80%+ and fully charged AS can kill DK at about 120%. This is much sooner if you where trying to smash DK instead. All the Lucario player would have to do is give/ take a few hits to get both sides %'s up. Then switch to camping mode. Granted the DK will still be trying to KO you. But Lucario has a faster roll ( or side step) meaning he can get out of the way and to the other side of the stage and camp again.

And Aerial is in Lucario's favor too. Yes DK has hes amazing Bair, but the rest of his aerial moves dont reach par. Lucario's on the other hand do. Mainly his Dair. When used properly, it can rip apart DK (look at previous post about mirco Dair-ing). And also lucario's edge in the match, the AS, is just or more so deadly in the air then on ground. DK cannot block a AS in the air. He can air dodge, but then you can come in and attack. DK in the air will have momentum, and DK doesn't have very good air control. So timing is also very important. If you can assume the path DK is falling in, Throw a AS inside the path. Wala! he get hit. Use the BAS as a stunner, it will slow or stop DK. Giving you time to charge a AS, move, or just throw another BAS.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Present!

Grats to Timbers for last weeks, most contributor award.
So as Jeepy said, he won't start up dating things till we get a solid watch-up % (if you will).

So, Im going to have to say, based on everyones views of the past 26 hours or so. Its a close match up.
We have those that are in favor of DK, but by a small %.
Then there are those who believe that Lucario has the upper hand, again by a small %.
But both sides have agreed that it has deeply controlled by Skill.
We can't really measure skill now can we?

So to have a better understanding of the favors. We can use Skill Dummies.
Two imaginary players, Bob and Joe.
They are equal in every match they play with every character. Minus the pros and cons according to that character.

Bob is playing DK, and Joe is playing Lucario.
Go discuss!
-t2

Exactly what I was talking about.....

Pros of DK....

1. Can KO Early on...
2. Heavy (can survive longer)
3. ???

Cons of DK...

1. Big Target
2. Can Hit him inside his shield since he is big the shield will expose him sooner
3. Heavy (easy to combo on him)
4. Slower, less effective air game
5. NO RANGED ATTACK (we can camp this guy!)
6. Gimpable recovery

Pros of Lucario

1. Quickly accumulates Aura Boosts since DK hits hard
2. Aura Boost!
3. Superior Air game
4. Floaty (hard to combo)
5. RANGED ATTACK (We can camp!)
6. Hard to Gimp our recovery (if you pick stages properly)

Cons of Lucario

1. Can be KOed early...
2. Recovery does not attack
3. Too Sexy (everyone is jealous)


I still fail to see how we are that even with this match up

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Weekly Winners: I am against it. It just seems to me it will encourage people to post anything and everything regardless if it is important just to try and win something.

People that post "anything and everything" are definitely NOT going to win.

I'd just like to say that every single post that was made was EXTREMELY helpful, and I am very thankful to every one.

I decided to do the Weekle Winners as a way to thank people that were exceptionally helpful. I don't want it to be a competition.

 

[tedward2000]

Fundamental move DK-
Donkey Punch (standard B)
There will never be a DK match where this move isn't used. Its almost as important to them as jumping and breathing.
it packs a punch (pun intended)
A quick tab, and it already does a wopping 10%
Full charged, its does 28% .At about 80%, it can kill lucario. Oh and fully charged, it has super armor. That fist of his, becomes a brown fuzzy rocket of death. Oh and it hits behind hit too. His entire arm is a hit box. Getting hit by his elbow is no where near as deadly as his fist, but It can kill (about 110%) The elbow kill sends Lucario angled upwards and Lucario will fly slower from it.

Its charge sequence is about 8 seconds. And DK and charge it anytime, stop or go. It a collective charge. Meaning he can stop charging it, attack and go right back to charging. Once charged, DK's head will smoke and he will flash. The Choochoo train is ready. And it will hit like a train too.

DK's punch also works in the air. He has very slow momentum, so the fist just goes with the flow.
The DK punch's partner in crime is the DownB. It will trap your character to either let DK charge his punch, or if ones already charged, let go just right so you fly from the punch.

the DK punch is a killer.
-t2

 

[Timbers]

Something I already suggested on post 45.

DK's KO potential alone is something to be fearful of. Timbers already suggested that at 70%+ a DK f-smash can kill. The range of his F-smash is also more which was also stated.

An effective spacing game consist of both air and ground spacing. So one would assuming that B-air to counter DK's B-air and possible AS or F-smash to space against his ground game. Well Timbers has also already mentioned that DK can neutralize AS with his tilts and also considering the range of DK's F-smash using your own F-smash may be a horrible idea.

Lucario is excessively puny until he takes damage and if he dies as soon as he is at an appropriate percentage to do acceptable damage, then something is wrong. I would expect a good Lucario to die against a good DK at early percentages.

I won't say disadvantage because my short chit-chat was far from descriptive. Whatever Timbers says though I'm probably gonna agree with.

<3 Timbers

One last thing. Every week, I will be announcing a winner. The winner will be a person that I believe had a lot to contribute, was always willing to discuss the match up in-depthly, and who was a big help to me. The winner for last week is Timbers. Thanks a lot, man. You helped a lot.

=3

Forward Smash can't kill you uncharged till around 90-ish percent if you DI properly, 100-ish if you are getting send across the other side of the stage. (Assuming that a lvl 9 computer can DI properly which they do leave out the final step of DI but lets just use these numbers just to be safe)

Also on another note... if you start Double Team at the same time that DK starts Forward Smash you should be able to get off Double Team. Just something that you should watch out for and try to work in your game if you are having trouble with DK's Forward Smash

Fsmash kills you at center of FD at like 95% with DI. Probably 85% on the smaller stages. The killpower it has isn't nearly as scary as how your spacing game is directly in DK's sweetspot.

I'm not big on using DT unless my opponent has become predictable with their assault, so I can't say much about DT. I don't like using it on out-of-the-blue moves. Personal preference d= I just can't say anything about that. Again, the biggest problem with the fsmash is how your entire spacing game is in it's sweetspot.

Next time I play a DK I'll try going campy. From what I saw though, the bairs just eat up auraspheres. I've found that letting him approach, and then going on offense is effective. DK is pretty useless in the air. If he can't bair you, he's screwed. Take advantage of that. Keep him off the ground with your combos. Once he's regained his bearings, camp him. Take note when I say "camp," it doesn't necessarily mean you're doing damage to him (BAS is negated by about everything he has) but making him approach and ruining his own spacing with bairs is all you need to do to get the flow going.

Has anyone had problems on trying to excessively camp a DK though? I'm able to get in maybe 3 BAS (assuming he's somewhere on the stage) before I have to stop. The idea of bair being able to eat the BAS and hit you is dangerous. If you can successfully hit him in the air with a BAS though, he gets turned around and becomes harmless. If he's approaching from a fullhop, try and get the BAS to hit him at the peak of his jump. Otherwise he'll fall too quickly for you to successfully followup on his vulnerability. Admittedly I haven't tried this much. DK can spam bairs more than you can spam BAS.

Regarding character discussion: A week may be too much. And a week may be too short. It will probably take us longer to give a general opinion on a character than it is for others. Not a lot of players play Mario. That's probably the reason there was so much debate about the character itself. Characters like Snake or MK, or anyone else that's played consistantly, will get a much faster analysis than underplayed characters.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

I'm not big on using DT unless my opponent has become predictable with their assault, so I can't say much about DT. I don't like using it on out-of-the-blue moves. Personal preference d= I just can't say anything about that. Again, the biggest problem with the fsmash is how your entire spacing game is in it's sweetspot.

So is what you are saying that you don't want to throw Scissors if you SEE your opponent throwing Paper? Forward Smash is long enough to give you time to start Double Team once you see him doing it.

Next time I play a DK I'll try going campy. From what I saw though, the bairs just eat up auraspheres. I've found that letting him approach, and then going on offense is effective. DK is pretty useless in the air. If he can't bair you, he's screwed. Take advantage of that. Keep him off the ground with your combos. Once he's regained his bearings, camp him. Take note when I say "camp," it doesn't necessarily mean you're doing damage to him (BAS is negated by about everything he has) but making him approach and ruining his own spacing with bairs is all you need to do to get the flow going.

Has anyone had problems on trying to excessively camp a DK though? I'm able to get in maybe 3 BAS (assuming he's somewhere on the stage) before I have to stop. The idea of bair being able to eat the BAS and hit you is dangerous. If you can successfully hit him in the air with a BAS though, he gets turned around and becomes harmless. If he's approaching from a fullhop, try and get the BAS to hit him at the peak of his jump. Otherwise he'll fall too quickly for you to successfully followup on his vulnerability. Admittedly I haven't tried this much. DK can spam bairs more than you can spam BAS.

So if BAS arent working for you why are you using them... why not charge up and use a charged up Aura Sphere I hear he can't Back Air that one. If he gets close to you while you are charging use our incredible roll to get away and then charge up after you move away.... or even better yet... grab him and throw him.. then finish charging... spamming attacks and effectively camping are different.

 

[Timbers]

So is what you are saying that you don't want to throw Scissors if you SEE your opponent throwing Paper? Forward Smash is long enough to give you time to start Double Team once you see him doing it.

It's just personal preference. I can punish just as easily with a shieldgrab.

So if BAS arent working for you why are you using them... why not charge up and use a charged up Aura Sphere I hear he can't Back Air that one. If he gets close to you while you are charging use our incredible roll to get away and then charge up after you move away.... or even better yet... grab him and throw him.. then finish charging... spamming attacks and effectively camping are different.

It forces him to approach. Hitting with at least one BAS while he's approaching totally throws him off and gives you an opportunity. Charging an AS is fine too, but it also gives him the chance to charge a giant punch. I'd just prefer to screw with his approach. I might not be able to get many opportunities off, but even doing it once or twice in a game is great. He's a big character, and once you trash his bair, he's cake in the air.

FYI: His bair can cancel a 100% fully charged aurasphere.

 

[Fizzle]

I'm not a Lucario main yet, so I'm not really interested in any serious discussion...but I have played some good DKs, and there's one little thing you guys have forgot to mention:

DK's stage spike. Yeah, that thing where he cargos you and throws you at the edge. Generally, most characters can survive it at low %s, but it's a little more dangerous to Lucario. Lucario's Extreme Speed does zero damage, so if you're on a non wall cling-able stage (ex Battlefield, Smashville, etc) and you're knocked down pretty far, then it's just a simple edgehog for the win with DK.

Just one more thing to factor in when you're fighting the big guy. Personally, I'd agree with the majority and say the matchup is 55-45 in Lucario's favor.

To add on to what Baky said below me (good post btw), DK's up-b has super armor frames, as well.

 

[Baky]

Lucario's air game is great, but honestly its not very difficult to defend against assuming you understand the hitboxes of the moves.

With DK's d-tilt, he can trip and quickly space against Lucario easily. U-tilt will probably not be a problem considering the amazingly over prioritizing d-air that Lucario has. F-tilt is also quite slow, but apparently can be used to negate Aura Spheres.

If you camp DK, you'll most likely give him the opportunity to fully charge his B attack. This attack has super armor, it has great range, and its one hell of a KO move.

And OneWingedAngel suggested that DK was easy to gimp and lucario wasnt?
DK is potentially easy to gimp considering the situation and your experience vs DK. Lucario on the other hand can be edgehogged easily, and DK has some impressive ways to edgeguard.

Lastly, he can grab you and throw you against the wall on most stages. Potentially easy kill even at lower percentages. If that doesnt work he does also have THREE spikes at his disposal.

So yeah..compile my unorganized gibberish. Yet again not very descriptive but I said what I wanted to say.

 

[Milln]

*suggests*

Instead of being basic and letting DK lawl all over your approaches and baits:

Short hop or alternate between ground and hopped aura sphere so he can't tilt it.
Intentionally put yourself in a bad position where Side+B or Donkey Punch or an equal move is expected as a retaliation and Double Team it. Risky, but... hey. =o
Don't approach with Fair. Use it when you're already in his face.
Approach/Bait with Bair.
Get him above you. What's he gonna do? Dair? Fair? Nair? Pfft. Uair that crap.
Gimping DK = Baiting Spinning Kong and Dairing it.
Don't get grabbed near the edge. If you do, mash like a fiend to get out. Don't get footstooled if you get stage spiked.
Stay calm. Calm Lucarios win.
Switch it up. Don't find an approach that works because it won't work for long.

 

[Nodrak]

footstool offstage = DK death

 

[Baky]

footstool offstage = DK death

I DARE someone to disagree.

I do see it coming.

 

[Milln]

To get that footstool, DK has to be doing nothing. Otherwise, you'll just bounce off really high. Link to it out of some fairs.

 

[Timbers]

Don't approach with Fair. Use it when you're already in his face.
Approach/Bait with Bair.

Agreed with this bit, or most of it. I wouldn't approach DK, but that's just how I feel about it. Bait him with BAS or bair. Don't let him charge giant punch. It hurts. F-airs only when he's vulnerable.

I had mentioned his cargo throw->ledgespike, but I'll go over it again. You should stay away from the ledge if possible. Assuming you do get grabbed, you're usually able to break free before he can do anything with it until you're at 60-70%. You'll usually break out before then and possible footstool him as a consequence. DK players know this, and won't attempt it unless they know they can get the ledgespike. This means, if you get ledgespiked at 70% with this, you're not coming back. No matter what character you are (obviously exaggeration. Snake can probably uB as well as ROB, but most characters are screwed. Lucario's uB doing no damage is irrelevant, he's probably dead anyways)

 

[tedward2000]

footstool offstage = DK death

I said this earier.
But it was cluttered in a mass of info.
-t2

*edit
"Here's a gem to use in fighting one. Fair+fair+ Stool jump. Seriously, the fairs is for getting him off the stage. The Stool jump though is the killer. The falling animation is very long, so even if they did double jump and DKnadowed (Up-B) they only reach that wall on FD. There you can be waiting for a Dair, or a Charged AS. Do what ever.
Ok I did it again, Stoll jump!! My god. " (p.8)

Yea, but hey Nodraks version is shorter and sweeter. =)

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

And OneWingedAngel suggested that DK was easy to gimp and lucario wasnt?
DK is potentially easy to gimp considering the situation and your experience vs DK. Lucario on the other hand can be edgehogged easily, and DK has some impressive ways to edgeguard.

I said Lucario isn't easy to gimp if you pick the right stage. There are a lot of good stages to play him on where you can wall cling and where he can't cargo spike you.

Lucario advantage stages:

Yoshi's Island: You can wall cling here for recovery, AND he can't cargo spike you
Firgate Orpheon: Same thing, (this really is a great Lucario stage with High Ceiling to boot!)
Green Greens: Same thing, Although this one might be tough since it is a small stage both of you can be KOed early so it kinda turns your disadvantage to his as well (a better camping stage too)

Not DK Advantage Stages:

Norfair: He might be able to Cargo Spike you here but he lava will save you 7/10 times, plus you have more ledges to try and grab onto for more recovery options or just Extreme Speed to any ledge.
Luigi's Mansion: you can tech his powerful attacks and it is easier to stay away from the edges so you can't get Cargo Spiked.
Jungle Japes: No cargo spike here either and you can use the water to get away from him if need be (and you can have DK64 song be played if you unlocked it ^_^ )

DK Advantage stages:

Battlefield: DK gets all his tricks here
Final Destination: Same
Smashville: Same
Pokemon Stadium 1: Same
Lylat Cruise: Same (plus it is just a horrible stage)
Halberd: He doesn't get all his tricks until you are on the ship but still... why risk it
Delfino Plaza: DK does get Water spikes here but only in a couple of places... you should be smart enough to stay out of the water. But no Stage spike here. And stay away from the Walls in a couple of parts... he can infinite grab you there.


So yeah.. the only Neutral stage that isn't in DK's favor is Yoshi's Island so make sure you ban one of them you hate the most and try to increase your chances of getting Yoshi's when you are on Random.