~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[Browny]

do the numbers

diddy has one of the weakest fsmashes (Zamus is probably the only worse), his usmash is practically useless to KO and his dsmash is also one of the worse in terms of KO potential (zamus, ganondorf, ROB dont really count because they arent meant to KO). his aerials finishers are also very poor, he might beat out mario, MK, squirtle and shiek. thats it

Sonic, Pit and shiek can all KO at least 20% earlier than diddy with respective attacks.
sure diddy has his spike, but who honestly gets spiked?

 

[Baky]

ok, SHUT UP about Diddy. We have agreed that its mario time.

BTW. His D-smash, b-throw ( I think ), and F-smash all have good KO potential. Plus he is an edgeguarding beast so it doesnt matter as long as he can get you out of the ring. His F-smash also has great range.

But as I said. MARIO TIME. DO NOT RESPOND TO ME.

 

[tedward2000]

Honestly, Advantage/Neurtal/Disadvantage may be too vague. 5 categories may be appropriate Jeepy.

Hmm... 5 catergories.

Ok so how about
High Adv/Adv/Equalish/Dis Adv/High dis Adv
10-9 8-7 6-5 4-3 2-1

High Adv, Adv-Advantage, in favor of lucario
High dis Adv, Dis Adv- Disadvantage, not in favor of lucario
Equailish- close call, can go either way ever so slightly.

that work?
-t2

 

[Nodrak]

3 is enough. If a character has a slight advantage or disadvantage it should be marked as neutral, because it comes down to player skill. Mario for example may have a slight advantage but not enough to warrant counterpicking.

Anyway back to Mario!

Just about any combos or attack speed/priority is negated off-stage. Once you throw Mario off the stage and fair him 3-4 times he's helpless. Of course a good Mario will realize this fast and stick the the center of the stage, just means we have to get creative.

 

[Baky]

3 is enough. If a character has a slight advantage or disadvantage it should be marked as neutral, because it comes down to player skill. Mario for example may have a slight advantage but not enough to warrant counterpicking.

If thats the case then he doesnt deserve a discussion.

I'm merely suggesting that a more in-depth chart would notify someone which characters require more practice as oppose to others. Neutral, would suggest that there are no noteable differences in movesets that are worth showing concern for.

Also, a week on most characters may be too much. A few days may be appropriate for most.

As for mario, I'll prepare something helpful soon.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

The sad part is Mario is just too Average. He has no real strengths to him that other characters don't do better. The only time I see us fighting one is ... a Mario Main which seem to be few... or when someone has to pick characters first and they pick Random (an amazing psychological tactic) and are left with Mario. Even given all of that there are some notable things to say about him.

-His cape, yes we all know how deadly it is but! did you know...
--It stops him momentum (well slightly pushes him back but after that it stops it.
---Will reflect a projectile/attack during the whole animation. I say this because there is a part of the animation that is him putting it way and the cap is technically not there... IT WILL STILL REFLECT HERE!

-His Up B, some things you might not know...
--We all love to be over our opponent for our dreaded Down Air... not so much on this opponent. Up B will beat us out and send us high enough in the air where Mario can get on the ground and deal with our pursuit.

On a good note though... Punish the hell out of Mario's Forward Air, it is so slow and had so much lag from the attack.

 

[tedward2000]

...or when someone has to pick characters first and they pick Random (an amazing psychological tactic) and are left with Mario. Even given all of that there are some notable things to say about him...

Rando ftw!
I have nothing else to add to mario, I've had my fill.
-t2

 

[D. Disciple]

Be careful of the rar Bair-uair approaches with him. He won't be able to string it against us like bigger characters, but intelligent users will learn how to utilize that into different string of hits that are usually never good. Still an average match though, and he can gimp our recovery just as well. So I think you guys should go a bit more in depth in this match up before calling it a wrap.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Be careful of the rar Bair-uair approaches with him. He won't be able to string it against us like bigger characters, but intelligent users will learn how to utilize that into different string of hits that are usually never good. Still an average match though, and he can gimp our recovery just as well. So I think you guys should go a bit more in depth in this match up before calling it a wrap.

What would you like to have be discussed... Hell if we talk too much more about it we will have more info here on Mario than he has in his own forum...

 

[Jeepy Sol]

5 categories will be considered.

Things I would like to have discussed more in-depthly:

*Behavior of Mario ( How will he start off match, etc.)
*Bread and butter moves (What moves will he use a lot, what moves will he use to gimp/KO, etc.)
*How to win
*Recommended stages (What stages benefit Lucario against Mario)

Again, sorry, but I don't know much about Mario, so I'm going to have to sit this one out for the most part.

 

[Nodrak]

What would you like to have be discussed... Hell if we talk too much more about it we will have more info here on Mario than he has in his own forum...

Might attract people to our forum, meaning more people realizing how awesome Lucario is and changing mains =D

I've said my piece on Mario. In the right hands Mario can be every bit as deadly as Lucario, but can also be outranged and gimped (WoP) by Lucario to devastating ends.

I'd leave this matchup as neutral, it can go either way depending on each player's skill.

 

[Timbers]

5 categories will be considered.

Things I would like to have discussed more in-depthly:

*Behavior of Mario ( How will he start off match, etc.)
*Bread and butter moves (What moves will he use a lot, what moves will he use to gimp/KO, etc.)
*How to win
*Recommended stages (What stages benefit Lucario against Mario)

Again, sorry, but I don't know much about Mario, so I'm going to have to sit this one out for the most part.

*Approach with fireballs into jab/ftilt/grab. The Marios I have played will approach most, if not all the time; with fireballs protecting their fulljumped approach.
*Bair. I haven't had this happen yet, but the cape can apparently gimp your recovery with little risk to Mario.
*Keep the game in the air. His bair is a pain but it's the only thing he's got going for him when up against a Lucario. Keep him off the ground, all his KO potential lies in usmash and fsmash. Fair as well, but you shouldn't have a problem getting through such a laggy move with your OP aerials.
*I couldn't say.

Can't help much on Mario. I haven't played a huge amount of them.

 

[tedward2000]

Any stage that is open air, and not walk-to-your-death-able.
Stages like Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Firgate Orpheon(especially during the stage flip) and Smashville are great Counter stages. Plenty of open air to push him past his save point.

The more open side air on the sides of the stage, the better.
-t2

 

[Daimonster]

Despite paper theory, I believe it's safe to say lucario is mostly 5:5 with the majority of the cast and a disadvantage towards Pitt, Falco, G&W, Snake and ROB.

Just my two cents. I'll have you guys reflect on that and then perhaps respond later.

 

[Nodrak]

Despite paper theory, I believe it's safe to say lucario is mostly 5:5 with the majority of the cast and a disadvantage towards Pitt, Falco, G&W, Snake and ROB.

Just my two cents. I'll have you guys reflect on that and then perhaps respond later.

I disagree with Pit and Snake (to an extent, but we'll have to discuss him later), but lets try to keep it to our one character a week for now.

 

[Timbers]

Despite paper theory, I believe it's safe to say lucario is mostly 5:5 with the majority of the cast and a disadvantage towards Pitt, Falco, G&W, Snake and ROB.

Just my two cents. I'll have you guys reflect on that and then perhaps respond later.

Pit has super obvious kill moves, meaning you stay alive and reap the benefits of aura. His aerial game is slow, and bair/nair/fair lack range.

Snake I'd put at 50:50

ROB lacks kill moves. You live longer.

Falco 50:50

His obvious disadvantages are GaW, Olimar, TL, Ness, and Lucas.

But yeah, that's all I'm saying about this. It's Mario time.

Regarding Mario's stages, I think pokemon stadium melee, Lylat, Final Destination would be reasonable picks against him. The stages on those are fairly long, and has plenty of room on the sides to gimp Mario. Meaning, you will survive that fsmash for longer percents (aura benefits), provided you stay away from the blastzones and you don't land on top of his usmash. Not to mention how linear his recovery is, and the gayed ledges on those three stages will allow you to force him not to airdodge, or end up passing the ledge sweetspot. PS1's terrain doesn't pose much of a threat to Lucario. The disadvantages that Mario has will be the same as Lucario's. FD is self explanatory. Lylat, dunno. platforms put your aerials to good use, however it benefits Mario as well. Auraspheres may get eaten by the main platform if you're not paying attention. It's only theory, but it sounds pretty good to me.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

First page has been updated! Let's fill in those blank spots, people!

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

*Behavior of Mario ( How will he start off match, etc.)

--From what I have seen Mario's start off spamming fireball (which keep him safer then the little ball would seem) until he can get close where he will try and space himself accordingly for his Forward Smash and/or Down Smash (his two best kill moves). They know of our power to get stronger so they are going to try and get you off the edge and gimp your recovery with cape/edgehoging skills (fear the edgegrab >> drop >> instant cape (will hit no matter which way he is facing))


*Bread and butter moves (What moves will he use a lot, what moves will he use to gimp/KO, etc.)

--Fireball spam (Advancing/BAS blocking)
--Down Smash (KO move)
--Forward Smash (KO move)
--Up B (Stops Down Air)

*How to win

Get him off the ledge and gimp his recovery, or use your kill moves at the appropriate times, Horizontally is one of the best ways to knock him out since his recovery isn't as good as it used to be.

*Recommended stages (What stages benefit Lucario against Mario)

--Final Destination (Very Big Stage helps you survive his smash attacks to keep your damage high and you alive)
--Luigi's Mansion (Another Big Stage which you can use the house to tech and survive longer)
--Frigate Orpheon(Another large stage, you can wall cling to the side of the platform to keep Mario predicting where you are going to ES back to the stage

***EDIT****
Frigate Orpheon was changed from Norfair.... Sorry I confused the two for a moment there... ^_^;;
***EDIT****

 

[Timbers]

Oh my god how could I forget about Luigi's Mansion. Definitely a great counterpick. Mario has no vertical killmoves on Lucario until stupid high percents. Gay ledges, huge stage. Fireballs are blocked by pillars and Probably the best against Mario.

I haven't played a Mario that uses his dsmash as a primary KO move, though. It's usually integrated into their game as a way to rack up damage. It's usually/always fsmash as the finisher :\

Norfair is meh. Fireballs>auraspheres here. Can't really combo because of the weird obtuse shape that all the platforms have. Also the walls are really close in. You're pretty dead if you get fsmashed at like 75-90% on any of the extending platforms.

 

[tedward2000]

I disagree with the main tactic with mario is to spam fireballs.
They're range is wavy and medium. Which at the beginning of a match, If the mario player is doing that, he's very stupid. Spamming fireballs, leaves you at the same place as you started, close to an edge. Playing mario, I have always found his dash a great distance eater. If one player is foolish enough to rush you, use fireballs, then dash attack +SH Nair.
But if they are campy, cape one of the projectiles, SH, land and dash attack.
Mario cannot return fire very well, characters that have long range projectiles will tear him to pieces if he doesn't move.
My mario is a very aerial mario. I use his dash to pop them in the air, Upsmash to keep them there, and Uair to the star KO. This play style is uncommon. Most other mario users like to remain grounded. This then becomes a very campy mario, and throws fireballs at the darkness, which don't do anything.

A good mario will move around, and get in your face, a unsuccessful one will Neutral B to his or hers hearths desire.

Also, Mario's down B is another thing to take note of. It doesn't do damage. But fully charged, it makes him heavier. Meaning he travels less from a lucario Fsmash then he normally would. Less travel distance, easier to save himself. He does not fall any faster either.

*edit
I forgot grabs!
With the two play styles I said earlier, each uses a different grab of choice. A Aerial mario will use D-throw mostly, and Up-throw. A campy or grounded Mario will use f-trhow mostly.

As for stages, Lylat is neutral with a Lucario Vs Mario match. The stage isnt flat. We all know at the "wings", bend down a light degree. This degree will stop a AS, it will Not stop a fireball. Also the ledges, allows a Mario player to drop from one and get a D-air from it, possibly becoming a threat. And the ledges can save/kill mario. More space to land on, but because they are low, a lucario Up-tilt or Upsmash will go through. Also its a small stage, so theres less air room. Again hindering and helping mario. More room for saving himself, but that also means the walls are closer. So a nicely unexpected AS can kill or even a second Fair.
And gimps for both sides, but Lucario has a bit of advantage. The wings have caused many headaches for many people, with many characters. Get underneath the wing, and you cannot save your self if your out of jumps and/or your Up-B doesn't curve. Lucario doesn't have the wing problem as bad as some characters (i.e. the space animals). Just curve around and on top of the wing, or just go to the other one. Mario will hit his head and fall.
-t2

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

I disagree with the main tactic with mario is to spam fireballs.
They're range is wavy and medium. Which at the beginning of a match, If the mario player is doing that, he's very stupid. Spamming fireballs, leaves you at the same place as you started, close to an edge. Playing mario, I have always found his dash a great distance eater.

Maybe I wasn't clean on what I ment. The fireballs are ment to slow you down so you don't rush into him, and maybe get a couple of percentages in there but main to slow you down and shield his advance in on you.

If one player is foolish enough to rush you, use fireballs, then dash attack +SH Nair.

Could you format that different somehow it is very unclear as to what you are trying to say or as to how it is relevant to your argument. It pretty much is agreeing with what I am saying about fireball spam.

My mario is a very aerial mario. I use his dash to pop them in the air, Upsmash to keep them there, and Uair to the star KO. This play style is uncommon. Most other mario users like to remain grounded. This then becomes a very campy mario, and throws fireballs at the darkness, which don't do anything.

Umm why would you go aerial again Lucario? Where does this land in the discussion?

Also, Mario's down B is another thing to take note of. It doesn't do damage. But fully charged, it makes him heavier. Meaning he travels less from a lucario Fsmash then he normally would. Less travel distance, easier to save himself. He does not fall any faster either.

Aren't you forgetting that if we now have a heavier opponent we can now use that to our advantage with our combos? It sounded like you said this as something we should be worried about but it sounds like to me if he is heavier then he is easier for us to kill. Thats just my thought on it though.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Oh my god how could I forget about Luigi's Mansion. Definitely a great counterpick. Mario has no vertical killmoves on Lucario until stupid high percents. Gay ledges, huge stage. Fireballs are blocked by pillars and Probably the best against Mario.

I haven't played a Mario that uses his dsmash as a primary KO move, though. It's usually integrated into their game as a way to rack up damage. It's usually/always fsmash as the finisher :\

Norfair is meh. Fireballs>auraspheres here. Can't really combo because of the weird obtuse shape that all the platforms have. Also the walls are really close in. You're pretty dead if you get fsmashed at like 75-90% on any of the extending platforms.

I wasn't stating that Down Smash was a primary KOing move I would assume Forward Smash would be, but Down Smash has good knock back on it and that might be all he needs to get us off the edge and to gimp our recovery with a nice Edgehog/Cape.

I only stated Norfair because of the extra survivability options I really couldn't think of more then the first two and then that one came to mind. I mean I would say Lylat since it is big... but I hate that stage lol I don't think it is a good stage for Lucario at all.

 

[tedward2000]

Could you format that different somehow it is very unclear as to what you are trying to say or as to how it is relevant to your argument. It pretty much is agreeing with what I am saying about fireball spam.

Ok, what I was saying, roughly, is use a fireball to stop the rushers run, and then attack.
A spammer will just keep spamming fireballs, regardless if he stopped the rusher or not.

Umm why would you go aerial again Lucario? Where does this land in the discussion?Aren't you forgetting that if we now have a heavier opponent we can now use that to our advantage with our combos? It sounded like you said this as something we should be worried about but it sounds like to me if he is heavier then he is easier for us to kill. Thats just my thought on it though.

One, I wouldn't go aerial with Lucario. On some other characters yes, But lucario is a big No no. Mario's Aerials can be chained, much like Lucarios. But, lucario's has more range, priority and power.

And the Fludd works in both ways. Like you said, It can help Lucario's chains. But what I was saying is that, it makes him heavier. And If mario has it charged early in a match, pulling off those combo's and getting mario in the air is going to require more power and technique. It will anchor him to the ground, and that is exactly what mario wants and needs.
-t2

 

[Timbers]

I disagree with the main tactic with mario is to spam fireballs.
They're range is wavy and medium. Which at the beginning of a match, If the mario player is doing that, he's very stupid. Spamming fireballs, leaves you at the same place as you started, close to an edge. Playing mario, I have always found his dash a great distance eater. If one player is foolish enough to rush you, use fireballs, then dash attack +SH Nair.
But if they are campy, cape one of the projectiles, SH, land and dash attack.
Mario cannot return fire very well, characters that have long range projectiles will tear him to pieces if he doesn't move.
My mario is a very aerial mario. I use his dash to pop them in the air, Upsmash to keep them there, and Uair to the star KO. This play style is uncommon. Most other mario users like to remain grounded. This then becomes a very campy mario, and throws fireballs at the darkness, which don't do anything.

Ehh. I tend to be disagreeing with you a lot.

Like, to the point that I'm not even sure if you're playing the same character that we are.

Fireballs are a great way to approach with Mario.

A grounded Mario is uncommon, not the other way around. I seriously don't know how you can play him without abusing his uair, nair, and bair. Usmash is suck for combo potential, utilt is tons better. You completely lost me with the uair bit. Your primary kill move is his uair, seriously? It doesnt even kill till like 190% on center of FD.

EDIT: I've been trying this for like 10 minutes, and I still can't get a straight vertical trajectory. How in the hell are you getting star KOs with Mario's uair?

As for stages, Norfair is neutral with a Lucario Vs Mario match. The stage isnt flat. We all know at the "wings", bend down a light degree. This degree will stop a AS, it will Not stop a fireball. Also the ledges, allows a Mario player to drop from one and get a D-air from it, possibly becoming a threat. And the ledges can save/kill mario. More space to land on, but because they are low, a lucario Up-tilt or Upsmash will go through. Also its a small stage, so theres less air room. Again hindering and helping mario. More room for saving himself, but that also means the walls are closer. So a nicely unexpected AS can kill or even a second Fair.
And gimps for both sides, but Lucario has a bit of advantage. The wings have caused many headaches for many people, with many characters. Get underneath the wing, and you cannot save your self if your out of jumps and/or your Up-B doesn't curve. Lucario doesn't have the wing problem as bad as some character (i.e. the space animals). Just curve around and on top of the wing, or just go to the other one. Mario will hit his head and fall.

I think you mean Lylat. Also you should be fairly close to Mario and unpredictable with the AS. Yes, the platform will stop them occasionally, but you shouldn't let the AS drift long enough to get eaten by the platform anyways. Talking about Mario's Dair through the platform? What about Lucario's god tier dair that shreds everything. Lucario's dair>Mario's dair, in terms of "threats." I honestly think it's a better stage for Luc. The only possible way it even helps Mario is he can use the platforms to execute successful uair juggles, whereas Luc's uair is pretty slow. Mario's sh bair won't hit people on the ledges (most of the time, mind you) whereas Luc's fair and bair poke just far enough through the platform to hit the opponent, while mainintaining a safe position incase it's shielded. Usmash also extends beyond the platforms, whereas Mario's does not.

I only stated Norfair because of the extra survivability options I really couldn't think of more then the first two and then that one came to mind. I mean I would say Lylat since it is big... but I hate that stage lol I don't think it is a good stage for Lucario at all.

Well, it gives you as many options as it does Mario, regarding recovery :\ I might be exaggerating that a bit, as Mario's recovery is very linear, but still. Multiple platforms give him more potential opportunities on recovery.

I actually think Lucario has the best recovery on this stage (Lylat), excluding multiple jump characters. Huge sweetspot on the ledge, and his recovery is very versatile. My main gripe with the stage would be the main platform's tendency to screw up your auraspheres. It's good I think, though. The weird angle that Lylat has screws up some character's autocancelled aerials on a flat surface. To my knowledge, this has no relevance to Mario, but just throwing it out there.

 

[tedward2000]

Yea, I did mean Lylat.

ironically, Im agreeing with you. Even about me being wrong.

Except, the Uair. I juggle with the Air's ( i left that part our before, my bad) then get them high enough above the stage to get the star KO with Mario. (its more of a Lucario habit) It doesn't kill if the other character is too low.

And I never said a thing about Fireballs being bad for approach shots. They're great, arguably one of their better uses is in approach.

So then on that note, My mario IS common. Campy ones are not.
-t2

Edit*
Ok, another thing I left out. Im getting the Star Ko's at stages like Smashville. I use the Uair at FD for mostly juggling.
gah its late, and I'm forgetting key facts.
Im hitting the sack before I accidentally start taking about mario using arrows and summoning thunder bolts.
-t2

 

[Browny]

Marios fsmash is deceptively powerful... stay the hell away from it. mario is really underrated in brawl, if it wasnt for his as-bad-as-melee recovery he would be in the top 15 for sure.

im sure i got nothing new to add that hasnt already been said, but id put this one in lucarios favour, im not underestimating mario, but his approach is shut down by RDT and his aerials, which can juggle fast fallers/heavy very well dont really work on lucario and he has a hard time landing his few, although powerful KO moves against lucario, unlike luigi for example whose aerials are a serious threat, mario has the back hit of his dsmash, sweetspot fsmash for ~120% KO's and usmash for about 135%. im not sure about the numbers, but DI makes a big difference.

 

[Nodrak]

Mario's uair wont be doing much killing unless you're already near the top. Usmash on the other hand...


Behavior:
He'll both approach and retreat with fireballs, they're used to slow us down more then rack up damage (especially against Lucario, why would you rack up damage if it doesn't knock him away?)
Mario's generally like to think things through, they'll approach when they feel it's necessary and retreat when they start getting hit. Lucario users feel a certain satisfaction when our Double Team successfully counters an attack well trust me, Mario gets every bit the same satisfaction when he capes a fully charged Aura Sphere back or even turning around our ExtremeSpeed the other way.

Fundamental Moves:
Fireballs: As I mentioned before, while transitioning between offensive and defensive Mario will use these to slow us down and give him more time.
Cape: AS and ES turnarounds mainly
F-Smash: Great KO move, it's **** fast and has good range (also great for screenshots)
upB: As a recovery
FLUDD: But only in joke matches =P

How to Win:
Space attacks properly and don't use laggy attacks unless you know they'll hit. The only reason he should be within ftilt or utilt range is because you're either double teaming him or comboing him.

Match-Up: 50:50, you have range but he has speed

Recommended Stages:
Mario's pretty average, he doesn't have any outstanding stages or any real counter stages. In my opinion you shouldn't worry about what stage gives Mario a hard time, but what stages give Lucario an easy time. The one devistating weakness Mario has is his recovery (which isn't as bad as some but it's not great). So pick a stage with a lot of room offstage to throw/kick Mario far enough so that he cant recover.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Oh WOW. I completely got my stages mixed up. When I mentioned Norfair as a stage that would be good to fight on... I ment Frigate Orpheon... wow sorry about that guys ^_^;;;;

Going back and changing my posts accordingly....

 

[PSYCHE]

It may be that I am lacking as a Lucario player, or that all the Marios I play are really good, or maybe a little of both, but I find that it is either neutral or disadvantage. All of his aerials (except f-air) pose a huge threat, and all lead into combos. U-tilt can combo into more u-tilts, which leads to other combos. SH d-air does some pretty good damage, and leads into other attacks as well. F-air spikes, and I feel like he can gimp our recovery much better than we can gimp his. F-smash is just plain crazy. D-smash is pretty intense as well, although not as good as Luigi's. Fireballs are annoying as heck, and the cape is AS and ES's worst nightmare.

I say (slight) disadvantage.

EDIT: Oh, and n-air is a *****, too

 

[Timbers]

Oh WOW. I completely got my stages mixed up. When I mentioned Norfair as a stage that would be good to fight on... I ment Frigate Orpheon... wow sorry about that guys ^_^;;;;

Going back and changing my posts accordingly....

olololollo, yeah Frigate definitely.

Frigate would be devastating for Mario. Definitely acknowledge this stage. Whereas Lucario can wall cling to the right side (before platform swap) Mario is forced to die or recover onto the stage (fall special) which sets up a punishment and/or death. Plus stage flips can completely merk his recovery if he's offstage.

Frigate Orpheon and Luigi's Mansion would be definite counterpicks against Mario.

It may be that I am lacking as a Lucario player, or that all the Marios I play are really good, or maybe a little of both, but I find that it is either neutral or disadvantage. All of his aerials (except f-air) pose a huge threat, and all lead into combos. U-tilt can combo into more u-tilts, which leads to other combos. SH d-air does some pretty good damage, and leads into other attacks as well. F-air spikes, and I feel like he can gimp our recovery much better than we can gimp his. F-smash is just plain crazy. D-smash is pretty intense as well, although not as good as Luigi's. Fireballs are annoying as heck, and the cape is AS and ES's worst nightmare.

I say (slight) disadvantage.

EDIT: Oh, and n-air is a *****, too

Uair should never be that much of a problem. Your dair will shred it. The only aerial he has to be extremely worried about is his bair. If the spike is a problem, recover low. Mario can't go far beneath the stage or he's guaranteed to kill himself. The recovery, eh. Who knows, really. Lucario's moves send the opponent in a 45-50 degree angle, which usually isn't going to set up gimp opportunities. Bair and dsmash might be needed to set them up, as they send the opponent in a very horizontal fashion. I personally haven't gimped many Marios with Lucario, though. The gimps I do get is just from them using their midair jump too early and getting punished for it. I haven't been gimped by the cape, yet, so I can't say how easy it is to pull off.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Original post updated. Discussion is going great so far! : )

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Forward Smash and Up Smash on Mario KOs at around 125ish
Down Smash on Mario KOs at around 150ish

This is from the center of Final Destination uncharged with DI.

Forward Smash on Mario KOs at around 100ish
Down Smash on Mario KOs at around 130ish
Up Smash on Mario KOs at around 135ish

This is from right where you would no longer be able to Tech the house at Luigi's Mansion uncharged with DI

Forward Smash on Mario KOs at around 115ish
Down Smash on Mario KOs at around 140ish
Up Smash on Mario KOs at around 115ish

This is from the center of Frigate Orpheon no matter what rotation uncharged with DI

 

[Timbers]

^You may want to specify what percent Lucario was when you took note of that. The FD numbers sound kind of off for 100, so I'm not sure what percent you used =\. I'm pretty sure a sweetspotted fsmash (at 100%) kills from center of FD at like, 110% on midweight.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

I put the "ish" there because I there was no hit decay on any of those moves... they were all fresh so I would assume that when you are in a match there will be some Hit Decay in effect when you get hit by those moves.

 

[Pentaoku]

Mario players that don't treat Lucario any different from other opponents like to down throw into up air, especially at low percents. You can jump out of it pretty easily though, and I think down air might work immediately too.

Mario likes edge guarding, but Lucario is difficult to edge guard using Mario. Fludd is only useful if you're recovering low and far, and still, you could DI to the right (saving your jump of course), and recover directly under the ledge to avoid the cape issue.

Mario's fire ball is a harasser/annoyer. It's Mario's way of keeping the battle at his pace, but you can break through them with charged aura spheres IIRC.

Nair's range is pathetic... but it lasts a long time, so make sure to space yourself if you want to punish it. Uair can be dodged pretty easily, down air might catch you, might, but chances are you'll be fine. Back air is annoying, space yourself.

The match seems to be generally being able to keep your cool under the fire (of the fireballs Mario throws) and keeping your spacing ahead of his. In the air you'll have an easier time since well, there aren't as many fire balls jumping around there.

My opinion of course.

 

[Timbers]

I put the "ish" there because I there was no hit decay on any of those moves... they were all fresh so I would assume that when you are in a match there will be some Hit Decay in effect when you get hit by those moves.

What. <.<

Mario players that don't treat Lucario any different from other opponents like to down throw into up air, especially at low percents. You can jump out of it pretty easily though, and I think down air might work immediately too.

Mario likes edge guarding, but Lucario is difficult to edge guard using Mario. Fludd is only useful if you're recovering low and far, and still, you could DI to the right (saving your jump of course), and recover directly under the ledge to avoid the cape issue.

Mario's fire ball is a harasser/annoyer. It's Mario's way of keeping the battle at his pace, but you can break through them with charged aura spheres IIRC.

Nair's range is pathetic... but it lasts a long time, so make sure to space yourself if you want to punish it. Uair can be dodged pretty easily, down air might catch you, might, but chances are you'll be fine. Back air is annoying, space yourself.

The match seems to be generally being able to keep your cool under the fire (of the fireballs Mario throws) and keeping your spacing ahead of his. In the air you'll have an easier time since well, there aren't as many fire balls jumping around there.

My opinion of course.

I agree with this.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Alright, I've updated the Mario section again. If there's anything I'm missing, or something you think I've got wrong, please tell me.

 

[PSYCHE]

Humph, I still think that Lucario is at a slight disadvantage...

 

[Milln]

This topic like.. completely nullifies the matchup information in the guide. D= h8 Jeepy so much.

I shall contribute to the Mario discussion.

Marios love shielding attacks and countering, not with a sheild grab, but with one of their aerails. Bair, Nair, and uair all work great for them which can lead to combos or fireball pressure. Keep your spacing so that they can't reciprocate on you with an aerial, or just don't get blocked. =D

Versus a Cape-Happy Mario that loves to gimp your ExtremeSpeed, don't wait to line up to the ledge and straight-shoot it. Start above and curve down into the ledge. It'll throw the Mario off once or twice. Either that or recover above the stage if you have to. Don't just give the Mario the gimp. Fall down further and go for the wall. Heck, throw a sphere at the ledge before you ExtremeSpeed it and the Mario will have to either take the hit and get stage spiked or cape the sphere and recover, leaving you with a second to decide where to go.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Luigi's Mansion: Luigi's Mansion: Mario’s main KO moves are practically null on Luigi’s Mansion. F-smash poses absolutely no threat (Whilst inside Mansion), and since being knocked off the stage is much rarer, the chance that you will be gimped by Mario’s cape decreases as well. You can afford to be a little aggressive here. Take advantage of Lucario’s lingering hit boxes, and make sure to punish Mario if he is above you; your u-air will go all the way through the floor of the second story.

Well first off the typo in the beginning. But the main reason why this is such a good stage against Mario is that his kill moves are horizontal and you can just tech all the smashes. You can survive with tech-ing to crazy percentages.