• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

Timbers

check me out
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
3,377
Location
hipster bay area
DK's is considerably faster (like..2x faster). Luc's has a lingering hitbox worth mentioning though, and "it's disjointed blahblahblah". The startup lag is pretty lame. I definitely wouldn't approach with it, but it's a great bait and spacing tool. I like it a lot for ledge pressuring, and it's a good KO move too when fresh =x

As far as priority and stuff, I dunno anything about which is better. DK's can cancel 100% full auraspheres (According to Milin, 117%+ full auraspheres will outprioritize it) though, so it's definitely not to be taken lightly.

I'm not totally sure why we're on the topic of who's bair is better though. Unlike DK's, ours is rarely, if ever, used as an approach. I wonder though how effective it'd be to bait his bair with it. You can make walls with the bair a lot better than you can auraspheres. I've honestly never tried this to any major extent. Has anyone had experience in this? I'm not saying this is an autowin against DK (because obviously baiting doesn't work when you're being overly predictable with it) but bair seems like the only really GOOD option for camping. You don't have to sit on the ledge and stay ways away from DK to aurasphere him (even when bair eats right through BAS) and you can essentially control the middle of the stage. Theoretically of course, I don't have any experience on this, so if anyone has tried this/can try it next time they play DK, let me know how it works.
 

Browny

Smash Hater
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
10,416
Location
Video Games
bair ***** DK recovery

it goes through his up-b. thats all you need to know. once you get him off stage far enough such that he is forced to use his upb you can just repeatedly camp him with your bair and it doesnt leave DK with too many options other than to recover way over the stage, where the landing lag is just begging for an fsmash. DK's upb has SA for what, 1-2 frames? bair lasts 35 or something? lol

its easy to learn to time lucarios bair to knock fox/falco out of thier illusion, since they only have a small time frame to activate it to sweetspot the edge. DK's is even easier to time since its so slow.
 

Timbers

check me out
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
3,377
Location
hipster bay area
Try thinking of a realistic situation where you're going to knock DK far enough back where he's forced to recover using his uB, and then have time to get in between him and the ledge and be able to execute a bair in time. It's not going to be easy. DK does not like sitting on the edge. If you're knocking him offstage, you're likely doing it from the center of the stage. All of Luc's moves send DK at a very diagonal trajectory (unless he DI's poorly) except for dsmash. If you're close enough to use dsmash, just know he's close enough to use his own dsmash, and if his dsmash isn't quicker than yours, then it's right behind it. DK is heavy. If Luc had a move like, Zelda's dsmash or Fox's bair, then we'd be able to start talking about how well DK's recovery is ***** by either aurasphere or bair. But unless you hit DK out of his midair jump, that's likely not going to happen.

It's a great thing to know if you do happen to stumble upon that, but it's not something you can really relish in as it's quite rare.
 

OneWingedAngelo1

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
266
Location
Rochester
DK vs Lucario Videos will be up some time Tuesday. (Probably around Midday)

Will edit this post of something with a Link and details on when in the videos specific things happen (such as showing DK Super Armor on Up B or showing how Lucario's Forward Smash reaches farther then DK... that kind of stuff)

Oh yeah... Lucario's Roll for the Win!
 

Timbers

check me out
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
3,377
Location
hipster bay area
DK's fsmash has a fairly greater range than Lucario's. If you're both pitted against each other, Lucario's is going to hit DK sooner than DK can hit Lucario. This is not because Luc's fsmash has a greater range (it doesn't), it's because DK is a huge target. I'm pretty sure someone already mentioned this in the thread. The only reason I think it's dangerous is because your ground spacing is generally in the sweetspot of his fsmash. This doesn't mean that he's going to land the fsmash everytime you're in the general vicinity. It's just something to keep an eye on, and it does make it quite dangerous. Roughly related to Marth. You might pass in and out of his tipzone more than 30 times in a game. It doesn't mean he's going to tipper you each and everytime you're in it. It's just something you want to avoid on the offchance you screw up or he gets lucky.

EDIT: Giant Punch has either the same or almost the same range as Lucario's fsmash. Just throwing that out there as he does get super armor on that <.<
 

OneWingedAngelo1

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
266
Location
Rochester
Drop the fsmash stuff already. DK's fsmash has a fairly greater range than Lucario's. If you're both pitted against each other, Lucario's is going to hit DK sooner than DK can hit Lucario. This is not because Luc's fsmash has a greater range (it doesn't), it's because DK is a huge target. I'm pretty sure someone already mentioned this in the thread. The only reason I think it's dangerous is because your ground spacing is generally in the sweetspot of his fsmash. This doesn't mean that he's going to land the fsmash everytime you're in the general vicinity. It's just something to keep an eye on, and it does make it quite dangerous. Roughly related to Marth. You might pass in and out of his tipzone more than 30 times in a game. It doesn't mean he's going to tipper you each and everytime you're in it. It's just something you want to avoid on the offchance you screw up or he gets lucky.

EDIT: Giant Punch has either the same or almost the same range as Lucario's fsmash. Just throwing that out there as he does get super armor on that <.<
I thought this kind of stuff was supposed to be PMed to each other (even though you did PM this to me... I dont see why you are posting it here... this is obviously directed at me). Come on, if I have to play nice you should have to play like that too...

Some one please delete this and the quoted post... >_>
 

Timbers

check me out
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
3,377
Location
hipster bay area
What stuff. You know fairly well that entire post was related to the matchup, except for the first sentence. If it really bothers you that much I'll remove that eency bit of irrelevant information.

EDIT: Jeepy, there's one thing that might have to be edited in the topic regarding DK.

The DK punch's partner in crime is the DownB. It will trap your character to either let DK charge his punch, or if ones already charged, let go just right so you fly from the punch.
The sideB is his headbutt, which was described. His downB is the special where he pounds on the ground and the shockwaves emerge. I don't know if it anyone who doesn't play DK cares about that, but just sayin'

And regarding the color tab matchups, should we leave them all blank for now, and fill them in as we go? Someone entering this thread would believe Lucas, TL, Ness, etc to all be bad matchups for Lucario. Now this may very well be true, but without actually discussing it, it kind of loses the purpose of discussing the matchup =[
 
Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Messages
1,715
Location
Rexburg, Idaho
Very good idea. Yea...

Anyways, I've used the bair as an approach option before. Not really to approach, but more like making a wall. It's pretty fun. I don't do it just against DK though, against many people I use it, hmm! There's a lot I could say on it, but it'd all come out as a big jumble so I won't. Using his bair from the ledge is a good tactic to. It seems to come out faster than most people expect it to when you do it like that.

Also, if you wait for DK to do his Fsmash and then do yours(assuming you've spaced correctly) and then use yours right after he does his, his fsmash will miss you by millimeters due to the backwards movement at the beginning of Lucario's fsmash and then his ending lag will allow you to hit him with the rest of your perfectly tipped fsmash. AURA TO THE FACE!
 

Nodrak

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
992
Location
Ontario, Canada
According to level 9 CPUs:
Mario vs Lucario
Game1: Mario wins with 13% on his last stock.
Game2: Mario wins with 54% on his last stock.

DK vs Lucario
Game1: Lucario wins with 0% on his last stock.
Game2: Lucario wins with 32% on his last stock.

Note: Best out of 3 games which are set to 3 stock at 7 minutes.

(not that this proves anything)
 

The Halloween Captain

Smash Master
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
4,331
Location
The northeast
According to level 9 CPUs:
Mario vs Lucario
Game1: Mario wins with 13% on his last stock.
Game2: Mario wins with 54% on his last stock.

DK vs Lucario
Game1: Lucario wins with 0% on his last stock.
Game2: Lucario wins with 32% on his last stock.

Note: Best out of 3 games which are set to 3 stock at 7 minutes.

(not that this proves anything)
Mario is deceptive. Aparently, he is known for having the best AI in Brawl, and can occationally defeat other AIs 2v1.
 

Jeepy Sol

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 6, 2007
Messages
798
Location
Northern California
Updated again. Not QUITE done yet, there are still some posts I haven't gotten to yet, but I should have some more done tonight. I'll also make the chart all blank.

As of now, seeing as we will move on to Link tomorrow, I am going to label the match-up 50:50. Gray. Unless you have any reasonable objections that you can support with evidence, that is what it will stay. Objections are welcome, though.
 

OneWingedAngelo1

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
266
Location
Rochester
I should have some good videos up tonight (the latest I hope, my friend is putting them on Youtube so I have to wait for him to do it) Hopefully they will help with what I have been saying...
 

OneWingedAngelo1

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
266
Location
Rochester
Updated again. Not QUITE done yet, there are still some posts I haven't gotten to yet, but I should have some more done tonight. I'll also make the chart all blank.

As of now, seeing as we will move on to Link tomorrow, I am going to label the match-up 50:50. Gray. Unless you have any reasonable objections that you can support with evidence, that is what it will stay. Objections are welcome, though.
Can we Vote on talking about someone else next... Not that Link isn't that worth talking about... but I am sure there are some match ups that people are more wanting to talk about since there are other characters in peoples competitive meta's that people are worried about more...

Other Characters I feel should be discussed some time before next month...

Snake...
Metaknight...
Marth...
Game And Watch...
Zelda...
Fox...
Falco...
Wolf...
King Dedede...
Pit...

None of those characters will be discussed within the next 2 months (except for Fox I think) if we keep up this progression. I feel like those are the characters that should get our attention the most since they are more then likely the harder match ups for Lucario.
 

RBNuke

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 9, 2008
Messages
88
Mmm, I'd like to pitch in that the match is at least slightly in Lucario's favor. Lucario can get right past DK's Bair spam and DK's weight makes him one of the easiest guys to combo. Lucario might have an issue with DK's exceptional tilts but rolling and jabbing disables most of this fairly well. DK's large hitbox also makes his easier to hit with Lucario's best moves - if DK lingers on the ledge you can aura sphere him and Lucario can gimp DK's recovery quite easily using Dair and Bair and AS. And once you land a fair he's pretty much completely at your mercy until he can turn himself around or land.

While I think DK is a better character than a lot of people give him credit for, I also think Lucario is an exceptional heavy-killer, and DK doesn't have enough speed or gimmicks to dodge any of lucario's insane combos - if you play an intelligent Luc and use combos and gimping instead of smashes, Lucario's got the edge.
 

Timbers

check me out
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
3,377
Location
hipster bay area
Very good idea. Yea...

Anyways, I've used the bair as an approach option before. Not really to approach, but more like making a wall. It's pretty fun. I don't do it just against DK though, against many people I use it, hmm! There's a lot I could say on it, but it'd all come out as a big jumble so I won't. Using his bair from the ledge is a good tactic to. It seems to come out faster than most people expect it to when you do it like that.

Also, if you wait for DK to do his Fsmash and then do yours(assuming you've spaced correctly) and then use yours right after he does his, his fsmash will miss you by millimeters due to the backwards movement at the beginning of Lucario's fsmash and then his ending lag will allow you to hit him with the rest of your perfectly tipped fsmash. AURA TO THE FACE!
I haven't had a large opportunity to try it. Most of the people I have played are those with A) disjointed hitboxes or B) projectiles. If people see you trying to make a wall, they could just spam projectiles =\ I always seem to get screwed pretty well by GaW's bair, TL's nair, Marth's fair, etc. But DK lacks both projectiles and disjointed hitboxes. If you can get a whiffed bair out of him and simutaneously hit him with the lingering hitbox, it might prove to be effective.

I don't know how long DK's fsmash keeps his hitbox extended, but it'd be pretty hard I think to try to fsmash him out of it. DKs I've played won't attempt the fsmash either unless they know you can't punish them (you're on the edge, you whiffed a DT, etc)
Updated again. Not QUITE done yet, there are still some posts I haven't gotten to yet, but I should have some more done tonight. I'll also make the chart all blank.

As of now, seeing as we will move on to Link tomorrow, I am going to label the match-up 50:50. Gray. Unless you have any reasonable objections that you can support with evidence, that is what it will stay. Objections are welcome, though.
I have no problem with neutral.
Can we Vote on talking about someone else next... Not that Link isn't that worth talking about... but I am sure there are some match ups that people are more wanting to talk about since there are other characters in peoples competitive meta's that people are worried about more...

Other Characters I feel should be discussed some time before next month...

Snake...
Metaknight...
Marth...
Game And Watch...
Zelda...
Fox...
Falco...
Wolf...
King Dedede...
Pit...

None of those characters will be discussed within the next 2 months (except for Fox I think) if we keep up this progression. I feel like those are the characters that should get our attention the most since they are more then likely the harder match ups for Lucario.
As it may ruin the flow of the chart, I agree. The upcoming characters just aren't that significant. It doesn't bother me either way. If we do follow the chart, it may give us more time to play the matchups that we really need to discuss, and possibly find effective counters against them.
 

tedward2000

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
2,395
Location
NAU
Well, by looking at our work.
I'd say we are just about done with DK.
good work mates! We got through the hairy beast with only a few casualties.

Of to link, unless someone else has something to say about DK that hasn't been said.
-t2
 

OneWingedAngelo1

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
266
Location
Rochester
Yes I am not the best Lucario... and yeah my DK opponent isn't the best at playing him BUT you can get a lot of good information out of these videos.

Game 1:Dom v Goodies 1
1:43
Aura Sphere kills DK when he sits on the ledge
2:03
DK gets a small window of Super Armor from Up B

Shows the benifits of Camping and Aura Sphere Pressure

Game 2:Dom v Goodies 2
1:50
Lucario Forward Smash > DK Forward Smash

Shows that our Forward Smash has more range then DK's

Game 3:Dom v Goodies 3
0:56
Great Extreme Speed >> Wall Jump >> Life!
0:59
"DK's Cargo Spike on Yoshi's Island"
2:36
How to avoid "DK's Cargo Spike on Yoshi's Island"
3:08
Lucario's Forward Smash > DK's Forward Tilt

Greatness of this Stage and how much I suck.

Game 4:Dom v Goodies 4
0:10
Extreme Speed >> Wall Cling >> Life!

Shows the greatness of this Stage, and effectiveness of Camping.

I hope this will show people some of the things that I was trying to talk about. I have also learned some good facts about this match up from playing this.

1.) MIND GAMES! They work great to mess with DK's flow (but the same can be said about every match up.

2.) ROLLING! If you wait until DK is Forward Tilting if you have the room to roll behind him you can get in AA>> Whatever combo off or just do an AA>> Delayed A and it should hit him out of his shield.

There is very very very little lag after you roll, so you can put of a shield to not get punished or start attacking right after it. USE THIS!

3.) STAGE SELECTION! This is sooo helpful when playing DK. Pick your stages wisely.
 

Timbers

check me out
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
3,377
Location
hipster bay area
First vid: DK didn't use his giant punch at all. Didn't even attempt it, and the sideB was nonexistant as well. I don't understand what was up with the uB on stage? He had 2 opportunities to kill you at 110% with dsmash, I don't know why he did uB. Also everytime DK got near you on the edge, you rolled right into him. He could have just dsmashed you if he was paying attention to your repetition.

Fsmash has less range than DKs. test it on the same sized target and you'll see. Lucario's fsmash has less range in general than DKs, but you will hit him before he hits Lucario thanks to how big he is.

EDIT: He whiffed the fsmash. When he uses fsmash, he extends his hitbox into his arms. You've mentioned it enough about how he has no disjointed attacks you should have known this.

I have to ask, is this your first match against DK? It was kind of basic stuff, so I don't really know what you learned from it unless you were unfamiliar with the match.

And thanks for the videos
 

OneWingedAngelo1

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
266
Location
Rochester
I know despite the whole "bitter internet hate" you have with me, but this is honestly not a biased statement.

First vid: DK didn't use his giant punch at all. Didn't even attempt it, and the sideB was nonexistant as well. I don't understand what was up with the uB on stage? He had 2 opportunities to kill you at 110% with dsmash, I don't know why he did uB. Also everytime DK got near you on the edge, you rolled right into him. He could have just dsmashed you if he was paying attention to your repetition.

Fsmash has less range than DKs. test it on the same sized target and you'll see. Lucario's fsmash has less range in general than DKs, but you will hit him before he hits Lucario thanks to how big he is.

I have to ask, is this your first match against DK? It was kind of basic stuff, so I don't really know what you learned from it unless you were unfamiliar with the match.
Wow... just Wow....

First... Drop the whole "bitter internet hate you have with me" I don't give a **** about you kid... really... shut up.

Second read the disclaimer...

Third... Re watch video 2 it clearly shows DK using his Forward Smash THEN Lucario using his Forward Smash, it has nothing to do with hitting first... he finished his attack before I hit him.

Fourth... Watch them all... if you noticed that I keep rolling throughout most of them... he caught on ... especially on Yoshi's Story.

Fifth... I don't know... someone else do this I don't want to feed his stupid rivalry BS
 

Timbers

check me out
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
3,377
Location
hipster bay area
Don't call me a kid. Even if you are indeed older than me, it sounds immature. I didn't want to come across as offensive and trying to single you out.

Read it, but I didn't know if this was suppose to show us a new stunning breakthrough to camp DK, which is certainly not the case.

His fsmash was extended when you hit him. He had afterlag. His afterlag leaves his hitbox extended throughout his arms.

I watched the first three. I guess he did catch on in the fourth, I'll take your word for it.

It's not a rivalry. I didn't even mean to be offensive or anything. Was it the first sentence? It was probably the first sentence. It seems to always be the first sentence. I'll take it out.
 

tedward2000

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
2,395
Location
NAU
Timbers, even If DK did get his full Fsmash out, Lucario's out prioritizes DK's when they where at those percents.
Lucario's fsmash is a bit longer, but not by much.

So if both where released at the same time (which they kinda where), Lucario's would have hit first, which it did. Because, Lucario's Fsmash out prioritizes it, so it when through DK's fsmash, canceling it, and hitting DK for the kill.

(Angles second video, is where im getting this from, but you two are talking about the third one...so...um...never mind this??)
-t2
 

Timbers

check me out
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
3,377
Location
hipster bay area
Naw we were talking about the second. And all the fsmash talk was about the range on the fsmashes. I never said whether one had more priority than the other. DK's fsmash has a greater reach than Lucario, I don't know why it's so hard for people who aren't in agreement with this to just go test it out yourself in practice room of wifi, or training mode, or something. We've already established that Lucario will hit DK with his fsmash before DK will hit Lucario. Lucario is a considerably smaller target than DK is, and his fsmash is disjointed. It doesn't change the fact that the fsmash sweetspot is still a scary spot to stay in for a relatively long time. The sweetspot is also Giant punch's sweetspot (A tad shorter in range) which gets super armor frames. So it doesn't matter if you hit him, giant punch is going to tear right through it and kill you <.<
 

dguy6789

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
1,585
Location
San Antonio, TX
The fsmash to fsmash argument isn't really important. If the DK knows you will fsmash, he is going to Donkey Punch. It was nice of you to go out of your way and get some videos, but they don't really contribute very much, sorry.
 

OneWingedAngelo1

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
266
Location
Rochester
The fsmash to fsmash argument isn't really important. If the DK knows you will fsmash, he is going to Donkey Punch. It was nice of you to go out of your way and get some videos, but they don't really contribute very much, sorry.
Shows the effectiveness of camping... (something that was discussed about but never got everyone to agree upon)....

That Lame Forward Smash debate was disprovened...

How we have plenty of recovery options that make it harder for DK to gimp us...

Rolling... something no one talked about during this thread. You can roll behind him when he does ANY of his attacks, and get in a nice AA>> whatever combo, or grab, or Double Team since he will probably want to Down Smash you... or Shield into something since you can get out the shield quicker then he can attack you...

No... Those videos contributed nothing... you're right.

Alrighty, it's time for Link!

This week shouldn't be too difficult. Have fun!
Why not talk about a more important match up then. Lucario is one of those characters that is just easier to master than Link. Therefore Link is going to have to work much harder to beat a Lucario player, which is completely doable, but if the Lucario player devotes the same amount of time and effort it shouldn't be too hard. The fact that you can gimp his recovery much more easily then almost anyone else puts this as a really hard match up for Link.

I will say this again... Can we please talk about characters that we will most likely see in competitive play...

Snake, Metaknight, DDD, Marth, Falco, Fox, Wolf, Toon Link, Zelda, Pit (pretty much in order of importance there)
 

dguy6789

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
1,585
Location
San Antonio, TX
If we do nothing but sugar coat everything with politically correct nonsense, then we will all be living in a fantasy world with tons of false truths. There isn't really a nice way to say it, and most likely nobody else will say anything, so I will just put it bluntly: the level of play in the videos provided is not sufficient enough to gain any relevant information on the match up. If I showed an amazing Lucario vs a horrible DK, people would base their ideas on the match up heavily in Lucario's favor. Likewise if the DK player was significantly more skilled than the Lucario, the opposite would be seen.

In order for a video to be relevant in a pure match up discussion, both players must be completely fluent(Read: Very Good) with their respective characters, and have a large amount of experience in the match up being played. That is to say both players must already know exactly what to do in every scenario vs the opponent. Matches have to be won based on nothing but proper application of the moveset, not because one person has no idea how to fight against the other character. The best possible video would be to get a high level Lucario player, a high level DK player, and have them play 1v1s twenty or more times. After that, then you can begin recording the matches and observe the character specific advantages and disadvantages.

Every character should be given time for discussion so that we can have a complete and accurate list that newer players can look upon. The top Link player will beat almost everyone who has posted in this thread in a 1v1 match just for reference.
 

OneWingedAngelo1

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
266
Location
Rochester
If we do nothing but sugar coat everything with politically correct nonsense, then we will all be living in a fantasy world with tons of false truths. There isn't really a nice way to say it, and most likely nobody else will say anything, so I will just put it bluntly: the level of play in the videos provided is not sufficient enough to gain any relevant information on the match up. If I showed an amazing Lucario vs a horrible DK, people would base their ideas on the match up heavily in Lucario's favor. Likewise if the DK player was significantly more skilled than the Lucario, the opposite would be seen.

In order for a video to be relevant in a pure match up discussion, both players must be completely fluent(Read: Very Good) with their respective characters, and have a large amount of experience in the match up being played. That is to say both players must already know exactly what to do in every scenario vs the opponent. Matches have to be won based on nothing but proper application of the moveset, not because one person has no idea how to fight against the other character. The best possible video would be to get a high level Lucario player, a high level DK player, and have them play 1v1s twenty or more times. After that, then you can begin recording the matches and observe the character specific advantages and disadvantages.

Every character should be given time for discussion so that we can have a complete and accurate list that newer players can look upon. The top Link player will beat almost everyone who has posted in this thread in a 1v1 match just for reference.
So since the top players don't waste their time with these boards because they are filled with people like "us" why are we every bothering...

This is just a bunch of inexperienced people arguing over nothing...
 

dguy6789

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
1,585
Location
San Antonio, TX
Most of the top players don't deal with the character boards anymore, only a few do. This is mainly because of all the newcomers that Brawl brought to this forum, the scrub players outnumber the knowledgeable veterans and pros by a significant margin. Back in the Melee days, a new person would come onto the board and say something, and then there would be a dozen people to correct him. As things are now, someone makes a thread, says something kind of wordy and long, and no matter how incorrect it is, you will have some people posting "yeah that's true" or "that's a good idea". Probably the best player in the entire section can come in and say "No, that's wrong." and the majority of posters will ignore it.

99% of the time, someone who has actively been on these boards for multiple years and has been to dozens of real life tournaments knows far far more about smash than some 13 year old who created an account last week. The people in the character specific forums for the most part don't seem to understand that for whatever reason. Long story short, the vets gave up on trying to use the character specific section as a section of really useful information because of the insane amount of misinformation.

The Lucario section is no exception to the above, but it isn't as bad as others are. Some members here have put forth great effort to try and help others learn about the game, and that is greatly appreciated.

That ended up being a bit longer than I intended it to be, oh well.
 
Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Messages
1,715
Location
Rexburg, Idaho
Hmmm...let's all relax now, aight? O_W_A, just relax dude. We should drop all this internet hate stuff. Sometimes people come off in a weird way on the internet, even though they don't act that way in real life.

You are correct dguy. It's exactly like that. Most of the experienced players stopped coming to take advise. Some stay to make sure that those who are new stay in line and learn what they're supposed to, meaning we all try to help the newcomers get better, though by what method one chooses is up to the person, hehe...

As a side note Timbers, I didn't say that the wall technique is very effective against everyone. Against many characters it works, particularly uber-floaty peoples like TL or Luigi, but definitely not against everyone. Rob? Snake?!? META? Nope. It works well on TL because if you're close to them they won't be spamming projectiles. It's probably a better choice to do an fair, then as you land behind your opponent(generally in a short hop) do a c-stick bair. Usually it takes them off guard. If their shield is exposing their head, you can hit their head with it. If it opens at their feet, you can hit their feet with the bair, etc. These things are, however, always situational, but it's always good to keep a lookout. As is the random fact I threw in about the fsmashes. Just a fact, not something labeled as recommended to try out though, as you will probably mess up on something like spacing and get fsmashed to the face yourself.

Anyways...I think that the only thing that DK would have on Luc is his ability to kill at low percentages. If you DI correctly though, that shouldn't be too much of a problem. They try to take you out around 60-80% and they do not use their kill moves(smashes, DK punch) very often, so if you can just get past that little area, you'll be well in the 100%'s before they kill you giving you the chance to KO them. Plus then you can defend yourself with AS, as it has lots of priority at those percentages. This match-up is easily decided on stage choice as well. I agree with Jeepy Sol, keep the match-up even.

Now...we should be discussing Link now, eh? Link is...way different than in Melee. I don't know much about this match-up, so I'll wait for other people to say stuff before I try to contribute. Or go play against a Link and test stuff such as priority against projectiles, range, etc. Maybe later...
 

tedward2000

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
2,395
Location
NAU
Everyone just needs to calm down. Take a chill pill and get off the internet for a day.
This got way out of hand.
What ever happened to the love and peace on the Lucario boards?

But Dguy is true, sadly. Its the rest of us that have to fill in their shoes to help the new comers. And with more new comers coming in and saying what ever pops in their head, its hard to fix that bombardment of false knowledge.
But we can do our best.

And I said this last night, We have moved onto LINK. No more DK stuff, its over and done with.
If you have something to add to DK, cool good for you. DON'T.
Sorry if this comes off rough and what not, but it needs to be said.

Again, its link now peoples. Go Discuss!
-t2
 

dguy6789

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
1,585
Location
San Antonio, TX
I have played against really good Links like F.E.A.R. and Legan, but I haven't played against them enough to have a solid idea on matchup specifics. I want to avoid saying this matchup is in Lucario's favor just because Link isn't so great. We need specifics.
 

Timbers

check me out
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
3,377
Location
hipster bay area
So since the top players don't waste their time with these boards because they are filled with people like "us" why are we every bothering...

This is just a bunch of inexperienced people arguing over nothing...
There's a very broad line between inexperienced and "the top player." Most people here may not be winning a constant $1500 pot, but most of us should have enough knowledge to at least give an accurate contribution to Lucario's basics, ATs, matchups, etc.

As a side note Timbers, I didn't say that the wall technique is very effective against everyone. Against many characters it works, particularly uber-floaty peoples like TL or Luigi, but definitely not against everyone. Rob? Snake?!? META? Nope. It works well on TL because if you're close to them they won't be spamming projectiles. It's probably a better choice to do an fair, then as you land behind your opponent(generally in a short hop) do a c-stick bair. Usually it takes them off guard. If their shield is exposing their head, you can hit their head with it. If it opens at their feet, you can hit their feet with the bair, etc. These things are, however, always situational, but it's always good to keep a lookout. As is the random fact I threw in about the fsmashes. Just a fact, not something labeled as recommended to try out though, as you will probably mess up on something like spacing and get fsmashed to the face yourself.
I like the idea of the bair wall just because you can bait your opponent and keep a safe hitbox out while pressuring them. I haven't particularly enjoyed using it on TL, one being that he can pull out an arrow before you can bair. Other being he's a small hitbox, and third being how incredibly fast and lengthy his own disjointed aerials are. I haven't played a Luigi in a while though, but I definitely agree that it would work on him, as his entire game is in the air.

I like it against characters who are forced to approach you. TL is no doubt one of the campiest characters in the game, so I don't know how well it would work with him, but so far I haven't gotten any positive feedback from it.

As far as Link goes, I don't have anything to say about him. He's pretty heavy, but his recovery is balls. You should really have no problem getting the gimp on him. Unlike DK, he has poor horizontal DI and his recovery is trashy in the vertical sense, and lacks the insane horizontal distance that DK's has.

I don't have much experience with the matchup though, so I'm going to leave it at that.
 

tedward2000

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
2,395
Location
NAU
Hey! Listen! (sigh...)

Link, the left handed green man in tights. The Hero of Hyrule and Time.
To bad the same can't be said for Link in Brawl.

He's a good character with a nice arsenal of attacks. His double hit fsmash, and ever so deadly Dair. A good use of his boot and a quick swordsmanship grants Link the ability to kill effortless.

What makes him a known though, is his amount of projectiles.
Bombs, Arrows and Boomerangs, oh my!
And don't think twice that he won't be using them. All three of them can be "linked" together to make for some nasty chains.
His grab, is a distant one, the claw shot. On ground, it can reach out and pull you closer to link for a throw. In the air, it will reach out and punch you.

His Shield will stop BAS's without him needing to move, so spamming will have to get technical if you want to hit him. All though, he does kinda move around when He's standing still, so BAS's can hit. But its better to charge them.

His priority level however is a bit lax, and his ability to save him self from a fall is in the deep end. Once he's off the stage, Link will need all his fairies in his jars to save himself. Sure his Up-B is great as a KO'er and a recovery, but its not very horizontal in the air. Making for a fancy light show, before his death.

If you let him, Link will take that sword of his and mince you up.
But good timing, quick response and recovery will hand this match to Lucario.

-t2
 

Pentaoku

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
172
Link is by no means an opponent to be underestimated, except when he's off the stage.

However, on stage, his range is pretty good. Unlike Toon Link, his first slash on his forward smash is enough to send you flying, so he'll only do the second hit as a mind game sort of thing. He can really close the space between you two with his boost smash. If you haven't seen the range on it, go look up a video. While it looks scary, it's really not that bad after you've seen it once or twice. In fact, if you see it coming, Link's a sitting duck for an Aura Sphere or f-smash if you're fast enough. His up smash is pretty powerful in general, and it doesn't have issues keeping you stuck for all three hits until very high percents in which you probably should be dead anyway. His down smash is powerful as well, like a middle ground between the non-tip and tipped Marth down smashes.

Link also has jab cancel combos, but if you're paying attention, he most likely will not be able to follow it up (f-tilt or f-smash are the follow ups I can recall at the moment), so you should just be prepared to eat the third hit, or roll out of the way. Also becareful, his up-tilt can juggle you if you just fall back down, and f-tilt hits behind him on the start up swing. Down tilt will spike you if you're hanging on the edge, but you shouldn't really be on the edge that long anyway. You'll also have to watch out for Link's z-air (the clawshot), it has pretty long reach and two disjointed hit boxes if I recall correctly... It's used during approaches AND retreats because of it's range. Though since Lucario isn't THAT big, you'll probably be able to shield it or air dodge it just fine.

His projectile game can get annoying. His arrows are rather fast (though at higher percents, I believe aura sphere will past right through them), and his bombs, while not as big as Toon Link's in their explosion, have higher knockback, which can get annoying. The Gale Boomerang can be stopped with an Aura Sphere, but it's pretty fast and some Link's use it for Edge guarding, though it doesn't seem to be an effective tactic on Lucario, since it mainly shuts down poor recoveries like... other Links anyway. Link players can also arrow cancel, which basically allows them to fire arrows VERY quickly but at the minimum range (which isn't that bad actually). However since the arrow arcs low, you can jump over it easily. Link has a huge variety of techniques with bombs, some of them being able to smash attack while having the bomb in hand, so don't think you're safe from smashes just because they have a bomb in their hand. Also try to use the Gale Boomerang's ability to bring you closer to him to your advantage and not his. Link's spin attack on the ground is somewhat of a punishing move, and while it's not likely to KO you right off the bat, it does have mean horizontal knockback, so try not to let him hit you with it.

In the air, you should be wary of what Link can do, but certainly not afraid. His up-air is a powerful attack and it's hard for me to tell if you can trounce it with down air, but because it's slow you can probably avoid it with an airdodge. It also lasts quite a bit, and Link has to use it high up in the air or he'll get landing lag from it. His down air is a killer, a very powerful killer. It doesn't insta-fall like Toon Link's, so it's much easier to see coming, so just becareful while you're trying to combo him from below using Lucario's up tilts and up airs. Link's back air has 'ok' range, and it is a quick move, though since he's kicking you, feel free to kick him back with a disjointed hit box. Treat his nair like you would most sex kicks. His forward air can kill you if you get hit by it, but it's pretty shabby on range as well, and it's not very fast on execution (I think it's start up is similar to our back air but maybe a bit faster?), and it has multiple hits, so just kick him with fair or something before he can get it started.

The main things you'll probably see from Link are projectiles, followed by attempts to launch you into the air and then follow up with aerials, or simply to stay on the ground and attempt to kill you via smashes. Most of their damage racking will be a result of projectiles, jabs and tilts, and if they can, smashes. Up smash and forward smash deal quite a bit of damage, and forward smash can connect both hits at low percents. Link's aerial game isn't a big issue if you play it cool, because your aerials will beat his, almost by speed and priority alone. His ground game isn't bad at all, but I wouldn't say it's better than ours. We can probably rack damage faster than Link can, and we don't really "have to." Get Link off the edge and slap a few fairs, or a dair, maybe even a BAS, and well he cries explosive tears that turn into fireworks. His tether recovery is mediocre, and while his spin attack has high priority, it doesn't shield him completely. In terms of him trying to gimp you, he might try to run off the edge and fair/(dair if they're feeling courageous) you, but he'll probably prefer to just wait on stage with some projectiles, because they don't want to risk being gimped themselves.

That's the input I have, feel free to point out any mistakes you see.
 

Timbers

check me out
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
3,377
Location
hipster bay area
Basic moveset analysis:

Jabs: He outranges you. Speed fairly slower than your own.

Fsmashes:
Link's has roughly the same range (lolwtf?) and has a quicker startup time than Lucario's. While both characters are able to stutterstep their fsmashes, Link's fsmash gets a HUGE boost (roughly 1/3 additional distance over Lucario). Be careful.

Usmashes:
Well we already know Lucario's is nothing great, so onto Link's. He can boost smash the usmash, gives him quite a good distance as well. What's so great about his is that his usmash covers a wide range and multi-hit. It's rare he'll actually ever miss with it. Usmash will be integrated into his game as a way to rack damage. It does it's job, too. Quick startup. I've seen it boost smashed out of a bombthrow, but I haven't played many Links. This may be a weird quirk for the ones I do play, but just throwing it out there.

Dsmash: Like everything ever, Link's dsmash also has a greater range than Lucario's. It's a sweep, though. The first sweep (in front of him) comes out insanely fast. The second sweep will hit roughly the same time it takes for you to startup your own dsmash. (I have no frame data, sorry :\)

Tilts: Ftilt outranges your own, but slower. Be careful though, it's a killer, and covers behind him (somewhat) and the entire front of his body. Utilt is also slower, but covers an insane amount of space. Don't land on him with dair, his utilt and usmash will both outrange you. Seen it used to juggle into a usmash. Haven't seen any fundamental use to his dtilt. It's slow though, and lacks range.

Aerials: You have his air game beat. Fair is a killer though, and outranges your own fair. Your Bair outranges it. Keep in mind the fair is two hits though. Also be aware of zair (grapple) as it has a great amount of range on it, and quite damaging. Seen it lead into boost smash usmash and dash attack and jab. His uair does outrange your dair, and his dair has an insane amount of priority. Both are killers. They're somewhat slow and laggy though, but don't be predictable on approaching him.

Projectiles: His>yours. The retreating boomerang will drag you closer to him. If you're not aware of it at all times, you'll find yourself being dragged into a smash. Links I have played seem to think their bombs are their pride and joy, and love making good use of them.

I can't say anything on Link's metagame or how he puts these moves to use. Have only played one person extensively locally that uses Link, and another one on wifi.
 

Nurotasama

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
465
Link's bombs stop any AS at any percent. I don't really play Link or play versus them much, so I can't really add any input on this char. Just note it might be a while before we get to a char I know about. :p

It shouldn't be too hard to beat Link if you can get him near a ledge, though (which I would assume he would be near one if he is camping). Link has an awful recovery, so if you can throw him off the ledge and fair combo or AS juggle him away a bit he should have a difficult time trying to make it back. And if he could somehow reach back, his horrible vertical height on his Up-B is just asking to be edgehogged by ES from the stage.
 

Jeepy Sol

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 6, 2007
Messages
798
Location
Northern California
I will say this again... Can we please talk about characters that we will most likely see in competitive play...

Snake, Metaknight, DDD, Marth, Falco, Fox, Wolf, Toon Link, Zelda, Pit (pretty much in order of importance there)
Because it is important to discuss all the characters. There are people that have trouble with Link. In fact, a thread was made just yesterday asking for help. We will get to all the characters eventually.


If a lot of people have a problem with this, I can change it.


Oh, and I think I may stop doing the "Winner of the Week". Something tells me that is what may have been causing all the fighting.
 

Nurotasama

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
465
Could you change the colour in the image, though, to have something to signify still being debated? So we don't have an incident where we don't know if it was updated.
 

manhunter098

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
1,100
Location
Orlando, Sarasota, Tampa (FL)
Looking at this matchup, I would say Lucario is going to do best in the air with careful spacing. Link play kind of like Ike does in respect to his close combat game, he waits to punish, because his attacks are all too slow to use for an approach.

That said I think that while Link can use bombs and projectiles to stop Lucario's camping game, the reverse is true as well. I know a baby aura sphere will stop Links bombs, and Im pretty sure it stops his boomerang and arrows as well.

That said it puts both characters in a rather un-fun position. As neither will really want to approach, but neither can really effectively camp against the other as well. Also something to be aware of is that against a projectile user like Link, double team works wonders and his boomerang isnt really an issue on the return because he needs to pay attention to it as much as you do, otherwise he could get a f-smash in the face because of it.


So onto the approach. With both characters projectile camping ability pretty much nullified by the matchup, someone has to approach, luckily, Lucario has a pretty decent approach and with some decent spacing that shouldnt be a problem and if he tries to use projectiles to stop you, you can just hasten your approach by using double team, just make sure you can hit with it before you try.

Something else to know about Link is that he is going to try to control the center of the stage. Since due to a terrible recovery he wants to be as far from the edge as possible. This means you arent really going to have to cross a stage of projectile spam to get to him, more like half a stage, and because of this he has a great disadvantage on stages that are smaller, like Smashville for example since he is close to getting knocked off at all times.


I think that Lucario has the advantage in this matchup though. Dont feel like analyzing too much more right now though. But overall...Link has rather limited potential, thats obvious, and Lucario, not so much.
 
Top Bottom