Veril
Frame Savant
Fixed. The triforce of f***ing physics > courage.
At least it was... Its hard to wrap my mind around Link being good.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Link+ [Updated 10-8 - Farewell F-Air, we hardly knew ye]
- Thread starter Shadic
- Start date
At least it was... Its hard to wrap my mind around Link being good.
Its hard for me to wrap my mind around Link having favorable matchups.
I mean in melee he had a few, maybe 5-7. But In B+, He is going to have like 13-16 favorable matchups.
And some of those will be big. I mean look at snake, a character link almost went even with in VB. Its got to be a huge advantage for us now.
I see probably 4-5 characters where link has 65-70:30 advantages and 3-4 characters where he is disadvantaged just as much.
My mind is blown.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
We'd need a boomerang that works to keep people away that well. 
Not that I'm complaining, of course. New Link is sexy.
Not that I'm complaining, of course. New Link is sexy.
Kief
Smash Ace
Fine don't listen to me. I'm not skilled enough to be given a voice of opinion anyway. I'd say 60-40 jiggs if it mattered. I think you guys are making link a tad overrated. As improved as he is, he'd still be in the bottom half if there was a tier list.
(and the way you're talking is just asking for a nerf)
(and the way you're talking is just asking for a nerf)
Veril
Frame Savant
I pretty much agree. Fighting Link with Jiggs follows the same general rules as in vbrawl with far less room for error on anyone's part. Jiggs can KO off a grab at low to mid %, WoP offstage easily into a weak > strong f-air combo for the KO, and just generally juggle the s*** out of link in any number of ways. We have multiple means of comboing into grabs, and even if we don't d-throw > rest, we have a lot of other options. Jiggs also has super maneuverability and speed in the air.
Link though... has that f***ing sword. D-air KOs us soooo fast. KOing with rest often just leads to Jiggs dying cause of how well Link can punish it. Zair combos work on us, which is annoying since its normally pretty tough to combo Jiggs. You outrange us in every way.
But... then you get b-aired offstage and die.
60:40 Jiggs.
We'd need a boomerang that works to keep people away that well.
Not that I'm complaining, of course. New Link is sexy.
Not true.
The mere fact that link has MOMENTUM allows him to play that metagame against characters with extremely poor or no projectiles and or subpar speed and priority.
You put Momentum projectiles and Bomb sliding or jump cancel throw bombs together with the improved zair and Link actually has a meta game that says Keep the #@$% away from me.
But the thing is, This new metagame actually works for Link, these moves are now better in terms of setups giving him the ability to go on the offense.
Therefore, Links best metagame will most likely look like this.
Link uses range and projectiles to keep such characters away and that range provides setups for offensive combo's
In these matchups Link will have the advantage
EX/ Snake, Bowser, Ganon,
Characters that have better projectiles that can outcamp Link or compete with his spacing
EX/ Falco, TL, Ivy?????/
Characters that have the ability to gimp Link
EX/ MK, Kirby, (Well lets be honest, almost every character, its his main weakness)
Or small or medium characters with immense speed to weave through Link's spacing and punish with combos(Few large characters can do this because they are easier to hit)
EX/ Sonic, Fox, Squirtle
Charactes possessing one of these abilities will probably go about even with Link
Characters possessing one or more of these abilities will have an advantage over him.
The Phazon Assassin
Smash Champion
I'm not sure what happened between two days ago and now, but I've become quite fond of him. There's a couple changes I would like to suggest, but I know this isn't the place for that. I'm just gonna say one thing:
Up-B Bomb Jump.
Up-B Bomb Jump.
You know what.
As a quick survey I'd just like to ask.
If you could just one thing, what do you like most about the changes or the way Link is now?
I ask because I want to know what change you think helped him the most. I think the answer will help develop a metagame.
As a quick survey I'd just like to ask.
If you could just one thing, what do you like most about the changes or the way Link is now?
I ask because I want to know what change you think helped him the most. I think the answer will help develop a metagame.
Sails
Smash Ace
Here are the videos Shadic promised. I don't think they are that great, but they are good for demonstrating Links differences now.
(Shadic) Link VS Link (Sonicandtails): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5-SajThlfk&fmt=18
Link Three-For-All (Sonicandtails, Shadic, Retegido): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNUAQLjbquY&fmt=18
(Shadic) Link VS Link (Sonicandtails): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5-SajThlfk&fmt=18
Link Three-For-All (Sonicandtails, Shadic, Retegido): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNUAQLjbquY&fmt=18
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Ignore the second video, probably. Nothing like playing with a full second of lag.
The first one has a couple of good moments, but there was still lag for sure. The ending was kinda cool, though.
The first one has a couple of good moments, but there was still lag for sure. The ending was kinda cool, though.
Kief
Smash Ace
Ivy can out spam us. Ivy spams faster than Pit now. It's insane. In fact, i'll go out and say that not only can Ivy spam better than anyone besides falco, but he/she (i consider him a he
) is the best character in the game right now.
Ivy's spam is fast, but horrible.Ivy can out spam us. Ivy spams faster than Pit now. It's insane. In fact, i'll go out and say that not only can Ivy spam better than anyone besides falco, but he/she (i consider him a he
Razor Leaf has the priority you would expect a leaf to have, and really ANY move will break it if you just hit it. If Ivy feels like sitting back and throwing them at you, just jab them and spam back and show her (dunno why I always consider Ivy to be a she) what real projectiles are like
Yea. But Ivy's razor leaf is way better than our arrows. She will approach to spam range and spam away.
Now that her spam is so fast, our old weapon that we used to compete with her, the boomerang, isn't as good. The boomerang use to be slightly faster and since they canceled eachother We would gain ground.
The reverse is true now.
And Bombs, We'll they don't seem to be very good against Ivy.
Ivy's interesting, She is exactly like Link. Xcept her on stage is slightly better and he offstage is slightly worse. It's literally like looking in a mirror.
Ivy is probably the BEST spacer in the game. and Link is a EASILY 2nd. But being the best spacer isn't the same as being the best spammer. Link will have trouble in matches where he is outspammed.
Of course he'll have trouble against good gimpers.
Small and fast characters who can get inside will also be lots of trouble (Fox Squirt)
Other than those types of characters, Link will actually have matchup advantages. Something I have never seen before!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now that her spam is so fast, our old weapon that we used to compete with her, the boomerang, isn't as good. The boomerang use to be slightly faster and since they canceled eachother We would gain ground.
The reverse is true now.
And Bombs, We'll they don't seem to be very good against Ivy.
Ivy's interesting, She is exactly like Link. Xcept her on stage is slightly better and he offstage is slightly worse. It's literally like looking in a mirror.
Ivy is probably the BEST spacer in the game. and Link is a EASILY 2nd. But being the best spacer isn't the same as being the best spammer. Link will have trouble in matches where he is outspammed.
Of course he'll have trouble against good gimpers.
Small and fast characters who can get inside will also be lots of trouble (Fox Squirt)
Other than those types of characters, Link will actually have matchup advantages. Something I have never seen before!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Phazon Assassin
Smash Champion
It's very hard to say what helped him the most. He's improved in so many ways. BUT, his new and improved D-Tilt spike is amazing. I love it to death. Combine that with no ledge sweetspots, and you're in heaven.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
I just got back in the loop of things, I'm unfamiliar with some of the new jargon and the like, but I'm loving Link so far. Him and CF make me happy. He's so **** fast now, which is ironic cause just the other day I was telling a friend how I never understood why they made him a slow character in the first place, as he wasn't really slow in his actual games.
But yeah, his sex kick is **** now, loving it. His bair is actually usable... I dare say better than it was in Melee (even then it was lackluster but it was way, WAY better than it was in vBrawl). All around, his aerial shffl game is incredible, he has fun setups, relatively fast, and the lil ******* won't die if you DI up (and avoid gimps).
Fun stuffs.
But yeah, his sex kick is **** now, loving it. His bair is actually usable... I dare say better than it was in Melee (even then it was lackluster but it was way, WAY better than it was in vBrawl). All around, his aerial shffl game is incredible, he has fun setups, relatively fast, and the lil ******* won't die if you DI up (and avoid gimps).
Fun stuffs.
TL?
Smash Ace
I really like the semi spike up-B.
Kief
Smash Ace
is it me or did our dsmash get weaker?
EDIT: what ever happened with the upB problem?
aand holy crap usmash is a kill move now. o_O
i thought it was gonna be for combos now, but im fine with this.
EDIT: what ever happened with the upB problem?
aand holy crap usmash is a kill move now. o_O
i thought it was gonna be for combos now, but im fine with this.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
I've made a new Jump Comparison, and I think it's better:
It's the physics Shadic. It means Link can actually....follow up with an air move more consistently. *GASP*
O and Shanus knows about the up-b. There is no need to press the issue right now. Leave it up to the back room. We should be thankful for what we have.
O and Shanus knows about the up-b. There is no need to press the issue right now. Leave it up to the back room. We should be thankful for what we have.
Kief
Smash Ace
Alright why don't we talk about how Link does on the new neutrals like Luigi's Mansion, WarioWare, Pokemon Stadium 2, and the Wifi Waiting Room. I personally love Luigi's Mansion as Link. It's nice and spacious, and the platforms are a great height for SH aerials and utilt/usmash. It also seems to have a really high ceiling, which is obvoiusly good for us as well.
Alright.
I'll go out on a limb and say PS2 is Links best stage. The 2 platforms on the side can promote circular camping and link owns circular camping. Its perfect for his ranged game play now that his range actually can work as setups. Also, you don't have to deal with that third platform like on battle field that often gets in the way. The length of PS2 is also larger than battle field and the ledges aren't gay like PS1. Characters also can't do gay things like fly under the stage and scare jump effectively like on FD SV BF YI and WWare
FD is FD. It hasn't changed much. Pure spacing nothing more. Acts exactly the same as VB.
Wifi Waiting room plays exactly like a larger FD.I think this is actually bad because it begins to promote long range camping instead of mid range. However, it is easier to control the center of the stage because of its largeness so recovery isn't as much as a problem.
Wario ware is interesting. Its really bad for Link because you can't space properly. But its also really good because you don't have to recover due to short blast zones.
Luigi's Mansion to me is a lesser version of PS2. Maybe a hybrid between that and the Wifi waiting room/FD. It's a really good stage but the platforms are a little to short and the stage a little to long to promote the awesomeness of circular camping that PS2 does. But it is still possible. It's an okay stage.
Battle field is Battle field. Nothing has changed.
The same with smashville
I'll go out on a limb and say PS2 is Links best stage. The 2 platforms on the side can promote circular camping and link owns circular camping. Its perfect for his ranged game play now that his range actually can work as setups. Also, you don't have to deal with that third platform like on battle field that often gets in the way. The length of PS2 is also larger than battle field and the ledges aren't gay like PS1. Characters also can't do gay things like fly under the stage and scare jump effectively like on FD SV BF YI and WWare
FD is FD. It hasn't changed much. Pure spacing nothing more. Acts exactly the same as VB.
Wifi Waiting room plays exactly like a larger FD.I think this is actually bad because it begins to promote long range camping instead of mid range. However, it is easier to control the center of the stage because of its largeness so recovery isn't as much as a problem.
Wario ware is interesting. Its really bad for Link because you can't space properly. But its also really good because you don't have to recover due to short blast zones.
Luigi's Mansion to me is a lesser version of PS2. Maybe a hybrid between that and the Wifi waiting room/FD. It's a really good stage but the platforms are a little to short and the stage a little to long to promote the awesomeness of circular camping that PS2 does. But it is still possible. It's an okay stage.
Battle field is Battle field. Nothing has changed.
The same with smashville
Caleb Wolfbrand
Smash Master
we just hosted a Brawl+ tourney here, 9 entries, and a Link player won. Just lettin it known. He was very, very scary. Hookshot + fair makes for an interesting wall of things you don't want to get hit by!
keep it up Link players :D
keep it up Link players :D
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Any chance you've got some videos? Or at least just replays? I'd love to watch some of the matches. And get somebody to upload them on YouTube. :D
Kief
Smash Ace
Hmm. I don't like PS2 as much. I think the platforms are too high for SH fairs, bairs, and nairs. It is a good stage though. I think that overall, the addition of these four neutrals really helps Link.
@TRC: Was it online or in person? And who was the Link main?
@TRC: Was it online or in person? And who was the Link main?
It is good to see our testing and suggestions work out!
God, I'm glad he won but also fearful.
The last thing I want Link to be is too good and needing nerfs. I hope he doesn't outright dominates tourneys. If that happens, even I would work with the WBR to help nerf Link appropriately.
To restate, the zair buff was REALLY REALLY GOOD. (I should know, it was my idea) it flat out DESTROYS large characters but I think you can DI it.
Also, we are still TESTING.
the WBR has the best intentions in the world. It has been an honor and a pleasure to be part of a community with intelligent decision makers. If something is wrong, they can take care of it.
Also, we are still TESTING.
the WBR has the best intentions in the world. It has been an honor and a pleasure to be part of a community with intelligent decision makers. If something is wrong, they can take care of it.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
We are looking at the d-tilt spikes on Pit and Link. I find them to be rather brainless KOs and though they don't happen very often, they can kind of flop matches to be a little more one sided. Do you guys find the d-tilt to be a major part of your edge game, or can we agree that with all the other buffs Link got we can look at removing it? It's that or change it into a meteor with a lower base.
Make it weaker.... like you guys did with gannons air wiz kick. He has always had the spike it just dident used to work... As for pit. Pits is faster than links so do the same to pits (or ask the pit mains) but whatever is done to links should probley be done to pits. Just my opinion...
Also its not like some chars (marth, meta, bowser, zard, G&W ect) dont also have insane on stage edge gaurds that are much easier to use.
So... the dtilt spike would be great if it only killed around 60 on chars with bad recoverys and 90 or so on chars with good ones.
Also its not like some chars (marth, meta, bowser, zard, G&W ect) dont also have insane on stage edge gaurds that are much easier to use.
So... the dtilt spike would be great if it only killed around 60 on chars with bad recoverys and 90 or so on chars with good ones.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
I think lowering the base KB on the Dtilt would be fine. Link already really ***** big characters. Small characters are a total pain, though.
I decided to show everyone the pm I sent you GOG
A. The move creates very one sided match ups in a few characters
B. The original purpose of the move was onstage setups and edge guards
B1. With dash attack and zair, Link has onstage setups now, GOOD ONES. (D-tilt is no longer needed for this purpose)
B2. With the new perfect physics and fair, Link can edge guard slightly better. If you don't believe me try it. Link can get higher for Uairs and flying dairs for characters that try to escape him by going high and low.
C. The move is not important to his current metagame right now in my opinion because it has very short range and is slow in comparison to his other moves.
D. The move should be a meteor not a spike and even if removed, with no ASL hitting our sweet-spot would still be possible. It would be hard but possible. What I would do is make the sweetspot a spike and take the rest out.
Last point:
If Link is too good I would either raise ARL on him to 40%, decrease damage on a move or too. or tweak the d-tilt. In compensation for putting in these good buffs, you most certainly can take a few early ideas like these out.
PLEASE DON'T MESS WITH ANYTHING ELSE BECAUSE IT FINALLY WORKS PERFECTLY
...............After thinking about it more, D-tilt SHOULD be nerfed. I don't care if its removed or made to a meteor. With No ASL, I'm sure its still possible to hit our sweetspot. I'll leave it to the WBR to decide how to nerf it.
GOG, your right
A. The move creates very one sided match ups in a few characters
B. The original purpose of the move was onstage setups and edge guards
B1. With dash attack and zair, Link has onstage setups now, GOOD ONES. (D-tilt is no longer needed for this purpose)
B2. With the new perfect physics and fair, Link can edge guard slightly better. If you don't believe me try it. Link can get higher for Uairs and flying dairs for characters that try to escape him by going high and low.
C. The move is not important to his current metagame right now in my opinion because it has very short range and is slow in comparison to his other moves.
D. The move should be a meteor not a spike and even if removed, with no ASL hitting our sweet-spot would still be possible. It would be hard but possible. What I would do is make the sweetspot a spike and take the rest out.
Last point:
If Link is too good I would either raise ARL on him to 40%, decrease damage on a move or too. or tweak the d-tilt. In compensation for putting in these good buffs, you most certainly can take a few early ideas like these out.
PLEASE DON'T MESS WITH ANYTHING ELSE BECAUSE IT FINALLY WORKS PERFECTLY
...............After thinking about it more, D-tilt SHOULD be nerfed. I don't care if its removed or made to a meteor. With No ASL, I'm sure its still possible to hit our sweetspot. I'll leave it to the WBR to decide how to nerf it.
Clever_Sleazoid
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2008
- Messages
- 188
I honestly don't have the impression at all that Link is "too good".
I think he can stay as is. And if there is a nerf, do it to the ARL. I love the dtilt (on stage, most people recovering properly won't get hit by it anyway).
I think he can stay as is. And if there is a nerf, do it to the ARL. I love the dtilt (on stage, most people recovering properly won't get hit by it anyway).
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
A lower base would be interesting, but then it might link (lol) into the spin attack. Not necessarily a bad thing (actually sounds pretty BA). It's just something I have talked about with the others. It's like Bowser Don't Care in my eyes. A good bandaid fix until he got his second pass and now it just feels a little outdated. Don't read too much into the whole thing, I don't want to detract from the whole thread.
Also, don't worry. We don't think Link is 'too good.'
Also, don't worry. We don't think Link is 'too good.'
Finns7
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2008
- Messages
- 896
LOL so the dtilt makes Link feel too easy? Am I reading this right O_O
Link shoud stay were he is. Until I see video proof or feedback from tourneys (No one quality picked link at the recent one T_T) I say leave him alone. What matchups are made lopsided??? Because I can bet that char has something obscene he can do back to link. Someone show me a quality match of 2 pros.
When I played zeonstar I got a fistfully of dark magic in my nuts when I tried it. Now on bowser and DK its a different story but then again they can **** you offstage also.
Link shoud stay were he is. Until I see video proof or feedback from tourneys (No one quality picked link at the recent one T_T) I say leave him alone. What matchups are made lopsided??? Because I can bet that char has something obscene he can do back to link. Someone show me a quality match of 2 pros.
When I played zeonstar I got a fistfully of dark magic in my nuts when I tried it. Now on bowser and DK its a different story but then again they can **** you offstage also.