Link+ [Updated 10-8 - Farewell F-Air, we hardly knew ye]

[shanus]

We can't edit throws right now. So yeah, don't try that.

Have you guys made up your minds yet at all? I get PMs about all different things that are conflicting and really see no convergence yet.

Here is a good way to try and isolate it. Think of preferably 2 changes (no more than 3, for now) which you think are his BIGGEST PROBLEM besides his recovery. We don't want to turn him into a toon link with his upB. But please try and isolate 2-3 main problems and a hitbox change or two or speed ups. If he is as bad as you all claim, it shouldn't be hard to find the game-changer.

 

[Shadic]

Yeah, I wasn't sure if throws were changeable yet, oh well.

The problem with Link (As I'm sure you've noticed, Shanus) is that we all play him vastly differently. He's probably the most flexible character in the game, but the problem is that he currently does none of those things very well. And even if he did them all in a mostly mediocre manner (Melee,) he's still stuck exactly in middle-tier.

Complaints we have now...

1. Recovery
2. Weak Projectiles
3. Lack of strong kill moves
4. Lack of setup into kill moves
5. Fair
6. Dash Attack

Am I missing anything? Either way, we need to coordinate a method to solving at least some of these.

 

[Swordplay]

Shanus I am sorry but I feel like I have to talk about this stuff for everybody to see and read it. It's hard to find time to talk to people outside of SWF through AIM, MSN, Skype, and all that other stuff. If you want me to take it down just ask and I will.

Okay, Matt4300 and I isolated some options that could actually help him.

Also before I start, Just know we are not here to fix all his problems, all characters deserve some inherent weaknesses. I also don't think we should just list complaints but rather if we are going to talk about fixing him, discuss fixes that would help him.

Well I've said before I think he needs a zair tweak or Dash attack tweak.

Setups and killing

If Dash attack had higher BKB and less KBG and a little more speed at the end it would fit the criteria we are looking for. (IE people go up instead of hitting you back allowing for follow ups)

WARNING: The major concern I have with modifying speed on Dash attack is how it affects DAC and BOMBSLIDING

My other idea was to have the sweetspot of the zair pop u up a little bit. That way at low % its not a tech situation and you can follow up. At high %'s it COMBO'S INTO FAIR!!!!!!!!! (Right now it is close but just out of range. (mere pixles away)
It would make it much more of a GO 2 move because it would be very safe, good length, and a better combo starter.
I thought this might be a good idea. I'll take the hit if it doesn't work out. If this works though, it would be FREAKING SWEET

We talked about spin attack speed up ( coming out on frame 9 instead of 11 ) for safer OOS and jab cancel options

Projectiles

There was also the arrow speed up charge buff. Matt4300 and I tested it extensively and it helped him a lot. I'd like to have more Links test it so we can pinpoint the perfect speed and agree upon it.

BKB bombs would be great but we have to wait because there is no code.

Hot TOPIC

Last but not least, we need to decide what to do with the fair. Make them the same or combo into each other. Both have a lot of pro's and cons.

Note to SHADIC: Link does have strong moves, 2nd slash fair and dair. But right now no way to go into them. We should try to focus on helping link get into fair at least. For an example, read my zair suggestion

Pick 2 or 3 of those you think would be helpful to Link and worth discussion/testing. ( I already know my 3 )

 

[Shadic]

When I said "Lack of strong kill moves," I meant for their difficulty to pull off. One of his quickest moves strong moves, the utilt, kills at 110, 140, and 163 for light, mid, and heavy characters, respectively.

 

[shanus]

Sped up dash attacks enhance DACUS, not weaken them. Please see olimar as an example. The DACUS is only effects if the speedup is at the start, as well.

 

[Kief]

Idk if SP's comment was just to shanus or to anyone but im going to reply anyway

I think the most pressing need is the dash attack. Right now, connecting with it could be as punishable as wiffing a dsmash, which is dumb. -_- If it were to hit them in a better direction, or have more hitstun/speed, or something, that would be great. Maybe this could be the good setup into a kill move.

To me it SOUNDS like the linked together fair would be better. However, I haven't personally tested the two options. I just like the idea of both hits connecting, doing more damage, and having the knockback of the second hit. Plus SP's idea of FFing the first hit and possibly leading to a combo sounds interesting.

The zair, spin attack, and arrow things sound cool, but some kind of dash attack tweak IMO is what we need the most, along with maybe that fair tweak. Outside of those two, I think the faster spin attack would be the next best one.

I find myself getting gimped MORE in brawl+ than vbrawl due to increased hitstun and the non auto snap ledges, but I can't ask for TL's recovery. I guess that'll just have to still be link's glaring weakness.

 

[Shadic]

Somebody (I think Falco400) was talking about making it so Link could still use his Clawshot AFTER his UpB, which would be quite awesome for his recovery, frankly. But unless you could do it in the middle of his UpB, I don't think it would help much in gimp resistance.

 

[Kief]

You know I actually wondered if that could be possible. That would be awesome if we could do that. Even if we couldn't do it in the middle, it would still help a lot.

 

[Shadic]

Yeah, it is. I think we'd get some resistance to getting more buffs if we requested for that, though. Which is sad, because even with that, Link would just be a mediocre character with a mediocre recovery.

..Although maybe, we could ask that instead of the current UpB recovery "Buff," we could just have the ability to clawshot in the middle of it? It'd be cool and unique, and could provide some minor gimp resistance, with the tradeoff that ledgehogging would work better against him.

So it'd be a tradeoff, more than anything.


Also, thread topic change.

 

[leafgreen386]

Well, since you all are talking about buffs here, anyway, give this nair change a try:

hitbox 1
020A6416 00169033
0A643200 00230000
FFFFFFFF

hitbox 2
0206640F 00169033
06642B00 00230000
FFFFFFFF

Changes the base of the first hit from 22 to 50 and the base of the second hit from 15 to 43, and changes both angles from 20 to 35. When you add these to the hitbox mod, you'll have to change the byte count from C94 to CBC.

Also, the next nightly build will have a new physics set for you to try, but if you want a preview, replace link's values in the jump/grav code with this:

0269A490

Which gives him: 1.05 sh/1.125 fj+dj/1.15 ff/1.0 Dgrav/1.125 Fgrav
(old physics were 1.0 sh/1.025 fj+dj/1.2 ff/1.15 dgrav/1.0 fgrav)

Should give him a bigger fj and dj while roughly preserving his old sh height, make his jumps faster (well fj won't be faster since he'll be rising higher, but sh will be), and also make him slightly harder to combo.

 

[Kief]

Hmm. Idk how to do that. >_>

I might just wait for the next nightly to test that out. When will it be released?

 

[leafgreen386]

Probably in the next day or so. If you don't know how to edit the hitbox mod data code, just replace two hitbox changes from another character with it and it'll work fine. Just don't then test against the character you removed the changes from (don't touch any of the ones that begin with FF since those are global changes).

As for the physics change, you just replace the half of a line that begins with 02 in the jump/grav values code with the half of a line I provided.

edit: I had the old fj+dj value labeled wrong before. It was actually 1.025, not 1.1. Big difference. lol

 

[shanus]

Guys try and finalize what changes you want. We want to try and get an official (read: not nightly build) up and public fairly soon.

 

[V-K]

Why can´t Link chaingrab?
What about giving him this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-EOjrK2wRg

 

[Shadic]

I like the new physics settings, quite a bit. And did you guys speed up the Fair? I swear it's quicker.

 

[The Cape]

This is what I personally would like to see:

- Faster upB (Comes out faster)
- More KB on all hits of aerial upB (so only one connects)
- Jab and second jab link faster allowing for better jab cancels
- Bombs have set KB or really low KBG to allow for more combos off them
- Fair hits are reversed (first hits hard, second hits weak)

 

[Sterowent]

- Fair hits are reversed (first hits hard, second hits weak)

is this to make the first hit the GTFO/Killing and the second a SH --> combo move?
Maybe the second hit midair, as unlikely as it would be, were to hit. would that be useful for combos though?
or possibly a well-timed gimp device?

i like this to an extent, but i'm no link main.

 

[The Cape]

The second hit would have decent juggle ability as Link could do it and land on the ground with nearly no lag. The first is a good combo finisher and GTFO move.

 

[Shadic]

I think to juggle with it, it would need a bit more base KB.

 

[GameSystem]

How about less lag when he catches his boomerang?

 

[Swordplay]

The new physics settings are a huge improvement I just tested them.

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!

My findings after an initial test

Improving his jump speed though and getting him a little higher is REALLY helping him IMO. Can finally reach high enough fast enough to apply some real follow up pressure and possible land a final hit.

SH is kind of funky. It was really weird at first but I adjusted. I don't have any major complaints with it because is similar enough to the old SH. (though the old SH was perfict. I wish I could perfectly replicate that in these new grav settings)

Now, the one thing I think is that he is just a little light in getting down. I would suggest making the Dgrav 1.05 and everything else should remain consistent.
It may not work but it is something I would like to try

 

[The Cape]

when you need to catch the boomerang, just do a move or sheild. Problem solved.

 

[Swordplay]

when you need to catch the boomerang, just do a move or sheild. Problem solved.

The best way to avoid catching the boomerang is

AIR DODGE

then

ZAIR OUT OF AIRDODGE


its turns a poor situation into a defensive spacing option that just ***** people if they try to punish your catching animation.


Or you could NOT catch it and let it fly past.





If the boomerang hits your opponent and knocks them down, catching the boomerang is a non issue, you can still punish easily and they can't do ****.

 

[Shadic]

So, I like Cape's idea for the Fair. I know some people preferred both hits for more damage, but this seems to be the best of both worlds. Should we at least ask for the change to try in a nightly?

 

[Swordplay]

I don't like that fair idea but I'm willing to give it a test run before shutting it down.



Some more new things about the physics


Certain old tricks have different timings, especially some bomb tricks, especially bomb tricks on or near the ledge.

DJ Fair off the ledge works REALLY well not.

Arrow canceling is terrible now, DON'T USE IT. There is to much timing to be punished when going for the arrow cancel now. Its not even worth it anymore.

Link is a little bit more mobile and can follow up pressure wise slightly better.


O one more thing, you will NEED to fast fall EVERYTHING because Link doesn't get the ground fast enough on his own!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Yea....I think these are really good except dgrav should be at 1.05
I'll do some in depth comparisons testing later

 

[kupo15]

What say you linkys about an increased up b speed? This will also not make your recovery as easy to gimp I'm pretty sure

 

[The Cape]

What about less winddown on Link dash attack to allow it to combo a bit better?

 

[Kief]

What say you linkys about an increased up b speed? This will also not make your recovery as easy to gimp I'm pretty sure

yes

What about less winddown on Link dash attack to allow it to combo a bit better?

YES

Idk what i think about the physics and fair things though. I guess i'll just need to learn more about them......

 

[leafgreen386]

You would already fall faster than you used to if you set the dgrav to 1.025. Since dgrav and fgrav are multiplicative to give your true dgrav, you would have around 1.1153 dgrav, whereas before you had 1.1150, so it's very close.

So just change the dgrav from 4 to 5 and you should be set.

 

[Shadic]

I like the idea of a faster rising UpB. Toon Link gets a lot more vertical distance but is slower, and Link's can't recover quite as well but is a lot faster. That should balance them out slightly.

 

[Kief]

If it's ok i'd like a link main to convince me this physics change is good via IRC chat and demonstration on wifi.

Also is utilt>utilt a true combo at 0 percent on say, luigi? cus i can't pull it off, he always gets his nair in.

 

[Shadic]

I swear Luigi recovers from hitstun faster than anybody else. It may just be his absurdly fast aerials, but I have the same problem as you, with his **** Nair.

And KIEF - Where do you live? I'm in Oregon, and would be willing to play if the lag wasn't bad.

 

[Kief]

i live in illinois, and lagged with SP terribad last night who is currently in indiana. location doesnt really matter...

 

[Shadic]

Sometimes. I've usually gotten the best experience with nearby people, however.

I'll see when I can get online, although it may not be tonight. I've got a Biology test late tonight.

 

[Swordplay]

thanks leaf I did not know that information I'll have to download ocarina again to retweak stuff unfortunately

What I might try is a dgrav value of 1.005 or 1.01


The problem with Link before was he wasn't getting off the ground fast enough to follow up. The new physics changes fixed that. Now a less prevelant problem of not being able to get back down without FF to follow up has occured. Link just needs a tad more D-grav, I can't tell how much though. I need to test. Probably 1/6 or 1/5 of the way towards his original fall speed.



It either has to be that or a happy medium of his old and new physics. His new physics fixed A LOT of problems he had but it also created a few minor ones.


=================================================================


I don't think the problem with the dash attack is end speed. its just at low % people don't go anywhere. They bassically get hit, stay on the ground and punish Link in the end lag.

I strongly believe the way to fix the dash attack if it needs a fix at all is higher BKB and lower KBG

I mean, it could use a slight end speed increase but I don't believe that alone will fix the problem

====================================================================

Anyway, the new physics have forced me to knock down my buffer a tad. just to let you links all know you might want to try the same and see how it goes.

 

[leafgreen386]

thanks leaf I did not know that information I'll have to download ocarina again to retweak stuff unfortunately

What I might try is a dgrav value of 1.005 or 1.01


The problem with Link before was he wasn't getting off the ground fast enough to follow up. The new physics changes fixed that. Now a less prevelant problem of not being able to get back down without FF to follow up has occured. Link just needs a tad more D-grav, I can't tell how much though. I need to test. Probably 1/6 or 1/5 of the way towards his original fall speed.



It either has to be that or a happy medium of his old and new physics. His new physics fixed A LOT of problems he had but it also created a few minor ones.

Well, the current physics code only lets us use up to 15 values for the code, the ones we're using being:

0: 0.80
1: 0.85
2: 0.90
3: 0.95
4: 1.00
5: 1.025
6: 1.05
7: 1.075
8: 1.10
9: 1.125
A: 1.15
B: 1.175
C: 1.20
E: 1.25
F: 1.30

Lists the value that shows up in the data and the given value it corresponds to with this code. So when tweaking the link physics, keep these possible values in mind.

Also, link will be receiving a truckload of buffs in the next set. Here's a quick peak at them for you (copied and pasted directly from cape's post in the broom; the list is only the hitbox changes and so does not include the upB speedup 1.2x and dash attack winddown reduction):

Fair
hitbox 1 (100 growth, 20 base from 5 base and 100 growth, 12 damage from 9)
hitbox 2 (50 growth, 20 base, 90 degree angle and 6 damage from 12 damage, 20 base, and 110 growth)

Bair (hb1 and 2: 35 base, 0 growth, 72 degree angle from 0 base and 100 growth)
hitbox 3 (60 growth, 20 base from 70 and 70)

Uair (Strong hit) (25 base from 18)

Zair hb2(80 degree angle from 45)

Dashattack (40 base from 30, 60 growth from 80 growth on all hits)
hitbox 2 (mid) (100 angle from 80)
hitbox 3 (run through) (90 angle from 70)
hitbox 4 (run through) (80 angle from 60)

U smash:
HB 1 and 2:
4 damage, 0 growth, 30 base, and 90 degree angle from 100 growth and 0 base

HB 3 and 4:
3 damage, 0 growth, 30 base, and 90 degree angle from 100 growth and 0 base

HB 5-8:
All hitboxes: 75 base and 40 growth from 80 growth and 70 base

D smash:
HB1:
40 base, 16 damage from 26 base and 14 damage (kept 90 growth the same)

HB 2-5:
10 or 11 damage, 30 base, 60 growth from 16 damage, 26 base and 90 growth, 100 degree angle

 

[Shadic]

Hrm. I'm not sure exactly how some of these are going to work, but some of them (Like the Fair and the Zair changes) sound really nice. I can't wait to try them out.

 

[Kief]

cool beans! i should probably touch up my other chars in the meantime with all these changes coming soon. then test out the new link, which i assume will be in the next nightly? which will be out sometime this week?

 

[Shadic]

I'm hoping it's out tonight or something.

Also, omfg KIEF - We totally just had our 500th posts right next to eachother. >_>

 

[Kief]

lmao. we should make a doubles team or something. >_>