Link+ [Updated 10-8 - Farewell F-Air, we hardly knew ye]

[luvs2pluck]

umm link can jab cancel into a dtilt at higher percentages, like 80 and above on most characters. This easily sets up into a dair (sounds silly but it works) if in range, and if they fly too high for a dair then uair will combo and kill off the top.

If you land right after the first hit of bair, it will combo in to upB at higher percentages.

Zair to cc upB is too good for kills.

I really dont think he has too many problems with killing, especially if you compare him to a character like peach.

Also, dtilt spike is practically useless against good players. The edgegrab range is still so long that they can completley avoid the sword by properly spacing theyre recovery, and even hit you with their upB for trying it (ganon). And characters like snake and rob should always be recovering high to avoid it.

I think the best thing for an edgeguard is just a simple slowfalled dair off the stage, sure it hits them vertically at an angle, but its usually a guaranteed hit for massive damage or a kill off the top.

Also links nair with momentum is awesome now.

 

[Rouenne]

So far Link feels great now, but I do agree with the Dtilt spike. But not for the short range, rather the speed. Overall I still think Link's attack speed is slow...very slow. His USpecial is stronger but still predictable and avoidable as well as his smashes. I think increasing his attack speed (and running speed) would be the ice in the cake.

 

[padawanman3000]

Whoa where can i find the codes for brawl plus (specifically the fierce deity costume)?

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

I'm probably gonna start using Link now (I'm trying to pick up MANY characters), but since I have never actively used him in any Smash game yet I'm gonna suck for a while.

I have to say though, Link is really not that bad at all. I actually think he's almost set, the ONLY thing I would really want is set KB/low KB bombs and better pressuring arrows.

 

[Shadic]

Whoa where can i find the codes for brawl plus (specifically the fierce deity costume)?

The Plussery Set has the texture code included. And this pack of textures includes Fierce Deity Link.

 

[Popertop]

seriously, quit talking about how you can make the character better, but how you, as players, can do better with him.

 

[Swordplay]

So far Link feels great now, but I do agree with the Dtilt spike. But not for the short range, rather the speed. Overall I still think Link's attack speed is slow...very slow. His USpecial is stronger but still predictable and avoidable as well as his smashes. I think increasing his attack speed (and running speed) would be the ice in the cake.

All true but Link is unique in he deals significant damage per attack. Some of his attack deal 12% and are combo moves at low%. Then Link is also one of the most if not the most disjointed character in the game. His moves are suppose to be slow so that people can get inside and cause him trouble.

But that has been nerfed with things like upb being buffed. It's an incredible GTFO move now.

As for the d-tilt. It is not to slow. Rather it is just right or slightly to fast. It makes some matchups amazingly easy. And being one of his only set up moves at high %, its suppose to be slow. It is so good off and on stage now if you get it off that it should be his shortest move. (it is) and it should be his slowest.

I'm probably gonna start using Link now (I'm trying to pick up MANY characters), but since I have never actively used him in any Smash game yet I'm gonna suck for a while.

I have to say though, Link is really not that bad at all. I actually think he's almost set, the ONLY thing I would really want is set KB/low KB bombs and better pressuring arrows.

arrows have always been useless, thats just the way they are. They served no purpose in melee but at least in VB and B+ they are better.


As for the bombs. Link cannot jump high if you haven't noticed.

And the D-tilt/upb/dair/ and other edgaurd techinques force opponents to recovery from above because Link can't get them. Having somewhat powerful bombs to throw up when opponent is at high% can kill or force situations where the opponent takes a strange recovery angle from above for link to take advantage off.

And he can still combo with them at low%.




K Link players. We have sat on our ***** long enough. Lets DO SOMETHING


What do you guys want to do first? go over matchups or post some combo's and stuff?

 

[Shadic]

Anything works for me. I'm mostly serving as a scribe here, as I'm not the greatest player.

 

[Popertop]

how about we set up some bread and butter combos and go from there?

 

[MK26]

MK has drawbacks now.

yeah...he doesnt have a developed metagame and pro players that put him miles ahead of the competition...
yet

 

[Swordplay]

These are combo's I pull off against my friend. His DI sucks so you should test them yourself.




Lesson: 1 Basic: ALL %'s

Jab>Jab>Dsmash (D-smash is quick and low so it works on almost everyone, Depending on character you may be able to spin attack/utilt/grab/usmash)

Lesson 2: Low%

Light-Medium-Heavies: D-throw>u smashes/U tilts>uairs
The Heaviest: U-throw>U-Tilts/Usmash>u-air

Lesson: 3: mid%

Note: Must sweetspot the zair (the tip) or it probably a tech situation
Non-sweet spot zairs work at higher %

Zair>Dash attack>follow ups (follow ups can include u-tilts often, usmash or an air move depending on weight and %)
Zair>DAC will work also

Lesson: 4 High%

D-throw>u-air (possibly dair but usually too high)

Lesson 5: Stringing them together. Note: character specific and not necessarily a true combo

d-throw>bair>zair>dash attack>u-tilt(1 or 2)>usmash/uair>Fast fall/double jump>uair


Lesson 6: Move analysis

Combo Starters

Zair (can force tech situation depending on % and sweet spot. See "If opponent fails tech")
Jab
U tilt
D-tilt
D/U-throw
Boomerang
Bombs
Nair


Used In Combos

Bair
Fair
Nair
U-tilt
U-smash
Bombs
U-air (limited: see Combo finishers)


Combo Finishers

D-smash
Fair (2nd slash only. Makes it very hard to use as a finisher anything above low%)
Spin attack
U-air (can set up for itself)
D-air
Boomerang
Bombs
Arrows
F-Fmash
Zair (not your best option)


Things to use if opponent fails tech

Jab (lock may be gone but still forces get up animation)
Arrows ((lock may be gone but still forces get up animation)
F-smash
D-smash
D-tilt


Ranged game play Defensive/OOS

Spin attack (OOS) (Do not abuse)

zair (Ranged/Defense)
jab (Ranged/Defense)
Projectiles (Ranged/Defense)


Mindgames/little purpose

B-throw/f-throw
F-tilt



Note: F-tilt use to be important mindgamez in VB when you could pivot boost and it still is but with Dash Dancing now it has lost lots of its purpose.

Best used if Dash Dance>Crouch cancel>f-tilt or just use the pivot boost

 

[Popertop]

swordplay I rly wanna play you lol.

COME TO TEXAS
lol

 

[Swordplay]

swordplay I Rly Wanna Play You Lol.

Come To Texas
Lol

Tooooo Far !!!!!!!!!!

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

Bomb from above to Dair works at certain percents if you time and position it right for a kill. Hard to do though since most people aren't stupid enough to get hit by it.

 

[Ishiey]

No mention of weak nair? Weak nair is amazing IMO, one of link's best combo starters (jab and dsmash, at least). I'm not sure if it can combo into dtilt, but that would just be ridiculous because of dtilt > dair.

After a zair, if my opponent fails to tech, I usually ftilt (just throwing out possible applications, there are probably better options though).

 

[matt4300]

Heres some combos I like using ... at low to mid percents
Bomb> run ,SH/full hop>throw bomb down in front or ontop of char depending on SH or FH> FFnair depending on the SH or FH it will be either sour or sweet> Jab Jab ...... dsmash/spinattack/utilt> and any of the combos SP mentioned... you can also drop the bomb and faint with a falling nair to regrab the bomb if they have there shield up or if you think they will so you dont blow yourself up.

Sp mentioned most of the combos i regularly use though. Im just adding that a bomb and falling nair can be great starters for some jab cancel shenaingans, And starting with bomb>nair can make for good shield pressure and higher percents for some of links more traditional combos.

AH and my fave lulz combo at low perfcents Dtilt, running dair, second hit of dair XD , and a fast falled uair or nair , if your low to the ground a utilt ect ect... it only works on a few chars and almost never happens but its so awsome when it works. Its like your floating through the air with them and costantly stabing lol.

 

[Swordplay]

F-tilt is still good out of craq walk and failed tech situations. Thats bassically its only purpose now (O and to go through platforms on levels like battlefield)

Nair is REALLY good. But its overshadowed by zair most of the time. zair is too good in brawl because it auto cancels. It's almost changed Links air game in the transition from melee to brawl.

The combo potential for Nair is much higher than zair and at high levels of play I would expect more nair. However Links B+ metagame is still developing and zair is much safer so people are sticking with that


Nair is good if your really high up and want to fast fall it. It has good priority and can combo. I guess I'll add it to the list. I just don't use it as much as zair

and if your opponent fails a tech, you might as well fsmash because no more stale moves but that is my opinion.





Ya matt is right. there are so many combos you can do with bombs at low %that I didn't even mention

SH Bomb>Dash attack>u-tilt follow ups or Jab Jab>Dsmash
You got SH Bomb>Fair/nair (If the bomb hits its a combo. If he shield the bomb you catch it with fair and apply lots of shield pressure)
SH Bomb>DAC

So many things you can do with bombs at low%!!!!!!!!

Edit: Jiang was talking much about bombs sucking because there almost useless at high %.
I'm gonna look into a base bomb KB no growth metagame in a bit



Shadic I hope your reading all of this

 

[Rinku リンク]

Link has the Best DI in the game !!! He can live pretty long if you play him right.

 

[GHNeko]

Link has the Best DI in the game !!! He can live pretty long if you play him right.

....lolwut. Um...

Huh?

 

[Shadic]

Shadic I hope your reading all of this

Hi! I'm busy with class until a bit later today, and I have a paper to write, but my week relaxes soon, so expect an update.

 

[Swordplay]

Link has the Best DI in the game !!! He can live pretty long if you play him right.

DI got nerfed with hitstun.

What keeps link from getting gimped is projectiles but some characters can outprioritize them and gimp him anyway.


Link is a glass cannon character.

Dies early from gimps, but kills early.



Link basically comes down to this. If you don't get gimped, YOU WIN because Link is heavy and will last a while

If you do get gimped YOU LOOSE. That's Link in a nutshell

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

I have to strongly strongly disagree with your glass cannon reference.

Really at this point I wouldn't call ANYBODY in Brawl+ a glass cannon, and as far as getting remotely close to that term, Link is far from it.

Glass cannons are like Alakazam and Weavile in Pokemon. As far as fighters, it's usually a character that takes massive damage, yet combos the hell out of others. First thing that comes to mind is Ogihci from Bleach DS 2nd (a treasure-developed game so you know it's good), he is a clone, yet takes 1.5x damage from attacks, is faster, and combos to no end due to the added speed and slight attack changes that allow him to link moves his "original" can't.

 

[Shadic]

Meanwhile, Link is all about his projectiles and staying on top of his opponent. Urgh, I miss the Smash64 boomerang.

 

[Shadic]

Also - Updated. (Oh Link lords, forgive the double post)

 

[Plum]

Meanwhile, Link is all about his projectiles and staying on top of his opponent. Urgh, I miss the Smash64 boomerang.

Every time I throw a boomerang and a tornado hits my opponent doing no damage or any effect whatsoever I weep for the boomerang of the past.

At the same time, every time a Toon Link fires an arrow I weep for what Link could have had.

I had a lot of time with Link today and my only issue was killing.
Racking up damage was so easy with 3 projectiles, Zair, and early combos.
I also played a lot of Samus, and I love Link because he could handle himself so much easier at close range.

But killing became a big pain if I couldn't gimp. Dtilt is a great setup but hard to land, and everything else is predictable enough where I couldn't use it outside of punishing a mistake.

His gimp game is amazing though. Yeah, you can just space it correctly and avoid it but that is how all onstage gimps work.
It also gives him another huge advantage with gimping. In theory he should be able to gimp no matter what now against most characters (exceptions being those who have the ability to recover high up). If you don't space your recovery to snap to the ledge then you will be hit with Dtilt or Up B. If you do space your recovery to sweetspot the ledge then it makes edgehogging easy.

Any character who can recover from very high up can avoid this, but a majority of the cast doesn't have that option.

 

[Swordplay]

Every time I throw a boomerang and a tornado hits my opponent doing no damage or any effect whatsoever I weep for the boomerang of the past.

At the same time, every time a Toon Link fires an arrow I weep for what Link could have had.

I had a lot of time with Link today and my only issue was killing.
Racking up damage was so easy with 3 projectiles, Zair, and early combos.
I also played a lot of Samus, and I love Link because he could handle himself so much easier at close range.

But killing became a big pain if I couldn't gimp. Dtilt is a great setup but hard to land, and everything else is predictable enough where I couldn't use it outside of punishing a mistake.

His gimp game is amazing though. Yeah, you can just space it correctly and avoid it but that is how all onstage gimps work.
It also gives him another huge advantage with gimping. In theory he should be able to gimp no matter what now against most characters (exceptions being those who have the ability to recover high up). If you don't space your recovery to snap to the ledge then you will be hit with Dtilt or Up B. If you do space your recovery to sweetspot the ledge then it makes edgehogging easy.

Any character who can recover from very high up can avoid this, but a majority of the cast doesn't have that option.

Killing is a problem not because of the lack of kill moves but lack of setup.....

When I suggested the d-tilt spike I had 2 things in mind.


1. Provide a kill setup onstage.

D-tilt did just that but it was still hard to land. He now has a kill setup but it is not reliable.


2. Gimp game.

In this sense it made Link all about gimping. Link is now a character where you try to rack up damage and maybe throw a combo out to get opponent offstage for a gimp setup.



Personally I would trade in D-tilt for a more reliable setup move, perhaps a combination of Base Bomb KB and less D-throw but We really don't have those codes. I think it would do a lot for link and improve him in SO many ways. The D-tilt was certainly good but its just unreliable and may never see any metagame use onstage because its slow and short. And it really isn't needed offstage anymore because he has up-b semi spike.


However, this is what we have now and we have to stick with it.

 

[matt4300]

I like to use Dtilt from a falling Nair to setup for JC dsmash or an fsmash at low to mid percnets but the nair fubb hit sends them to far at high %. It works. I really wouldnt want to "trade" anything... link needs all the help he can get.
Cape was telling me that damage might directly affect throws and that takeing 1 percent from his dthow should make it pop people up less for combos at high percnets and possibley Dthow>Up-B, but the bomb thing would probley help him out alot more since you would have to Grab first to use the kill setup and missing with links grab means death around the time there at high enough percents to kill.

 

[Swordplay]

I like to use Dtilt from a falling Nair to setup for JC dsmash or an fsmash at low to mid percnets but the nair fubb hit sends them to far at high %. It works. I really wouldnt want to "trade" anything... link needs all the help he can get.
Cape was telling me that damage might directly affect throws and that takeing 1 percent from his dthow should make it pop people up less for combos at high percnets and possibley Dthow>Up-B, but the bomb thing would probley help him out alot more since you would have to Grab first to use the kill setup and missing with links grab means death around the time there at high enough percents to kill.

D-throw>up-b is not something I'm looking for. That is a significant decrease.

I want to decrease it just enough so you can consistantly D-throw>dair.



Right now at high %'s you can dthrow>uair but that doesn't kill for a while.

and the % is too low to kill at where dthrow>dair connects.


decreasing the KB for d-throw to set up for dair more constantly would seriously be freaking amazing.




Right now what you should be looking at with throws is d-throw uair. It's the only thing that works.

Links throw game is bad though. U-throw is only good against the 3 heaviest characters and really can't kill well anymore.

F-throw and B-throw really have extremly limited to no use. Best thing you can do is a DAC follow up which is hardly consistent. The angles are terrible.


I-fact. Grabbing is still pretty risky. Standing grabs have been improved but because Links throws in general blow it's not worth it have the time.

 

[matt4300]

Yeh im of the same opinion .. the risk reward is all kindsa skewd for some of links moves grabing being near the top of the list. Its odd that his throws do such little percnets to ... all doing 7. I just came off a convo with cape about links% ... so I'm in a depressed mood with link. lol Good things are coming though.

 

[Shadic]

In-fact. Grabbing is still pretty risky. Standing grabs have been improved but because Links throws in general blow it's not worth it have the time.

Not to mention, trying to grab is basically futile against some characters, such as Peach.

 

[Swordplay]

We'll lets talk about it. Shield grabs are certainly important to the OOS game. But for us its pretty risky.

Grabbing with Link does suck. Do you use it at all? I certainly do not use pivot/dash grabs. Lag is stupid long and punishable.


What do you guys use for OOS options?


Personally I mix it up. Rarely I will shield grab but most of the time I find myself jabbing and possible canceling it into a retreating zair.

I also may go right into a retreating zair or if I feel confident, Dsmash/spin attack.

My favorite is retreating AD>ZAIR IT'S SO SAFE AND SO ****. ZAIR IS SO GOOD



If I have a bomb, You can usually find me jump cancel throwing it in a retreat motion. or AD>ZAIR. (I can't bomb slide under pressure)

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

Hey guys I really want to try Link in Brawl+ and see what improvements have been made. I heard that his upB was improved, is his pitiful second jump improved as well?


Edit: Also does he get his Melee spin attack and nair? that would be grand.

 

[Shadic]

I've been meaning to put up his changelog. I'll do that soon.

His UpB on the ground got an angle change and a knockback increase. It's still nowhere near the Melee one, though.

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

Needs more upB spikes

 

[Shadic]

Yeah, I've tried asking around to figure out why it's not a real semispike as compared to the 10 degrees or whatever it's currently at, but I've not gotten an answer.

 

[Swordplay]

UP B is fine.

Initial strength KB makes increases the risk/reward of the move and allows it to be a GTFO move while semi-spike frames hitbox's later on allow it to be a dangerous near the edge tool.


Seriously, just be happy its improved!



My hypothesis

O and the reason why its not a "real" semi-spike. It isn't at first but after the first few initial frames of hit the added gravity comes into play and makes it a semi spike.

Thats the way it was coded because I think the BR realized that if it wasn't coded this way players would fly into the ground.


But it doesn't have enough KB for the 2nd , 3rd and 4th frames to carry people very far at low% so people just kind of flop on the ground. The semi spike frames were meant to be an edge tool not middle of the stage like melee.

If you want middle of the stage stuff use the high KB 1st hitbox.

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

I just thought it needed a faster startup similar to Melee, because it takes forever to start up you can't even use it OoS.

I know it won't be done but a renewing hitbox would be awesome. I just find it annoying that it can be shielded once and then he's still swinging the sword and they can just walk up and hit you.

 

[matt4300]

I just thought it needed a faster startup similar to Melee, because it takes forever to start up you can't even use it OoS.

I know it won't be done but a renewing hitbox would be awesome. I just find it annoying that it can be shielded once and then he's still swinging the sword and they can just walk up and hit you.

It really is a bad move... 12 damage?!??! yeh... pikas thunder does 17 zss FB does 18 ... its stupid... that and it has SO much lag for a move that doesnt kill until 120 right now.
melee spin attack was/did/had

More range
less lag on startup
less lag on ending
better semi spike
more ko potential
and did 15 %

was melee spin attack broken? NO. not even close. brawl spin attack is a terrible move.
the risk reward is just as dumb as some of links other moves... Arrow,grab,run attack, ftilt,dtilt,air up-b

EDIT: ok... mabye we should stop complaining (mostly me) and start talking about matchups. If link really needs help we will find out through tourneys.

ok so ill start

Mario:

Advantages:
RANGE! mario pretty much has to be in the air to attack link. Links sword severly out spaces just about everything mario has. Bair can be hard to deal with though

Kill power- link has more powerful kill moves than mario and mario isnet very heavy. JC up-B/dsmash gets the job done.

Nair- nair out prioritizes a good bit of marios air game (sans bair) its a good idead to spam the hell out of this move against mario.

Disadvantages:
Cape- ****S LINK. weather it be projectiles,recovery,or general moves. Cape is really good against link.

FLUDD- again ****S LINK. very easy to kill link with this move. You better have a back up plan for recovery >_> (zair, holding a bomb)

Combos- Mario can combo the living **** out of link. Links fast fall speed and slightly large size makes it very easy to get him to high percents, But he has to get through you sword swings first.

Bair- walled bair is hard for link to deal with... and can carry link off stage. Your best bet is to sheild and try to punish with jabs, ftilt, utilt or retreating zair (dont spam ftilt)

Fire ballz- wow im sorry link mario just about has you out projectiled. These ****ers do more than links arrows and just as much as links rang + he can use them for approaches to start combos wich renders links sword usless, stoping your moves, gimping you. beware of the fire ballz

Comboing kill moves- Dtilt>fsmash if it doenst send you off screen it puts you out to far to recovery or sets up for easy FLUDD, Cape, Fire ball gimps. Dont forget mario has a weak meteor that can be comboed, and even if you meteor cancel your recovery isnet enough to save you.

Hard to grab: mario is almost always in the air... dont ever grab.

Summary:
Try and out space him you have a bigger sword than his XD USE IT. Dont ever go off stage even to attack mario... mario offstage- his up-b will stop your attacks (even dair) and he may even cape you off stage.(use galegaurding) link offstage- your dead (hookshot) Be defensive its your best bet to punish him, but dont spam projectiles. With a reflector and a better projectile than most of yours your will lose this battle (use bombs) .
One skrew up and your either offstage to get gimped or your comboed to 50 percent. Retreating zair is a good wa;y to keep him off you, but doenst work very well against mario because he can easily jump over it.
JAB CANCEL!!! and uhh DONT EVER GRAB!!! @o@ mario will be in the air and will punish you. OH and dtilt spike is near usless against him
Matchup- 65-35 in marios favor

sorry but links so easy to gimp and mario is one of the best gimpers in the game... its over link...

 

[Swordplay]

Matt I want to hold out on matchups for 1 second.



WE HAVE A CHANGE TO DISCUSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I saw in todays new version 4/29 that they modified links FAIR

It is not perfect yet but we should start discussing it.

This could be a huge change to Link and a much needed buff. Fair is kind of easy to set up but because it never combo'd into itself and the 1st slash sucked it was such a crappy move.

This buff gives Link a much needed way to Knock opponents far horizontally from the air. It helps him finish combos better AND produces a slightly better air game

(Something almost every character was able to do with at least 1 move)

WE NEED TO DISCUSS THIS AND HOW IT AFFECTS THE METAGAME



Here is the change I saw in the change list


-Link Fair hitbox 1 KBG changed to 15 from 100 and BKB to 15 from 5
-Link fair hitbox 2 BKB 30 from 20

Source: http://web.me.com/shane_mulligan/Brawl+_Nightly_Builds/Welcome.html



Things to try

F-throw>Fair ----------------------- ( A Possible use for F-throw?????? *GASP* )

Utilts>Fair (low %'s of course)

D-tilt>Fair ---------- (Possible finisher combo)

Dash attack>fair

Other things>Fair

Fair> Other things







( As opposed to some other buffs I think this one is actually in the right direction and can be worked into the metagame )

 

[V-K]

Reduced KB of his first Fair hit?
Sometimes I just jump and hit the opponent with the first Fair hit and that wouldn´t be very useful with reduced KB.
I´m not sure if that´s a good change, actually in Melee it was fine..