Link+ [Updated 10-8 - Farewell F-Air, we hardly knew ye]

[Kief]

I hear a lot of crap about brawl+ too though. Like how there are practically 5 mks, and the game is just as unbalanced at regular brawl.

And I don't care if he's not a great character. Like I said, I just wanted a recovery...the brawl+ people made a thread in the Link forums when it was being produced asking what changes we would like. I believe every single person in there said they wanted a recovery. And they apparently didn't listen. Sounds to me like brawl+ was made by a bunch of little sakurai spawns.

 

[Revven]

I hear a lot of crap about brawl+ too though. Like how there are practically 5 mks, and the game is just as unbalanced at regular brawl.

And I don't care if he's not a great character. Like I said, I just wanted a recovery...the brawl+ people made a thread in the Link forums when it was being produced asking what changes we would like. I believe every single person in there said they wanted a recovery. And they apparently didn't listen. Sounds to me like brawl+ was made by a bunch of little sakurai spawns.

Wow, you... I don't even know what to say.

That first bit is BLATANTLY untrue. The last bit, we gave him a HUGE recovery boost, it is WAY better than regular Brawl.

Either try Brawl+ or don't bother commenting.

 

[Kief]

That first bit is BLATANTLY untrue. The last bit, we gave him a HUGE recovery boost, it is WAY better than regular Brawl.

Ok then how is it better? I honestly want to try brawl+, but I want it to be a better experience than regular brawl. I don't think that would be the case when I hear people tell me that snake still has his 3 foot long invisible hit boxes on the sides of his tilts. I don't see how anybody could keep something like that in a game and call it better than brawl.

 

[Revven]

Ok then how is it better? I honestly want to try brawl+, but I want it to be a better experience than regular brawl. I don't think that would be the case when I hear people tell me that snake still has his 3 foot long invisible hit boxes on the sides of his tilts. I don't see how anybody could keep something like that in a game and call it better than brawl.

Dude. We cannot fix those hitboxes, at all, we WOULD if we COULD (we cannot at this time). There's a reason why it's still in beta.

It is better in that he gets TONS more height from his Up B. It is still sucky with how much direction you get horizontally (which we tried to fix, honest to God) but it didn't quite work like we wanted it to.

Link is still being worked on, AFAIK, Link mains have actually been discussing on what to do for Link on some chat room or something.

You'll just have to try it, KIEF, and stop being so judgmental. It is more fun in that you can actually DO **** TO SNAKE, you can COMBO people. How is that NOT fun? Seriously.

Try it.

 

[Shadic]

Just to settle things, I went and made a direct comparison between VBrawl Link and Brawl+ Link. Here's the results:

 

[OmegaXis]

Just to settle things, I went and made a direct comparison between VBrawl Link and Brawl+ Link. Here's the results:

Is it just me or does B+ link seem shorter.

 

[matt4300]

Is it just me or does B+ link seem shorter.

Its just you.... look at the size of the platform next to him.. the camera is just further back.

I hear a lot of crap about brawl+ too though. Like how there are practically 5 mks, and the game is just as unbalanced at regular brawl.

And I don't care if he's not a great character. Like I said, I just wanted a recovery...the brawl+ people made a thread in the Link forums when it was being produced asking what changes we would like. I believe every single person in there said they wanted a recovery. And they apparently didn't listen. Sounds to me like brawl+ was made by a bunch of little sakurai spawns.

Stop *****ing, it's better than vbrawl and he can semi gaurd the edge becuase of no auto ledge snap.

Link mains already have a bad name going into brawl+. We are fairly well known for whining about link and link related things and not being able to agree on **** because we all play link somewhat differntly seeing as how he is a very flexible char (i should be credited for a good bit of the whining) I was asked to get the link mains togther and fix link... (wich is what Falco400 was talking about) and I think we are makeing progress. Expect a better link soon. As I have already submited what we came up with to shanus.

and for god sakes PLAY THE GAME before you start makeing assumptions. I would like your feed back on the buffs when there out ... seeing as how your a link main.

 

[Kief]

Stop *****ing, it's better than vbrawl and he can semi gaurd the edge becuase of no auto ledge snap.

Link mains already have a bad name going into brawl+. We are fairly well known for whining about link and link related things and not being able to agree on **** because we all play link somewhat differntly seeing as how he is a very flexible char (i should be credited for a good bit of the whining) I was asked to get the link mains togther and fix link... (wich is what Falco400 was talking about) and I think we are makeing progress. Expect a better link soon. As I have already submited what we came up with to shanus.

and for god sakes PLAY THE GAME before you start makeing assumptions. I would like your feed back on the buffs when there out ... seeing as how your a link main.

the no auto ledge snap will enable pros to gimp us easier. 1) if we overshoot, that gives them another opportunity to hit us offstage again and gimp us. 2) if we dont want to overshoot, we may have to wait longer before using upB, in which the opponent could easily spike/gimp us.

i find it funny how you're speaking for the link mains when i've never before seen you on this site. you do know the real link mains are on aib right? anyway, i wouldnt call that a 'bad name'. most people dont think that about the link mains. they understand where they're coming from if they do talk about how bad their character is, and its just the noobs who excessively do that, anyway. as for link mains not being able to agree on things (or w/e you're talking about), go to our matchup thread.

if you had payed attention you would have noticed that i did 'stop *****ing* before you posted. i read what falco400 said, and understood where he was coming from. i saw shadic's pic and thought maybe link did get another inch to his recovery. although now when i look at it, link isnt in the same stage of his upB in the comparison pics, which doesnt make it that credible...

 

[Shadic]

Only on the single fullhop picture did I have bad timing. But I honestly took them right as Link began to fall. The momentum could be different on jumps as well.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I hear a lot of crap about brawl+ too though. Like how there are practically 5 mks, and the game is just as unbalanced at regular brawl.

And I don't care if he's not a great character. Like I said, I just wanted a recovery...the brawl+ people made a thread in the Link forums when it was being produced asking what changes we would like. I believe every single person in there said they wanted a recovery. And they apparently didn't listen. Sounds to me like brawl+ was made by a bunch of little sakurai spawns.

if you think that the best way to fix a character is to eliminate weaknesses, please don't play.

the whole point of a diverse character roster is that there is a wide range of characters to pick from, all with their own unique strength and weaknesses; if you don't understand that a character can be balanced w/o removing a shortcoming which has defined a character for the past 2 installments of the game, please don't play.

i honestly don't like listening to people complain about their inability to cope with their character's flaw when in fact the whole point is to work around it and exploit their strengths. and that is what brawl+ is doing. we are buffing strengths and retaining what keeps a character unique, even if it is a weakness.

 

[shanus]

Kief, right now your speaking with zero insight whatsoever on Brawl+. You are living off of assumptions alone. There is nothing more to say than that, its just that obvious. Try him out and then post your opinions and thats about it. Also, don't base it off of one nights play, because one nights play means nothing since most people aren't accustom to having to relearn to DI better again, etc.

 

[Shadic]

i honestly don't like listening to people complain about their inability to cope with their character's flaw when in fact the whole point is to work around it and exploit their strengths. and that is what brawl+ is doing. we are buffing strengths and retaining what keeps a character unique, even if it is a weakness.

I know what you're saying, but you guys can't claim to have "Fixed" Link's recovery when it only goes as high as it did in Brawl, again.

Not to mention higher gravity means that he's not going to be recovering from the same distances that he used to.

I'm not complaining here, just stating facts. None (Well, save for one) of my ideal changes for Link have to do with his recovery. The one I'd like would be Melee-esque hookshot, but I'm not exactly confident in that one.

I've already discussed my ideas with Falco400, Shanus, and zxeon, as well.

 

[Kief]

lol don't everyone flame me at once.

if you think that the best way to fix a character is to eliminate weaknesses, please don't play.

the whole point of a diverse character roster is that there is a wide range of characters to pick from, all with their own unique strength and weaknesses; if you don't understand that a character can be balanced w/o removing a shortcoming which has defined a character for the past 2 installments of the game, please don't play.

i honestly don't like listening to people complain about their inability to cope with their character's flaw when in fact the whole point is to work around it and exploit their strengths. and that is what brawl+ is doing. we are buffing strengths and retaining what keeps a character unique, even if it is a weakness.

you suck at reading. in my post that you quoted, i said that i dont care that link isn't a great character. i just wanted his recovery buffed. a lot of characters got buffs, eliminating or at least reducing a weakness of theirs. link obviously has a bunch of weaknesses. he's bottom tier for a reason. i think it's perfectly reasonable that i would like him to have a little bit better recovery. if you're calling me stupid for that then please say that to every other link main. and i don't care that his crappy recovery defined him in the past 2 games. it was stupid then, too.

i've played as link my whole life, so obviously i have coped with his flaws. funny how you said that when you know nothing about me.

i thought one of the main purposes of brawl+ was to make all characters tournament viable. link is always going to be a joke character at tourneys so long as his recovery is this poor.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

link is always going to be a joke character at tourneys so long as his recovery is this poor.

not only do you know nothing about brawl+, this statement is absolutely wrong.

 

[tommz]

i'd like to
1- see the link hop comparison be on the OP and perhaps even put in another post with similar comparisons from other characters
2- give you a golf clap in general Shadic for the excellent pictures in this guide

 

[matt4300]

i thought one of the main purposes of brawl+ was to make all characters tournament viable. link is always going to be a joke character at tourneys so long as his recovery is this poor.

Tell that to Finnz and Forte

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv6tJ6R-4n8&feature=channel_page

Yeh, thats a tourney, and yeh Link won said tourney...

On a side note... When and if we can change things about links bombs... shortening the fuse will give him new recovery options.

Though I do think its kinda odd that Zelda, Bowser,toonlink,gannon,falcon,lucario,ivy,ike,pit, and mario got either fixed up-bs, new ways to recovery, or just all around better recoverys... and link got like a foot or vertical lift added... though to be fair we do have hookshot and sometimes bomb jumps. Oh, and apparently the momentum fix that worked for falcon,bowser, toonlink, and falcon doesnt work for link... sigh it's always got to be complicated for link.

I find it funny how you're speaking for the link mains when i've never before seen you on this site. you do know the real link mains are on aib right? anyway, i wouldnt call that a 'bad name'. most people dont think that about the link mains. they understand where they're coming from if they do talk about how bad their character is, and its just the noobs who excessively do that, anyway. as for link mains not being able to agree on things (or w/e you're talking about), go to our matchup thread

1.I'm not speaking for the link mains... I'm helping our voices be heard in a more organized fashion so that something actually gets done.

2. You havent seen me much because most of my convos are through the IRC, or Msn. I find it accomplishes more to talk with the people making it.Than posting random things on such a huge site.

3. I hate Brawl online for the most part... and I dont play Brawl anymore... why would I be on Aib

4. You havent been in the brawl+ "scene" long enough to have seen/been a part of all the link convos like I and other links have. You wouldnet know about our reputation in Brawl+ (sonic mains are also pretty vocal about problems)

5. If you think we can all agree I'd like to see you try and get us to. (I don't think link needs anything done to his up-b... OH LOOK WE DON'T AGREE )

 

[shanus]

Tell that to Finnz and Forte

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv6tJ6R-4n8&feature=channel_page

Yeh, thats a tourney, and yeh Link won said tourney...

On a side note... When and if we can change things about links bombs... shortening the fuse will give him new recovery options.

Though I do think its kinda odd that Zelda, Bowser,toonlink,gannon,falcon,lucario,ivy,ike,pit, and mario got either fixed up-bs, new ways to recovery, or just all around better recoverys... and link got like a foot or vertical lift added... though to be fair we do have hookshot and sometimes bomb jumps. Oh, and apparently the momentum fix that worked for falcon,bowser, toonlink, and falcon doesnt work for link... sigh it's always got to be complicated for link.

No Matt, the momentum code worked for link, but you guys hated it and had me remove it. Do you not realize what it did?

 

[matt4300]

No Matt, the momentum code worked for link, but you guys hated it and had me remove it. Do you not realize what it did?

What? No... we didnnt hate it. It just didnt help with the real problem with his momentum.
We liked that it gave him a better horizantal recovery. The problem we had is that it didnt fix the fact that when you ledge hop backwards or hold a direction before you up-B it ****s him.. he just goes strait up, falling to his doom.
A code that lets him Jump second jump backwards then up-b and travel forwards is what we need. The one that was made did help his recovery though.

I thought we all agreed that it didnet fix the problem and thats why you removed it. This was a misunderstanding.



EDIT: Good man, Kief Yeh next week should have some link changes. At least thats what hear...

 

[Kief]

Well I figure i'll just go ahead and try it. Should I get the plussary set or the nightly build? Also, are there any link changes being made right now that would be done shortly? If so i'll wait til they're done.

 

[Swordplay]

KIEF you'll love it.

I just want to say this.

Links recovery did get better with the up-b code ( IN COMPARRISON TO EVERYBODY ELSE )
This is due to higher gravity, on most other characters and no ASL. Also, Links up-b protects him much more than other characters so no ASL hurts other characters a lot more than Link.

I also am to blame for some whine. SORRY. I do want to admit though the BR+ is doing a great job.

 

[Shadic]

tommz - Thanks! And I think I'll get a slighter cleaner version of the Link recovery picture put up next week soon.

KIEF - I've been pretty adamant about changing his Fair to make it so both hits are equally (Or close to) strong, so that you don't have to worry about the first Fair hit sucking. zxeon said he really liked it, Shanus never responded, and I haven't heard anything from the other mains.. But I still think it would be a nice change.

 

[Revven]

Well I figure i'll just go ahead and try it. Should I get the plussary set or the nightly build? Also, are there any link changes being made right now that would be done shortly? If so i'll wait til they're done.

The nightly builds = The Plusery set fyi, they just get updated every night while the official set of "we're done testing this stuff" is the sticky at the top of the forums. The most up to date stuff is in the nightly builds right now.

 

[Kief]

Well I got brawl+. I haven't got used to the hitstun change at all yet. I have no idea what to even try to do when im getting comboed, or trying to survive. The computers seem to get out of hitstun way earlier than me, so I must be doing something wrong. I can barely ever land two utilts in a row as link, when the computer link landed 5 on me. It's rather annoying.

My wii has also frozen 11 times since last night, all at the character select screen. Idk why the handicap is turned on in the default settings. Basically I could be happier right now. >_>

I do like some of the changes to link, though. I like being able to actually use upB and uair. Landing on the ground with dair is funny. Link looks like he's on a pogo stick. xD

But I've only played it one night so I have some more playing to do.
Meanwhile, can somebody tell me what I should do when im in hitstun? Like what is the quicked way to get out of it? Airdodging likes to not work. <_<
Also, if somebody knew why my wii keeps freezing, that would be great.

 

[shanus]

Well I got brawl+. I haven't got used to the hitstun change at all yet. I have no idea what to even try to do when im getting comboed, or trying to survive. The computers seem to get out of hitstun way earlier than me, so I must be doing something wrong. I can barely ever land two utilts in a row as link, when the computer link landed 5 on me. It's rather annoying.

My wii has also frozen 11 times since last night, all at the character select screen. Idk why the handicap is turned on in the default settings. Basically I could be happier right now. >_>

I do like some of the changes to link, though. I like being able to actually use upB and uair. Landing on the ground with dair is funny. Link looks like he's on a pogo stick. xD

But I've only played it one night so I have some more playing to do.
Meanwhile, can somebody tell me what I should do when im in hitstun? Like what is the quicked way to get out of it? Airdodging likes to not work. <_<
Also, if somebody knew why my wii keeps freezing, that would be great.

Are you using PAL or NTSC? I haven't had a freeze probably in the past 2 months except for when i made a mistake making a set.

 

[VietGeek]

Are you using PAL or NTSC? I haven't had a freeze probably in the past 2 months except for when i made a mistake making a set.

I know this is an odd place to report this, but I get random freezes after pressing Start to end the Result Screen (NTSC-U). It has happened since the 5/06 Plussery nightly build. At first I thought it was because I press start to quickly, but then it froze at other intervals too.

Also KIEF, the "handicap" is actually your buffer (yes, you can customize it now ionstead of default 10 frames in Brawl). If you set it to 100, your controls will feel as responsive as they are in normal Brawl. If you set it to 0, none of your actions are buffered. If you set it to 30, then for 3 frames any input you put in will be buffered. You know what a buffer is, right?

 

[Kief]

Are you using PAL or NTSC? I haven't had a freeze probably in the past 2 months except for when i made a mistake making a set.

i have no idea

I know this is an odd place to report this, but I get random freezes after pressing Start to end the Result Screen (NTSC-U). It has happened since the 5/06 Plussery nightly build. At first I thought it was because I press start to quickly, but then it froze at other intervals too.

Also KIEF, the "handicap" is actually your buffer (yes, you can customize it now ionstead of default 10 frames in Brawl). If you set it to 100, your controls will feel as responsive as they are in normal Brawl. If you set it to 0, none of your actions are buffered. If you set it to 30, then for 3 frames any input you put in will be buffered. You know what a buffer is, right?

O_O

i did not know any of that. i just turned the handicap off...
no wonder i thought my controller was going dead...

 

[shanus]

I know this is an odd place to report this, but I get random freezes after pressing Start to end the Result Screen (NTSC-U). It has happened since the 5/06 Plussery nightly build. At first I thought it was because I press start to quickly, but then it froze at other intervals too.

Also KIEF, the "handicap" is actually your buffer (yes, you can customize it now ionstead of default 10 frames in Brawl). If you set it to 100, your controls will feel as responsive as they are in normal Brawl. If you set it to 0, none of your actions are buffered. If you set it to 30, then for 3 frames any input you put in will be buffered. You know what a buffer is, right?

Turn off texture hacks (that is remove them from your SD) and see if the problem remains. Given that its the first we've heard of it, I'd assume its texture related. DO you run with custom CSPs?

 

[Team Giza]

There is sometimes a problem with the nightly sets with the CSS random code being attached to the notes of CSS code when it should be its own separate code. Just copy and paste the CSS random code to make sure that the game is reading it.

I would assume this is your problem because when I accidentally didnt have that activated it resulted in similar freezes.

 

[Kief]

There is sometimes a problem with the nightly sets with the CSS random code being attached to the notes of CSS code when it should be its own separate code. Just copy and paste the CSS random code to make sure that the game is reading it.

I would assume this is your problem because when I accidentally didnt have that activated it resulted in similar freezes.

That worked, thanks. Now back to Link stuff...

KIEF - I've been pretty adamant about changing his Fair to make it so both hits are equally (Or close to) strong, so that you don't have to worry about the first Fair hit sucking. zxeon said he really liked it, Shanus never responded, and I haven't heard anything from the other mains.. But I still think it would be a nice change.

By doing that would you make the first hit a lot better, or make the first hit a little better while making the second a little weaker? I'd rather have the either the former, or keep it the way it is. >_>

 

[Shadic]

Making both hits similar in strength to the second one now. Details could be worked out, but I was mostly looking at Smash64 as a reference, where the first hit was stronger.

I think Swordplay and Matt don't really like it (Although I haven't talked to SP much, and Matt signed off on me..), but zxeon and I think it would be a good idea. Failing all else, try it in a nightly and see how it works, it's more reasonable than a lot of the things that get tried for a day or two.

 

[Swordplay]

In my opinion the best way to do it is to reduce the 1st hit KB so it ALWAYS combo's into the 2nd slash with ease.

On the flip slide, because it auto cancels, you can use the 1st slash to combo into something like a d-smash jab or spin attack and proceed to **** from there.

 

[Shadic]

Maybe, but I haven't seen any values that work very well.

 

[Finns7]

How do you guys feel about the dash attack?

At early percents it actually seems to hurt you, because of the end lag, its very easy to retaliate back. Im going to ask if this can get tweaked so he has better options out of it.

 

[Shadic]

The dash attack blows, it was pretty mediocre in Melee too. It was hard not using it most of the time.

I love the Smash64 one, because how it knocks the opponent back, and how the hitbox stays out FOREVER.

I don't know what we could really do with the current one though.

 

[Finns7]

I hate how you can get punished for CONNECTING with it at low percents.

 

[matt4300]

The dash attack blows, it was pretty mediocre in Melee too. It was hard not using it most of the time.

I love the Smash64 one, because how it knocks the opponent back, and how the hitbox stays out FOREVER.

I don't know what we could really do with the current one though.

make it faster >_> should I pm shannus about this? Does everyone here agree he needs it?

Oh, and Shadic I didn't intentionally sign off on ya... my internet crapped out while we were talking. I couldn't get on till the next morning.

but yeh ... me and SP agree that the fair first hit should combo into the second at all percents... and you and zxeon think that both hits should be powerfull. Wich is what I was explaining before my internet broke.... We don't ever seem to want to agree... on **** near anything

 

[Finns7]

I dont think fair should be an "easy" move. Connecting all the time unless they DI out at higher percents.


I have diff ideas for fair though.

 

[Shadic]

We can always ask if we can try both. I'd make the codes myself, but I don't know what the value is for the Fair hitbox.

Speeding it up world work as well, I think. That'd likely be the best of both worlds, although how we can connect it on grounded characters like Pikachu is a bit of a question.

And Matt - It's fine.

 

[Kief]

The dash attack is awful.

Like finns said, when you connect it, they're able to hit you before you can hit them. Stupid. >_>

EDIT: I like both those ideas for fair. SP's is a little cooler though.
We still need a throw to be useful, to have something to set up a kill move.

 

[Shadic]

Downthrow to UpB at mid percents, or something? I always liked that on some fastfallers.