Link+ [Updated 10-8 - Farewell F-Air, we hardly knew ye]

[Shadic]

Yeah, you have one hell of a Link. Looking forward to seeing (And showing) more videos of you.

 

[LH621]

Thanks. =)

I'll keep trying to rep him the best i can, but im still trying to get used to Brawl+ mechanics and figuring out what combo's work where...but most importantly, matchups! (i had them mostly figured out in Brawl....but now its kinda like starting all over again in Brawl+ since everyone [for the most part] changed quite a bit)

 

[Deleted member]

hi there link mains.

after messing with hitboxees yestersday I might (big might) have found a way to not make the bommerang suck.
you see both the boomerang and ganon's Utilt have wind effect, right?
now it just happened the this wind effect on ganon actually is a hitbox (4 actually), so I thought that links boomerang might have a hitbox on the wind part too.

I haven't had time to check this yet, but if this is so then we can just change that to not have the lame wind effect.

I would also like to see some creative input from you guys to what we do with it (make it spike on the way back? stuff like that).

 

[V-K]

Yup, in Melee the boomerang was much better so I would really like to have that old thing back.

 

[Swordplay]

Interesting.........

If you did change it keep in mind you can both soft and hard throw the rang...............more thoughts on this later.

But I'm "at peace" with Link right now, I think he is finally playable so you can do whatever you want if you think it makes him "more viable." Cause thats what I want in the end, for every character to be as viable as possible.

 

[Rouenne]

Yup, in Melee the boomerang was much better so I would really like to have that old thing back.

I agree there, but I still think Link needs to be faster overall

 

[Shadic]

*Words*

Anything but what it currently does would be nice. Maybe just have it so it pops people up on the way out, and knocks them towards you on the way back? I'm not really sure yet... I'd have to think about it.

 

[Kief]

*thrashing of the boomerang*

What are you talking about? o_O
The boomerang rocks, imo at least. It's my favourite of his specials. It has multiple uses. It's both powerful and lulzy. I love the boomerang, especially the gale effect. In fact, my section in Project Link will feature a double galekill (yeah. the gale wouldof killed him but my bomb saved him so my gale could kill him again)

So yeah, I wouldn't change anything about it. Unless you guys wanted to make it trip more or something that'd be cool. >_>

 

[LH621]

imo, Link is actually faster now then has been in any previous smash iteration, so why is it that he needs to be even faster than he already is?....Im sure a faster Link would be great to have, but is it a necessary change?......As for the boomerang, it not having a hitbox on the return and having the wind effect instead can actually be a great thing if used properly. The new mechanics in Brawl+ allows for a much easier way of dragging your opponent back to you after launching him/her away and tacking on extra damage or using it as an edge guarding move so why think about changing it? Besides, the boomerang gives enough hitstun to guarantee a Dair in certain situations so its good enough lol.

 

[MagmarFire]

I'm not too much of a fan of changing the Gale Boomerang myself, if only for the Galeguarding effects and the situational, yet satisfying, double-Dsmash combo. If the change were implemented with the wind effect still intact, however, that would be a different story. XD

In all honesty, though, it's a change I could personally live without.

 

[Swordplay]

imo, Link is actually faster now then has been in any previous smash iteration, so why is it that he needs to be even faster than he already is?....Im sure a faster Link would be great to have, but is it a necessary change?......As for the boomerang, it not having a hitbox on the return and having the wind effect instead can actually be a great thing if used properly. The new mechanics in Brawl+ allows for a much easier way of dragging your opponent back to you after launching him/her away and tacking on extra damage or using it as an edge guarding move so why think about changing it? Besides, the boomerang gives enough hitstun to guarantee a Dair in certain situations so its good enough lol.

Right on the money.

In VB the Rang wind sucked *pun intended.* VB was highly a spam game so anything that helped bring the opponent toward you (especially for Link) was a Terrible idea.

In B+ Link can use it more appropriatly. * I won't say better because Tink's is still better but the rang wind IS better in B+) It messes up spacing more with a faster gameplay which Link can actually punish now with a viable move set.



I want to correct one thing here. Many people seem to think Link is faster, he is not. He just seems faster because his disjointed range covers lots of ground quick. Its all perception I guess.


IMO. The only projectile Link needs changed is Bombs but we have no code. (I believe it is because they resemble items) Other changes are just gravy. (not that I mind gravy)

 

[Deleted member]

ok forget the boomerang then. what exactly is wrong with the bombs Swordplay?

 

[Popertop]

nothing is wrong with link, he's a good character, he still gets gimped tho

 

[Revven]

ok forget the boomerang then. what exactly is wrong with the bombs Swordplay?

I can answer this for him.

In Melee, they didn't have a whole lot of KB, so you could use them to lead into other projectiles (boomerang) or start up combos. Due to how slow Link is, he needs a good projectile to start combos from far away, the bombs do too much knockback and KBG as a whole. They're pretty useless in most cases but, have some uses I've seen. However, in their current state, they are terrible to use at any %, especially for approach or to start up a combo.

In other words, their KB needs to be tweaked (lowered) so Link can use them more effectively.

On the other hand, in 64 the bombs had a lot of growth but, some pretty decent BKB and could still combo just as well as they could in Melee. However, Brawl just totally ruined them, IMO.

 

[Popertop]

no, you just need to learn how to use them

knockback makes them more dangerous at higher percents, particularly at the top of the screen, so you can use them to pressure an opponent above you and for traps

 

[LH621]

no, you just need to learn how to use them

This

At lower %, your able to get plenty of juggles with the bomb (case in point, this combo...*with a bomb in hand* SHAD, Z-air, throw bomb, hyphen slide (i dont know the actual name of the technique, but once that lands, you have several options available to you afterward, u just need to be creative)....in fact, when approaching, this is one of your most reliable way of launching an opponent..the increased KB that is has now is actually a GOOD thing since it pops the opponent up high enough to start a combo earlier moreso than in the past.

At higher %, as popertop already noted, it becomes a projectile that can actually kill you on hit, thus increasing its threat, and thus making it extremely easy to setup traps (example: Link throws a bomb upwards at a falling opponent....the opponent does an air dodge to dodge the bomb...but the Link player sees this coming and does a Dair at the place where the opponent's air dodge invul frames would end, essentially giving an "unblockable" setup (if u want to call it that))

Not that im actually suggesting this, but if there's a projectile that u want to change, then give the Arrows back its original frames from vB so that Link keeps the AT's available for that particular projectile (its not needed, but it would be nice to have that back)

 

[GHNeko]

Making bombs indiscriminatory like Snake's nade in air would be a better change for link, as he'd be able to bomb jump again. Just like in 64 and Melee.

 

[LH621]

I kinda forgot about bomb jumps lol.

Although it'd be nice to have it back, you would have to decrease the KB in the bombs......if that KB is retained AND Link gets the bomb jump, people will complain b/c it'd be impossible to get Link beneath the stage to gimp him w/o spiking him down there (he could just blow up and sky rocket all the way off to the top of the screen).....in retrospect, this would almost completely get rid of the recovery problem link has...but because it'll do that, thats the reason people will complain about it and have it removed or altered so its like the melee bombs...which (imo) is a bad idea

 

[GHNeko]

I kinda forgot about bomb jumps lol.

Although it'd be nice to have it back, you would have to decrease the KB in the bombs......if that KB is retained AND Link gets the bomb jump, people will complain b/c it'd be impossible to get Link beneath the stage to gimp him w/o spiking him down there (he could just blow up and sky rocket all the way off to the top of the screen).....in retrospect, this would almost completely get rid of the recovery problem link has...but because it'll do that, thats the reason people will complain about it and have it removed or altered so its like the melee bombs...which (imo) is a bad idea

lrn2DI&

​

 

[Swordplay]

You guys are all nuts. Read on and allow me to explain.

Right now Links bad recovery is a staple weakness. If you haven't played him recently, he is up there with the onstage gods. He reminds me of a Falco or Ivy with a lesser spam and more disjointed melee attacks. Maybe you could relate him to marth only with less speed and more range. It makes it very hard to get through. He is probably in the top half of the roster right now. The new zair and dash attack give him combo setups so fantastic you wish you had them. DAC/U-smash and Fair are such good finishers they make me drool. Next time you play him just try zair>fair and you will be like WTF man.

That said, Link needs some weaknesses like recovery. What Link does not need is more buffs. He could use "changes" though. For example, better Bombs for higher ARL 40-45 and/or d-tilt nerfed / changed to a meteor. I gave that example because of the spammability of dair and how high ARL was only needed when Link sucked balls. (And you know how I feel about d-tilt) Those are just examples, don't throw items at me out of anger.

Yea Neko I know Link has recovery problems, if you don't like to deal with that weakness play TL or Kirby. If not a weakness in recovery, then what?????

To LH621, Yea bombs have SOME applications like the limited throw bomb down>nair and zair with bomb but they could be made so much better. If they were better, Bombsliding and JCT would be so legit because they can set up to more projectiles like Boomerang or even air moves like fair or dair with momentum. Basically LH621, Bombs really don't kill in B+ especially with higher gravity and there only combo application is at low %'s. I think many people would like to see those applications extended into the higher %'s for "****" setups.

 

[GHNeko]

Link's recovery would still be bad with bomb jump. I dont know what you're talking about. If anything, it sets him up for more potent gimps (cape, water gun, spikes, semi spikes)

If his percents are too high and he tries to bomb jumps, the people on stage will have more than enough time to smack him back/away and harder due to hitstun.


**** man. Look at snake. Havnt you seen how many time people predict the tradjectory of his bomb jump and simply spike him?

 

[Revven]

This

At lower %, your able to get plenty of juggles with the bomb (case in point, this combo...*with a bomb in hand* SHAD, Z-air, throw bomb, hyphen slide (i dont know the actual name of the technique, but once that lands, you have several options available to you afterward, u just need to be creative)....in fact, when approaching, this is one of your most reliable way of launching an opponent..the increased KB that is has now is actually a GOOD thing since it pops the opponent up high enough to start a combo earlier moreso than in the past.

At higher %, as popertop already noted, it becomes a projectile that can actually kill you on hit, thus increasing its threat, and thus making it extremely easy to setup traps (example: Link throws a bomb upwards at a falling opponent....the opponent does an air dodge to dodge the bomb...but the Link player sees this coming and does a Dair at the place where the opponent's air dodge invul frames would end, essentially giving an "unblockable" setup (if u want to call it that))

Not that im actually suggesting this, but if there's a projectile that u want to change, then give the Arrows back its original frames from vB so that Link keeps the AT's available for that particular projectile (its not needed, but it would be nice to have that back)

Let me go piece by piece.

1) It's not a good killing option, who seriously, with good DI is going to die from a bomb that hits almost vertically 100% of the time die at 130% and above? Especially when most characters don't die until much later in comparison to Brawl. The bombs suck as a KO option, don't give me that, at all. The bombs weren't ever meant to kill, that's just silly to give as a reason to keep the bombs the same.

2) You've got a few options, I said that, I said in some cases they are useful as far as I had seen from Finnz's matches I've watched. But, those are only a few cases... over how many you would get if the bombs were fixed to work better for more than just jumping in the air, throwing the bomb down, Nairing, and then SHAD Zair to whatever? I didn't say the bombs were completely useless but, they kinda are above 100%, nobody is going to die from a bomb. I've never seen anyone die from a bomb even in Brawl, and you're telling me you're going to get a KO with a bomb in Brawl+? I laugh at that.

3) The bombs, being fixed to have lower KB on either KBG or BKB, would make them worlds better than they are now. It would help his bomb sliding and overall, approaching with them without jumping or even jumping and throwing them down, instead, you could throw them at the opponent to get a combo started. Doesn't that sound better? Sound safer? I think it does.

Yes, the bombs as they are now, have uses. Is it a lot? No. Once you get them past that 100% threshold, they become useless as a KO option and once that happens, Link can't really link real well into any KO moves and has to hope that Zair pulls through for him or by other means of setups to KO. If the bombs worked better past 100%, the bombs could help him a lot more at those higher percents than what he currently can do.

Here's a good example: Raptor Boost. Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost was pretty okay before the KB change it got. You were lucky to land a knee and a Uair was pretty okay to land. However, the KB was too high, he still had some options from it but, not everything he could have from it with the KB fix. Now look at RB, it's used a lot more because it's a bit safer when you land it and you have a lot more options from it then just one Uair. RB and bombs are two different things but, lowering the KB on either one is the same principle: it is making the move/projectile work how it should or how it used to.

Of course we could do a blend of both sides. Keep the BKB the same but, lower the KBG. Keep the KBG the same but, lower the BKB. Keep the BKB the same, heighten the KBG to allow the bombs to kill earlier and overall more reliable at KOing above 140% or so. Just something to make them more useful than they currently are. As right now, as I understand it, Link's best approach is Zair and right after that now would be Nair. Bombs being used more often as an approach would just help Link's projectile game out more as well as flesh him out and pretty much give him a good enough ground game to warrant his bad recovery.

 

[Kief]

He is probably in the top half of the roster right now.

Yea Neko I know Link has recovery problems, if you don't like to deal with that weakness play TL or Kirby. If not a weakness in recovery, then what?????

I still say he's bottom third of the roster lol. Definately not top half though.

And Lucario has no weaknesses. Link would be fairly similar to him if not for his recovery.

 

[Shadic]

I'd say he's right in the middle of the roster - Somewhere between the bottom third and the top third.

Anyways, what would improve Link's Metagame? We just got a very small speedup on his Utilt.

 

[GHNeko]

Bomb Jump imo.

Verstile but bad recovery > bad recovery.

 

[Swordplay]

Okay so we did shiek and mario (I adjusted the mario matchup cause of the changes)

Here are the matchups and reasons to why they are.

Thanks for the pic Shiek+ boards

45-55 Sheik. (according to shiek boards, I tend to agree)


Pros
-Projectiles.
-More strength
-Zair/overall range on atacks

Cons
Gimped easily
Combo'd easily
Shiek's speed and approach negates our range.

Thanks for the pic Matt4300!!!!

40-60 Mario

Pros
Disjointed Range
Projectiles
Strength

Cons
Marios approach angle is hard for Link to handle. (even though its 1 dimensional (SH fireball))
The cape owns us both as a gimping tool and reflector.
Mario has a better Combo game.





We should continue matchups, I'm going to writting a stratagy section for the OP soon!!!!

 

[GHNeko]

Prepare to change the mario match up further in mario's favor. : p

 

[Popertop]

wow GHneko get *****

tahat shiek pic is haaaaawt and boobzzz

 

[GHNeko]

wow GHneko get *****

wait whaaat

 

[LH621]

Image

Ok so you linked a picture that shows yoshi using DI to tech right after the bomb hit...ok thats nice...good job for the picture...exactly how does that have anything to do with what you quoted from my statement?

As for your other post that came shortly after the first one, what you said would be true if the bomb jump worked exactly the way it did in melee and smash64....but they dont. My statement assumes that the current KB property of the bomb remains the same when u implement the bomb jump...at high percentages....lets say 150 so that we're on the same page....you use a bomb jump and DI upwards, it'll pop u up quite a distance.....in fact, i dont see how u couldnt do it multiple times at higher percentages....which was something u couldnt do multiple times before because the bomb barely launched u vertically (even if u could, did it matter? probably not...).....a simple stage pick can counter this, but Link doesnt need to turn into Snake with his recovery regardless.

Its hard to further elaborate without it sounding like theory fighter chitchat so i wont bother. To specifically address something though, u said " If his percents are too high and he tries to bomb jumps, the people on stage will have more than enough time to smack him back/away and harder due to hitstun."....well if u bomb jump close to the stage, then obviously your opponent can do what you said....but again, with the current bomb properties (specifically, the vertical distance u could go at a high %), u could probably reach a height that your opponents couldnt reach u at b4 you had the ability to air dodge again depending on where outside the stage you performed the bomb jump.....some characters might still be able to gimp this stragety...but not many.

Stuff

Good post....there's just a couple of things i need to address

1) i NEVER implied that the bomb was a good killing move. i simply said that it can kill. in vB, this was possible if u chucked a bomb vertically and managed to hit an opponent near the peak of a grounded bomb toss (obviously, they needed to be at a relatively high %, but it was still possible, which is my point)....the increased gravity in B+ probably makes it take even longer before u see the same result...which makes it almost slim/none that you'll see it in a match (which is basically what you were saying)....but so what if thats the case?

2) "Bombs were never meant to kill in the past"....ok sure, thats a pretty obvious statement to make...u can even try to argue that it still isnt meant to now in vB and B+, but the fact remains that it IS possible (is it likely to happen in a match? probably not, but i wasnt analyzing practicality with the tactic)

3) You mentioned something about how the bomb essentially loses its purpose at over 100%..cant say that i agree with this statement, but lets ignore that fact for a moment...so what if it does lose its purpose? Link has other tools at his disposal to basically overshadow this, and its not like the bomb is completely useless past 100% anyway....u just end up using it differently.

4) In regards to your 3rd point......im not going to sit here and say that a change to the BKB or KBG to the bomb wouldnt buff it, because it definately would, but....well, u could already throw a bomb at your opponent and combo them in the current B+ build (at lower %...at higher percents....o i dunno...maybe you can choose to do something else....???)....with the proposed change you mentioned, perhaps it would be safer (and thus, better) and open up some options....but is it needed? IMO, no

-----------------

The underlying point Im trying to make (overall) is to leave Link the way he is now and actually learn to use the guy rather than trying to fix something just because u deem it useless (honestly, it just sounds like u dont know how to use Link or are unwilling to work with what you have now). the buffs Link got from vB to B+ is more than enough. If u dont like him, then learn a new character.

 

[Sterowent]

bah, the "learn to use what you have, obviously" tactic is what keeps characters down.

the idea is that a character has enough options as is, whether they do or not. it doesn't consider the difficulty of using some of these options or their situational usage either.

"...but is it needed?" is the same thing as "...but does my character Need another option?"

not always. but if his options are basically irrelevant to too many situations, or are too difficult to perform(tech skill is a-okay) then you've got yourself a mid or lowtier character.

the only true question after assuming he needs it is "is this option relevant to my character's strengths? or weaknesses?"

Edit: just want to say, i'm not purposely trying to be harsh here. this one-liner just irks me.

 

[LH621]

bah, the "learn to use what you have, obviously" tactic is what keeps characters down.

the idea is that a character has enough options as is, whether they do or not. it doesn't consider the difficulty of using some of these options or their situational usage either.

"...but is it needed?" is the same thing as "...but does my character Need another option?"

not always. but if his options are basically irrelevant to too many situations, or are too difficult to perform(tech skill is a-okay) then you've got yourself a mid or lowtier character.

the only true question after assuming he needs it is "is this option relevant to my character's strengths? or weaknesses?"

Edit: just want to say, i'm not purposely trying to be harsh here. this one-liner just irks me.

no offense taken

It just seems like Link already has enough to win, so giving him even more things might be stretching it a bit, thats all. As for the difficulty aspect of the statement, just becacuse something is hard to perform shouldnt be grounds for changing it. Im sure for most of the situations where this occurs, there's some alternative option thats easier to perform.

Either way, moving along, here's a new vid for those who are interested. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olWg2DdtLdw&feature=channel_page

 

[Swordplay]

no offense taken

It just seems like Link already has enough to win, so giving him even more things might be stretching it a bit, thats all. As for the difficulty aspect of the statement, just becacuse something is hard to perform shouldnt be grounds for changing it. Im sure for most of the situations where this occurs, there's some alternative option thats easier to perform (it may not give off quite a reward as the harder option, but thats the point of a risk/reward system).

Either way, moving along, here's a new vid for those who are interested. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olWg2DdtLdw&feature=channel_page

I tend to agree with this statement. Infact, I really believe you are all underestimating Links abilities right now.

Sure he gets gimped but he is possibly the most beast thing Onstage I have ever seen in a smash game. One of the reasons I think this is because his metagame relies around tools that are VERY unique to Link. Let me give an example.

Links best possible tool right now is zair. Its safe and it combos into both kill moves and combo strings. Link is one of 3 characters to have a zair and he relies on it much more than Samus or Toon Link because of he is not floaty like those two making it faster and better. (not to mention all the tricks you can do with it)

One the other hand, Link has one of the worst grab games in Smash, not because his grab is trash (its just bad) but because he has really bad throws. Grabbing for most characters is a good thing and comes naturally to players but not so much for Link.

That vid shows 4 things.

The Correct way to play Link. Byron uses zair for approaches and FF bairs for retreats. He mix's up jab cancels into appropriate moves to jab cancel into and he takes advantage of Links amazing momentum, landing with appropriate combo finishers. To Byron, Your so good, my only suggestion would be to jab when your opponent fails a tech instead of nair. It will force a get up which you punish with fsmash



It also shows why I dislike the d-tilt. (Thinks it should be a meteor or removed) I honestly think that Link is so good onstage that he doesn't need this and dair fairs and nairs will serve fine for edge guards. (Besides, d-tilt never comes into play but when it does its always a cheap low% kill. Nerfing it really wouldn't be a problem. I'd trade this for Better bombs any day of the week

It shows that most of you know nothing about Link because you have A. Never faced a good one or B. Never played a good one because he has always been average or worse in all three previous games.

4th. It shows Sonic vs Link is a bad matchup for Sonic. I come to this conclusion because sonics strategy is hit and run combos and when you play a hit and run character, you have to consistently get weave in and out of Links range which is a huge Link advantage. Other characters like Shiek have an easier time getting in and staying in than sonic.

 

[LH621]

Would changing the Dtilt to a meteor alter the way it launches a grounded character?

I kinda lol at how Dtilt works now....b/c u can set up an "almost" instant KO if u hit someone slightly off the edge in a jab jab Dtilt combo (it doesnt actually combo, but the timing to get the AD out is extremely small)..only a handful of characters can actually survive that spike in its current form and doesnt need to be that good (u can try to DI it and tech off the side of the stage, but good luck actually accomplishing that)

Edit: Here's another vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmdFXrWb6l0&feature=channel_page Some odd things happen in that match that kinda scratch my head at looking back on it now.

2nd Edit: Kind of a "lol" fact, but the vid on Yoshi's stage chronologically comes BEFORE the match on Battlefied that's linked in my last post.......Losing bad does good things to your game!

3rd Edit: At Swordplay: Yea, your right. At times, thats what i do, but when i go for the Nair, i try to think ahead of the opponent and believe that he's going to tech in place (im just making sure the Nair is out before the opponent has a chance to block it after teching). I know that u can wait to see the tech then punish it with Nair, but i find it harder to get any followup out in time a decent amount.

 

[Swordplay]

Would changing the Dtilt to a meteor alter the way it launches a grounded character?

No because it wouldn't change the KB. THATS THE GREATEST PART. It would just allow people to meteor cancel it offstage so the kills wouldn't come at 20-35%. It would be more 70-100% and still be a fearful edge tool.

Plus, you have zair edge guard you can use. Use zair on the edge 3 times to regain invincibility frames. Those 2 combined take away both strategies of going for the ledge and going for the stage. You go for the ledge you get edge hogged, you go for the stage and a spike is waiting. Its really powerful right now.

I kinda lol at how Dtilt works now....b/c u can set up an "almost" instant KO if u hit someone slightly off the edge in a jab jab Dtilt combo (it doesnt actually combo, but the timing to get the AD out is extremely small)..only a handful of characters can actually survive that spike in its current form and doesnt need to be that good (u can try to DI it and tech off the side of the stage, but good luck actually accomplishing that)

You could still do that as a meteor, it just wouldn't get really low% kills, only high% kills. Right now even at really low%'s , only a few characters like sonic meta D3 and kirby, can even survive that.

Edit: Here's another vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmdFXrWb6l0&feature=channel_page Some odd things happen in that match that kinda scratch my head at looking back on it now.

2nd Edit: Kind of a "lol" fact, but the vid on Yoshi's stage chronologically comes BEFORE the match on Battlefied that's linked in my last post.......Losing bad does good things to your game!

Maybe I was wrong about that sonic matchup LOL. He can sure gimp can he. Maybe its more even.

3rd Edit: At Swordplay: Yea, your right. At times, thats what i do, but when i go for the Nair, i try to think ahead of the opponent and believe that he's going to tech in place (im just making sure the Nair is out before the opponent has a chance to block it after teching). I know that u can wait to see the tech then punish it with Nair, but i find it harder to get any followup out in time a decent amount.

Okay good response. But still don't use nair if you THINK he is going to tech. Use dair instead it ***** much harder and you although you can't really follow it up you can't do that with nair either. Plus it puts you in a more advantageous position. With such a high ARL, its unlikely you'll be punished, even by sonic.


A lot of this stuff is going to be coming out in a guide soon. If you want to help your more than welcome.

 

[LH621]

Since Dtilt would retains the KB, i would be in favor of downgrading the spike to a meteor to balance the move out. It'd make the move not come off as being OP in situations where u shouldnt get that kind of reward

About Sonic:
Id argue that the Sonic/Link matchup is ......either 50/50....or.....55/45 in Sonic's favor, but i wanna get some more matches in before i make a choice (ill probably comment this weekend since im getting more games in tomorrow)

As for the Nair thing, ill definitely make the change since what u said does actually make sense and has a better reward. And i dont mind helping on the guide if my input is wanted lol. Send me a PM with the details at your convenience. There's a possibility that when this guide gets made, a combo video that's going to be in the works (sometime in the future) might be finished

****EDIT***** new match video that (ironically enough) shows why the Dtilt needs to be altered. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuRX0mzVTIM&feature=channel_page

 

[Sterowent]

hey, changing it to meteor sounds like the perfect thing, keeping it as a setup onstage but not instant death off(unless you're bowser/DK).

and, about my earlier comments. it's not because i underestimate him, though i do. it's that i see bombs being pointed out as a killer off top and i'm saying to myself, "why keep this incredibly situational kill, which is cool but very avoidable, instead of being given another killer setup?"

i realize that's not something to defend but merely something that was pointed out. it just surprises me when the option to make something better is shot down in the name of a cool, but mostly useless, tactic.

by the way, those sonic/link matches are always fun to watch. great dynamic to that matchup.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

lol Ramz and Byron are about to come over and play yay
from my experience having watched the match so terribly often, Sonic has a slight advantage only cause of his speed, combos, gimping. Link can't set up that terrific "wall of ****" as I like to call it (fair, zair, boomerangs, bombs, etc)

Though I think Falco has to be a much worse matchup. Lasers hurt Link too much...

 

[GHNeko]

tbh, I've always wondered. Couldnt you just walk more against falco? So that you could stand and block his lasers? I just tested out in training mode that SHDL, the top laser goes above link and the second hits his shield.

 

[LH621]

Falco can SH, wait, then shoot a laser at Link's face so that wont work =/. i did try that myself one time and found myself in the same situation as before (lasers a blazin and Link being kept still). The best approach that ive found is to mixup the direction of your SHAD's and try to Z-air Falco when your in range and right after the laser passes Link's body.....the alternative is to dash ~ block over and over until u get in Falco's face. If vids of RC (or TRC as he goes by here) vs my Link show up, then maybe that might give a basic idea but im still trying to figure out the best way to handle that matchup. Id definately have to agree that its one of Link's worst matchups...top 3 bad matchups...HOWEVER, unlike in the past, its actually not THAT difficult if u play it right.

To Sterowent: I wasnt supporting not changing the bomb b/c of the potential for it to kill. That was merely something that was brought up. Sorry if it came off that way. The reason i dont think it needs to change is b/c Link doesnt need the buff in the slightest (playing more matches today made me very aware of this). Giving it to him now would only prove to be an item that becomes too OP against normal - tall characters (even if no one believes this, im sure i can find a way to justify this), and make matchups against the smaller characters and the Star Fox crew slightly more even...which would be nice.......still, its not needed. Just to make it clear, i think the actual buff would be awesome to have...but if the goal is to make a BALANCED character, then leave Link alone as he is now (except the spike on Dtilt made to a meteor to further balance him out).