Link+ [Updated 10-8 - Farewell F-Air, we hardly knew ye]

[Finns7]

You have options from bombs at 100 and over. Its just a different way you use them.


The ditlt is not OP , jab jab is not guaranteed and the chances arent that high. Name me a character it *****, and I bet that character has something that ***** as equally.

Dk, snake and bowser are the easiest to dtilt, but onstage they all are equally as strong as link, and they all can edguard or gimp link. IF Link ****s up, he dies. He dies from a wide assortment of combos and **** tactics. Why not the same for links opponents who have tools just as <_< as the ditlt. Lets be real here, the whole balance characters out thing is <_< at times. Look at lucario (last time I played he had 2 upb's). Lucario could of won a tourney without that buff tbh and its not needed. Hell, you may call me crazy, but ganondorf is easy as hell to use because of the dair buff's, that I dont think he needed 100% to be viable imo.

 

[Shadic]

I think if the Dtilt gets turned into a meteor, we need to get something that can combat short characters.

I mean, the only thing Link really has a good advantage on is large characters... And a lot of the cast has that same exact advantage.

 

[V-K]

Everyone has disadvantages against small characters lol

 

[Swordplay]

I think if the Dtilt gets turned into a meteor, we need to get something that can combat short characters.

I mean, the only thing Link really has a good advantage on is large characters... And a lot of the cast has that same exact advantage.

We have something.

It's called Jab>Jab>Spin attack.

If you haven't tried it, it works extremely well against small characters and kills them at good %'s.

When I made that statement the spin attack wasn't reworked. Now its SO ****.

The ditlt is not OP , jab jab is not guaranteed and the chances arent that high. Name me a character it *****, and I bet that character has something that ***** as equally.

Dk, snake and bowser are the easiest to dtilt, but onstage they all are equally as strong as link, and they all can edguard or gimp link. IF Link ****s up, he dies. He dies from a wide assortment of combos and **** tactics. Why not the same for links opponents who have tools just as <_< as the ditlt. Lets be real here, the whole balance characters out thing is <_< at times. Look at lucario (last time I played he had 2 upb's). Lucario could of won a tourney without that buff tbh and its not needed. Hell, you may call me crazy, but ganondorf is easy as hell to use because of the dair buff's, that I dont think he needed 100% to be viable imo.

Alright I'll drop this issue. It just seems OP to me from my own experience (but my competition isn't great) and from watching Byron vids. I'll trust you know better

 

[Kief]

It would be really awesome if we stopped asking for nerfs now. Let things develop and I am 99.9 percent confident that you'll all eventually find out (those who don't believe it now) that Link is about slightly below right in the middle of the cast.

 

[Shadic]

I'm on the same page as KIEF here. I'd only want it changed to a meteor if we got something else out of it.

And besides, it's basically the same as it was in Melee, just a bit stronger.

 

[LH621]

new vid vs Mario: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx8I5cFi2L8&feature=channel_page

Few notes:

Mario will pretty much put himself in the air (whether its to approach, initiate an offense, etc.), which Link can take advantage up pretty well. If you can avoid getting combo'd, he's not that bad of a matchup to deal with

- Mario's approach, albeit linear (the SH fireball mess), can be dealt with using Z-air appropriately....it'll negate the fireball and hit Mario as well if he's in range.

- His cape is easily overcome by angling your projectiles so that if he reflects, they wouldnt hit u .....while getting out the Z-air to tag him and get something off him at the same time....with the proper circumstances, u can convert your Z-air to a combo that'll have him using his cape less and trying to get around your projectiles a different way

- Trying to do anything after blocking Mario's Dair will have u eating damage. Figure out what the opponent likes to do to follow up and take a DEFENSIVE approach to countering it (i.e dont try to mash an attack out)

- if u want to try and meet Mario in the air (id say that he can pretty much beat u in the air), only resort to Z-air or Nair (close only). Other attacks will either lose half the time....like Bair, but u still need this move in this match....or isnt fast enough in most situations (Fair)

- Dash attack into a Dair will kill if Mario was around 80% on most stages....so things like Z-air ~ DA ~ Dair, with tight timing, will steal one of mario's stock pretty fast. (Edit: I need to confirm this...i cant recall just how high a DA will pop Mario up at 80% but i want to say it'll still work....its just not in that particular video)

 

[Shadic]

What the heck happened at 2:23 ? o.o Cape to warp?

 

[LH621]

we never actually figured that out =/, but ive seen it happen more than once before.....im led to believe its b/c i got cape'd right when i was "suppose" to grab the ledge but i cant explain why specifically the game decided to warp me where it did rather than skyrocket me up vertically or do the other glitch (your character appears to be a part of the stage for a moment before warping to the edge)

So far, i havent seen a moment where it glitches u to death....so thats always a good thing lol

 

[Kief]

What the heck happened at 2:23 ? o.o Cape to warp?

I have no idea but it was funny.

 

[Rouenne]

I was checking the Brawl+ top ten characers for each people and Link
is still considered crap...WTF? After all the buffs is not enough to be good against others? Dude when will Link be acknowledged?


On other topic...I requested a Luke fon Fabre skin for Link in many threads but now I wonder...Does that skin already exist? If it does who uses it?

 

[Revven]

I was checking the Brawl+ top ten characers for each people and Link
is still considered crap...WTF? After all the buffs is not enough to be good against others? Dude when will Link be acknowledged?

Lots of people are ignorant of how good some characters are. There may not be any good Link mains around those people who claim Link sucks. They may also try playing as him and realize he sucks even thought it is in fact the way they are playing him that makes him suck.

Don't mind them. If you know your character is good, that's good enough. A lot of people still underestimate even DK, who is VERY VERY good, just not used a lot by many just like Link. Which is quite unfortunate.

 

[Shadic]

Yeah, Link's problem as far as reputation is that he's a very popular character, especially for those who know nothing about Smash Bros in a technical sense. I've seen tournaments where somebody will pick Link and only do his Up-B attack. (Melee)

 

[Swordplay]

Lots of people are ignorant of how good some characters are. There may not be any good Link mains around those people who claim Link sucks. They may also try playing as him and realize he sucks even thought it is in fact the way they are playing him that makes him suck.

Don't mind them. If you know your character is good, that's good enough. A lot of people still underestimate even DK, who is VERY VERY good, just not used a lot by many just like Link. Which is quite unfortunate.

This.....People will always think Link sucks because his of his recovery reputation.

Here, This information is statistically true.

Take the original 12 characters and who is the overall worst player on average in the 3 games?

LINK.




Let me put this out there now. Link isn't "special" but he by no means "sucks" now. He just has a higher learning curve. He is easy to pick up an learn but you won't go anywhere with him for real until you put significant time into him.

I tell people "well, if you didn't suck so much and learned to DI, you would probably realize DI is probably more important to Link than most other characters because its his weakness so just learn to use it"

I usually get a response like "we'll, good DI is hard to learn so I'm just going to play Kirby and Metaknight instead." I proceed to roll my eyes.

Not to mention Link is a high level character because you need his unusual zair and tougher to learn AT's to ****. But once you get those down, onstage **** presents itself in the form of a character who's strength is in how disjointed he is and unlike any other smash game, this disjointed wall's attacks actually cooperate and work for the character.




========================================================
One thing.

Disadvantages:

• Hard to combo opponents at higher percentages

I'd say thats true for every character in the game now. Link is about equal with other characters in this aspect, it really isn't a weakness anymore.


========================================================

Write up guide will come out soon, I've been told to add an in depth projectile section while I get contributions from other amazing people.

To all those who are working with me. THANK YOU!

 

[KayJay]

I made a Video to show some changes from regular Brawl Link to Brawl+ V4.1 Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmWI-LCKxKM&fmt=22

 

[BG3]

It's clear as day that Sakurai HATES Link. In the past 3 games, he never gave Link any type of great advantage like he did with Kirby or Pikachu. This is exactly the reason why I love Brawl+. The "good" characters aren't limited to Sakurai's choice.

 

[iSpiN]

It's clear as day that Sakurai HATES Link. In the past 3 games, he never gave Link any type of great advantage like he did with Kirby or Pikachu. This is exactly the reason why I love Brawl+. The "good" characters aren't limited to Sakurai's choice.

I think you missed the 2nd installment. But Link has always sucked. EVEN IN SOUL CALIBUR 2!

But I like him now, he's a great improvement.

 

[Kaizo]

I think you missed the 2nd installment. But Link has always sucked. EVEN IN SOUL CALIBUR 2!

But I like him now, he's a great improvement.

Oh yea, he was good in Melee, but he got gimped by a vast majority of the cast, including Sandbag.

I do agree that he was epic in Melee, and that Sakurai clearly just doesn't get laid as much as Link, and so he makes him lame out of spite. And also that Link was made a lot better in Brawl+.

 

[Rouenne]

Agree Sakurai is an elitist. It's abvious he doesn't give a crap about being fair with the characters. Just making broken the ones he likes.

 

[V-K]

You know what Link needs?
Infinite Bombs like in Melee. I hate it when I try to pull out another bomb and it doesn´t work because there are already 2 on the field.

 

[Swordplay]

Infinite Bombs like in Melee. I hate it when I try to pull out another bomb and it doesn´t work because there are already 2 on the field.

that hardly ever happens because in brawl and B+, you hold on to bombs longer through techniques like zair with bomb.

You know what Link needs?

A throw code and arguably an item KB code?

For the codes we have now, Link needs nothing except for some recognition and more high caliber players to play and test him. Most still write him off.

I made a Video to show some changes from regular Brawl Link to Brawl+ V4.1 Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmWI-LCKxKM&fmt=22

Nice vid. Its good to see you around KayJay

=========================================================================

In order to get OFF this subject, I have decided to release my Link+ write up piece by piece. We can go over it together. Combos are still being worked on.........

First up TECHING. Here is my analysis.








Techs

My opponent didn’t tech or isn’t teching. What should I do?

Your best option is jab, or arrow if at long range, once in order to force a get up animation. Since you can’t jab cancel anymore, follow it up with a charged f-smash. That typically is the best move to use.

My opponent is teching, how should I tech chase?

If you think the opponent will tech in place Dair him to punish his tech. Be sure to time it right but don’t worry, timing isn’t that hard. You can even FF the Dair. Even if you opponent doesn’t tech you’ll still hit him with a dair most of the time. If you do miss you probably won’t be punished because Link has such a high ARL.

If you think the opponent is going to tech roll use momentum to catch up with him. You can still use Dair but if you think the opponent will have enough time to make a counter attack, feel free to use the safer nair or even dash attack and predict the roll. If you would rather not risk it at all or feel you won’t catch up to yout opponent which is the case much of the time if not the majority, I find usually opponents tech away, feel free to just throw a projectile. A boomerang arrow you already have charged in anticipation or an arrow you already have charged in anticipation boomerang will work best.

What moves set up tech situations?

Boomerang is the big one. Also moves that poke players on platforms will often end in a tech situation if they shield. This happens more often than you think.

How should I tech?

Typically tech away, it’s the safest and it resets you to abuse Links awesome disjointed range again. Of course, how you should tech is character specific and unique to each situation.


DISCUSS

 

[BG3]

I think you missed the 2nd installment. But Link has always sucked. EVEN IN SOUL CALIBUR 2!

But I like him now, he's a great improvement.

Oh yeah, I forgot. Link was a beast in Melee, I loved playing him in that game.

 

[BG3]

Agree Sakurai is an elitist. It's abvious he doesn't give a crap about being fair with the characters. Just making broken the ones he likes.

Sorry about the double post, but this is SO true. It makes me pissed to see that someone like him is in the developers seat.

 

[bleyva]

Agree Sakurai is an elitist. It's abvious he doesn't give a crap about being fair with the characters. Just making broken the ones he likes.

the problem is that sakurai has a very simplistic mind when it comes to balance, im sure he viewed ganon and MK as equal during production, since one is slow and powerful, the other is fast and weak, therefore they balance out in his mind.

not to mention the fact that he probably wasnt even aware of 99% of the advanced techniques that have come to dominate the game.

he's not an elitist. he's just ignorant.

 

[Hyrus]

he's not an elitist. he's just ignorant.

Whilst probably the most sound assessment, keep the subject on Link+ folks.

 

[yami_sora]

Is there a way to make it so that you can use the claw shot after the up B? That would help him recover a bit I'd think.

 

[Swordplay]

yes.............This would give him more recovery range..............

But it wouldn't help. Its not like the melee clawshot where it can hit anywhere. It would still be extremly easy to just sit on the ledge and gaurd him like a tether.

 

[Finns7]

I think that would help, its a little unrealistic

I doubt he'll get that.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think Link is fine right now, besides a bomb buff he doesn't need anything IMO. He even has that sexy Dtilt that kills really early. I actually think that should be removed in place of another buff though since it's kinda cheap.

 

[teh_spamerer]

Brawl+ Link tutorial video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B87Ou6__0A&feature=channel_page

 

[MagmarFire]

I think Link is fine right now, besides a bomb buff he doesn't need anything IMO. He even has that sexy Dtilt that kills really early. I actually think that should be removed in place of another buff though since it's kinda cheap.

It's actually more situational than you might think. It's hard to land a hit if an opponent recovers below the edge, let alone if he or she sweetspots his or her recovery almost perfectly, which is what you should expect in a good opponent. You'd probably be better off trying to Zair edgeguard or just about any kind of edgeguarding in general, maybe even backing off to rebuild proper spacing between you and your opponent, depending on the opponent's recovery type. Onstage, although it does serve as a good combo starter into many of his aerials at low percentages, its start-up lag makes it semidecent shield/dodge/jump fodder. Not to mention that, as far as I know, it doesn't have the greatest priority over aerials anyway.

Lower BKB would probably be more fair of a nerf for it if it ever warrants one, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Swordplay]

I'd like to start another matchup discussion.

MARTH.

Alot of people see Marth as the best in the game in B+ and I would actually agree.

Its interesting because I think Link is a potential counter to Marth. My reasons stated below.



Projectiles!!!!
Zair out ranges everything. That means its much harder to play a tipper game. Not only that, out of all the zair characters Link is the only Fast Faller so its very spammable.
Both characters combo well. (Marth's better due to Link being heavier but that means Link lives till higher %'s usually)
Both characters are gimped.
Marth is faster but I don't think speed is an issue in this matchup as much as range because projectiles foce both characters to play a certain disjointed distance which I believe Link has the advantage in.




So lets discuss Marth. I think it will be interesting.

 

[LH621]

Although my experience with a good marth is a bit...lacking...i dont quite see what the big deal is with him (maybe its b/c of what i think about the matchup), so if anyone would like to fill me in on why Marth has all this hype behind him, that'd be nice.

Here's my assessment....take it with a grain of salt if u want to:

id say the Marth/Link matchup is in Link's favor so long as u understand how to zone him out properly. Although Marth is a kinda like a floaty, his hitbox is really easy to follow and that makes it easy to extend combo's thru Z-air and Boomerang assists....the only issue vs Marth is that landing Dair combo enders are difficult (but this problem exists with all floaters....to fix this, simply substitute with a Fair to punish someone who air dodged anticipating your Dair combo ender or do Uair, which is guaranteed any time Dair wouldve landed.....or......do a double jump Dair and dont fast fall it and just follow marth till he gets wacked, but i wouldnt really do this against floaters in general)

As mentioned, Link's projectiles will force Marth to approach a particular way, and so long as your ready to punish that approach when necessary, he isnt that difficult. Z-air outranges everything (that includes a counter at max range) so definitely spam it...but spam with some intelligence behind it. Marth is extremely susceptible to gale guarding tactics as well, but just beware of how far he is from u before attempting it..otherwise, it might be you getting gimped by a stage spike.

@swordplay: I havent forgotten about the combo list, i just havent had a chance to face off against a human player recently, so i havent commented yet. Im hoping that i can get some in tomorrow...but we'll see

 

[Finns7]

Marth isnt that big of a deal if you play it right, I'll get more into it later.

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

I like a lot of the changes for Link in B+ but is there any reason that right after I throw a bomb I am not able to shoot an arrow? it's something I love to do in vBrawl... so I keep trying it and failing in B+

 

[Finns7]

You can do it, your buffer is prob too low, so you have to be really precise.

 

[LH621]

new vid vs Mario that was recorded yesterday has been posted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxrlbgfQufY&feature=channel_page

 

[Swordplay]

Byron that gameplay was amazing...........I can't believe you are still getting better.

I noticed your techchasing with Dair now instead of nair. You adapt quickly, I know you didn't land it as much but its more risk reward and you hardly got punished for it.

Might have been closer if ramz had capitalized on some of those edge guard opportunities better (55 for example) .....Still crazy awesome match.



amazing use of zair edge hog to ****!!!!!

with that. its time for me to post another section of Link analysis. Edge guarding..............

==================================================================================================



Edge guarding

One benefit to the new physics of Link is being able to jump a tad higher. That means you can attempt punish opponents recovering from above with Fair/Uair, by throwing a bomb up or using your Boomerang. Many characters will attempt to do this in order to stay out of the way of Link’s D-tilt which currently kills most opponents easily. These techniques are useful against recoveries such as Bowser DK and Snake. However, some people are just good enough to sweetspot the ledge every time making it almost impossible to hit with. That leaves Link with two very good and popular as well as consistent edge guarding tools. The first is a flying Dair. Dair is used because it has kill potential but if you are attempted to just gimp the opponent, not flat out kill them, and feel free to use Nair. Fair can also be used if timed right. You will usually have to put out an fair and then FF at the right time to hit them with the 2nd hit. This type of edge guarding is used for almost everyone else.

The other amazing option is perhaps your best edge guarding tools and one of the harder ones as well ,is zair edge guard. Simply drop and quickly hit Z twice to grapple and regain invincibility frames. This type of edge guard is perfect for foes who attempt to sweet spot the ledge or against foes like Ike who’s recovery attack first before going to the ledge. You can still drop, bair and use your jump to regrab the edge but it isn’t as effective as the other methods mentioned.

 

[LH621]

Tech chasing with Dair can be fun, and the risk/reward is extremely good, but unless they landed on a platform above u or their % is above say...100 - 120, im starting to believe that it may be better to tech chase with a Dash attack instead, since it can potentially lead into:
1) the 2-hit death combo (Dash attack ~ Dair)
2) an extended combo at lower percents
My only other defense to this statement is that at times when i whiffed a Dair, a dash attack probably wouldve landed, thus setting up the death combo. Regardless, imo both options (Dair and Dash attack) are you best tech chasing options...with Zair being the 3rd best (used only when the other 2 attacks wouldnt reach in time)

Here's a link to 2 other vids. There's still 1 other video that im hoping will get posted (although maybe 12 matches got recorded total) that takes place in Skyworld/Wateworld. If/when it does, ill link it here as well. Its a fun one to watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpJ2dtrYZG4&feature=channel vs Mario
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iHWiGIRra8&feature=channel_page vs Sonic

 

[Swordplay]

You think so? A lot of my opponents Tech in place so I guess I'm using Dair a little more. I find the winddown to dash attack more punishable though.