Link+ [Updated 10-8 - Farewell F-Air, we hardly knew ye]

[BG3]

My guess would be that If d-smash was a reliable combo starer, a great vertical killer/horizontal killer, and a safe GTFO move, it would be constantly abused, which IMO isn't really good.

 

[matt4300]

Speaking of Link buffs... Werent we gonna get a no KBG bomb when we had the tools to do it? Sooo... Doesnt SA have the tools to make this happen now?

On the subject of the dsmash:

Hmmm... I almost never use it now.. I used to only use it for JCing. Now if there at combo percents I JC dash attack or utilt, and at kill percents I JC spin attack... It doesnt really have a use anymore since its such a ****ty kill move now.
If it where to get a KB buff I would substitute spin attack for it. Spin attack just barley kills lower than dsmash as it is right now. But the great thing would be that Spin attack would still have a use below killing percents to get them off stage where link can stab and or " throw **** at them" as I like to put it. Giveing both moves a use.

 

[Demacrez]

Yeah, I find myself lacking in the use of D-Smash. Didn't realize it until someone else put out those details.

What do you guys propose they should change about it?

 

[Revven]

matt, PSA can't edit props, and a bomb is a prop so we can't do that.

 

[Finns7]

Substitue? **** that ****, Im just askin for it to go back to vbrawl kill percents. Didnt gravity nerf it? in vbrawl it was ok as long as it was fresh. Really, upb isnt melee upb, and setups for it arnt that great at higher levles of play...play someone who knows how to DI out of AA combos and setups, its really gay. Most of links other setups can be teched out of, and his juggling is good but isnt used to combo into upb.

Your not gonna get so many dtilts and upb eguards against better opponents. And getting off spin attack or grab is still a risk, because if you miss then its gg's, zelda upsmash upsmash bair or fair 50 percent, would you like thunderstomp to downb offstage with that? I dont want no buff no overhaul marth stuff I just think it should kill a little earlier like it seemed to do back in the vbrawl days if fresh and if it hit on the right spot. Surviving a Link dsmash at 130 just doesnt seem right.

 

[Demacrez]

matt, PSA can't edit props, and a bomb is a prop so we can't do that.

Then he should pull Bob-ombs instead! >:3

Joking aside, you could probably change Link's D-Smash into something similar to Marth's D-Smash in the latest test build.

 

[NxtGenFalco93]

Overall I'd classify him as a glass canon character. He dies easy if gimped but he can kill too. If not gimped, Link can take plenty of hits before his own death as well. Link was built to be a on stage dominate force with a lacking ledge/offstage game. To that extent, he somewhat meets those qualifications. Not there yet but close.

that reminds me almost exactly like roy. and link even has the red during his sword swings.

 

[Swordplay]

wow so many things changed........d-tilts much harder but we got way better grabs. And ARL doesn't seem to make any difference except on Dair. Makes it less OP for its power I guess.

Opinions?

more importantly

Now that d-tilt doesn't set up nicely anymore I'm curios as to what setup moves you do more or less now.

My gameplay tells me to use F-tilt lots out of bair combos from pivots but it just doesn't have the power to do the job. (F-tilt sucks so much. But it just seems like it could be so good!!!!) So I'm having a little trouble adjusting.


The way I see it. I get a lot of Zair>Dash attack>Bair> and then try pivot f-tilt. as it seems to be the natural finisher.

Thoughts?

 

[MagmarFire]

I want my old Link back. Pretty badly. I don't even care if I lose the dash grab buff; I can just try dash canceling into a grab anyway.

That is all (even though this could be because I'm still adjusting to the changes).

At least my Zair>Dash Attack>Utilt>Bair>Utilt>Uair combo's still in. :3

 

[Demacrez]

Dash Attack>U-Tilt>U-Tilt>B-Air>Boomerang angled downward>F-Air combo. >:3

Or...

Dash Attack>U-Tilt>U-Tilt>U-Tilt>U-Air. >:3

 

[Shadic]

If we could have something to replace the lower ALR and harder Dtilt, what would it be? Higher KB arrows? Lower KB Bombs? Stronger Ftilt? Stronger last hit on Aerial UpB?

 

[Demacrez]

Arrows need some lovin'. And an instant KO F-Smash on both hits. XP

 

[Swordplay]

They promised us bombs when they got a prop code........IDK Link seems harder to use now....and he was hard to use before. Arrows would kind of polarize him the KB can be increased but not like BB, that would be stupid.......Right now I'm looking at Bombs and F-tilt as pivot F-tilts out of bair and (F-tilt is like an off speed F-smash for mindgames) have tons of potential. For some reason, I see lots of good players using F-tilt knowing it doesn't do much.........

I don't like the new direction the WBR took with Link. I'm fine with what they did and I agree with the nerfs they gave him......They basically took away links OP moves (AKA spam this move cause it *****) and thought grabs would help........sure you help his grab game but what good is a decent grab game with a sub-par throw game. But we all know how to crouch cancel grab for standing grabs...


Looking at how Link's moveset and metagame is developing......ITS SO BLATANTLY OBVIOUS WE NEED A CODE FOR PROPS TO MODIFY OUR BOMBS.

I have high hopes that something will be discovered in .Pac Files. If Prop, .Pac files can be located....they could possibly be changed...giving us the bombs we always dreamed of.

 

[PKNintendo]

They promised us bombs when they got a prop code........IDK Link seems harder to use now....and he was hard to use before.

I don't like the new direction the WBR took with Link. I'm fine with what they did and I agree with the nerfs they gave him......They basically took away links OP moves (AKA spam this move cause it *****) and thought grabs would help........sure you help his grab game but what good is a decent grab game with a sub-par throw game. But we all know how to crouch cancel grab for standing grabs...


Looking at how Link's moveset and metagame is developing......ITS SO BLATANTLY OBVIOUS WE NEED A CODE FOR PROPS TO MODIFY OUR BOMBS.

I have high hopes that something will be discovered in .Pac Files. If Prop, .Pac files can be located....they could possibly be changed...giving us the bombs we always dreamed of.

Amen to that bros.
Ness mains want to help make the yo-yo's better but we can't.

Yo-yo's are a ******* prop. They weren't in 64 OR Melee.

 

[shanus]

They promised us bombs when they got a prop code........IDK Link seems harder to use now....and he was hard to use before. Arrows would kind of polarize him the KB can be increased but not like BB, that would be stupid.......Right now I'm looking at Bombs and F-tilt as pivot F-tilts out of bair and (F-tilt is like an off speed F-smash for mindgames) have tons of potential. For some reason, I see lots of good players using F-tilt knowing it doesn't do much.........

I don't like the new direction the WBR took with Link. I'm fine with what they did and I agree with the nerfs they gave him......They basically took away links OP moves (AKA spam this move cause it *****) and thought grabs would help........sure you help his grab game but what good is a decent grab game with a sub-par throw game. But we all know how to crouch cancel grab for standing grabs...


Looking at how Link's moveset and metagame is developing......ITS SO BLATANTLY OBVIOUS WE NEED A CODE FOR PROPS TO MODIFY OUR BOMBS.

I have high hopes that something will be discovered in .Pac Files. If Prop, .Pac files can be located....they could possibly be changed...giving us the bombs we always dreamed of.

We could also buff his throw game.

 

[Swordplay]

We could also buff his throw game.

Maybe but since tether grabs are still pretty punishable, grabs wouldn't be used as often. My grab game has in fact degraded into using almost all pivot grabs. I only use one throw D-throw...so even if I land a grab my opponent can easy predict and DI.

Besides.....Why would I use a grab that is less safe and who's range isn't much greater than the sword which is extremely safe.....O and the sword can hit people in the air........That's why Jab Cancel will ALWAYS BE USED WAY MORE OFTEN than grabs to fulfill nearly the same purpose. The only time I DON'T pivot grab now is when I jab cancel into a grab......

Prop .Pac files need to be found. If bombs were tweaked.....they would work amazing with zair, dash attack DAC and fair.....

It just seems...in theory...The more and more I look at Link...it becomes obvious we are forming his metagame around the anticipation of fixing Bombs.....They seem to be the one move that if fixed.....will completely fix him as a character because all his other moves seem to work with bombs in theory.....

See Link is kind of like a Combo version of snake who lakes a setup move. I think the WBR recognizes this and tried to give him a grab game to fix it but I don't think grabs/throws will EVER work for Link due to the publishable of Tether.....

Thats why I suggested D-tilt (amazing onstage setup) and even though it was rightfully nerfed you saw the benefits. Thats why I suggested the zair (the benifits of this can easily be seen as good Link players consistently DAC/Fair into it for finishers and can start combos with it) even though it takes a little bit to set up. NOW I CAN ONLY SUGGEST THE IMPORTANCE OF BOMBS. I really think they are the key to completely fixing him.

I guess I can't do much but stress the importance of this.......Especially since I'm moving......I sincerely hope we get this fixed by either codes or .PAC files before B+ Gold comes out.

Amen to that bros.
Ness mains want to help make the yo-yo's better but we can't.

Yo-yo's are a ******* prop. They weren't in 64 OR Melee.

To respond to this.....Ness mains got cheated in the development of brawl. ( Sincerely believe it )

 

[matt4300]

Cape told me his run attack damage was fixed... It was some weird priority glitch that made it always do 10% (toon link damage) so thats good but its not a buff its a fix.
With dair not being so insane now link took a major blow to his tech chase game. We kinda need to use falling nairs now or risk getting punished. Grabs dont help much as SP said... I still Dash cancel anyways for some reason, and we still can't mess with bombs >_>...

I guess buffing throws would be cool but it would still just be adding another high risk/reward move to links moveset. When really he has enough moves that are good but easy to punish. Heres a list of things that might help that are POSSIBLE to do.

Ftilt KB buff makeing it slightly weaker than fsmash.

faster bomb plucking?

FASTER ARROWS. Me, SP, and zxeon made a tweaked a code for it awhile back it was awsome... they are pretty much the ****tyest projectiles in the game.

Getting rid of the boomerang regrab animation.

Throw tweaks...

Damage tweaks... examples Bair 11>13 Spinattack 12>16 Nair 6-10 > 9-12 (these moves have the stupidest percents for a char like link)

Thats all I got ... Hes pretty punishable with meh projectiles, gimpable recovery and an adverage combo game. Yet still pretty viable some extra boost to make up for the nerfs would be nice though. Since even before the nerfs he was on the lower end of the chars.
Getting rid of the stupid stuff (dtilt spike and pogo dair) and giveing him something to make him a more well rounded char sounds good to me.

 

[Swordplay]

Cape told me his run attack damage was fixed... It was some weird priority glitch that made it always do 10% (toon link damage) so thats good but its not a buff its a fix.
With dair not being so insane now link took a major blow to his tech chase game. We kinda need to use falling nairs now or risk getting punished. Grabs dont help much as SP said... I still Dash cancel anyways for some reason, and we still can't mess with bombs >_>...

I guess buffing throws would be cool but it would still just be adding another high risk/reward move to links moveset. When really he has enough moves that are good but easy to punish. Heres a list of things that might help that are POSSIBLE to do.

Ftilt KB buff makeing it slightly weaker than fsmash.

faster bomb plucking?

FASTER ARROWS. Me, SP, and zxeon made a tweaked a code for it awhile back it was awsome... they are pretty much the ****tyest projectiles in the game.

Getting rid of the boomerang regrab animation.

Throw tweaks...

Damage tweaks... examples Bair 11>13 Spinattack 12>16 Nair 6-10 > 9-12

Thats all I got ... Hes pretty punishable with meh projectiles, gimpable recovery and an adverage combo game. Yet still pretty viable some extra boost to make up for the nerfs would be nice though. Since even before the nerfs he was on the lower end of the chars.
Getting rid of the stupid stuff (dtilt spike and pogo dair) and giveing him something to make him a more well rounded char sounds good to me.

I am trying to think of things that would work with Links moveset.....Hence, moves that set up other moves or moves that have set ups into them but are bad.

F-tilt has setups into it........Lots of things seem to fall into pivot boost situations in which F-tilt is the natural finisher.

And Bombs are NEEDED BADLY as they setup into basically his entire move set.

I already stated my opinion on throw tweaks.......

Arrows were LOL......They were SO OP. You can look into them but OMG.......Don't increase them absurdly. Extensive testing showed they were too **** to be implemented.......Were talking like ABUSIVE ****. like near FALCO LASER **** level (And the Charging sound didn't match with the charging speed. Though....I'm sure this can be fixed with file replacement music hacks......It was still annoying to those who could hear minor Sound effect flaws)

Everything else is Meh.......

 

[matt4300]

I am trying to think of things that would work with Links moveset.....Hence, moves that set up other moves or moves that have set ups into them but are bad.

F-tilt has setups into it........Lots of things seem to fall into pivot boost situations in which F-tilt is the natural finisher.

And Bombs are NEEDED BADLY as they setup into basically his entire move set.

I already stated my opinion on throw tweaks.......

Arrows were LOL......They were SO OP. You can look into them but OMG.......Don't increase them absurdly. Extensive testing showed they were too **** to be implemented.......(And the Charging sound didn't match with the charging speed. Though....I'm sure this can be fixed with file replacement music hacks......It was still annoying to those who could hear minor Sound effect flaws

Everything else is Meh.......

Ok so basicly bombs and ftilt? I'm all for both of them. Arrows would seriously help his spaceing ... and wtf dude the final speed we came up with was perfect... we did LOTS of testing and pretty much everyone could beat his projectile spam ... it was sad... you dont remeber the LOL moments with pit and such. It was FFFFAAR from OP ... and ehh... still with that tiny charge sound syncing problem.

 

[Swordplay]

Ok so basicly bombs and ftilt? I'm all for both of them. Arrows would seriously help his spaceing ... and wtf dude the final speed we came up with was perfect... we did LOTS of testing and pretty much everyone could beat his projectile spam ... it was sad... you dont remeber the LOL moments with pit and such. It was FFFFAAR from OP ... and ehh... still with that tiny charge sound syncing problem.

Yea but that was before Link received his major overhaul including a better dash attack/zair/fair/spin/everything else attack that made him ****. I'm just wondering if THAT arrow speed would need retesting......(Since Link changed so much)

If we ever get Bombs I'm all for arrows. Because you can throw a Bomb and Quick Charge an arrow to hit somebody during hitstun for the ****. It would be sweet.

By the way matt4300. I played B+ with Rain last night and my wifi WORKED. I'm in the process of moving to a new apartment so 1 more week and we have have a blast...

 

[zxeon]

I'm not holding my breath for bombs but that would be ideal. I did work on the Bow and arrow mod and it had a great balance of charge speed and non-spamability.

 

[matt4300]

Yea but that was before Link received his major overhaul including a better dash attack/zair/fair/spin/everything else attack that made him ****. I'm just wondering if THAT arrow speed would need retesting......(Since Link changed so much)

If we ever get Bombs I'm all for arrows. Because you can throw a Bomb and Quick Charge an arrow to hit somebody during hitstun for the ****. It would be sweet.

By the way matt4300. I played B+ with Rain last night and my wifi WORKED. I'm in the process of moving to a new apartment so 1 more week and we have have a blast...

I seriously dought anything we do to link would make him too good... but yeh that arrow speed up was just to make them usefull... as of rihgt now i NEVER use them. Theres always a better move to use. This would make arrows less punishable/Get more damage quicker/and a straighter trajectory with less charge time... But still maintain all there original uses.(wich was like 1 lol)

so...

Ftilt kb buff

Arrow speed up

and BOMBS whenever it becomes possible...

that would be PERFECT ... and fill the ****ty gaps in his game. without buffing him all that much. The bomb would be the biggest buff. Arrows would still remain situaltional and ftilt would only be tweaked a bit.

@o@ awsome... I can't wait to do some bowser vs ike matches again and see how they have changed. 1 week to go...

 

[Finns7]

Ok Link did get nerfed and he could use something, first of all though dtilt wasnt spammy, im happy it got fixed but if you played a average player you'll die if you spam it......

Anyway, we should make arrows trip 1/2 or 1/3 of the time like in bbrawl, it would help with grabs and techasing. I also think they should do more percent along with some other moves.

Swordplay where are you going???

Idc about bombs they already have uses to me its all about prediction. If the animation to getting back the gale rang was faster it would be better.

Honestly guys some **** is just a weakness of link, arrows tripping and minor percent increases are fine in my eyes, Spin attack percent should go up for sure though 12 lol.

 

[Swordplay]

I'm still staying in bloomington. Sorry finnz. not moving to Ohio......


I'll be the first to say that I HATED tripping arrows in BB. But maybe you play Link differently than I do. I don't play Link as a tech chaser anymore......that style died with increased ARL to dair. Besides, I think link is to slow to be a Tech chaser. He'll never be able to catch up to his tripped opponents, arrows will trip them but they may be to far away. I'd rather have speed than power. What speed does it force opponents into your midranged game instead of you approaching to the desired spacing you want (Which I think is important).

With Dair at a higher ARL finnz. I cant think what move you would use to techchase besides Pivot grabs which are punishable.....Nair (the best choice) or dash attack which often is predicted and punished.

That's why I want bombs. They would do the exact thing you want arrows to do with tripping except the effect of hit stun is of much greater benefit and use to Link. Link has more moves to benefit these situations than techchase situations.



I've mentioned this before to Matt4300 so I'll say it here. The way BB made people trip was increasing power (The angle makes them trip if power is increased). If you increase the power of arrows, they won't force get ups anymore.
THIS WOULD PROBABLY HURT MORE THAN IT WOULD HELP.

 

[Finns7]

Oh so trip means no force, nvm well w/e but just so u kno he can tech chase ;p cus of tether grabs, you just got to be safe or else ur getting ***** hard.

 

[matt4300]

Ok Link did get nerfed and he could use something, first of all though dtilt wasnt spammy, im happy it got fixed but if you played a average player you'll die if you spam it......

Anyway, we should make arrows trip 1/2 or 1/3 of the time like in bbrawl, it would help with grabs and techasing. I also think they should do more percent along with some other moves.

Swordplay where are you going???

Idc about bombs they already have uses to me its all about prediction. If the animation to getting back the gale rang was faster it would be better.

Honestly guys some **** is just a weakness of link, arrows tripping and minor percent increases are fine in my eyes, Spin attack percent should go up for sure though 12 lol.

THANK YOU finaly someone agrees with me on the laughable 12 percent spin attack... ITS SOOOOOO punishable .. wtf 12 percent **** that.

 

[Demacrez]

Yeah, Link has taken a pretty big nerf now that we have to think of a new metagame for him.

I actually use his F-Air, Boomerang, B-Air, N-Air, and F-Smash more than any other attack. XD Though it doesn't mean I don't use a bit of a mix up game such as F-Tilt, Bombs, and Spin Attack.

I usually picture Link to be a ground to low aerial style character with a mix up of both sword and projectile usage. Making him a grab game type would actually ruin him since tether characters are a bad high risk/low reward features especially for Link. I've always picture him to be the inbetween guy; not too powerful such as Ganondorf and not too fast as of Marth. He was always the one with fair speed and power.

I say give Link's arrows a bit of KB with a short hitstun as a perfect form of gimping. That or stopping power that would actually force a character to be pushed back instead of irritation. They need something than what they're at now.

(Bombs? You want them? They're yours my friend!) 5 bucks to whomever can guess where that's from.

Bombs, for right now, are not on the top end of the list. I remember hearing that the WBR don't have the ability to edit item props yet so I won't worry about them just yet. If anything, request for a faster bomb pull.

Give back his Spin Attack damage. XD

 

[Sulfur]

Bombs? You want them? They're yours my friend!) 5 bucks to whomever can guess where that's from.

I'm gonna guess TF2? (Probably wrong)

 

[BG3]

Why exactly was Link nerfed so much? He didn't have to many stupid moves to begin with. Sorry if this has already been asked.

 

[PKNintendo]

(bombs? You Want Them? They're Yours My Friend!)

!!!

Morshu!!!
Xd

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHomQc9Puqc

 

[Demacrez]

Correct!

10l Charizards.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Come back when your a little mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm RICHER!

 

[Shadic]

Why exactly was Link nerfed so much? He didn't have to many stupid moves to begin with. Sorry if this has already been asked.

His downtilt was a pretty easy tilt. Then again, it didn't have a lot of range in the first place, so the only people you could hit with it were unfortunate heavies and idiots, but whatever.

Oh, and his Dair was "Too good" for the small amount of lag it had. It's not a spectacular killing move, either.

 

[matt4300]

His downtilt was a pretty easy tilt. Then again, it didn't have a lot of range in the first place, so the only people you could hit with it were unfortunate heavies and idiots, but whatever.

Oh, and his Dair was "Too good" for the small amount of lag it had. It's not a spectacular killing move, either.

Hey man I would trade them both for the buffs (I hope) we are about to get... Faster arrows, Ftilt buffs... (spin attack damage PLEASE )
But yeh both those hurt him quite a bit... the dair nerf T_T but i see why it was done...

 

[MagmarFire]

Still, if you think about it, the decreased ALR for Dair helps promote aiming for a pseudo-autocancel like in vBrawl. But then again, why they didn't just nerf the damage and/or knockback of the move slightly is beyond me. Same goes for Dtilt, for those who were worried about its "LOL OP"ness.

The Dtilt nerf, however, isn't as bad as I thought. The sweetspot is still rather lenient, and even if it doesn't sweetspot, at mid percentages, it still combos into Fair or whatever. I'm not sure about its hitstun, but I'm assuming it's about the same as a spike.

 

[Finns7]

Ok no KB on arrows, you cant get force getups then, also I understand the nerf to dair, even though at high level play you can get punished.

One thing though, in vbrawl you had ways to autocancel it if you did it from the ledge or low platform, now with gravity you cant do it from the ledge and you have to double jump to auto it. Idk what to say about link, I will come back with more input later today maybe.

 

[rageagainst]

hey haven't played B+ yet, how is Link in B+. Played link extensively in melee, sad that he ended up mid tier and it was an uphill battle to compete, so I dropped him. Was excited for him in Brawl but he ended up being LITERALLY the worst character in the game.

I hear he was nerfed in B+... why? Is he atleast mid tierish material?

 

[Demacrez]

hey haven't played B+ yet, how is Link in B+. Played link extensively in melee, sad that he ended up mid tier and it was an uphill battle to compete, so I dropped him. Was excited for him in Brawl but he ended up being LITERALLY the worst character in the game.

I hear he was nerfed in B+... why? Is he atleast mid tierish material?

No, he was amazing in the last several builds but now they (the WBR) decided to nerf a few things because they believe he was too good. The D-Tilt spike I can understand since that move was... kinda overpowered but not very good to actually pull off. Now he has an increase in aerial lag so his D-Air is a bit slower and others are a tad slower.

 

[Shadic]

He was never amazing, he just had two pretty good moves.

 

[Demacrez]

Compared to vBrawl, he was amazing.