Link+ [Updated 10-8 - Farewell F-Air, we hardly knew ye]

[MagmarFire]

And in the hands of the right player, he can be amazing. Very much so. But that could be because there are quite a few people who don't expect much out of him, and then BAM, they see his true potential.

 

[matt4300]

Compared to vBrawl, he was amazing.

Compared to other chars *COUGH* ToonLink *cough* He still wasnt very good... Id say before the nerfs he was about low mid tier or mabye mid mid tier... dont know what he is now ...

 

[MagmarFire]

Apparently, the WBR thought he was higher. Otherwise, did he deserve the nerfs? :/

 

[PKNintendo]

His nerfs were well warranted though. Only one of them imo.

Dair nerf, since it's speed was ridiculous.
But why was dtilt nerfed?

 

[Shadic]

He had two moves that they basically made... What could be considered too good. There's better moves on better characters though, which is the annoying thing.

 

[Mumble]

Apparently, the WBR thought he was higher. Otherwise, did he deserve the nerfs? :/

Eh, don't think he deserved them. :/
Kinda like...*cough*..Marth...*cough*
10sadfaces

 

[MagmarFire]

Eh, we'll find out what will happen in time. After all, if it comes across that Link suffers dearly enough to be considered garbage, which I'm sure we've heard enough of already, he'll no doubt get the nerfs reversed or be compensated with more buffs. If we managed with vBrawl, we'll certainly manage here.

Besides, a sweetspotted Zair > sweetspotted Nair > offstage Fair equals a whole bunch of ****. At least on CPUs, but I'm kind of limited in the regard of offline opponents.

 

[matt4300]

Eh, we'll find out what will happen in time. After all, if it comes across that Link suffers dearly enough to be considered garbage, which I'm sure we've heard enough of already, he'll no doubt get the nerfs reversed or be compensated with more buffs. If we managed with vBrawl, we'll certainly manage here.

Besides, a sweetspotted Zair > sweetspotted Nair > offstage Fair equals a whole bunch of ****. At least on CPUs, but I'm kind of limited in the regard of offline opponents.

Pretty sure hes getting buffs as we speak... pretty sure... pretty kinda guessing. I hope so... arrow speed buff is the onlything I heard shannus was working on... Though the code is done; Was done by me, zxeon, and SP. Also mabye ftilt buffs since no one really said they didnet like it... I'm still holding my breath on the spin attack damage... Though cape has outright told me NO a few times lol.. When I think of pikas thunder (17) ZZS >B (16) kirbys hammer (23) and the fact that most attacks like it can even be used in the air and off stage and are much less punishable, and more powerfull... It just erks infuriates me. On a side note ikes eruption also does pitafull damage.

 

[MagmarFire]

Then why the heck doesn't he listen to the logic?

Maybe he just hates Link. XD

 

[Swordplay]

Then why the heck doesn't he listen to the logic?

Maybe he just hates Link. XD

Naaa......


If ANYTHING Spin attack is very boarderline fair (best move probably right now). Link's spin attack gave his D-smash no use what so ever.....
If spin attack were to continue to be buffed, it might polarize him making other moves also obsolete.

If anything....D-smash should do more damage than spin attack......at least then the move would have SOME purpose.....



Shanus is VERY logical.......Trust me...

 

[Demacrez]

So have Spin Attack have good KB while D-Smash have good damage racking?

 

[MagmarFire]

Naaa......
Shanus is VERY logical.......Trust me...

I was talking about Cape. XD

But...Dsmash isn't that useless, in my opinion. There are some instances where it links beautifully from a craq-walked Bair.

 

[Swordplay]

I was talking about Cape. XD

But...Dsmash isn't that useless, in my opinion. There are some instances where it links beautifully from a craq-walked Bair.

Sorry I should have read the whole discussion more closely.......

Cape is logical too.....He freaking plays Link.....

Do you Craq walk into D-smash of F-tilt more often? Maybe its just me but my VB instincts tell me F-tilt is superior to D-smash in craq walk situations......and I THINK the same applies here...... Hell right now, I craq walk into F-smash more than D-smash now......

Thats why I am saying the F-tilt would help but its not necessary like Bombs IMO.....(there will still be interchangable purposes to the move)

So have Spin Attack have good KB while D-Smash have good damage racking?

Thats how I would make the two moves Unique.......Though....there are other ideas that are probably better

 

[Shadic]

Can't you jab cancel into a Dsmash better than an UpB? Not to mention the fact that a Dsmash is less punishable, especially on shield.

I don't see the issue.

 

[Swordplay]

True Shadic......But only because it is easier to slap the C-stick down than it is to coordinate your fingers to do up-b. I believe Spin attack actually comes out faster in terms of frame data.....However, even I still use D-smash from time to time, for the sole reason of it being safer.....and because of VB instinct.

With proper DI though (increased gravity too).... you can avoid d-smash....if mid/heavies SDI down, they can sometimes get a shield off before the D-smash comes (I've done it before though I think it has to be frame perfect)......This means at high levels of play, D-smash won't be as good as you initially thought. This does not rule out the usefulness of the move though, You just have to mix it up more.

Though I still use D-smash at mid%'s where I can't kill yet or when its to high to legit combo (this is where I mix it up D-smash and grab here and other things at other %'s).....To me, D-smash has become more of a damage racking tool while Spin attack is now the finisher for jab cancels...anyways thats my logic on D-smash so that is why I would like it to see go that direction.

 

[MagmarFire]

Sorry I should have read the whole discussion more closely.......

Cape is logical too.....He freaking plays Link.....

Do you Craq walk into D-smash of F-tilt more often? Maybe its just me but my VB instincts tell me F-tilt is superior to D-smash in craq walk situations......and I THINK the same applies here...... Hell right now, I craq walk into F-smash more than D-smash now......

For me, it depends on the percentage; for me, it's good at lower percentages to use Dsmash because the opponent won't fly very high, which allows him to combo into another aerial or maybe an Utilt/Usmash if the percentage is low enough. Ftilting the opponent would likely end the combo earlier than desired because, if I recall correctly, it launches the opponent up and out of range, which is a terrible distance setup for Link--too high to follow up with Zair (depending on the opponent's weight and hurtbox size) and too far to the side to follow up with another aerial before hitstun ends.

And just so everyone knows, my comments about Cape weren't really intended to be malicious.

 

[rageagainst]

Eh, we'll find out what will happen in time. After all, if it comes across that Link suffers dearly enough to be considered garbage, which I'm sure we've heard enough of already, he'll no doubt get the nerfs reversed or be compensated with more buffs. If we managed with vBrawl, we'll certainly manage here.

Besides, a sweetspotted Zair > sweetspotted Nair > offstage Fair equals a whole bunch of ****. At least on CPUs, but I'm kind of limited in the regard of offline opponents.

lol only the insane managed in vbrawl. You don't play competitively with a bottom tier character. PERIOD.

 

[MagmarFire]

I stand corrected, then.

But the rest of my argument still stands.

 

[Swordplay]

Sorry for this lengthy post.....Some of my analysis is my opinion ans may be slightly off but I'm curious as to your thoughts on the topic and current uses of F-smash/D-smash/F-tilt out of craq walk. Hopefully, you'll read and respond.

Well I think F-smash is the most rewarding right now.....But it makes sense since its also the most risky option. Link player must mindgame when to use the 2nd slash or not and its not often safe on shield.

D-smash I guess has its purposes too. I never really tried to use D-smash in the way you suggested Magmar but I will certainly try it. It sounds very appealing though in my play style, I usually craq walk into finishers and not so much combo starters. I will defiantly look into this and see if I can improve myself based off of your suggestion Magmar

F-tilt is an amazing move to be used out of craq walk if it ever did anything. It may have a slow start up but it is extremely safe on shield and the least punishable of all 3 popular options. Also, its slow startup has been found to be almost beneficial at times. It is a great mind game tool for timing which fits right in to what craq walk does for Link. It has a large sweeping hitbox that covers a lot of ground as well which is important because Link has lots of range but he has few moves with sweeping hitbox's like that of Marth's Fair or TL's Bair. If you haven't noticed, those moves are very important to their respective character. Link's will not be as important due to poor speed by comparison but for that very reason, it should be a good finishing move that just happens to have a large sweeping hitbox for higher % chance of hitting. The poor speed of this move is often offset by proper craq walks anyway and often can be great for surprise attacks and approaches as seen by VB with Legan. Not to mention, large sweeping hitbox's can deal with DI and positioning slightly better as they cover more range. In my opinion, this is important to craq walks as often your opponent has some DI or mobility before you get in range of your next attack.


Basically F-tilt in this situation is extremely advantageous, it seems to have everything link needs in it except for the RAW power to do anything as craq walk makes up for speed. I even see some Link players try to use this move as a poke......I don't know why but I'm sure more power=more launch=higher shield stun=better poke....Surprisingly, this is what I believe Legan did a lot in VB. It was a great surprise attack and a pretty safe Poke. I'm sure that this aspect would improve giving Link's a little more mind game versatility.

O I almost forgot....Craq walking can be used for tech chasing his tech chase game.

With all that said, I still think that bombs and potentially the arrow speed might be more important I mean arrow speed looks amazing on paper as well It gives link a more spammable long range projectile to force approaches, Arrows get stronger faster, Tech chasing, keeps force get up.........but basically you need to test anything implemented...... EVERYTHING. NO GUARANTEES BY SOMETHING THAT JUST LOOKS GOOD ON PAPER.

The reason why I question this unlike anything I have ever posted before is because in the new age of Dash Dance, It is hard to determine how the future of Craq walk may play out. As we develop our metagame, it is hard to say how many of these things that look good on paper, will actually play out in Brawl+

Right now I think bombs are the most important, I've tested arrow speed so I know thats good. F-tilt would have to be 3rd on the priority list.

EDIT
LOL LEGAN I CHECKED YOU STATUS I KNOW YOUR READING THIS. FEEL FREE TO CORRECT ME


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NAME SEARCHER!!!!!!!!!

 

[zxeon]

UpB comes out Frame 11. I'm pretty sure that's slower than all of his other kill options, and slower than most other characters in his weight class.

 

[Legan]

I agreed with everything so I didnt feel the need to correct anything. And excuuuuuuse me princess for name searching, but it comes in handy sometimes. If you ever need the answer to something, just name drop like everyone else.

 

[Swordplay]

LOL I love you legan.......(No I wasn't stalking, it was just coincidence.....and don't worry I do it to sometimes )

UpB comes out Frame 11. I'm pretty sure that's slower than all of his other kill options, and slower than most other characters in his weight class.

Your correct for VB speed but Spin attack was speed up.......Let me enlighten you as to how slow Links kill moves are.....(good thing they are powerful now.......)

Here is some VB frame data for Links ground kill moves

D Smash
9 front
21 back

F Smash
15

F Smash 2
12

U Smash
10,25,40

U tilt
8

F tilt
15

Spin Attack
On the Ground 11
In the Air 8


I also dropped in jabs and grabs as Many people jab cancel into kill moves or throw into an air kill move.....

Jab
7

Jab 2
6

Jab 3
6

Grab
11

Dash Grab
14




With Spin attacks speed up by 4 frames I believe....It is currently the fastest It is Frame 8-7 right now I believe since it was speed up approximately 4 frames if I remember. None of Links other moves are speed up.


Source: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228233

 

[MagmarFire]

With Spin attacks speed up by 4 frames I believe....It is currently the fastest It is Frame 8-7 right now I believe since it was speed up approximately 4 frames if I remember. None of Links other moves are speed up.

Unless you count Dair and Uair ALR.

But that falls under cooldown and not start-up, does it...? Hmm.

 

[Swordplay]

Unless you count Dair and Uair ALR.

But that falls under cooldown and not start-up, does it...? Hmm.

that doesn't count....cool down

I dont want to say too much about this subject anymore (not because I can't but because I think it's been thouroughly discussed at this point).....but I will say this.......Matt4300 and I discussed and noticed a lot of VB Link players don't use spin attack as much as they should because of the bad REP it got in VB. Do not be discouraged to use SPIN ATTACK

 

[MagmarFire]

Especially since Jab Canceling into one is complete sexual assault. =3

 

[Demacrez]

that doesn't count....cool down

I dont want to say too much about this subject anymore (not because I can't but because I think it's been thouroughly discussed at this point).....but I will say this.......Matt4300 and I discussed and noticed a lot of VB Link players don't use spin attack as much as they should because of the bad REP it got in VB. Do not be discouraged to use SPIN ATTACK

I realized this too. In vBrawl, I never actually used Spin Attack since it had weak KB and bad damage. I only ever used it as a finishing move when the person had TOO much damage.

Now, in Brawl+, I use it on a frequent basis such as early kills or GTFO maneuver. I sometimes use it as a combo. It's become so much useful than what it was in vBrawl.

 

[PKNintendo]

Honestly what was Sakurai thinking when he designed the spin attack?

I am a current fan of the spin attack in Brawl+.

 

[matt4300]

Wow, me and SP thought everyone was gonna say spin attack= noob or something to that effect. It really is amazing now... You guys should have seen it when me and shannus were working on it... It killed at 100. It was hilarious.

But yeh, its really good for alot of things now... edge gaurding, killing, JCing, finishing combos, AND belive it or not tech chaseing!!! Think about it its his fastest gtfo move with all round range. It kills and has 2 hurt boxes. OH and you dont have to DC it at all! You can just run and throw out an Upb. Its also safe on sheild for alot of chars.

USE SPIN ATTACK!!!

 

[Swordplay]

Spin attack is the saving grace.......BUT Safe on shields is probably the one thing it is not.......It's still punishable......But absolutly necessary................


Spin attack is a must...........Spin attack is the saving grace.......Link is not viable without it but Spin attack dwarfs his other moves right now........

Here is a MASTERCARD commercial.


Using projectiles to piss off your opponent.......................................................................................................15 LOLZ
Using the Sword and Zair against characters who have trouble with range or are easy to hit............................................. 25 LOLZ
Using Link's new Sexyness and Old AT's to ****.................................................................................................50 LOLZ





Edit: Just to be clear, When I said spin attack drawfs his other moves, I was trying to get at that spin attack isn't that great of a move, just that by comparrison his other moves arn't good.
For EVERYTHING else, there's Spin Attack.........................................................................................................Priceless

 

[PKNintendo]

Spin attack is the saving grace.......BUT Safe on shields is probably the one thing it is not.......It's still punishable......But absolutly necessary................


Spin attack is a must...........Spin attack is the saving grace.......Link is not viable without it but Spin attack dwarfs his other moves right now........

Here is a MASTERCARD commercial.


Using projectiles to piss off your opponent.......................................................................................................15 LOLZ
Using the Sword and Zair against characters who have trouble with range or are easy to hit............................................. 25 LOLZ
Using Link's new Sexyness and Old AT's to ****.................................................................................................50 LOLZ

For EVERYTHING else, there's Spin Attack.........................................................................................................Priceless

You sir have currently won the internet.

 

[Shadic]

I played some Melee yesterday, and I forgot how AMAZING the Spinattack is in that. I mean, dear god. I could kill of the edge at 50%.

 

[Finns7]

Ok guys

Im not feeling brawl+ right now, 1. they give characters "fixes" to make there moves autoconnect, chars that dont need the buffs to be viable.

But LINK they take away his dtilt and dair which arnt OP or dumb in high level play, if you spam dtilt or think your gonna get 0 to death combos your wrong and dair you could still of gotten punished. Now I wouldnt mind if OTHER chars questionable moves and abilities were removed but nah thre still there.

Is it right that meta can dair link after getting hit with his upsmash (fist hit and DIing out) O_o or coutering, jumping, mach ****** his jab jab combos? Guess what guys once people get the link matchup more down they'll realize jab jab upb isnt legit or jab jab anything for that matter.

I think the wbr should seriously think about some of the buffs givein to other chars or "fixes". Some moves arnt meant to be auto, but hell since other characters get "fixed" who dont need it btw why cant Link get his upsmash auto or bair where the first hit freezes you and your set in stone?

Link cant really combo light characters, yet most light characters can combo him to hell. Are we considering character specific hitstun? I mean this project could of prob been done by now, couple months ago I considered link hellla viable now its >_> because he has some serious counters.

 

[MagmarFire]

The Dtilt nerf really isn't too bad in retrospect; it just requires you to actually space it correctly, and it's quite lenient in that regard. (Not that it doesn't suck that he got the nerfs in the first place because I really would like the nerfs reversed just as much as the next Link main.)

I think character-specific hitstun is being considered for Luigi. Everyone else, though, I'm not sure.

 

[matt4300]

Ok guys

Im not feeling brawl+ right now, 1. they give characters "fixes" to make there moves autoconnect, chars that dont need the buffs to be viable.

But LINK they take away his dtilt and dair which arnt OP or dumb in high level play, if you spam dtilt or think your gonna get 0 to death combos your wrong and dair you could still of gotten punished. Now I wouldnt mind if OTHER chars questionable moves and abilities were removed but nah thre still there.

Is it right that meta can dair link after getting hit with his upsmash (fist hit and DIing out) O_o or coutering, jumping, mach ****** his jab jab combos? Guess what guys once people get the link matchup more down they'll realize jab jab upb isnt legit or jab jab anything for that matter.

I think the wbr should seriously think about some of the buffs givein to other chars or "fixes". Some moves arnt meant to be auto, but hell since other characters get "fixed" who dont need it btw why cant Link get his upsmash auto or bair where the first hit freezes you and your set in stone?

Link cant really combo light characters, yet most light characters can combo him to hell. Are we considering character specific hitstun? I mean this project could of prob been done by now, couple months ago I considered link hellla viable now its >_> because he has some serious counters.

I wasent gonna say anything but now that a reputable link main did I'm gonna agree. Basicly anytime me, sp, or shadic ask for link buffs or ask questions about link everyones like "well whats finnz think?" I'm glad your as irked as we all are. If the second jab popped them up a smidge more and/or ended a smidge faster we might have gaurenteed JCs. That and, other buffs we have been talking about recently.
LOL the only chars that need there hitstun fixed are.... Luigi, Falcon, Marth (if they make him lighter) kirby and squirtle mabye...

 

[Finns7]

Imo light characters who can combo prob dominate this game.

OH MY GAW you guys please do something with bowsers physics or w/e, I should be able to upthrow upair him at mid percents. Im saying should because I can do it on Falcon, snake, dk and other heavies, His lightwieght does not make any sense.

My stance is I want everything to go back how it used to be without all these stupid buffs, this games starting to feel like mugen, idk if its from my short mia's or w/e but somethings really need to go. But since tey prob wont Link needs help.

 

[matt4300]

Imo light characters who can combo prob dominate this game.

OH MY GAW you guys please do something with bowsers physics or w/e, I should be able to upthrow upair him at mid percents. Im saying should because I can do it on Falcon, snake, dk and other heavies, His lightwieght does not make any sense.

My stance is I want everything to go back how it used to be without all these stupid buffs, this games starting to feel like mugen, idk if its from my short mia's or w/e but somethings really need to go. But since tey prob wont Link needs help.

Dude do you play bowser??? you do realise that he is one of the few (mabey only) chars that has no safe way to get back to the ground... He would get wrecked constantly by every char if he was heavier (more hitstun) And as bowser is my secondary; I REALLY dont want him to get worse.

And I agree to a certain extent about mugen feeling.... but its only stupid stuff that feels shotty like lucarios up-b not freefalling or falcons stupid amounts of hitstun that makes it feel this way. Basicly stuff that feels like a glitch lol. But, I fully support buffs, and nerfs that feel right and help/**** bad/good chars. (OH and nesses and ivys infin up-bs also felt shotty and mugen esque lol)

 

[Swordplay]

NINJA:

Dude do you play bowser??? you do realise that he is one of the few (mabey only) chars that has no safe way to get back to the ground... He would get wrecked constantly by every char if he was heavier (more hitstun) And as bowser is my secondary; I REALLY dont want him to get worse.

Yea Matt4300 and I were like WTF with bowser today in our routine Ike V Bowser matches. Once I went Snake V Bowser, Bowser literally did not touch the stage except for landing lag for over 100% of juggling every stock.

stuff

Really Finnz...I'm not surprised that Jab Jab up-b isn't as legit as I once thought. I've never had a problem with it before because most of my opponents do not know the Link matchup but I think if DI'd correctly, you can avoid the JC. Not only that, Frame 7 jab is just terrible.......

Just to make a quick note of this, on SOME characters it looks like you can DI the jab to avoid a legit JC. I'm afraid of having the 2nd jab pop up more as people might DI up and jump away.

Link is really making me angry right now......

Link's moveset is to SLOW and VUNERABLE to be a spacing character.
Link's moveset is to PUNISHABLE and SLOW to be a tech chase character.
Link's moveset is to TERRIBLE to be a combo character.
Link's AT's do NOTHING to benefit him.
Link's projectiles are to CRAPPY to be a camping character.

AND

Link's offstage game is to LOLZ live very long, which inherently hurts his gimp game.
(If you haven't noticed his best edge guard techniques are onstage for a reason (Spin attack/zair edge))

How do you carve a metagame out of that??? The one thing Link has going for him is Range but in B+ RANGE<SPEED. In VB it was RANGE>SPEED. It seems being extremely disjointed won't help to much in B+ when the game is so fast that characters can get inside easily. In Essence, Link still has to semi-approach to get into camping range which is BULL because the opponent can approach so much easily and faster. It's a huge weakness that he can't overcome.

This explains why Spin attack is used ALL the time by some people. Its nearly his fastest move and while it may be punishable, so is his entire melee move set to some extent.


It seems the only way for link to be ANY good is to make his projectiles absolutely ****. Boomerang is good. But arrows and bombs suck hard. Without modifications to these moves, Link will NEVER be able to properly spam and space properly......That is why Link will never be good without a prop code to tweak bombs......



Tell you what annoys me, the lenght Link throws his boomerang. In melee it went SO FAR. In Brawl, Link throws it like its a heavy rock.......
LINK HAS NO RANGE ON HIS PROJECTILES FOR A CHARACTER WHO IS SUPPOSE TO SPACE. ANYONE CAN OUTCAMP HIM

 

[Demacrez]

Rant

I agree. Link feels clunky in this new build after playing him extensively. It's like he's been taken to the back of the bus and beaten with a bloody bat. The only way to combo well with him is if the person is stupid and doesn't know how to DI.

 

[Finns7]

Link should strive if the user utilzies his projectiles and sword together, he is not martha and he is not samus he is link,

You said it was lag and no offense matty but your not a pro elite bowser, unless you are? I dont know no offesne. My point about bowser is he got buffs and he can still get buffs if neeeeded but tottally making him light like that doesnt make sense to me, I mean look at link he gets comboed easily too and he doesnt have a combo breaker like bowserLDFJla;jflalfj;aklfjl;ajfkaj

GUYS is it possible to make upb come oos faster im talking extreme fast cus that would help him but.

Anyone back on topic when I play bowsers I usually win based off the combo aspect and how he cant touch the ground, but what scares me is if I play a PRO status bowser who knows how to get out of my tricks knows the matchups to all my characters, is a trully skilled player plus SA on crawl. It could be a different story a much closer match.

Idk Im with the idea of giving him something else, nothign OP but something esle and having it make sense bowser was never floaty in any of his games.

 

[matt4300]

Link should strive if the user utilzies his projectiles and sword together, he is not martha and he is not samus he is link,

You said it was lag and no offense matty but your not a pro elite bowser, unless you are? I dont know no offesne. My point about bowser is he got buffs and he can still get buffs if neeeeded but tottally making him light like that doesnt make sense to me, I mean look at link he gets comboed easily too and he doesnt have a combo breaker like bowserLDFJla;jflalfj;aklfjl;ajfkaj

GUYS is it possible to make upb come oos faster im talking extreme fast cus that would help him but.

Anyone back on topic when I play bowsers I usually win based off the combo aspect and how he cant touch the ground, but what scares me is if I play a PRO status bowser who knows how to get out of my tricks knows the matchups to all my characters, is a trully skilled player plus SA on crawl. It could be a different story a much closer match.

Idk Im with the idea of giving him something else, nothign OP but something esle and having it make sense bowser was never floaty in any of his games.

None taken ... I'm not a Pro elite bowser... but seriously how many of those are there? I don't care how 1337 your bowser is theres only a few ways to get back to the ground and none of them are safe... But as you say in that post you win bowser matches becuase he cant touch the ground... and you want to make that EVEN WORSE... you can see how this would **** bowser in more than 1 way against every single char in the game... JIGGZ anyone?

oh and lol faster up-b XD dude it would be like... "hmmmm... what should i use here.. SPIN ATTACK!!! @o@" and the opponent would be like " ok ill just try this move and..." "SPIN ATTACK!!!!"

opponent: (ToT) >>>>><====3


Oh also in that snake bowser match me and SP did... its not like i was 4 stocked. I think I was 2 stocked... But wow I couldnt get back the the stage because of projectiles and If i tried to recover high I got morared (because bowser cant air dodge them due to his size) and if I did manage to air dodge one right when I hit the Ground I got thrown back off stage for more Gimps and punishment. I mean bowsers ENTIRE game is defense he has no approach options, NONE (dont say fire breath) so snake ...who has the best defense in the game AND a great projectile game AND a great spaceing game due to tilts AND a great killing game... man you know where this is going ... bowser is ****ed. Like hard...