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Link Social Thread

Hylian

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I got 9th at this tournament: http://smashboards.com/threads/334196/#post-15337608

Lost to Kirk and Vro(both very close recorded sets), learned a ton and had a lot of fun/got a ton of matches recorded.

Literally every single person I played at the tournament(and people watching me) would say "Wow I didn't know link could do that!" or "That is ****ing awesome" lol. Sethlon has been at my house for a few days and we are recording matches plus I have the matches from the tournaments so I will have a lot of videos coming up shortly. I went 100% link and felt like I had the potential to get top 3 I just got outplayed. Probably going to be going 100% link from now on.
 

Sarix

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I'm looking forward to playing P:M Link more after playing so much Guilty Gear and Blazblue I'm hoping some zoning techniques will transfer.
Toolbox zoners are so much fun and I'm liking Link's potential trap zoning game and pressure options.
 

BryE

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Hey guys, I just started playing Link the other night and thought he felt super good.

Any lesser-known tricks I should start working on?
If you aren't familiar with it already, you should use ledge-drop > tether regrab > ledge-drop fair. Works really well against people who don't know too much about Link's ledge game. You gain invincibility frames from re-grabbing the ledge, making your fair partially invincible depending on how fast you ledgedrop fair after the tether regrab. Although I'm pretty sure that this is well known already.
 

Master WGS

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Not well known to me! Trust me, I'm going in about as blind as you can as far as Link meta. No one anywhere near me plays him, and until Project M I've had zero interest in playing him myself.

The closest I have is a Toon Link main I play with frequently, but I have a feeling that won't do me too much good as far as figuring THIS guy out. :p
 

Master WGS

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Alright, get ready to rage because I'm going to ask what are likely obvious questions to everyone else on this board.

Watching some of those matches Hylian, I see you just dropping a lot of bombs. I'm assuming that's for controlling space? Is this specific for MUs against really fast characters, or is this just good to always do? Where are good places to drop bombs (platforms, ledges, etc.)? I've seen this done before, and since I've never bothered to take a critical look at Link, I've never really tried to think about why it's done, and when/where it's best utilized.

Figured I'd ask this stuff here, since this is the closest I can think for a general help thread.

Also, more general tips from anyone are welcome. Pretend you're writing "Baby's First Link Guide" when speaking to me. Assume I know nothing beyond the universal Smash ATs.
 

Hylian

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Alright, get ready to rage because I'm going to ask what are likely obvious questions to everyone else on this board.

Watching some of those matches Hylian, I see you just dropping a lot of bombs. I'm assuming that's for controlling space? Is this specific for MUs against really fast characters, or is this just good to always do? Where are good places to drop bombs (platforms, ledges, etc.)? I've seen this done before, and since I've never bothered to take a critical look at Link, I've never really tried to think about why it's done, and when/where it's best utilized.

Figured I'd ask this stuff here, since this is the closest I can think for a general help thread.

Also, more general tips from anyone are welcome. Pretend you're writing "Baby's First Link Guide" when speaking to me. Assume I know nothing beyond the universal Smash ATs.
I drop bombs to control space and to give me more options at any given moment. You can drop them anywhere, on platforms or the ground. I like to mix up hitting z-dropped bombs with zair and letting them fall on the ground to mess with my opponent, and I like to randomly instant throw bombs laying around on platforms or the ground.
 

BryE

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I drop bombs to control space and to give me more options at any given moment. You can drop them anywhere, on platforms or the ground. I like to mix up hitting z-dropped bombs with zair and letting them fall on the ground to mess with my opponent, and I like to randomly instant throw bombs laying around on platforms or the ground.
Yeah I saw you dropping bombs in your match with Sethlon. Very useful seeing how I can have two or three bombs at my disposal whenever I need them. I also like your Zair fakeout usages too. :D (I saw you zair the edge, cancelled the zair, and up b'd afterwards in one of your matches).

Also, have you incorporated Z-dropping bombs and hitting them with the boomerang in midair? I'm not sure how much use this will be since the boomerang goes behind Link. It also travels a longer distance than a normal boomerang as well as traveling under the stage (in 2.1v it traveled above and over Link). I want to find several usages for this but I don't know what you can do with it.
 

Hylian

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Yeah I saw you dropping bombs in your match with Sethlon. Very useful seeing how I can have two or three bombs at my disposal whenever I need them. I also like your Zair fakeout usages too. :D (I saw you zair the edge, cancelled the zair, and up b'd afterwards in one of your matches).

Also, have you incorporated Z-dropping bombs and hitting them with the boomerang in midair? I'm not sure how much use this will be since the boomerang goes behind Link. It also travels a longer distance than a normal boomerang as well as traveling under the stage (in 2.1v it traveled above and over Link). I want to find several usages for this but I don't know what you can do with it.
If you z-drop zair a bomb and rang it, then it will explode when rang hits it. If you mean just hitting bombs out of the air with rang, it's not useful anymore because they come towards you now instead of straight up. If you're talking about ranging bombs sitting on platforms...I haven't actually tried that in 2.5 because I don't really use rang because I think it's really bad lol.
 

BryE

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If you z-drop zair a bomb and rang it, then it will explode when rang hits it. If you mean just hitting bombs out of the air with rang, it's not useful anymore because they come towards you now instead of straight up. If you're talking about ranging bombs sitting on platforms...I haven't actually tried that in 2.5 because I don't really use rang because I think it's really bad lol.
Oh no, I mean in terms of just redirecting the boomerang.

The boomerang will just fly behind Link at a fairly fast speed. However it's not really practical to use at all.
 

Gadiel_VaStar

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Hylian, I learned stuff I never knew Link could do especially playing soccer w/ the bombs! But bro, I really feel you should work on Link's zoning game. You almost never use Arrows or Boom in the first two matches I saw you vs Sethlon, and you can't forget that Link is a ZONING character. Your aggression game is amazing, but I think you should mix it in. I think a little birdie told me you didn't like camping, but I mean if you REALLY want to win with Link then I think you should use all of his tools.

Edit: And how do you moonwalk!?
 

Hylian

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Hylian, I learned stuff I never knew Link could do especially playing soccer w/ the bombs! But bro, I really feel you should work on Link's zoning game. You almost never use Arrows or Boom in the first two matches I saw you vs Sethlon, and you can't forget that Link is a ZONING character. Your aggression game is amazing, but I think you should mix it in. I think a little birdie told me you didn't like camping, but I mean if you REALLY want to win with Link then I think you should use all of his tools.

Edit: And how do you moonwalk!?
Haha you should take a look at my 2.1 Link videos. I was all about zoning. Links rang is pretty much useless in my experiences. I kept losing to all my practice partners when 2.5 came out and it was because I was trying to play a zoning style with rang. I replaced rang with bomb and worked on my pressure and edgeguarding game and started seeing much MUCH better results against everyone I played. It took about 3 weeks to develop a new style but eventually it worked out for me. I literally had to say "Don't throw rang. Don't throw rang. Don't throw rang." in my mind over and over while playing before it stuck. I still use rang but I use it very sparingly, I just don't think the reward is worth the long animation and the risk of catching it, not to mention hitting bombs with rang doesn't have the same zoning options it used to(which I used to do all the time as well).

Took link is a zoning character. Link is a weird kind of hybrid combo/edgeguard/projectile character imo.

You moonwalk by Dashing one direction, and then doing a half circle with the control stick the opposite direction. The faster you do the half-circle the more effective the moonwalk.
 

Sarix

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I do agree with Gadiel that your zoning was a bit lackluster. Your rushdown was really great, but I felt you could've utilized Link's tools to bait mistakes and creates traps to further your pressure without resorting to camping.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like Link's strength in his projectile pressure game comes more from trapping and baiting instead of continuous pressure. It's at least how my experience and zoning tactics with Rachel from BlazBlue transferred over to Link, I could be completely wrong though and misunderstanding how Link's zoning should work.
 

Hylian

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I do agree with Gadiel that your zoning was a bit lackluster. Your rushdown was really great, but I felt you could've utilized Link's tools to bait mistakes and creates traps to further your pressure without resorting to camping.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like Link's strength in his projectile pressure game comes more from trapping and baiting instead of continuous pressure. It's at least how my experience and zoning tactics with Rachel from BlazBlue transferred over to Link, I could be completely wrong though and misunderstanding how Link's zoning should work.
Again, I would agree if it was 2.5 Link.

Take a look at my 2.1 Link and notice the difference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpR7nNr2Hx0
 

Gadiel_VaStar

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Yeah I've watched your old 2.1 vids and you were def more zoning based. Well just use whatever you think will work best. You are definitely a talented individual, and I'm sure you will have success with you style.
 

Sarix

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Sorry I wasn't trying to bash your play style it just seemed weird not to see Link zoning. I honestly can only say whatever floats your boat since I've only been practicing this game for two weeks.

I have to disagree with your opinion on Link not being a zoning character. Also what do you define as zoning? For me, I was taught on the Dustloop community that it's using your tools to control space and limit the "zones" your opponent can easily get in from while also creating "zones" for you to get in with.

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just curious from an intellectual perspective as to why you think he isn't a zoning character.
 

Sanity's_Theif

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I drop bombs to control space and to give me more options at any given moment. You can drop them anywhere, on platforms or the ground. I like to mix up hitting z-dropped bombs with zair and letting them fall on the ground to mess with my opponent, and I like to randomly instant throw bombs laying around on platforms or the ground.
How do you instant throw? I'm guessing you wavedash to pick up the bomb on the ground and hit the C-stick to throw it at the same time?

If you aren't familiar with it already, you should use ledge-drop > tether regrab > ledge-drop fair. Works really well against people who don't know too much about Link's ledge game. You gain invincibility frames from re-grabbing the ledge, making your fair partially invincible depending on how fast you ledgedrop fair after the tether regrab. Although I'm pretty sure that this is well known already.
What's this ledge-drop f-air? Is there a video of it? Is it just re-grabbing the ledge with the hookshot and then immediately letting go of the edge and f-airing onto the stage?
 

Oro?!

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@Sarix- In smash it's a little more ambiguous because of blastzones and ledges. Every character wants to create zones to set up traps/limitations for your opponent to eventually knock them off stage or set up a combo. The difference is the primary method through which it's achieved.

In GG if someone is camping a Pot, then all he can really do is walk forward, block, and attempt to create some sort of situation through move selections or baits where they either limit their opponents options or make a read. Somehow his only method of approach becomes a sort of zoning, even it's sort of backwards, and he is classified as a grappler. Generally characters who are classified as the zoning characters, have a longer reach and or projectiles that allow them to create opportunities. Let's take Axl Low for example. Axl does not have many setups off of his long range pokes/zoning game. So why would Axl zone or be considered a zoning character? He primarily plays a keep away game because his rush down is weaker, even if it is his only way to combo start. He is indirectly creating opportunities by setting zones/traps etc in which he has stronger setups.

Link can be played exactly that way. His amazing boomerang was taken away which allowed for a lot of long range setups into combos, and replaced with something a lot more mediocre, even though I wouldn't call it bad. Bombs are very good but take forever to pull out, and use in different ways. Arrows don't offer much in the way of pressure or option controlling on stage unless you already have a bomb or rang out. That being said, I do not think Link can be successful without using every zoning tool he has at his disposal. Link's rush down is very high risk but also very high reward. Fair is basically your strongest aerial on shield or whiff in terms of safety, but beyond that, everything is highly situational. If you know you can land a dash attack or a grab, there is a huge payoff there, but if you whiff/hit a shield with high reward moves, you are eating a full punish for free most likely. While Hylian doesn't necessarily make zoning his primary objective, he definitely uses bombs in several creative ways to create opportunities through his range.

Basically I think Hylian is zoning in that sense and that Link is a zoning character in the traditional fighter sense of the word. It's just not as emphasized through his playstyle or even in Link as a character because while he needs to occasionally use those tools to help create advantages, he is certainly strong enough of a character to not need to rely on his projectiles. That is also a key factor. There are quite a number of characters that I would classify as heavy rush down or more zoning based than Link who can either reflect or disrupt Link's projectile based zoning attempts, or who can get inside of his projectile zones before he can even set them up.

TL;DR Link can zone, but it can be ineffective against characters more suited for zoning or against heavy rushdown.

Hope that helps. ^_^

@Sanitys_Thief- If Instant tossing is like how it was in Brawl, then you just need to pick up the item and throw it in a small window. Iirc you have to be in the air and the cstick just allows you to instant toss in any direction.
 

Hylian

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Sariax it's not that Link isn't a "zoning character" it's just that I for the most part don't play him in a way that would fit that definition aside from some select moments during matches as Oro mentioned.


How do you instant throw? I'm guessing you wavedash to pick up the bomb on the ground and hit the C-stick to throw it at the same time?
Instant Throwing is cancelling your airdodge with an item catch into throw. So you airdodge into the item to catch it, and the within the first two-three frames of you catching the item your press the c-stick to throw it a direction allowing you to cancel your airdoge and throw the item instantly. You don't even see the airdodge happen and you can also AGT out of it.
 

Sarix

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TY Oro.

And sorry Hylian, I must've misinterpreted your post, my bad. Whatever floats your boat in the end, it's boring if everyone plays the same way anyway.

I do feel there is some relevance in Link's ability as a trap zoning character. I've been playing around with his projectiles in matches against other West MI players and while Link does have some projectile nerfs this patch, I still think there is some relevance in it as a play style.

I found the boomerang useful offensively for keeping the opponent in shield stun long enough to get another projectile ready, create a mix-up situation, or re-establish zoning depending on my position from them. On the defense I find it helps cover a retreat or bail me out of pressure as it returns to force the opponent to block or be hit. The bow is I found the most reliable at baiting shields and spot dodges from mid range and getting mix-ups or punishes off of it. It is not a great direct pressure tool but I find it's ability to bait reactions it's main strength. The bombs are only held back by a 40 frame pull time which is long, but typically rely on the other two projectiles to give me a chance to pull one out. Not much to say on bombs though, they're an item, they explode, which is bad if you get hit with it, but any one who touches Link in P:M will figure out the rest.

If I discover this doesn't work as I practice and become better at higher level play I'll shut up, but until then I think it's a valid idea while P:M's metagame has so much to develop.
 

Hylian

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I mean, do whatever works for you haha. I started out playing like that when 2.5 came out and was losing to people I normally beat. I spent 3 weeks altering my playstyle to only really focus on bombs for my projectile game and to sharpen up other aspects of my game and started doing tremendously better. I guess I am just so used to 2.1 rang that I can't effectively use it in 2.5.
 

Oro?!

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Sarix I'm fine with making whatever GG comparisons you could ever need haha. It's basically the only non-smash fighter I'm good at.

And what Hylian said. Just do you.
 

Sarix

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@Hylian: That's understandable, like I said it's more interesting to compare notes on different play styles for Link since he is a very versatile character. With GG and BB I'm very used to non-spammable projectiles so finding alternate utilities is something I find fun to look into. I just hope in the future I may be able to contribute to Link's metagame as he is a disgustingly fun character to play, and not everything is set in stone. People who touch Link in my area can't seem to see how his projectiles can aid his rushdown instead of just keep away which I found kinda funny. I do find it weird that the boomerang got nerfed though.

@Oro: GG is too much fun, as my avatar clearly points out haha. BB basically plays like GG to me only with more wake-up options, Drive mechanics, and no FRC (:(). I would say Link is more like Testament in terms of being a versatile zoning character if anybody but that's just my opinion. Yeah I plan to stick with what I feel works and is comfortable.
 

Sanity's_Theif

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Instant Throwing is cancelling your airdodge with an item catch into throw. So you airdodge into the item to catch it, and the within the first two-three frames of you catching the item your press the c-stick to throw it a direction allowing you to cancel your airdoge and throw the item instantly. You don't even see the airdodge happen and you can also AGT out of it.
Never thought to do that, thanks

What about this invincible F-air thing from a ledgehop after re-catching the ledge with a hookshot?
 

Hylian

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Never thought to do that, thanks

What about this invincible F-air thing from a ledgehop after re-catching the ledge with a hookshot?
It's just utilizing your ledge invincibility frames to the fullest. Press back when holding onto the edge and then immediately hookshot. You can do this up to 3 times before it won't grab again and this in itself is useful for edgehogging say..marths-up while still on the ledge. Right after you regrab the ledge you can ledgehop any move as if you just grabbed it. You still have the same amount of invincibility frames as any other time you grab the ledge and can accomplish the same thing by just dropping down and regrabbing the ledge.
 

Gimpyfish62

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doesn't hookshot not grant you invincibility frames unless you pull onto the stage and in that case wouldn't it be faster to drop down and use the currently glitched uber short double jump to regrab?
 

Hylian

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doesn't hookshot not grant you invincibility frames unless you pull onto the stage and in that case wouldn't it be faster to drop down and use the currently glitched uber short double jump to regrab?
What do you mean pull onto the stage? You get invincibility each time you grab the edge. The fastest way to regrab the edge is to push back and Z so that you instantly tether regrab.
 

BRLNK88

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What do you mean pull onto the stage? You get invincibility each time you grab the edge. The fastest way to regrab the edge is to push back and Z so that you instantly tether regrab.
It boggles my mind how many PM Link/TL players never learned this in Brawl...
It's just about the only good thing about the instant tether sweet-spot.
 

Gimpyfish62

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you get invincibility each time you literally grab the ledge but not each time you hookshot, i just misread what you said. i used to play sheik in brawl and i'd use the tether and hang low - then pull myself up for the hog just before their recovery reached

i thought that you were saying that each time you TETHER you get invincibility. NOT each time you grab the ledge.

mah bad.
 

Sanity's_Theif

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It's just utilizing your ledge invincibility frames to the fullest. Press back when holding onto the edge and then immediately hookshot. You can do this up to 3 times before it won't grab again and this in itself is useful for edgehogging say..marths-up while still on the ledge. Right after you regrab the ledge you can ledgehop any move as if you just grabbed it. You still have the same amount of invincibility frames as any other time you grab the ledge and can accomplish the same thing by just dropping down and regrabbing the ledge.
So, are you saying when you grab the ledge, if you immediately let go and jump onto the stage and do a move like F-air, you'll be invincible while you do it?

Or are you saying that's only the case if you just let go of the ledge and immediately do an attack?

Sorry I'm confused on the concept and what it's used for, for all I know I could be using it all the time just without knowing what it is lol

Also, if you told me the exact input for an example I might get it
 

Hylian

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So, are you saying when you grab the ledge, if you immediately let go and jump onto the stage and do a move like F-air, you'll be invincible while you do it?

Or are you saying that's only the case if you just let go of the ledge and immediately do an attack?

Sorry I'm confused on the concept and what it's used for, for all I know I could be using it all the time just without knowing what it is lol

Also, if you told me the exact input for an example I might get it

I'll just give you an example.

When you grab the ledge you have two seconds of invincibility(I made this up for this example, work with me here lol). Say your fair takes 3 seconds from start to finish(again, just for the example). When you grab the ledge you immediately press down or away to let go and then use your double jump to jump onto the stage and fair at the same time. Since you just grabbed the ledge you still have that two seconds of invincibility and the first second 1/2 of your fair would be invincible while the latter half would not.

Those are with random made-up numbers but I hope you get the point. This is something that everyone does in melee and is very basic for coming back to the stage from the ledge.
 

Sanity's_Theif

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I'll just give you an example.

When you grab the ledge you have two seconds of invincibility(I made this up for this example, work with me here lol). Say your fair takes 3 seconds from start to finish(again, just for the example). When you grab the ledge you immediately press down or away to let go and then use your double jump to jump onto the stage and fair at the same time. Since you just grabbed the ledge you still have that two seconds of invincibility and the first second 1/2 of your fair would be invincible while the latter half would not.

Those are with random made-up numbers but I hope you get the point. This is something that everyone does in melee and is very basic for coming back to the stage from the ledge.
Oh alright I get it thanks, though I didn't know you retained a bit of invincibility, I would think N-air would be the better option though since it comes out quicker right?

Are there any other shenanigans that make you invincible for a bit? Like I just recently found out the start-up of Zelda's Nayru special move is invincible, having a lot of fun using that instead of blocking lol
 

Hylian

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Oh alright I get it thanks, though I didn't know you retained a bit of invincibility, I would think N-air would be the better option though since it comes out quicker right?

Are there any other shenanigans that make you invincible for a bit? Like I just recently found out the start-up of Zelda's Nayru special move is invincible, having a lot of fun using that instead of blocking lol
Link doesn't have any invincibility frames, so no. The ledge thing applies to all characters.
 

Hylian

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No, well I meant is there any other techniques for all characters that make you temporarily invincible?
Dying?

lol, no. The only way to gain invincibility is to grab the ledge unless you have a move with invincibility frames
 

Beorn

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I got 5th at Above the Influence in alabama. It was a 28 entrant tournament.

I made some people hate link and project M and one guy throw his controller, then give me a very mean spirited hand shake. I lost to Mr. Pickle's wario for both of my losses. Playing Pickle pretty much every week was my downfall. He knew all my link tricks and was just plain playing smarter than I was that day. :dizzy:

Also this is Beorn4200... For some odd reason my account was deleted for the second time since getting on smash boards.
 

Hylian

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