Link Social Thread

[Sarix]

Tick throw setups?

Sorry I assumed everyone knew what those were my bad.

Tick throws are a method of tricking your opponent into thinking you will hit them with a normal attack and instead throw them. It's one of the most basic mix-ups in fighting games.

An example of one I use is throwing out the boomerang then firing an arrow while approaching. Most likely my opponent will try to shield both projectiles and shield again in anticipation for my normal attack and punish me on block. However, I want them to shield so I can get an easy grab; if they don't, I set-up a weaker mix-up to go back into neutral.

Tick throws in a nutshell, I hope that explains it better.

 

[BryE]

Sorry I assumed everyone knew what those were my bad.

Tick throws are a method of tricking your opponent into thinking you will hit them with a normal attack and instead throw them. It's one of the most basic mix-ups in fighting games.

An example of one I use is throwing out the boomerang then firing an arrow while approaching. Most likely my opponent will try to shield both projectiles and shield again in anticipation for my normal attack and punish me on block. However, I want them to shield so I can get an easy grab; if they don't, I set-up a weaker mix-up to go back into neutral.

Tick throws in a nutshell, I hope that explains it better.

Oh well in that case I normally throw my boomerang behind my opponent while jumping towards them. So:

Jump > Throw Boomerang Diagonally downwards > Wait for shield > Grab while boomerang hits the shield.

I do it kinda often when I have open space. But most of the time I just go for Jab > Jab > Grabs or I just read my opponent into a grab.

 

[Sarix]

Yeah even though the boomerang isn't the amazing combo starter it was, it still has a lot of good tick throw set up potential given the at least moderate shield stun.

I also like using SHFFL Nair for tick throw set ups since I'm finding it rather sneaky for 50/50 mix-ups. Link just has a great amount of mix-up options with his projectiles.

 

[Hylian]

The most common tick throw set-up is empty SH FF to grab.

Going to a tournament tomorrow, reaaaallly out of practice I hope I do well lol.

 

[Nausicaa]

Breaks are good and underrated.
You'll do better than ever, if you don't hinder yourself with silliness.

Empty SH WL to grab is often a more reliable and flexible version of that too.


Edit: This talk of SH backwards > Boomerang...
I'm often afraid of doing this like a blanket maneuver, as I've seen a development growing where players are starting to pick Link off when doing this. I don't mean like Falcon catching Link cleanly, but even against slower characters, it doesn't amount to much when knowing what it presents for Link. Whether it's simply avoiding it, using the act of 'getting pressured by the aerial' as a bait itself (like using Rang > Grab against Link himself knowing it's a potential option for him) or simple things, like the ease of Power Shielding his projectiles (seriously, it's not that hard) to CCing them.

Anyone tamper with the aerial Hookshot at all? Ending smaller combos with it are a nice touch of giving room, as well as establishing a presence to the opponent that you have that option at all. It opens things up on its own that way.

 

[BryE]

Anyone tamper with the aerial Hookshot at all? Ending smaller combos with it are a nice touch of giving room, as well as establishing a presence to the opponent that you have that option at all. It opens things up on its own that way.

I use it quite frequently. It's a solid zoning tool that covers my options when I face people with projectiles.

 

[Nausicaa]

Wouldn't it have the same application against those who don't as well? For zoning, it might take more tole on a match-up that's centered on it, but it has the same effect on others, or should to some significant extent. But yeah, for sure.

The best use I've made for it (I've only recently started working with Link, week 2 right now so pretty fresh) has been for catching people out of finishing combos.
As in, Grab > combo-whatever-standard-stuff > They DI well so Dash Attack/whatever > they get out of hit-stun.
Then... instead of projectile throwing, or chasing them or closing the gap, I do something like DD and wait for a double jump, and it's natural that someone will try getting to safety (away from you), either expecting you to pursue them or proceed to toss projectiles.

Often, if you're not committing to anything, they'll gravitate towards the edge, and by Hookshotting them when they're just about the land/grab the ledge, you've essentially 'poked' them off from a distance (the way an arrow would, but quicker, safer, from a more controllable manner and distance) and that puts them off-stage without a DJ, in the awkward distance from the edge/below the ledge... and unexpectedly. This leads to needing to recover quickly/often results in minor hesitation, and can easily lead into an non-sweet-spotted Up-B AKA Link Up-B Spike.
Naturally, they've adjusted (or rather, have sharpened up on their abilities to sweet-spot the ledge) and now it's just leading to very good positioning. Otherwise, their options grow very limited, and the presence of this seems to make opponents hesitant to act regarding getting to safety, and often putting themselves in favorable spots for other Link options.

Hopefully that made sense.
That's the kind of tampering I'm wondering about. More specifically 'what is the niche of Hookshot' rather than just using it as a tool among his options. It's a unique tool, niche, but worth a look into, as the presence of it has really opened up some neat options. Link loves options.

 

[B.W.]

Sorry I assumed everyone knew what those were my bad.

Tick throws are a method of tricking your opponent into thinking you will hit them with a normal attack and instead throw them. It's one of the most basic mix-ups in fighting games.

An example of one I use is throwing out the boomerang then firing an arrow while approaching. Most likely my opponent will try to shield both projectiles and shield again in anticipation for my normal attack and punish me on block. However, I want them to shield so I can get an easy grab; if they don't, I set-up a weaker mix-up to go back into neutral.

Tick throws in a nutshell, I hope that explains it better.

That's not actually what a tick throw is.

Tick throws are when you put the opponent in hitstun or blockstun and then throw them as soon as the stun ends.

This isn't really a thing in Smash because you can grab people when they are in hitstun as well as blockstun.

 

[BryE]

Wouldn't it have the same application against those who don't as well? For zoning, it might take more tole on a match-up that's centered on it, but it has the same effect on others, or should to some significant extent. But yeah, for sure.

I didn't mean that I only used it when I faced people with projectiles. In general, it's a good tool to have since it has very little endlag and it has more range than his sword.

Also, using it as a combo finisher/edgeguarding tool is pretty useful. I haven't really done much of that.
But what I have been doing is using Footstool > Air-dodge Zair since not many people use it (Idk if anyone uses it actually)

At earlier percentages, I believe it's fairly useful since it could potentially lead into some different setups. But you shouldn't even bother using it at higher percentages since you should be working on killing the opponent instead.

 

[Sarix]

That's not actually what a tick throw is.

Tick throws are when you put the opponent in hitstun or blockstun and then throw them as soon as the stun ends.

This isn't really a thing in Smash because you can grab people when they are in hitstun as well as blockstun.

Yeah I just realized I forgot to put in the part about blocking. Makes sense why it isn't really a thing in Smash since grab armor doesn't exist but I find the method applicable still as a mix-up option.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

I went to a tournament, and got in the top bracket, but they started the sets before I could finish my last match, so the guy right below me played in the finals instead of me -_-

used all Link pretty much, 1 match I used Falco though against Sonic

 

[Nausicaa]

Footstools are generally not focused on by anyone to any significance yet. Maybe one day, but they're pretty silly, and worth a look at least.
Footstool > Zair > Grab seems functional, otherwise, it's a good edge-guard I'm sure too. Jump off facing the ledge, footstool them from way out there, quick grapple to the ledge. Meh, Zair is cool, Footstool... not so much. haha

 

[BRLNK88]

Zair might be even cooler if they find a way to increase his grapple to Melee length.

 

[BryE]

Zair might be even cooler if they find a way to increase his grapple to Melee length.

It doesn't need to be any longer than it is already.

Footstools are generally not focused on by anyone to any significance yet. Maybe one day, but they're pretty silly, and worth a look at least.
Footstool > Zair > Grab seems functional, otherwise, it's a good edge-guard I'm sure too. Jump off facing the ledge, footstool them from way out there, quick grapple to the ledge. Meh, Zair is cool, Footstool... not so much. haha

Honestly speaking, footstooling can be used to setup potential traps/combos only if the person doesn't tech. You can even gimp people with footstooling if you combo into them so it puts them in more awkward situations. As well as this, you can also use them to prevent people from teching properly by footstooling them before they hit the ground from a combo.

Also iirc, Reflex uses footstool setups to catch his opponent off-guard, as well as another person named Unholydeath123. Reflex also made a thread specifically about footstool setups as well.

It may not be "cool" but it works when you can easily combo into it.

 

[Nausicaa]

prevent people from teching properly footstooling them before they hit the ground from a combo.

This is probably the most underutilized function of Mario Capes by the mass public community. Very few bother with this, but the crap is broke and even worse in PM.

I'll look into that footstool stuff, sounds fun.


Edit: Also, played some more Link today, and my game-play revolves almost entirely around jab, grab and Nair/Bair. Everything else brings depth, but that seems to be the 'back-bone' I'm gravitating to.
Grapple in the air has proved to be very functional, and I've only just started experimenting with the stuff I was expecting to make work. Very fun.
Very little projectile use, lots of forced edge-guard situations which come very easy for Link.

 

[Hylian]

Played horribly in the tournament I went to just as I thought :/. I should really play more than once a month lol. I got 4th in PM singles and 1st in teams, 7th in melee singles 1st in melee teams.

 

[BryE]

Played horribly in the tournament I went to just as I thought :/. I should really play more than once a month lol. I got 4th in PM singles and 1st in teams, 7th in melee singles 1st in melee teams.

>Played horribly in the tournament
>Got 4th in singles and first in teams

lol Do you normally get 1st place everything or something in PM?

 

[BryE]

Double post, but do you guys think there should be an Advanced Technique thread for Link?
I've been thinking about it since a lot of people don't know everything that Link has to offer in his gameplay. And we could also discuss new tech that people find too.

 

[Hylian]

>Played horribly in the tournament
>Got 4th in singles and first in teams

lol Do you normally get 1st place everything or something in PM?

I wanted 1st/2nd in PM singles, everything else was expected.

 

[BryE]

I wanted 1st/2nd in PM singles, everything else was expected.

Good **** nonetheless. The only time I'll ever get 1st place is if PP don't show up to a tournament that I attend to. Most of the time I place top 5 whenever I attend a PM tourney.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

So I won a tournament yesterday(Smash in Cumberland) using Link....... and Zelda...... lots of Zelda, it turns out Link isn't as good as I thought, I'm probably just gonna be a Zelda main now lol but at least we can say Link won a tournament, albeit with help

 

[BRLNK88]

I think Link is still better than Zelda...

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

I think Link is still better than Zelda...

Sorry but I don't think that's the case, I main both, and right now I'm only gonna use Link in matchups where I know he has an advantage, which so far are Snake and Ganon

The rest of the matchups that I've played don't work out so well, DK and Mario are a pain in the ass and spacies are a given, he just can't deal with them

 

[BRLNK88]

I agree DK can be a pain in the ass, but I've fought some decent Marios with Link, I think its pretty even.
Spacies really aren't THAT bad, certainly not as bad as Melee.
I do think though that Zelda is still quite limited offensively. She zones much better, but she's still slow. She's difficult to combo but still easy to kill. Link has better offensive options and can survive forever.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

I agree DK can be a pain in the ***, but I've fought some decent Marios with Link, I think its pretty even.
Spacies really aren't THAT bad, certainly not as bad as Melee.
I do think though that Zelda is still quite limited offensively. She zones much better, but she's still slow. She's difficult to combo but still easy to kill. Link has better offensive options and can survive forever.

Mario isn't horrible but I definitely think it's in Mario's favor a bit, that ******* cape, Link's projectiles are worthless, I have an easier time against DK than Mario

And there's no way you've played any good spacies if you're saying that, Link gets absolutely obliterated by them, he doesn't have the tools to deal with them, if it were 2.1 Link I'd say he'd have a decent chance, seriously though, why the hell did they nerf Link from 2.1? He wasn't god tier in demo 2.1

Anyways, you don't have to go offensive with Zelda, by her design, you're not even supposed to, you make your opponent approach you and punish, she's more about setting up traps

And Link's offensive options aren't so fantastic, Link is more of a zoning character, if you go aggressive with him, you'll get destroyed, you have to carefully set up traps and control the field with his projectiles, and then space out his attacks to punish your opponent when they make a mistake, that's the only real effective way to play Link, he's not fast enough to go on the offensive much, if he had his 2.1 boomerang I'd say yea he can go more offensive because if you hit your opponent with the 2.1 rang, you can combo off it, 2.5 rang you can only combo if the person DI's towards you aka DI's wrong

 

[Hylian]

Link is in good hands for the next demo don't worry .

 

[BryE]

Mario isn't horrible but I definitely think it's in Mario's favor a bit, that ******* cape, Link's projectiles are worthless, I have an easier time against DK than Mario

And there's no way you've played any good spacies if you're saying that, Link gets absolutely obliterated by them, he doesn't have the tools to deal with them, if it were 2.1 Link I'd say he'd have a decent chance, seriously though, why the hell did they nerf Link from 2.1? He wasn't god tier in demo 2.1

Actually, Link vs Spacies isn't that bad of a matchup anymore compared to what it was in Melee. This is coming from me playing A LOT of Link vs Spacies against various people in friendlies and in tournaments.
Granted that it's still bad though. Just not as horrible as it was back in Melee.

He has faster mobility, his projectiles has more range than they did in Melee (especially his arrows and bombs), and his recovery is better (at least I think it's better than it was before). And I think a few of his moves are also faster which enables him to beat out most moves that spacies throw out, mainly using his Nair.


And as for Link's nerf in 2.1, he needed it. His chaingrab was beyond stupid since he could literally do standing chaingrabs that require little to no effort involved. Not only this, but the knockback growth was less than it was now. Which made it extremely easy to do 0 - death cgs. And as far as I'm concerned, this was one of the major nerfs that Link had in 2.5b. His other nerf included his boomerang (which isn't too bad now imo).

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Actually, Link vs Spacies isn't that bad of a matchup anymore compared to what it was in Melee. This is coming from me playing A LOT of Link vs Spacies against various people in friendlies and in tournaments.
Granted that it's still bad though. Just not as horrible as it was back in Melee.

He has faster mobility, his projectiles has more range than they did in Melee (especially his arrows and bombs), and his recovery is better (at least I think it's better than it was before). And I think a few of his moves are also faster which enables him to beat out most moves that spacies throw out, mainly using his Nair.


And as for Link's nerf in 2.1, he needed it. His chaingrab was beyond stupid since he could literally do standing chaingrabs that require little to no effort involved. Not only this, but the knockback growth was less than it was now. Which made it extremely easy to do 0 - death cgs. And as far as I'm concerned, this was one of the major nerfs that Link had in 2.5b. His other nerf included his boomerang (which isn't too bad now imo).

Coming from the same experiences here bro, and I manage to get the spacies down to 1 stock most of the time, but a good amount of the time I get 2-stocked, and Link is my best guy, I've been playing him since demo 1, Zelda I started playing seriously like a month and a half ago and I do much better against spacies with her when I don't even have the character fully down yet.

His mobility is still crap compared to spacies, they can literally run circles around him

Projectiles having more range really does nothing, it just ensures that a spacie can reflect it with their down-B and (in the case of Fox and Wolf only since Falco can immediately jump out of a reflected shine) have time to end the reflect animation before you can get to them, trust me, Link's projectiles don't do jack **** against a spacie, you can't even combo out of his boomerang against anyone now unless you hit your opponent with it right in their face, and I mean you have to be right next to them when the boomerang hits, otherwise they'll just DI away and you can't catch them, the one thing I've found even a little useful with projectiles, is taking out a bomb, holding A, and side-smashing when your opponent doesn't expect it, but once they catch on it's pretty useless too

No he actually didn't, I also thought Link's chaingrabs were stupid in 2.1, but after I went to a tournament in Framingham, against people who weren't even that good, I found out Link's chaingrabs really didn't work as well as I thought, people just don't know how to get out of chaingrabs but the fact is, almost everyone can jump away from a regrab from Link's chain in time.

I remember posting a video showing it was possible to start chaingrabbing DK from 0%, well I went back into training mode and slowed things down and I noticed that it wasn't really a chaingrab, what was happening was that sometimes when you down-throw DK at 0%, he goes right into a standing animation when he lands instead of falling on the ground, and the computer not doing anything in training mode, just sits there for another grab

Another thing is I(and everyone else I guess) didn't try DI'ing down and away(off a down throw) and up and away(off an upthrow), doing both of these made it so they would either hit the ground before the clawshot could reach them, or push them into the air enough where they could jump away from a re-grab

I tested it out, and against an opponent who is DI'ing right in demo 2.1, chaingrabs only work on Fox/Falco from (IIRC) 40% - 70% off an upthrow, on C. Falcon, I forgot but the range was only 20% but it's close to Fox and Falco, on Marth, the % range you can chaingrab was only about 10% because he could up-air, side-B stall, or jump away from a re-grab, against DK, the actual % range it works was only about 30% and he's the worst case scenario

On top of that, for any of these chaingrabs to work, you had to time thing PERFECTLY with Link, if you started running in the wrong direction from where your opponent DI's, forget it, you're not going to catch them, so it was risky to even try to re-grab, I can't tell you how many times at the tournament in Framingham I tried to re-grab a C. Falcon, 100% certain I could, only to have them jump up and come down and knee me in the face, trying to chaingrab with Link in reality is a high-risk low-reward situation in 2.1 and even more so in 2.5

You might be saying now that he doesn't NEED to grab people from the air, what I'm saying is it gives him something stupid that isn't out of proportion to the amount of stupid things Fox and Falco have, it helps put him on their level

And his boomerang is no longer a reliable combo tool in 2.5, if your opponent DI's away from you(like they should) when they get hit from the boomerang, unless you're right in front of them when you hit with you're boomerang, you won't be able to catch them to combo them

 

[Sarix]

While I do agree that Link's mobility does hurt him the most currently, I disagree with him being worse than Zelda.

Yes the spacies are still a bad MU but at least Link has a few reliable reversals now.

DK is annoying, but it's far more bearable compared to zoner vs grappler MUs in other fighting games i.e. Rachel vs Tager.

Most of Zelda's advantages come from her ability to kill below 100% consistently. Imo, her zoning is actually less effective compared to Link from my experience with multiple Sheildas. It takes her much longer to set up her traps when with Link I can have two projectiles out constantly in the time it takes Zelda to get one fireball in the desired spot. Overall she is much better than she has ever been but she has more limited options compared to Link.

Zoning does not mean a character isn't offensive. Link's projectiles are not the fastest but they can set up a fairly strong pressure game with smart placement and reduce the risk of his rushdown game. Instead of using the boomerang for a combo starter I use it to mix-up and it works just fine that way; granted I wouldn't mind it becoming a good combo starter again. His offensive options are average at worst, with momentum he can have a scary pressure game but with his slow projectiles, offensive action requires smart planning.

 

[BRLNK88]

Mario isn't horrible but I definitely think it's in Mario's favor a bit, that ******* cape, Link's projectiles are worthless, I have an easier time against DK than Mario

And there's no way you've played any good spacies if you're saying that, Link gets absolutely obliterated by them, he doesn't have the tools to deal with them, if it were 2.1 Link I'd say he'd have a decent chance, seriously though, why the hell did they nerf Link from 2.1? He wasn't god tier in demo 2.1

Anyways, you don't have to go offensive with Zelda, by her design, you're not even supposed to, you make your opponent approach you and punish, she's more about setting up traps

And Link's offensive options aren't so fantastic, Link is more of a zoning character, if you go aggressive with him, you'll get destroyed, you have to carefully set up traps and control the field with his projectiles, and then space out his attacks to punish your opponent when they make a mistake, that's the only real effective way to play Link, he's not fast enough to go on the offensive much, if he had his 2.1 boomerang I'd say yea he can go more offensive because if you hit your opponent with the 2.1 rang, you can combo off it, 2.5 rang you can only combo if the person DI's towards you aka DI's wrong

If you use your projectiles CORRECTLY against Mario, his cape really isn't that bothersome. You have to mix it up, keep your opponent guessing. He can't cape everything... if you really play Link you should know that. If anything, TL gets hurt more by the cape.
DK is capable of negating all of Link's zoning options and makes him look light as hell with his killing ability, that's why it's harder.
And I've played against the best Falco in Texas, so I stand by my statement. You have to play SMART, never stop moving, try to never shield, that's when Link gets in trouble (mostly against Falco). I still lost, but I did MUCH better than I would have against his Falco in Melee (he attested PM Falco feels identical to Melee Falco). Platforms also help a ton, try to avoid FD and GHZ (that platform is ********). It is worth noting my Ike did much better, but its established Ike is a better character in general.
Also, Link is NOT strictly a "zoning character". Melee Link was except for MUs like Samus, but PM Link does have the options to allow one to mix up their playing style. He's faster than a lot of people think.
Also, I don't know why you're even complaining about speed when Zelda is SLOWER than Link...
A lot of spacies don't know how to fight Zelda yet since she's been changed so much, give it time.

 

[Hylian]

Lol Link gets destroyed by spacies. The best falco player in texas doesn't really compare at all to almost any good spacie players in other regions(no offense to him), I know I've been a part of the texas smash scene since 2003 lol. I also played Sethlon a crapton when he was here and went fairly even with his sonic using Link(we recorded several hours of footage on youtube !)

I agree mostly with ST. I pointed all of these problems out awhile ago lol but I just completely changed my style to compensate for them. Link isn't horrible or anything, but he certainly has some seemingly unwinnable match-ups.

Link also isn't faster than people think. He has the 4th slowest running speed, the slowest jumping speed(IIRC), slow air movements, the second shortest wavedash....he's pretty much slow in every way imaginable lol. Aside from bomb play his mix-ups are pretty standard stuff as well. Of course you would do better with link in PM than Melee, he's a better character lmao. Almost all the other characters are better as well though, you can't make that direct comparison so easily.

Zelda is very mobile actually being able to wavedash out of up-b and has much better zoning tools than link does. I don't personally think she's better(I think novelty factor has a huge part to success to her) but writing her off due to inexperience with the character is kind of silly. She clearly has great ways of dealing with pressure which link suffers massively from and logically does better against pressure type characters like spacies/dk etc because of this. I don't think she does better against the entire cast than link however I won't really get into that as it doesn't hold a point.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

While I do agree that Link's mobility does hurt him the most currently, I disagree with him being worse than Zelda.

Yes the spacies are still a bad MU but at least Link has a few reliable reversals now.

Link does not have the tools to deal with spacies

I managed to beat great spacie players with Zelda

Most of Zelda's advantages come from her ability to kill below 100% consistently. Imo, her zoning is actually less effective compared to Link from my experience with multiple Sheildas. It takes her much longer to set up her traps when with Link I can have two projectiles out constantly in the time it takes Zelda to get one fireball in the desired spot. Overall she is much better than she has ever been but she has more limited options compared to Link.

Fireballs aren't her primary method of zoning, or maybe I'm talking about poking, idk the terminology so well

Anyways, Zelda isn't just a zoning character so she doesn't need to be better than Link in that category to be better than him

Zoning does not mean a character isn't offensive. Link's projectiles are not the fastest but they can set up a fairly strong pressure game with smart placement and reduce the risk of his rushdown game. Instead of using the boomerang for a combo starter I use it to mix-up and it works just fine that way; granted I wouldn't mind it becoming a good combo starter again. His offensive options are average at worst, with momentum he can have a scary pressure game but with his slow projectiles, offensive action requires smart planning.

I know that, but having to rely heavily on zoning with low mobility means that most of the time, you're not offensive.

Explain these mix-ups of yours, the only thing I've found the boomerang useful for now is interrupting your opponents flow, and getting a little bit of damage.

I'd say his offensive options are average at best, explain to me exactly what offensive options Link has that are so fantastic

If you use your projectiles CORRECTLY against Mario, his cape really isn't that bothersome. You have to mix it up, keep your opponent guessing. He can't cape everything... if you really play Link you should know that.

I play Link very well thank you and I know that, but Link's boomerang is incredibly telegraphed, same goes for his bombs and arrows, good Mario players reflect the majority of projectiles even when mixing things up as great as possible, Link's projectiles are just too telegraphed and slow, so against Mario his projectiles don't really work, I've played the matchup enough to know that

You have to play SMART, never stop moving, try to never shield, that's when Link gets in trouble (mostly against Falco). I still lost, but I did MUCH better than I would have against his Falco in Melee (he attested PM Falco feels identical to Melee Falco). Platforms also help a ton, try to avoid FD and GHZ (that platform is ********). It is worth noting my Ike did much better, but its established Ike is a better character in general.

You're telling me things I already know, I know ALL of that, and I apply it, and I'm telling you it's not enough, you still lost, I lost to spacies as well, in my case I can get them down to 1 stock a decent amount of times, yes Link does better than in Melee but the matchup is still horrible for Link

Also, Link is NOT strictly a "zoning character". Melee Link was except for MUs like Samus, but PM Link does have the options to allow one to mix up their playing style. He's faster than a lot of people think.

To be good with Link, I've found the most effective method in demo 2.5 to play him almost exactly like melee Link, tell me exactly how he isn't a zoning character

And you're wrong, he's still terribly slow, spacies can literally run circles around him and he doesn't have the tools to deal with that, hell Sonic is a problem just because of his speed

Also, I don't know why you're even complaining about speed when Zelda is SLOWER than Link...
A lot of spacies don't know how to fight Zelda yet since she's been changed so much, give it time.

Zelda has the tools to deal with the fast spacies while Link doesn't, speed isn't everything, but it doesn't help if you don't have speed OR the tools to deal with quick characters(which is the case for Link)

I lost against MDZ with Zelda hard in my 1st tournament, but I won the 2nd because I adapted, it's a possibility you're right but I doubt Zelda will do any worse against spacies in the future to the point where she's not a good option against them

Lol Link gets destroyed by spacies. The best falco player in texas doesn't really compare at all to almost any good spacie players in other regions(no offense to him), I know I've been a part of the texas smash scene since 2003 lol. I also played Sethlon a crapton when he was here and went fairly even with his sonic using Link(we recorded several hours of footage on youtube !)

I agree mostly with ST. I pointed all of these problems out awhile ago lol but I just completely changed my style to compensate for them. Link isn't horrible or anything, but he certainly has some seemingly unwinnable match-ups.

Link also isn't faster than people think. He has the 4th slowest running speed, the slowest jumping speed(IIRC), slow air movements, the second shortest wavedash....he's pretty much slow in every way imaginable lol. Aside from bomb play his mix-ups are pretty standard stuff as well. Of course you would do better with link in PM than Melee, he's a better character lmao. Almost all the other characters are better as well though, you can't make that direct comparison so easily.

Zelda is very mobile actually being able to wavedash out of up-b and has much better zoning tools than link does. I don't personally think she's better(I think novelty factor has a huge part to success to her) but writing her off due to inexperience with the character is kind of silly. She clearly has great ways of dealing with pressure which link suffers massively from and logically does better against pressure type characters like spacies/dk etc because of this. I don't think she does better against the entire cast than link however I won't really get into that as it doesn't hold a point.

This guy gets it, I'm glad someone does

 

[B.W.]

I can't say who I think is better between Zelda and Link.

However, people are right that Link isn't as bad against Spacies as he was before. But that's only because he got better. That said, Spacies are still some of his worst matchups by far. Both have dumb stuff against Link's neutral game. Fox has his ability to never approach and stupid amounts of mobility. Falco has lasers which are much more spammable than Link's projectiles which can make it hard to start spamming projectiles in the first place.

Lots of other characters, such as DK and Mario, whoop Link's ass because he's very easy to combo, and with those characters any hit turns into a ToD on Link.

I do very much think that Zelda is better against Spacies than Link... Though she's still not looking at a positive matchup.

 

[BryE]

However, people are right that Link isn't as bad against Spacies as he was before. But that's only because he got better. That said, Spacies are still some of his worst matchups by far. Both have dumb stuff against Link's neutral game. Fox has his ability to never approach and stupid amounts of mobility. Falco has lasers which are much more spammable than Link's projectiles which can make it hard to start spamming projectiles in the first place.
.

The bolded part is basically what I'm agreeing to and was my main point overall.

I never stated that it was an easily winnable matchup to begin with. It's barely unwinnable but it's more of a chance to win that matchup in PM than it is in Melee since Fox and Falco are kinda stagnant as a character while Link has been given a few more buffs compared to his melee counterpart.




And ST, I'm not sure on what you're doing while facing against Fox/Falco. I've done fairly well against Falco/Fox players within tournaments and in friendlies. My win to lose ratio is either even or positive (at this point I believe it's sorta positive at this point). The players that I've played against previously were:

EpixAura (Falco Main)
Yeroc (Falco/ZSS main)
Bl@ck Chris (Ganon/Fox main but uses Fox more)
Blade (Fox main, secondaries Wolf/Falco)
Sneak (Falco main).

There's also Dr. PeePee but he doesn't count because . . . well he's Dr. PeePee.

And the last person I remember losing to was Stingers which was back in 2.1. Back before I knew much about the Link vs Spacey matchup at all.

The only person that I lose to the majority of the time is Blade, and he's essentially a better player than me. Everyone else is around my level in Project M and my matches with Bl@ck Chris and Sneak are usually even. (I 2 stocked EpixAura and made a 2 stock comeback against Yeroc when he picked Falco 3rd match on FD. Ended up 3-0ing him in bracket) Here's some bracket results I have if you want to check them out.

http://smashboards.com/threads/ecu-gaming-presents-dockside-2-100-pot-bonus.335681/

http://smashboards.com/threads/duelist-kingdom-results.335350/

Again, the matchup isn't no where near in Link's favor. I'm not stating this at all. (I'll admit that I don't ever want to play a Falco in PM while I'm Link again. It's frustrating) But it's still more bearable than Melee Link imo.

 

[Sarix]

Link does not have the tools to deal with spacies

I managed to beat great spacie players with Zelda



Fireballs aren't her primary method of zoning, or maybe I'm talking about poking, idk the terminology so well

Anyways, Zelda isn't just a zoning character so she doesn't need to be better than Link in that category to be better than him


I know that, but having to rely heavily on zoning with low mobility means that most of the time, you're not offensive.

Explain these mix-ups of yours, the only thing I've found the boomerang useful for now is interrupting your opponents flow, and getting a little bit of damage.

I'd say his offensive options are average at best, explain to me exactly what offensive options Link has that are so fantastic

Between my exasperation in dealing with Autodesk Maya's keyframing for animation on my final project and the straw man fallacies in your reply to my post I'm not even going to bother trying to make counterarguments to all your replies. It just screams unnecessary and stupid argument in the future.

Bottom Line: Better reversals =/= all the tools necessary to deal with spacies. What does winning with Zelda have anything to do with Link's reversals at all? I consider Link an average character at best, he has tools to make him high tier but his speed problems both mobility and first active frame wise along with his weakness to getting combo'd hamper him pretty hard. His offensive game is average without momentum and above average at best if he can press the advantage effectively with good zoning and mix-ups to build damage and keep control.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

The bolded part is basically what I'm agreeing to and was my main point overall.

I never stated that it was an easily winnable matchup to begin with.

What I'm saying, is that if you're fighting a good spacie player, no matter how good you do with Link, I think you'll still lose 80-90% of the time, I've come to rely on Zelda for matchups against spacies because there's no real hope for Link to win, in a tournament I'll NEVER use Link against a spacie player

And ST, I'm not sure on what you're doing while facing against Fox/Falco. I've done fairly well against Falco/Fox players within tournaments and in friendlies. My win to lose ratio is either even or positive (at this point I believe it's sorta positive at this point)

Doing everything I can, my Link is much better than my Zelda since I've been playing Link since melee, like I said, I don't do horrible, I do about as great as I can see a Link doing against spacies, as I've said, I usually get good spacie players to 1 stock but I still end up losing a good chunk of the time, and this is against multiple spacie players, when I won the tournament in P:M, a very good melee spacie player decided to try out P:M just to play some matches against me(I think Edmund was his name) and I lost to him with Link by 2 stocks, but won with Zelda

My point is all the advice you've given me, I've been applying it for a while now, it's nothing new, but it's still not enough to give Link any hope against spacies

Between my exasperation in dealing with Autodesk Maya's keyframing for animation on my final project and the straw man fallacies in your reply to my post I'm not even going to bother trying to make counterarguments to all your replies. It just screams unnecessary and stupid argument in the future.

Bottom Line: Better reversals =/= all the tools necessary to deal with spacies. What does winning with Zelda have anything to do with Link's reversals at all? I consider Link an average character at best, he has tools to make him high tier but his speed problems both mobility and first active frame wise along with his weakness to getting combo'd hamper him pretty hard. His offensive game is average without momentum and above average at best if he can press the advantage effectively with good zoning and mix-ups to build damage and keep control.

To be honest, I'm not putting effort into my replies because I'm focusing on finals, after that I can put in more effort but basically just listen to Hylian at this point

I don't disagree with anything in your second paragraph, my replies before and even now are sub-standard because I'm writing a 10 page paper at the same time and I haven't gotten more than 6 hours sleep in the last 2 days so I apologize for that

 

[Sarix]

What I'm saying, is that if you're fighting a good spacie player, no matter how good you do with Link, I think you'll still lose 80-90% of the time, I've come to rely on Zelda for matchups against spacies because there's no real hope for Link to win, in a tournament I'll NEVER use Link against a spacie player

Doing everything I can, my Link is much better than my Zelda since I've been playing Link since melee, like I said, I don't do horrible, I do about as great as I can see a Link doing against spacies, as I've said, I usually get good spacie players to 1 stock but I still end up losing a good chunk of the time, and this is against multiple spacie players, when I won the tournament in P:M, a very good melee spacie player decided to try out P:M just to play some matches against me(I think Edmund was his name) and I lost to him with Link by 2 stocks, but won with Zelda

My point is all the advice you've given me, I've been applying it for a while now, it's nothing new, but it's still not enough to give Link any hope against spacies

To be honest, I'm not putting effort into my replies because I'm focusing on finals, after that I can put in more effort but basically just listen to Hylian at this point

I don't disagree with anything in your second paragraph, my replies before and even now are sub-standard because I'm writing a 10 page paper at the same time and I haven't gotten more than 6 hours sleep in the last 2 days so I apologize for that

Alright glad to know we're on the same page with finals exhaustion hehe. I wasn't mad, just "I don't have the energy to even bother with this right now." Good to know this will stay civil.

 

[BryE]

What I'm saying, is that if you're fighting a good spacie player, no matter how good you do with Link, I think you'll still lose 80-90% of the time, I've come to rely on Zelda for matchups against spacies because there's no real hope for Link to win, in a tournament I'll NEVER use Link against a spacie player

No offense, but with that kind of mentality, it's kinda acceptable for you to lose constantly if you're thinking like that.

The matchup is horrible but have some faith man. 80% - 90%? Ouch.

Doing everything I can, my Link is much better than my Zelda since I've been playing Link since melee, like I said, I don't do horrible, I do about as great as I can see a Link doing against spacies, as I've said, I usually get good spacie players to 1 stock but I still end up losing a good chunk of the time, and this is against multiple spacie players, when I won the tournament in P:M, a very good melee spacie player decided to try out P:M just to play some matches against me(I think Edmund was his name) and I lost to him with Link by 2 stocks, but won with Zelda

Back in 2.1, a Melee Falco player named Bden decided to play Project M with me since it seemed pretty similar to him when he was using Falco while I was at a tournament. He used Fox for the first few matches we played and Falco last match and, iirc, I won all of the matches we played. And when I tried using Snake against a few people who used space animals I kinda got wrecked (mainly because I was still picking him up at the time)

He also plays against Yeroc (a person who works on ZSS in PM) and Dr. PP himself since he's good friends with him. I personally don't think he's a bad Falco player though. I just think that he didn't know the Link/Falco matchup at the time since most Link players that I see stray way from their main against space animals. And the more I play spacie mains, the more I see them become surprised on how different Link is in Project M. (Although it's nothing too drastic)

My point is all the advice you've given me, I've been applying it for a while now, it's nothing new, but it's still not enough to give Link any hope against spacies

Well that's kind of a problem since the advice that I've given to you before probably doesn't work against space animals. Not to mention you cannot really camp out space animals since they have really good mobility and approaches compared to the rest of the cast, mainly Falco. I generally focus more on close quarter combat than anything else so I know what to do when space animals starts pressuring me. The only time I start abusing my projectiles is if I'm on a really big stage and it's usually bombs/boomerang that I'll use in the matchup.


IMO, if you're having a lot of trouble against space animals, you should send in your videos in the video archive thread against good space animal players. That way I can figure out what exactly you're doing against them since I'm not sure what you do in a normal match.

 

[BRLNK88]

lol Hylian, when's the last time you played Tirno? Hell, when's the last time you were actually PART of the Texas Melee scene?
You moved a LONG time ago dawg, haha. I haven't seen you at any Texas tournaments recently. Tirno at his very best is good enough to make bracket at a major (albeit, not get far).
Also, losing 80-90% of the time is a GROSS overexaggeration. That's closer to how it is for Melee Link. IMO, Link/Falco is 60:40, maybe 65:35 at worst.
Link/Fox a little worse than that. Yeah, I lost all my matches to Tirno with Link, but he's MUCH, MUCH better than me, I still managed to catch him off guard from time to time. I've played Falcos closer to my skill level and either beaten or gone even with them.
And if Link really is in good hands, those MUs will only get better. The spacies (fox and falco at least) aren't going to change.

 

[Hylian]

lol Hylian, when's the last time you played Tirno? Hell, when's the last time you were actually PART of the Texas Melee scene?
You moved a LONG time ago dawg, haha. I haven't seen you at any Texas tournaments recently. Tirno at his very best is good enough to make bracket at a major (albeit, not get far).
Also, losing 80-90% of the time is a GROSS overexaggeration. That's closer to how it is for Melee Link. IMO, Link/Falco is 60:40, maybe 65:35 at worst.
Link/Fox a little worse than that. Yeah, I lost all my matches to Tirno with Link, but he's MUCH, MUCH better than me, I still managed to catch him off guard from time to time. I've played Falcos closer to my skill level and either beaten or gone even with them.
And if Link really is in good hands, those MUs will only get better. The spacies (fox and falco at least) aren't going to change.

Last time I played Tirno was indeed quite awhile ago at a UT melee tournament where I beat him in winners and losers iirc. I've kept track of players he's beaten at nationals, saw him at apex and I think at genesis2. I would say I have a pretty good idea of his skill level, texas in general is one of the weakest states for melee as well lol. I've visited texas several times since I've left and played people there since then. Since moving from texas I've seen just how much better other states are at melee heh while texas's melee scene pretty much just died off. No offense to anyone there I love all the texas people, but it really turned into mainly a brawl state and that sucked for the melee scene there.

Just read your posts. You are basing the match-up off completely anecdotal evidence and not giving any really solid support. You don't even have experience against good spacie players afaik because there are no good spacie players in texas in melee or in pm. I'm pretty confident I could beat Tirno fairly easily with Link lol. You aren't accounting for the fact that he doesn't play PM much, you have a novelty factor, he probably doesn't have link experience in melee regardless and you lost regardless. I've beaten several spacie players with Link, that doesn't really mean much because all I did was abuse their lack of knowledge. When I play with people who understand what I'm doing and play PM often they generally destroy my link even though he's by far my best character and I can do well against them with others. 2.1 Link was much better at spacies purely because his grab was so good that he could get grabs leading to gimps quite often, comboing a spacie into a grab with link now is near impossible lol. Keep in mind I also mained spacies in melee for 7 years and understand those character very well.

You are drawing random conclusions like "if link is in really good hands, those MU's will only get better" when that doesn't logically make sense at all. Spacies as characters have so many more options that putting them in better hands against a more limited character is only going to widen the gap. You are just stating things as a matter of fact. Show me options I wasn't aware of that link has to deal with pressure. Show me how to circumvent fox's baiting tools and falcos stage control with one of the slowest characters in every aspect(movement,wd,framedata) in the entire game. I don't like to put numbers on match-ups because it's incredibly arbitrary and doesn't really say much but I really can't see how Link would be a viable character to use against spacies in high level play.