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Link Match-up Thread

Fenrir VII

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Landing lag for uair is crazy long...
I see a bunch of Links HITTING uair, then getting punished because of how much lag it has... I personally only like the move for pestering top platforms, high % combos, or when absolutely nothing else will hit.
 

EmptySky00

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Idk man we can juggle other characters with it who don't go through Spacie-stun. Maybe mid percents. Utilt is probably better, but I seriously think Uair could work under some circumstances.
 

Wolf_

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ok so KDJ doesn't want to use Zelda against me anymore, now it's Marth, I know a decent amount about the matchup, but anyone care to share some good knowledge on it I might not know?
 

Heero Yuy

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I agree with Pug. However against fast fallers I feel like it's pretty efficient as a comboer at low-mid percents. L-cancelled Uairs especially.

@Wolf Not very experienced against Marth myself. I know that you're gonna want to get him in the air and keep him there with your anti-air moves.

Played some Sheiks today. Will probably post my notes later.
 
D

Deleted member

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ok so KDJ doesn't want to use Zelda against me anymore, now it's Marth, I know a decent amount about the matchup, but anyone care to share some good knowledge on it I might not know?
its all about playing the mid range game. whiff punishing and getting combos off of projectiles at mid range is extremely easy. DAC and zair can be used to whiff punish on reaction, i personally dont use zair that much though. Abusing projectiles is huge, boomerang combos free at every %. Dthrow dair/fair is your kill combo.

recovering can be hard but aerial glide toss helps if he follows you off stage. i always cover my recovery with a boomerang, usually it's hard for marth to deal with unless you throw it too late. knowing how to sweet spot the ledge with up b is a must. knowing how to DI out of combos and how to DI marth's fast kill moves will be the biggest thing to learn.
 

Pug

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I play a Marth main pretty frequently and I agree with Sean, mid-range is the place to be. He'll probably be coming at you high with fairs but with good spacing that shouldn't be difficult to deal with.

Get used to throwing out a boomerang from a ledgehop because sometimes he likes to sit a bit back from the ledge and try and tip-smash you as you come up.

Zair is great against Marth, but I'd only use it to punish because many of Marth's sword attacks can beat its range.
 

EmptySky00

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We need our frame data updated <_< It's been almost a year and a half now.
 
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Wolf_

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AVOID. THE. KDJ. SPIKES.
Like it's that easy lol, at a certain %, Fthrow offstage into spike is guaranteed, I play Marth too I just need to figure out what percent, but I just need to stay away from the ledge, offstage it's not hard for Marth to gimp Link
 

EmptySky00

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I don't know, Zair has pretty long range. It could be that he's ducking under it, as that slippery ******* is wont to do. Or he's hitting your arm. But I think in raw range, he doesn't really outspace it. What move are we talking here? Fsmash?
 

EmptySky00

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Neat. Smashboards glitched up and double posted. Mea culpa.

Only not really.
 
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D

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zair really sucks in this game, only time i ever use it is for a retreating zair because you can hitconfirm that into a DAC
 

Pug

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Zair is great! It does take a bit of practice to get the distance right for both hits though. Once you've got that down it's awesome.

If I'm wrong about fair then I need to be using zair much more often. No more boomerang getting batted away for me!

Of course his other approach is usually running shield. If I'm quick I might be able to grab him out of it? Depends how close he is.
 
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EmptySky00

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I don't think you have enough time to grab him after a shielded Zair. Your grab is slow, Zair has 10 frames of landing lag, and I don't think the shield stun is that high. Iirc the first hit was 4% and the second was 6%? And what was the formula for shield stun? (%+3)/2 or something? So you're at disadvantage. But you have distance to do something else if you predict how he'll try to rush at you.
 

Player -0

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Approaching with Zair may be a bad idea. If the opponent runs in at the same time they'll get hit by the uber weak first hitbox and get a free pressure on Link. I would stick with Nair/Fair for aerial approaches. Maybe Bair maybe.
 

Fenrir VII

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Marth is probably my least favorite matchup in the game right now. Not because I think it's all that bad (roughly even), but because I hate the way we have to play it.

First off, Marth should never be approaching from the air in the matchup. That's a false assumption. Marth's gameplan is centered around dash dance camping and applying pressure until you commit to something, then punishing the option you choose.. Generally with grab. Marth also LOVES to approach with running shield, which is really hard to deal with.

So to successfully play this matchup, you have to do everything you can to avoid getting grabbed. This is not the easiest thing to do, as I'm sure you know. It doesn't help that most of Link's best offensive options are fairly easy to read and punish.

Zair... Going to say this, zair shouldn't be used much in the matchup.. Mostly because Marth stays low to the ground, so you have to delay your SH to land it (allowing Marth time to get around it), and it's easy to shield and we get grabbed. The only time I will use it is when Marth is on a platform, or when there's no chance of him being close enough to punish.

Boomerang. Use it less than you would in a normal matchup. It's not useless, but riskier than we are accustomed to. Marth can run under it or running shield it and get right in your face. For this reason, I personally think a standing rang is safer/better than a sh one because it's faster and doesn't require you to give up position to use it.

Shield. NEVER shield in the neutral. Unless Marth is recovering or getting up, shield is a terrible option. Use jab jab or spot dodge/roll instead. Again, if Marth's main attack is grab, shield doesn't help you.

Grab.. This is tough because we get great follow-ups out of grab (dthrow to utilt to Bair to regrab, for one; dthrow to dair for killing, etc). But it's really risky, so only use it if you're reasonably sure it will land, or after a setup (jab jab, Bair, Nair, rang etc)

Essentially, we have to play slap fight with him, using safe, fast moves like jab jab or Bair (or well spaced fairs) until something else is safe enough to use. The important thing is not to give up position, because Marth can really pin you down quickly.

Recovery, Marth can drop down and fair you to death... It's really a guessing game, as we can stall and either go high or really low to get around it. Just don't be predictable. Covering your path with bomb, rang, and Nair is a good idea.

Edgeguarding, jump off Nair or bomb drop off the edge to hit him on the pop up are the best options I've found, if the marth can sweetspot. Also arrowing him on the way down when he's trying to recover from a big hit is a kill... Marths always try side b to throw us off, so just wait that out.

The other area that I have problems with is getting off the ledge... He'll try to wavedash back to grab or fsmash, which covers a shocking number of our options... Just keep with the mixups and try to avoid his punishes.

One other tidbit. ALWAYS DI down + away from him for a grab or Combo. It doesn't always seem to work, but it's more consistent than any other DI
 
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Heero Yuy

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@ Pug Pug The rang, Nair, and Uair come to the rescue. If the Marth makes the mistake of flying towards you with a Fair, it honestly leaves him open for a lot of punishment. Marth lacks options in the air as opposed to Link, and our character's good anti-aerial game will really come in handy.

Roy IMO is like the Marth matchup but much harder since his spacing works differently. Not to mention the amount of pressure he can put on Link is incredible. Definitely one of my least favorite so far. Have faced more Roys than Marths in the past.
 

Wolf_

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Marth is probably my least favorite matchup in the game right now. Not because I think it's all that bad (roughly even), but because I hate the way we have to play it.

First off, Marth should never be approaching from the air in the matchup. That's a false assumption. Marth's gameplan is centered around dash dance camping and applying pressure until you commit to something, then punishing the option you choose.. Generally with grab. Marth also LOVES to approach with running shield, which is really hard to deal with.

So to successfully play this matchup, you have to do everything you can to avoid getting grabbed. This is not the easiest thing to do, as I'm sure you know. It doesn't help that most of Link's best offensive options are fairly easy to read and punish.

Zair... Going to say this, zair shouldn't be used much in the matchup.. Mostly because Marth stays low to the ground, so you have to delay your SH to land it (allowing Marth time to get around it), and it's easy to shield and we get grabbed. The only time I will use it is when Marth is on a platform, or when there's no chance of him being close enough to punish.

Boomerang. Use it less than you would in a normal matchup. It's not useless, but riskier than we are accustomed to. Marth can run under it or running shield it and get right in your face. For this reason, I personally think a standing rang is safer/better than a sh one because it's faster and doesn't require you to give up position to use it.

Shield. NEVER shield in the neutral. Unless Marth is recovering or getting up, shield is a terrible option. Use jab jab or spot dodge/roll instead. Again, if Marth's main attack is grab, shield doesn't help you.

Grab.. This is tough because we get great follow-ups out of grab (dthrow to utilt to Bair to regrab, for one; dthrow to dair for killing, etc). But it's really risky, so only use it if you're reasonably sure it will land, or after a setup (jab jab, Bair, Nair, rang etc)

Essentially, we have to play slap fight with him, using safe, fast moves like jab jab or Bair (or well spaced fairs) until something else is safe enough to use. The important thing is not to give up position, because Marth can really pin you down quickly.

Recovery, Marth can drop down and fair you to death... It's really a guessing game, as we can stall and either go high or really low to get around it. Just don't be predictable. Covering your path with bomb, rang, and Nair is a good idea.

Edgeguarding, jump off Nair or bomb drop off the edge to hit him on the pop up are the best options I've found, if the marth can sweetspot. Also arrowing him on the way down when he's trying to recover from a big hit is a kill... Marths always try side b to throw us off, so just wait that out.

The other area that I have problems with is getting off the ledge... He'll try to wavedash back to grab or fsmash, which covers a shocking number of our options... Just keep with the mixups and try to avoid his punishes.

One other tidbit. ALWAYS DI down + away from him for a grab or Combo. It doesn't always seem to work, but it's more consistent than any other DI
Ok I really like this post as I feel the same way and agree with it, just a few questions, the setups into grab, when I try Bair on Marth, he always has enough time to do an Uair before I can grab, in what way are you using the Bair? For the jab jab setup, first I'm assuming this is if Marth doesn't crouch cancel, cause if he does your getting a Dtilt, but if he doesn't, do you do a standing grab or a running grab? Because in my experience, the Marth will SDI away, forcing me to dash grab, giving him enough time you Uair me in the face. And for Nair, are you talking a FF soft hit Nair? I need to know this stuff cause the only way I ever get grabs is off of baiting an approach into turn-around grab, I've never been able to successfully do a set-up into grab on anyone but newer players, everyone else seems to be able to spot-dodge

Also I'd like to add to edge-guarding, this has work for me consistently, if the Marth is recovering low, grab the ledge, re-grab with Zair to get invincibility until he gets close, then immediately drop B-air. I did it to Soft, KDJ always seems to recover high, and when he does recover low I'm usually too nervous to try and ledge stuff cause I think I might screw up and SD, but it's something I've been working on
 

Fenrir VII

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Ok I really like this post as I feel the same way and agree with it, just a few questions, the setups into grab, when I try Bair on Marth, he always has enough time to do an Uair before I can grab, in what way are you using the Bair? For the jab jab setup, first I'm assuming this is if Marth doesn't crouch cancel, cause if he does your getting a Dtilt, but if he doesn't, do you do a standing grab or a running grab? Because in my experience, the Marth will SDI away, forcing me to dash grab, giving him enough time you Uair me in the face. And for Nair, are you talking a FF soft hit Nair? I need to know this stuff cause the only way I ever get grabs is off of baiting an approach into turn-around grab, I've never been able to successfully do a set-up into grab on anyone but newer players, everyone else seems to be able to spot-dodge
Whew ok I'll try, but I normally just go with the flow of a match, so I'm a bit shaky on the percents and what's guaranteed. Assume I'm talking about mid %s for most of this.

First off, I've never been hit by uair after Bair or jab jab, or even been close to it, so I think it's just a spacing/timing difference.

For Bair, I try to keep spacing on it so I'm not in grab range, basically just tapping the second hit if possible. If it hits, unless Marth DIs down, I think you're guaranteed a turnaround grab. The other time I use it is after an utilt with Marth a little above me. That's a lot closer but works the same.

For jab, nothing is guaranteed, but you can react to DI and adapt. If he doesn't CC it and isn't at the tip when you start it, I believe you get the standing grab guaranteed. If he CCs, you don't get a grab and either need to rapid jab him or sh away rang. If he gets too far away, you've essentially just applied pressure and reset the neutral, which is ok imo. I wouldn't chase with dash grab under most circumstances. Zair is ok then.

If you're having an issue with spot dodge, it just becomes a read. Apply pressure, see what they do, and get the grab after the dodge, etc. Same with cc and dtilt... You should be able to jab jab, run away pivot grab that.

I never approach with Nair against Marth because shield grab, but if you hit it hard or weak in any circumstance, more often than not, you can use Marths landing lag to land the grab.

Like I said, most of that is a bit shaky, and at least a little bit dependent on what your opponent does, but it all can lead into a grab with proper play and at least is safe enough and applies good pressure back on Marth.

I appreciate the edgeguarding idea.


I also want to make one addendum to my earlier post. It seems I was wrong about Marth running under standing rang for most spacing (he still does if you're very close) which makes that a better tool than I was giving it credit for.
 

Wolf_

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Whew ok I'll try, but I normally just go with the flow of a match, so I'm a bit shaky on the percents and what's guaranteed. Assume I'm talking about mid %s for most of this.

First off, I've never been hit by uair after Bair or jab jab, or even been close to it, so I think it's just a spacing/timing difference.

For Bair, I try to keep spacing on it so I'm not in grab range, basically just tapping the second hit if possible. If it hits, unless Marth DIs down, I think you're guaranteed a turnaround grab. The other time I use it is after an utilt with Marth a little above me. That's a lot closer but works the same.

For jab, nothing is guaranteed, but you can react to DI and adapt. If he doesn't CC it and isn't at the tip when you start it, I believe you get the standing grab guaranteed. If he CCs, you don't get a grab and either need to rapid jab him or sh away rang. If he gets too far away, you've essentially just applied pressure and reset the neutral, which is ok imo. I wouldn't chase with dash grab under most circumstances. Zair is ok then.

If you're having an issue with spot dodge, it just becomes a read. Apply pressure, see what they do, and get the grab after the dodge, etc. Same with cc and dtilt... You should be able to jab jab, run away pivot grab that.

I never approach with Nair against Marth because shield grab, but if you hit it hard or weak in any circumstance, more often than not, you can use Marths landing lag to land the grab.

Like I said, most of that is a bit shaky, and at least a little bit dependent on what your opponent does, but it all can lead into a grab with proper play and at least is safe enough and applies good pressure back on Marth.

I appreciate the edgeguarding idea.


I also want to make one addendum to my earlier post. It seems I was wrong about Marth running under standing rang for most spacing (he still does if you're very close) which makes that a better tool than I was giving it credit for.
Alright I just need a little more elaboration on the Bair -> Grab, so you use both hits of the Bair right? What I mean is, sometimes I'll FF the bair so only the first kick comes out and then land, but you're saying hit with both I'm assuming, now assuming that, you would FF after the second hit and L cancel when you land, and then do you just turn around in place and grab, or do you run towards Marth a bit first and do a running grab? I'm bad at smash vocabulary so I'm not entirely sure what you meant by turn-around grab. I always end up doing a dash grab when I try this so my guess is that it takes more time to do than a standing turn-around grab, the reason I run first is because I always assume Marth will land first if I just stand in place and grab

For the jab jab, I always default to Spin Attack as a follow up after to get Marth offstage, I haven't tried doing a standing grab in a while, I always to to dash first and then grab, maybe that's my problem. Also as a note, at least I've found this, after your first 2 jabs, if you try to multijab or do anything really, Marth and a few other characters can grab you before you do whatever you're trying to do, I've had Fox Usmash me after the first 2 jabs when I tried multi-jabbing, so I've defaulted to going into shield if my first 2 jabs are CCed or blocked, have you experienced this at all?

I never thought of running away and doing a turnaround grab when someone CC's my jab jab, gonna try that, but yea I do a lot of reading spot-dodges in friendlies, it's harder to remember that in a tournament match though :/

For the Nair, you must mean the Nair doesn't send Marth into tumble right? Every time I land it, it sends Marth into tumble, I know it doesn't at low % but I always seem to land it at a mid % when he goes into tumble after the hit connects
 

Fenrir VII

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Alright I just need a little more elaboration on the Bair -> Grab, so you use both hits of the Bair right? What I mean is, sometimes I'll FF the bair so only the first kick comes out and then land, but you're saying hit with both I'm assuming, now assuming that, you would FF after the second hit and L cancel when you land, and then do you just turn around in place and grab, or do you run towards Marth a bit first and do a running grab? I'm bad at smash vocabulary so I'm not entirely sure what you meant by turn-around grab. I always end up doing a dash grab when I try this so my guess is that it takes more time to do than a standing turn-around grab, the reason I run first is because I always assume Marth will land first if I just stand in place and grab

For the jab jab, I always default to Spin Attack as a follow up after to get Marth offstage, I haven't tried doing a standing grab in a while, I always to to dash first and then grab, maybe that's my problem. Also as a note, at least I've found this, after your first 2 jabs, if you try to multijab or do anything really, Marth and a few other characters can grab you before you do whatever you're trying to do, I've had Fox Usmash me after the first 2 jabs when I tried multi-jabbing, so I've defaulted to going into shield if my first 2 jabs are CCed or blocked, have you experienced this at all?

I never thought of running away and doing a turnaround grab when someone CC's my jab jab, gonna try that, but yea I do a lot of reading spot-dodges in friendlies, it's harder to remember that in a tournament match though :/

For the Nair, you must mean the Nair doesn't send Marth into tumble right? Every time I land it, it sends Marth into tumble, I know it doesn't at low % but I always seem to land it at a mid % when he goes into tumble after the hit connects
Yeah no problem.
For Bair I ALWAYS use both hits. With proper timing on a fastfall, it auto cancels, so you don't need to Lcancel it. Actually it's a better idea to NOT try to Lcancel it if you have the timing, because it can delay you a bit. After that, I never dash grab. Essentially, I hold backwards while landing from the Bair, then delay a bit and grab, so link turns around and does a standing grab. If you nail the timing on this, it's really fast (about as fast as just landing and doing a normal forward standing grab).. I had a video of this but it was taken down :/ I'll see if I can get it back out there.

I've never seen people interrupt the rapid jab after the first 2... May need to rethink that if it's true. My problem with going to shield is that if they shield or cc the jabs, I expect they'd be wanting to grab... Hmm.
I love upB out of jabs once Marth is high enough % for it to send him away.

As a note, I really only use dash grab when pivoting ( or running turnaround grabbing) or when tech chasing.

And yeah for the Nair setups, typically I mean to get them at low % before the tumble. After the tumble starts happening, you can sometimes get the free tech chase grabs... Don't get those opportunities often on Marth, unfortunately.
 

Wolf_

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Yeah no problem.
For Bair I ALWAYS use both hits. With proper timing on a fastfall, it auto cancels, so you don't need to Lcancel it. Actually it's a better idea to NOT try to Lcancel it if you have the timing, because it can delay you a bit. After that, I never dash grab. Essentially, I hold backwards while landing from the Bair, then delay a bit and grab, so link turns around and does a standing grab. If you nail the timing on this, it's really fast (about as fast as just landing and doing a normal forward standing grab).. I had a video of this but it was taken down :/ I'll see if I can get it back out there.

I've never seen people interrupt the rapid jab after the first 2... May need to rethink that if it's true. My problem with going to shield is that if they shield or cc the jabs, I expect they'd be wanting to grab... Hmm.
I love upB out of jabs once Marth is high enough % for it to send him away.

As a note, I really only use dash grab when pivoting ( or running turnaround grabbing) or when tech chasing.

And yeah for the Nair setups, typically I mean to get them at low % before the tumble. After the tumble starts happening, you can sometimes get the free tech chase grabs... Don't get those opportunities often on Marth, unfortunately.
It auto-cancels? Wow, did not know, how do you make it auto-cancel? I hear people talk about it but I have no idea what it is

I think I get what I was doing wrong with the Bair -> Grab though, I get so worried that the tether won't make it in time that I try to do a turn-around jump cancel grab to make it faster, but I don't know if that works or is even possible lol, I end up dashing a bit first, but I tried this out, and sometimes Marth can jump after the second Bair hit before he lands, though I wasn't paying attention to his % so I'm guessing it's got a certain % range it will work at, do you know what % this is best known to work?

People do it all the time to me at SG, especially a Fox lol, they'll just run and Usmash before I can even get out my shield, idk maybe there's some specific timing to it
 

Hylian

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It auto-cancels? Wow, did not know, how do you make it auto-cancel? I hear people talk about it but I have no idea what it is

I think I get what I was doing wrong with the Bair -> Grab though, I get so worried that the tether won't make it in time that I try to do a turn-around jump cancel grab to make it faster, but I don't know if that works or is even possible lol, I end up dashing a bit first, but I tried this out, and sometimes Marth can jump after the second Bair hit before he lands, though I wasn't paying attention to his % so I'm guessing it's got a certain % range it will work at, do you know what % this is best known to work?

People do it all the time to me at SG, especially a Fox lol, they'll just run and Usmash before I can even get out my shield, idk maybe there's some specific timing to it
You just auto-cancel by doing the move in the first few frames of leaving the ground, you have quite a bit of time to auto-cancel it, it's one of the easiest moves to autocancel. This is how you waveland out of it like I posted in the video above. Autocancelling just means a move finishes before you hit the ground. If you full hop a nair and it finishes before you hit the ground you aren't going to try and l-cancel are you? nah, cause the move isn't out. Autocancelling is the same thing it's just you can't really see the moves animation ending because it's done during a shorthop and you can't see things that are like 1-5 frames.
 

Hylian

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Isn't there an autocancel window that's a bit before the end of the move?
That would be called IASA(interruptible as soon as) frames not an autocancel window. I don't think Links bair has any off the top of my head.
 

Fenrir VII

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That would be called IASA(interruptible as soon as) frames not an autocancel window. I don't think Links bair has any off the top of my head.
I thought it had some iasa frames right after the second kick, but that's based on nothing scientific, so it may just be the move ending earlier than I expect.

Bair is great btw.
 

Hylian

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Does anyone have any tips on what to do against a Lucas ?
Spam nair. When he's off stage, spam nair at him in the air.

Not even kidding lmao.
 

cmloe

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Spam nair. When he's off stage, spam nair at him in the air.

Not even kidding lmao.
Alright thanks man, i went to smash sundays and i was getting destroyed my lucas haha. Hes like fox but with good recovery haha.
 
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