Link Match-up Thread

[thedoctr11]

I'm having trouble with the Mario matchup. Have we talked about that yet?

 

[Third]

From what I understand and from my experiences, nair is your best friend since it goes through fireballs and also leaves an active hitbox in case Mario tries to approach. Mario doesn't have too many options coming down except his dair, which doesn't have a lot of priority at the beginning of the move. Link's uair does outspace the dair, so you should juggle Mario when he's in the air with uairs when you can. Mario's one of Link's hardest match ups in my opinion, but if you play defensively with lots of nairs and jabs, then you can shut down most of Mario's approaches and stuff like that. Make sure to use Link's long range and jabs to outrange Mario's stubby limbs. Also pretty sure we talked about this matchup briefly in previous pages, so you could see what was said before.

 

[Apollo Ali]

Last Q about Falcon matchup: What's the DI when he starts getting you in up throw up air up air knee shenanigans? Just always away? Up and away? Down and away?

 

[NickRiddle]

If it's u-throw > uair do SDI + DI up.
If it's just u-throw > knee, you just die if the Falcon's any good.

 

[SoggyEagle]

Sheik is unpleasant as hell to fight against... thoughts?

 

[Player -0]

Hey guys, that's all been very useful. Thanks. Big stages definitely have been working for me, and I'm less of a zoning oriented player anyway. Small stages, camp the ledges, nair it is.

@ Player -0 I basically was referring to what Third mentioned, which is that Falcon can nair through your boomerang if you throw a bad one and then convert into grab and combo.

The endlag is boomerang is so small that if you jump back and chuck it he'd already have to have been running at you (he's probably dash dancing so I guess that works) to punish you without eating a Nair or you having a shield.

 

[Apollo Ali]

It's actually a lot easier than you're describing. These are three different situations where it works pretty well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM9lN7hyYXg#t=2m28s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM9lN7hyYXg#t=3m5s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybNerCCXlyY#t=57s

 

[Player -0]

It's actually a lot easier than you're describing. These are three different situations where it works pretty well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM9lN7hyYXg#t=2m28s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM9lN7hyYXg#t=3m5s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybNerCCXlyY#t=57s

First one - Falcon was already in the air ON TOP of Link. Link should've just Naired/Baired/Airdodged Bair to Zair.

Second - You really shouldn't be on the ground while throwing boomerang. He angled it down which first off he probably shouldn't have done since SH renders that obselete and then he was standing still, jump back and rang.

Third - More standing still.

If I'm right next to the ledge I prefer to either advance with Zair/Nair/Fair then fade back with bommerang or jump back boomerang then AD down and Zair the ledge and "Haxdash" back on stage.

 

[Apollo Ali]

I don't understand why you're still pushing this with counter-theory crafting. I've shown you a few situations where it worked. And even in your counter arguments, Falcon has a ton of horizontal aerial mobility. Links short hop is dinky in comparison and it really doesnt matter much in ANY of those situations if he'd have SH'd. It still would have clanked and hit him. Anyhow, both Wolf and Nick Riddle, if you watch their videos, use standing rang occasionally. It has utility. You can't just dismiss it outright.

Falcon's Nair makes boomeranging on stage a potential risk. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Player -0]

I don't understand why you're still pushing this with counter-theory crafting. I've shown you a few situations where it worked. And even in your counter arguments, Falcon has a ton of horizontal aerial mobility. Links short hop is dinky in comparison and it really doesnt matter much in ANY of those situations if he'd have SH'd. It still would have clanked and hit him. Anyhow, both Wolf and Nick Riddle, if you watch their videos, use standing rang occasionally. It has utility. You can't just dismiss it outright.

Falcon's Nair makes boomeranging on stage a potential risk. That's all I'm saying.

I've given counter reasons why those situations shouldn't have worked, both situations if they did a retreating boomerang Falcon's Nair wouldn't have hit. Why does it matter if Link's SH is dinky? If he's retreating and a decent space away where boomeranging would actually be viable he should be fine.

The only reason why I'd use standing boomerang is if someone was offstage and I wanted to harass with it and they were using an almost complete horizontal recovery, and even then maybe no. If they're recovering low you want to SH so you can get the boomerang over the ledge so it doesn't bounce off or just pull a bomb (or Nair). If they're recovering high you want to SH to make your boomerang go higher.

Correct spacing of the move should make it so you don't have a possibility of being hit while pressuring. Of course if Falcon landing right in front of you after a Nair clanked your boomerang that's a bad spot but it's better than Falcon getting a 0 -> death on you.

 

[Hylian]

For what it's worth, I think standing rang is better than jumping. I used to think differently but after watching the chicago links abuse rang I starting trying it out myself and it gets you a ton of milage. Your opponent is forced to jump as if they shield you can just throw rang again and if they destroy rang you can dash back -> rang. Since they are probably going to approach from the air you can use one of Links 3 amazing anti-airs. Jumping back and throwing rang can make it arc and miss link giving your opponent time to get in and jumping forward reaps great benefits if it hits but more often than not just gets you hit if your opponent decides to approach in neutral at that time.

 

[Player -0]

For what it's worth, I think standing rang is better than jumping. I used to think differently but after watching the chicago links abuse rang I starting trying it out myself and it gets you a ton of milage. Your opponent is forced to jump as if they shield you can just throw rang again and if they destroy rang you can dash back -> rang. Since they are probably going to approach from the air you can use one of Links 3 amazing anti-airs. Jumping back and throwing rang can make it arc and miss link giving your opponent time to get in and jumping forward reaps great benefits if it hits but more often than not just gets you hit if your opponent decides to approach in neutral at that time.

For slower characters I think that makes sense with not having to go through the jumpsquat lag since they can't get on top of you in an instant but if you're up against a Falcon/Fox then they'll just Nair to you and get you.

I don't really try to get the boomerang to go straight back to Link because I don't rely on it for a Neutral game but it could be useful. I feel if you get the boomerang to come back to you and you're going to throw it again your opponent will be expecting it and will be more ready to punish.

I don't agree with jumping in with 'Rang either because any grab/OoS option is an easy punish.

What would be the 3 anti-airs?
- Nair
- Fair?
- F-Tilt?
- I can get some mileage off of F-Smash if spaced.

 

[Hylian]

His best 3 anti-airs are Utilt, Upsmash, and dash attack. Aerials can't be anti-airs by definition lol.

I don't have time to explain all of the rang situations as I'm editing 15 hours of smash footage from the tournament I hosted, but it's really just something I learned from experience.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I agree with Hylian... running shield eats up the SH boomerang because it forces you to give up position, and has a chance of running under the boomerang for a free punish.

Standing/Dashing rang (assuming good spacing) acts like a street fighter fireball... forces a reaction without giving up position. Link is hamazing anti-air, too.

I just wish so many chars couldn't just run under the rang...

 

[Player -0]

I agree with Hylian... running shield eats up the SH boomerang because it forces you to give up position, and has a chance of running under the boomerang for a free punish.

Standing/Dashing rang (assuming good spacing) acts like a street fighter fireball... forces a reaction without giving up position. Link is hamazing anti-air, too.

I just wish so many chars couldn't just run under the rang...

Couldn't someone just run up shield on your boomerang if you were standing still the same amount as if you were jumping back?

Of course vs. Mewtwo this is all rendered invalid. Dem teleports.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Couldn't someone just run up shield on your boomerang if you were standing still the same amount as if you were jumping back?

Of course vs. Mewtwo this is all rendered invalid. Dem teleports.

Yeah but a few things..

1. You get the boomerang out faster, so it is a small amount harder to punish (rather than "link jumped. I can rush in"
2. You don't have to angle the rang, so you're guaranteed the full horizontal area of pressure(assuming they can't just run under it) and get immediate rethrows
3. (the big one) you don't get backed into a corner. A standing rang is safer than a upward sh rang, and backward sh rang loses you a lot of space.

The problem most links have is getting backed into a corner and succumbing to pressure. It's super important to hold your ground or find ways to reset the neutral

 

[TSM ZeRo]

I played Emukillers Mewtwo with my Link (That took a game off of M2K's M2) and he legit 3 stocked me easy. He would up b stall/teleport camp to get an unpunishable shadow ball that beats all of Link's projectiles followed by teleport hover nair fair that you can only roll away from

 

[Player -0]

I played Emukillers Mewtwo with my Link (That took a game off of M2K's M2) and he legit 3 stocked me easy. He would up b stall/teleport camp to get an unpunishable shadow ball that beats all of Link's projectiles followed by teleport hover nair fair that you can only roll away from

If he always teleports in after a Shadow Ball FH Nair or Roll. Or camp with a bomb and AGT throw a bomb down. Got any videos?

Pretty much just try to camp platforms as much as possible until he approaches. Which might be never.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

If he always teleports in after a Shadow Ball FH Nair or Roll. Or camp with a bomb and AGT throw a bomb down. Got any videos?

Pretty much just try to camp platforms as much as possible until he approaches. Which might be never.

Sorry, meant he mixed it up with that approach that forces me to have no shield, roll away -get cornered- and I can projectile camp because shadow ball beats it and forces me to shield... but I have no shield! So then I have to jump or spot dodge, both of them punishable by teleport stuff or juggling. Platforms are not an optimal idea since being above Mewtwo is what he wants. He's really strong when he can use Uptilts and Up Airs.

 

[NickRiddle]

1. Bombs will stop Shadow Ball.
2. Hylian Shield blocks Shadow Ball.
3. Gotta learn the MU.

 

[Problem2]

I just finished testing this the other day. Mewtwo's nair goes through boomerang and deflects shadowball. As Mewtwo vs Link, I was getting in by floating nairs and occasional teleporting.

 

[NickRiddle]

Early rang beats nair, as does Link's sword.

 

[Wolf_]

I believe that at low percent, a boomerang won't send them into tumble and they'll have brief landing lag that you can grab if well timed. I get a lot of grabs off of weak boomerangs, but I've missed a few before, so it needs more testing to see how "real" it is.

I thought this was good at first too, but now everyone smash DI's away and Link's tether takes too long to come out so they spot dodge, at least that's been my experience

Except Link grabs people out of the air with his hand, so specific knock-ups can actually lead into grab reliably, mostly rang/dash-attack/dtilt.

On which characters specifically? I'd really like to know since I abandoned this trick a while ago because it seems like everyone SDI's down and away or up and away depending on the character, to either land on the ground early enough to spot-dodge or jump away

I just got home from a few hours of singles with a friend who plays Marth, Fox, and Sheik.

Marth wasn't particularly scary but Fox was a nightmare. He was all over me like knockers in a wind tunnel. The only way I could clear some space for myself was to shield grab and d-throw into up-B and try to get my projectile wall up again but it was an uphill struggle. In the end I won maybe 20% of the games.

I'm exhausted from the ordeal. I'm going to collapse now. Please don't let me swallow my tongue.

I have more trouble with Marth, Marth can shut down Link's projectiles with smart jabs and Fairs, I would recommend avoiding the use of bombs in those 2 matchups at anything but extreme long distance, those characters can close space up so fast

Especially with Fox, you gotta use boomerangs smart, if you just spam it, any Fox should be able to time in between throws and approach, there's a certain distance you can throw a boomerang and get away with it, any closer and you're gonna get ****ed

Also, don't bother with any OOS option except for spot-dodge and rolling against Fox, everything else is too slow and will get beat out by Shine, Jab, etc. just try to not make your rolls predictable

Why do we CG C.Falcon from 70 - death on FD?
Best game ever.

Falcon's I play against get out at like 35%...

It's really tragic that Link completely broke the ability to grab out of the air lol.

Oh God his combo game with that mechanic was absurd. Anything ---> grab ---> anything ---> grab ---> repeat as needed ---> death.
I wish there was a happy medium with it, but I guess I'm content. Until the boomerang comes back, hits them a pixel off the ground, and my grab goes right through them.

I was thinking like a certain extent of the tether can grab people out of the air, maybe 1/4 of the chain, or maybe just the first few frames where the claw is that would be equivalent to 1/4 of the total length, so people can still SDI away and not get grabbed but get grabbed if they mess up

Projectiles aren't great against Fox, or really any char with good mobility. They can just run around them or reliably approach with running shield..

Don't try random grabs against Fox. Wait for your setups, which include jab jab, Bair, fair, Nair, and anything that forces a knockdown (dsmash being a good one). If Fox full hops against you, run away-pivot grab is pretty free (depending on how they use double jumps)

Out of grab, you really have to get more than dthrow upB... Dthrow tech chase at low % guarantees a regrab or dash attack, if you're quick. Mid %s, get those utilt/dash attack staples out of dthrow or uthrow (%dependent). Above like 70,dthrow upB puts fox off the stage, which should lead to a Nair gimp. Any time after that, grab = upB or dair out of either dthrow or uthrow (just learn those combos by percent).

Any time Fox ends up on a platform above you, usmash under the platform is a surprisingly cover-all attack, and is unpunishable.

I say DSmash, it comes out ridiculously fast and covers both sides

Also I've found that 85-90% Upthrow -> Dair kills on almost any stage, anything over 90% forget it

Yeaaaah man! Got any EXP on Mewtwo? I found out a lot vs Fox with Aerolink, it's indeed hard for Link if the Fox knows what he's doing.

Haha awesome, but unfortunately naw, M2K was the first Mewtwo I ever played, IIRC it was a close match but he won, all I can remember is spacing properly was incredibly important, you don't want to get grabbed by Mewtwo, also mixing up recovery with AGT bombs is important cause Mewtwo can go deep and Bair you while you AGT up or when you're pulling out another bomb

I really only know how to deal with Melee top tiers unfortunately, and Ness, Mario(to an extent from Mr Lemon) and DK by now from going to SG but every other character, not a clue :/

1. Bombs will stop Shadow Ball.
2. Hylian Shield blocks Shadow Ball.
3. Gotta learn the MU.

Hylian Shield only stops shadowball if the mewtwo in grounded throwing them, if he's any bit above or below that level, it will either wack Link's head or knee, M2K knew this and spammed short hop shadowball IIRC

 

[TSM ZeRo]

1. Bombs will stop Shadow Ball.
2. Hylian Shield blocks Shadow Ball.
3. Gotta learn the MU.

Will try this the next time i play a mewtwo!

 

[EmptySky00]

My solution would have been to make it so he can't air grab people who are in tumble. Not sure how that would have balanced out.

Also, throwing a bomb into shadow ball seems suboptimal. You're not gaining anything from it really and he can put them out faster than you can put out bombs.

And Hylian shield never seemed that good to me. You're not advancing your position you're just saying "****ing stop that you twit. I'll wait here until you decide on what you want to do."

And then they throw **** at your head.

 

[Player -0]

My solution would have been to make it so he can't air grab people who are in tumble. Not sure how that would have balanced out.

Also, throwing a bomb into shadow ball seems suboptimal. You're not gaining anything from it really and he can put them out faster than you can put out bombs.

And Hylian shield never seemed that good to me. You're not advancing your position you're just saying "****ing stop that you twit. I'll wait here until you decide on what you want to do."

And then they throw **** at your head.

You can walk while using Hylian shield, just make sure Mew2 doesn't teleport ontop of the shadowball while you're blocking it with the Hylian shield or free hover stuff.

Don't bombs tank shadowballs and bounce off? Does it depend on how much it's been charged? If so then you can use the IGT to throw them out of the air.

 

[EmptySky00]

I had no idea. This changes everything.
#walkmegabushype


Still doesn't seem like it's that good. <_> I'd rather try to choose more active options.

 

[Pug]

I use the Hylian Shield so I can still threaten attacks while defending myself. It makes a slight difference when someone's trying to keep you on the defensive by using projectiles during their approach. It's a great feeling when Samus's fully charged shot disappears with no fanfare.

 

[EmptySky00]

I was playing this Peach once. She pulled a Stitchface. She threw it at me. I was moving around but somehow I must have stopped in that one moment and I heard the *tink* of the turnip hitting my shield.

Slid back about 50 yards from it. It was hilarious.

 

[Pug]

I love those Dragon Ball Z moments. Like when you trade with someone and you're both on high percent so you're both launched to the far sides of the stage.

 

[EmptySky00]

Best DBZ moment I've ever had: Played against this Peach. Last stock. Final Destination. Both at basically kill percents. I'm thrown far offstage.

I thought I lost. But I try to bomb jump anyway. Get back. He hits me off again. Bomb jump again, make it to stage and tech in to the center. About 10 seconds later we both trade. I'm sent flying to the side and he's star KO'd. He dies just before me.


This is why we need replay function back.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Played with a few Zelda's today and some things I learned:

- Comboing Zelda is rather difficult all in all. She goes rather high from a Dthrow and there's not much you can do other than Uair her. It's still a great punish from a grab.
- Note Zelda's airdodging capabilities from Farore's Winds on the ground. Like what the current note says, I would advice NOT to shield and punish if she's coming towards you with the telport. Rather, I'd focus more on reading the teleport, jumping out of her range, and spacing a Nair or Fair to punish. Out of the airdodge she can Dsmash and grab. Keyword: reading.
- You wanna avoid being above her the whole time. Her Nair is a deadly anti-air that can hurt you while on a platform.
- Din's aren't a really big deal seeing as though Link has amazing air mobility. AGT with the bombs if she throws you off-stage. It's your best hope for recovery. On that note, Link has the tools to prevent her from throwing out the Dins Fires. The rang will be your best friend. Clank out existing mines with the sword - not hard at all.
- I find Zelda not too difficult to edgeguard. Her recovery is long but is predictable. Pay particular attention to the angle. Is she trying to sweetspot the ledge? Use Nair. Somewhere on the stage? Chase her down and punish with a hard Dair or UpB.

My verdict for this matchup is 50:50, possibly even favoring Link. Like the Marth-Peach matchup, just space her properly and you'll outplay her, otherwise be prepared to get punished hard. Would study Wolf vs. KDJ for more insight on this.

 

[EmptySky00]

I play against Zelda a lot. My friend swears it's a disadvantageous MU.

But funny story: I remember before he knew how to DI the dthrow. Dthrow Dair killed her at like 60ish lol. It was hilarious and I felt like an ass abusing the **** out of it. Which is probably part of the reason they call it out as the Empty Sky combo whenever it happens. ******** lol.

 

[Heero Yuy]

I'll also note regarding Zelda that Nayru's can be a pain for Link. If spaced properly, you can punish it with a grab. However, it's even more troublesome when she love jumps with it - escaping your combos.

 

[Mr.Random]

Yo I had serious trouble against Fox. Not sure how to beat him with Link.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Keep him away with the projectiles, especially the rang which is really resourceful. When you get the grabs, almost always Uthrow him which lead to awesome combos with Uair. Link's not that good at handling pressure, so when he's pillaring your shield or just trying to mindgame you out of it with dashdances, try to focus on finding a hole in his pressure then Nair OoS.

Link's really good at edgeguarding Fox (and spacies in general), too. Weak Nairs off-stage will get you some crazy gimps. If Fox recovers badly, then UpB and send him plummeting to his doom.

Also note that Dthrow --> UpB is almost always an instant kill from 80% +.

 

[EmptySky00]

I feel like he can punish you hard for the boomerang.

 

[Mr.Random]

I feel like he can punish you hard for the boomerang.

Same. Any good counterpicks against Fox.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Keep him away with the projectiles, especially the rang which is really resourceful. When you get the grabs, almost always Uthrow him which lead to awesome combos with Uair.

gotta disagree with this part. I'm fine with uthrow into utilt, but uair pretty much kills the combo much earlier than you need to.

I personally believe dthrow is the best option. It gives link a guaranteed on-reaction tech read (assuming you're fast enough) that leads to either jab reset grab, standard regrab, dash attach, dsmash, or a couple other options.

Obviously you'll misread from time to time or cut a combo too early, etc... but against Fox/Falco, your goal should be a death combo from ANY grab.

I'm a bit shaky on the actual %s right now, but Link has direct kill combos from grab above like 60%. Starts out with uthrow > dair, then dthrow > upB, the dthrow > dair.

essentially I see the correct grab tree as something like this (everything is stage dependent):

Fox at 0%
Nair/Bair/Rang/jab/Fair setup into grab, or just well done pivot grab/etc.
Dthrow tech-chase into at least regrab x2-5

Fox at 20% - 50%
uthrow or dthrow (again % and stage dependent) > utilt > jab > regrab
OR
uthrow > usmash > tech-chase

Fox above 50%
essentially, death combo, or upB offstage > edgeguard.


Take all this with a bit of salt because I'm over-generalizing it... but this kind of stuff honestly works. Link is BRUTAL if he catches Fox, so you really have to optimize your punishments.

Also, I really don't think you should be using too many projectiles against Fox. At least use them very carefully when you won't eat an usmash for trying them.

 

[EmptySky00]

At lower percents I think you could continue with more followups after Uair on Fox. Uair juggles and stuff into more stuff.