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Link Match-up Thread

Fenrir VII

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Zair is actually not very good against DK at all. DK is very fast not slow and can CC dair longer than almost any character and can grab you from it leading to huge damage/death.
He can't shield or CC grab a SH Zair assuming proper spacing. I mean, he has a huge hurtbox so it's easy to get lazy with it and get grabbed, but assuming you do play the spacing game right, it's not a problem.

Properly spaced, it outranges all of his options and allows you to act sooner than he can punish you for it.

Now if you just Zair zair zair zair, etc, he can get around that and punish pretty easily, but to use it as a poke is never a bad idea.

EDIT just realized you said "dair" in the second sentence rather than zair... if that's what you meant, mah bad. But in that case, can you elaborate why you think zair is a bad idea?
 
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Hylian

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You cannot fast fall zair if you want to hit with the second hitbox. DK can CC zair, take the hit, and then dash forward and grab you because of his huge grab range and fast dash speed before you even land. The dair was just a typo. The only way DK cannot punish from a CC is if you are doing a full retreating shorthop.
 

Fenrir VII

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You cannot fast fall zair if you want to hit with the second hitbox. DK can CC zair, take the hit, and then dash forward and grab you because of his huge grab range and fast dash speed before you even land. The dair was just a typo. The only way DK cannot punish from a CC is if you are doing a full retreating shorthop.
But just.... space the Zair so the hit connects just before you land. I mean your statement is true if you just SH and throw a zair right away, but you don't have to do that... And "retreating" only matters if your starting spacing is off. With good spacing and delaying the zair correctly, DK can't punish...

If only I still had my videos. : /
 

Hylian

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Zair has two hitboxes. The second hitbox is the one that pops them up and towards you. You cannot put that hitbox out just before you land.
 

Fenrir VII

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Zair has two hitboxes. The second hitbox is the one that pops them up and towards you. You cannot put that hitbox out just before you land.
This is hard over text. I'ma look for a vid that shows this.

Essentially you start the zair around the height of your SH or slightly later, so the 2nd hit connects just before you land.

EDIT* well that was easy. Here's a vid of a Link ditto where each of them do it once in the first 0:15. White link does it from a SH, Green Link does it from a FH 2nd jump. You can act out of that nearly immediately (minus the normal land lag), faster than DK can close the distance and grab from a CC by FAR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K89YxJzoUgk

EDIT #2, around 0:44, @ Wolf_ Wolf_ does one ON shield, which really shows what I'm saying. It's safe, man
 
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Hylian

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You know moves are safer on shield than they are on CC right? lol. I didn't say DK could shield it and punish I said he could CC and punish. Because he can. Those zairs looked normal to me. I've played wolf and punished a zair with CC dash attack before so....(wolf also started using retreating zair, which isn't punishable by CC when he played me)
 

Fenrir VII

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Yeah I know, but unfortunately, there aren't easily accessible vids of this scenario. for the 0:44 one, yeah it was retreating, but I view this as more of a spacing thing because he needed the retreat to get the 2nd hit, and even then couldn't have perfectly spaced it

Agree to disagree I guess..

2 points though: A) Zair can be timed so that the time from the second hit connecting to when Link can act again is essentially Link's normal landing lag from a SH. B) Zair can be positioned (fairly easily) so that it outranges all of DK's options.

Combining those means that DK would have to take the hit on CC, dash, and grab/attack before Link goes through landing lag. He just can't do that if the Link player is aware of the move spacing / timing.
 

Hylian

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Yeah I know, but unfortunately, there aren't easily accessible vids of this scenario. for the 0:44 one, yeah it was retreating, but I view this as more of a spacing thing because he needed the retreat to get the 2nd hit, and even then couldn't have perfectly spaced it

Agree to disagree I guess..

2 points though: A) Zair can be timed so that the time from the second hit connecting to when Link can act again is essentially Link's normal landing lag from a SH. B) Zair can be positioned (fairly easily) so that it outranges all of DK's options.

Combining those means that DK would have to take the hit on CC, dash, and grab/attack before Link goes through landing lag. He just can't do that if the Link player is aware of the move spacing / timing.
Landing with zair has 10 frames of landing lag, normal landing lag is only 4 it's significant enough for DK to grab you after CCing your zair unless you are moving backwards with it. I understand retreating zair is safe but approach with it or using it stationary can get you grabbed. I play against DK all the time. I learned to play the game against a DK player and play one of the best dk's frequently. Keep in mind dk has an amazing dash speed and grab range and doesn't need to go far to get the grab. Even *if* it's safe links options are so slow up close that you can be put into a horrible position regardless relying on spotdodge/roll mix-ups because his dash and jump and jab are too slow to protect him.
 

Fenrir VII

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Like I said, I'll agree to disagree on this... I really feel like you're exaggerating here.

If Link's zair land lag is 10 frames (seems too high to me but I'm ok with that), the earliest Link can throw a jab is 16 frames, based on our old frame data (which should be at least mostly accurate for this).

In that time, DK has to CC the hit (Truthfully, I'm not sure what the stun on a CC is... let's call it 1-2 frames), dash a distance farther than Marth's tipped Fsmash (again I'm not sure on the timing on this in frames, but let's be conservative and call it 8-10 frames to close the distance required for the grab), and throw a grab (8 frame hitbox at the earliest from the DK data thread).

So the absolute earliest DK could close the gap and grab, from these assumptions would be LATER than the jab hits. Like I said before, I'm assuming good spacing on the zair... Also, since the goal is to hit the 2nd hit as close to the ground as possible, I don't see why "retreating" or "approaching" really matters, since it doesn't change your position at the time of hit, thus it doesn't change your position at the time you land.

All I have been saying is that zair is a safe poke, and I honestly believe that. There's a bit of predictability to it if you just throw it out like a madman, but even on a CC, you get some damage and can act before DK punishes, from my experience and the pseudo frame analysis above. If they don't CC it, you get a huge punish for it, so the risk reward for using it is pretty skewed toward the positive for Link, again imo.

I'll drop this topic after this, to avoid just a debate topic, but I think zair is a pretty valuable tool against any character that A) has a wide hurtbox (the fatties) or B) has a less-than amazing run speed.
 

Wolf_

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You cannot fast fall zair if you want to hit with the second hitbox. DK can CC zair, take the hit, and then dash forward and grab you because of his huge grab range and fast dash speed before you even land. The dair was just a typo. The only way DK cannot punish from a CC is if you are doing a full retreating shorthop.
This has happened to me before against Poob, which is why I use Zair warily against him
 

Heero Yuy

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I just can't see how Link gets hard countered by ZSS. The rang and bombs are really good tools for keeping her out, plus she lacks the range all-in-all to get near him. Yes she's got the speed but Link's got the sword to space her out. Even though she has hard punishes on him (which is probably her best bet), Link also has great combos on her as well. Once you get her in the air, she's toast unless she manages to mindgame you out with the DownB.

Feel free to argue. I'm only basing it on minimal experience fighting ZSSs.
 

NickRiddle

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So... Kirby...
Ducking and shielding are really good against Link. Didn't realize how much better Chu was than every other Kirby alive.
I want to play him more because I feel like I didn't up-b enough and that may have won me at least a game. :(
 

NickRiddle

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Honestly, I really wasn't ready for the amount of anti-boomerang tech most of the top players displayed against me. Powershielding is 2stronk
 

Fenrir VII

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Kirby should not be able to get thru the jab wall, imo..

Projectiles aren't amazing against him though, with the possible exception of bombs.

Chu is a really smart player though... Any example of "just do this" just won't apply to that level player.
 

Fortress

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If nobody minds, I'd like to throw my two cents out there on what I've found success in against the few Sonics I've come across in the Northwest.

Sonic can be an odd matchup at best, and a frustrating one at its worst. With a strong pressure game, and solid movement, he can effectively move into Link's range and be gone before Link can do anything in time. Even Link's fastest options may not prove to be fast enough in most situations, but as per usual, N-air is going to be your best friend when it comes to quickly shutting down aggressive approaching options. Jabs can pop him out of Side-B while allowing for quick follow-ups, but the timing could prove to be difficult if you don't have consistent experience against Sonic.

N-air out-of-shield is an excellent option to relieve pressure and reposition (that is, when uB OoS would be too weak to kill Sonic), but be wary of staying in your shield for too long. Sonic's attacks allow him to shield poke very easily (being that his whole body becomes a hitbox, and a mobile one at that), as well as letting him move out of your range and remain a threat.

Sonic's movement is going to be your main problem in this matchup. Your disjoint can beat out his attacks, it's just a matter of having him consistently in a position to attack. Anything you can do in this matchup to hinder his movement is going to go a long way towards your success. Platforms can generally cover you from Side-B abuse, so good stage picks include Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Battlefield, or Wario Ware. Avoid anything that you'd avoid taking Puff to, which means high ceilings and long walls, and anything that can aid him in survival. Despite some opinions out there on him, Sonic boasts some strong survivability options when a player who knows good DI choices is playing him.

Along with your stage pick, your personal use of tactics will lead to success or catastrophic failure against this character. In my own experience, I've tried to avoid anything that gives up my own position and leaves me open for too long (longer than would be acceptable against most other characters). Dash attack, the DACUS, F-Air, Bow, and the like. I also try and avoid attacks that only hit a specific area on the screen, like Z-Air, B-Air, and even 'rang under most circumstances. I instead stick to attacks that encompass a large area that Sonic is bound to literally run into. N-air is a good way to move around safely, and D-air is an excellent way to punish any sort of homing attack approaches or aerial followups from below if they become predictable.

Bombs are a godsend in this matchup. Lay them out along the ground, and do it as often as you can. Trust me on this. Sonic does have the options to get around them, but an inexperienced or panicky Sonic can be taken advantage of when their movement options are limited. Boomerang can control space in some respects as usual, but I personally try not to be over-reliant on it in this matchup. Sonic makes the recovery off of throwing one feel like an eternity, and the less openings you leave for yourself, the better. Having bombs scattered about on the floor and platforms above you also make for handy projectiles to be thrown at any time.

Like I mentioned before, a good Sonic can live to some pretty ridiculous percentages, but all hope isn't lost. Though Sonic can escape any sort of pressure from below rather easily with spring escapes, the move as a recovery option is extremely linear, and pretty punishable. This is a matchup where a Sonic below the stage can be easily offed with a Hail Mary D-Air from above. It's something that's never expected (who expects Link to dive offstage with one of his slowest attacks?), is practically a guaranteed hit, and is absolutely brutal in terms of killing potential. A Sonic player hugging the wall of the stage is a perfect candidate for this attack, so try and find yourself in those situations where Sonic is below and near the stage.

Most of the usual in terms of dealing with pressure still applies here. uB OoS and Nair OoS to deal with and escape pressure, bombs to limit stage control, and... well, that's it, really. Sonic's a matchup that I personally struggle with a lot, but those are the sort of things that I keep in mind when I have to play against a decent one.

Any advice on the Sonic matchup that any of you would like to pitch in? Correct me on anything that you've tried and found no success with. This is by no means a "do this and you'll win against Sonic" post, these are all just things I've found success with.
 

Player -0

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I played against Darky online for one game on SV and the shield pressure was crazy. He can pretty much SHFFL -> Side B -> SH -> Homing Attack. The best time is to FH Nair when he Homing Attacks. The pressure varies though.

Nair OoS is actually a slow option unless the Sonic finishes so you pretty much have to roll.

You have to be careful with laying down bombs because Sonic is fast enough to run in, grab them with a WD and throw them back while punishing your movement or shield with free pressure.

Sonic does well on a ton of stages, it depends on the Sonic. I would almost disagree with the Warioware pick because Sonic has such strong movement on that stage and he kills you so early with Nair/Bair carryoffs to the edge of the screen. I think a decent sized stage with not giant blast zones is a good pick. Enough space where you can take a breath but not too far that your projectiles don't cover all of the stage (not that you'll be using them too much).
 

AthleticNerd93

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Comment for Sonic match-up. Speed is a major fact and the ability for Sonic's Up B can be bad. When using the recovery at low enough to escape your up B us down tilt right before he grabs the edge for a nice spike. If you dont spike, it'll combo into your air attacks.
 

Player -0

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Comment for Sonic match-up. Speed is a major fact and the ability for Sonic's Up B can be bad. When using the recovery at low enough to escape your up B us down tilt right before he grabs the edge for a nice spike. If you dont spike, it'll combo into your air attacks.
I'm pretty sure Link's Down Tilt is a meteor and even if it isn't if the Sonic's paying attention they can DI to the stage (if it has walls) and tech jump it. If at high enough percent Link's Dair probably pokes down far enough so you can spam Dair by the ledge like Falco for a kill.

Be careful for Homing attack when edgeguarding. If you see him doing it I would advise DJ Dairing or just Nairing depending on the percent. Just make sure Sonic is in front/belowish of you.
 

Heero Yuy

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Don't throw out the rang unless you know you're gonna hit him. Sonic can easily slingshot into Link's range WHILE he's throwing out the boomerang and he's open for lots of punishment. I'd definitely rely more on the bombs, so I agree with Fortress there.

You should almost always NEVER go for grabs against decent or above Sonics. I also only go for grabs when I jab cancel one. With a character as fast as Sonic, it's the safest way to do this. However, when you do get the grab, Link has A LOT of followup options after a Dthrow. From 0%, you'll get two free Utilts on him and you can continue to deal pain onto him for a while. Since he goes rather low after a Dthrow, you can Dair him to his doom at mid-high percents.

Link's also rather good at edgeguarding the blue rat. He's good as dead once he resorts to the UpB. Weak Nair if he tries to sweetspot the ledge, or semi-spike with the UpB if he flies straight up like a dumb rodent.

The Nair is hands-down your best move on Sonic. With the Nair you'll trade with a lot of his spins if you time it correctly. Even on the ground, if you L-cancel one from behind his sheild, turnaround immediately and pressure him with jabs. I'll also note that Sonic's awful in the air when he's not spinning. With Link's incredible anti-air game, you'll bop Sonic if you bring him airborne.

Sonic's a really tricky matchup, but I'd say it's even. If not it favors Sonic by just a little.
 
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GoldHazard

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Like I said, I'll agree to disagree on this... I really feel like you're exaggerating here.

If Link's zair land lag is 10 frames (seems too high to me but I'm ok with that), the earliest Link can throw a jab is 16 frames, based on our old frame data (which should be at least mostly accurate for this).

In that time, DK has to CC the hit (Truthfully, I'm not sure what the stun on a CC is... let's call it 1-2 frames), dash a distance farther than Marth's tipped Fsmash (again I'm not sure on the timing on this in frames, but let's be conservative and call it 8-10 frames to close the distance required for the grab), and throw a grab (8 frame hitbox at the earliest from the DK data thread).

So the absolute earliest DK could close the gap and grab, from these assumptions would be LATER than the jab hits. Like I said before, I'm assuming good spacing on the zair... Also, since the goal is to hit the 2nd hit as close to the ground as possible, I don't see why "retreating" or "approaching" really matters, since it doesn't change your position at the time of hit, thus it doesn't change your position at the time you land.

All I have been saying is that zair is a safe poke, and I honestly believe that. There's a bit of predictability to it if you just throw it out like a madman, but even on a CC, you get some damage and can act before DK punishes, from my experience and the pseudo frame analysis above. If they don't CC it, you get a huge punish for it, so the risk reward for using it is pretty skewed toward the positive for Link, again imo.

I'll drop this topic after this, to avoid just a debate topic, but I think zair is a pretty valuable tool against any character that A) has a wide hurtbox (the fatties) or B) has a less-than amazing run speed.
Concerning your last paragraph, Zair is useful on some characters that don't even have those properties. Catching a Captain Falcon with it is extremely useful and sets them up to be countered hard. He's not that big and he's also the second fastest character in the game.

Zair effectiveness is determined by weight, not size or speed.
 

GoldHazard

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If Diddy doesn't want to make it back, sure. @ Praxis Praxis
Well angle adjustment shouldn't always result in death? What if, in theory, diddly fully charges his UpB and pulls at a slightly back faded angle, couldn't he still theoretically grab the ledge instead of returning to center stage? His recovery isn't very linear, so couldn't a Diddy Kong use this to mix up his recovery to confuse an edge guarding player?
 

Praxis

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Well angle adjustment shouldn't always result in death? What if, in theory, diddly fully charges his UpB and pulls at a slightly back faded angle, couldn't he still theoretically grab the ledge instead of returning to center stage? His recovery isn't very linear, so couldn't a Diddy Kong use this to mix up his recovery to confuse an edge guarding player?
You are correct, but I showed path options at point 4. You can totally cover all options with the right position. For example, Marth and Roy's Fsmash covers all non-sweet spotted attempts at the ledge, and if Diddy shoots far and high he can WD back and Fsmash.

Basically, Diddy can shoot for the ledge, the platform, or the stage. You can generally cover all once he's charged too much to sweet spot.

Pulling back too far is death. My chart pretty much covered it.

There's only one angle that gets a sweet spot, and you go too far once you've overcharged.
 
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GoldHazard

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You are correct, but I showed path options at point 4. You can totally cover all options with the right position. For example, Marth and Roy's Fsmash covers all non-sweet spotted attempts at the ledge, and if Diddy shoots far and high he can WD back and Fsmash.

Basically, Diddy can shoot for the ledge, the platform, or the stage. You can generally cover all once he's charged too much to sweet spot.

Pulling back too far is death. My chart pretty much covered it.

There's only one angle that gets a sweet spot, and you go too far once you've overcharged.
Thanks for clarifying.
 

NickRiddle

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Assuming you're used to watching Diddy recover, you could notice when he points in that direction.
 

Player -0

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WD OoS helps deal with when Diddy is approaching with bananas but still be careful because I think sometimes Diddy can punish your reactions, especially since Link is so slow.


Having a banana might help you more than Diddy, leave it in front of you and spam your projectiles around it. You still have all the AGT stuff but no punting.
 

Jedisupersonic

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I was talking with GoldHazard about this earlier, but whats our best options against a Falco?
 

Fortress

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I was talking with GoldHazard about this earlier, but whats our best options against a Falco?
Don't pick Link. If you pick Link, abuse Hylian Shield, learn to powershield. Start U-throwing to uB at low percents and D-throw to uB at higher ones. Use use uB all of the time. All of the time.

Well angle adjustment shouldn't always result in death? What if, in theory, diddly fully charges his UpB and pulls at a slightly back faded angle, couldn't he still theoretically grab the ledge instead of returning to center stage? His recovery isn't very linear, so couldn't a Diddy Kong use this to mix up his recovery to confuse an edge guarding player?
Keep it simple. Diddy will be in one of two places on his recovery: sweetspotting the ledge, or not sweetspotting the ledge. If he goes too far for a ledge sweetspot, just get ready for an easy edgeguard from the stage.

As for on-stage play, I like to take advantage of 'nanners. Pick them up, toss them, wait for a predictable or newer Diddy to go try and pick it up, and just take advantage of that.
 
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Jedisupersonic

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Don't pick Link. If you pick Link, abuse Hylian Shield, learn to powershield. Start U-throwing to uB at low percents and D-throw to uB at higher ones. Use use uB all of the time. All of the time.
Ok will keep in mind haha, I have plenty of backups to throw at a Falco too.
 

Fortress

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Ok will keep in mind haha, I have plenty of backups to throw at a Falco too.
Only other advice I really have against Falco in the Link MU:

  • Avoid 'rang, it's slow, and lasers don't care about it. Falco's pretty small to begin with, so stick to using it strictly as a combo extender. Using it to set up for uB kills at the ledge or on a platform is a pretty neat way to use it.
  • Try and avoid shield grabbing. Dash Attack goes right past you, as does fSmash. If you have to go for shield grabs, wait for slower attacks like dTilt.
  • Try and remain 'mid-range' for the match. I've found no personal success in playing full-range games, since I just eat lasers, and going close-range can be disastrous if Falco's prepared for you. Just stay mid-range, force out the only thing he can feasibly hit you with (a laser), block, and wait for the inevitable shine/dair approach. Bait that out, and just punish with a nAir block or uB.
  • Falco off-stage is a priority. If you need to fThrow him three times to do it, do so. Just get him off-stage. fThrow at lower percents (I believe) will not knock Falco down, so it may be possible to sneak two in a row on him if he's not ready for it.
  • Once off-stage, break down Falco's only two options, and keep your response swift and simple: Knock him off-stage and he's above the ledge? He'll probably come in with sB. Whip out a bomb, and time an aerial drop to punish Phantasm. What you're going for is something like this:
[collapse=Skip to 6:39]
[/collapse]
  • If Falco is recovering from below, just ball out with a nAir or bAir. Anything to just tap him and move him the slightest distance away.
If you need to sacrifice a stock to do it (provided you're up), go for it. Anything to give the impression that you are the aggressive player, and that you are being more dominant in the match than Falco against Link. Anything you can do to make Falco hesitate or lay off of pressuring you for even a few seconds will go a long way towards success in this matchup. Just don't give him an inch, and get Falco thinking that you can pressure just as hard. Keep it simple, and fast; nairplane all day.
 
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GoldHazard

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Only other advice I really have against Falco in the Link MU:

  • Avoid 'rang, it's slow, and lasers don't care about it. Falco's pretty small to begin with, so stick to using it strictly as a combo extender. Using it to set up for uB kills at the ledge or on a platform is a pretty neat way to use it.
  • Try and avoid shield grabbing. Dash Attack goes right past you, as does fSmash. If you have to go for shield grabs, wait for slower attacks like dTilt.
  • Try and remain 'mid-range' for the match. I've found no personal success in playing full-range games, since I just eat lasers, and going close-range can be disastrous if Falco's prepared for you. Just stay mid-range, force out the only thing he can feasibly hit you with (a laser), block, and wait for the inevitable shine/dair approach. Bait that out, and just punish with a nAir block or uB.
  • Falco off-stage is a priority. If you need to fThrow him three times to do it, do so. Just get him off-stage. fThrow at lower percents (I believe) will not knock Falco down, so it may be possible to sneak two in a row on him if he's not ready for it.
  • Once off-stage, break down Falco's only two options, and keep your response swift and simple: Knock him off-stage and he's above the ledge? He'll probably come in with sB. Whip out a bomb, and time an aerial drop to punish Phantasm. What you're going for is something like this:
[collapse=Skip to 6:39]
[/collapse]
  • If Falco is recovering from below, just ball out with a nAir or bAir. Anything to just tap him and move him the slightest distance away.
If you need to sacrifice a stock to do it (provided you're up), go for it. Anything to give the impression that you are the aggressive player, and that you are being more dominant in the match than Falco against Link. Anything you can do to make Falco hesitate or lay off of pressuring you for even a few seconds will go a long way towards success in this matchup. Just don't give him an inch, and get Falco thinking that you can pressure just as hard. Keep it simple, and fast; nairplane all day.
Nairplane. All. Day.

But yeah, this is good advice to assist in the falco matchup, which I personally believe to be links hardest MU. Falco transferred so well from melee and can still shield pressure and punish even the smallest mistakes. Shine combos are most likely death, and due to Links weight, he's absolute combo fodder for most of Falco's tricks.
 
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