Let's talk about L-Canceling.

[Vkrm]

If they made the few things you can do in brawl stupid hard, it wouldnt make it a good game.

 

[Big-Cat]

There can still be tech skill without lcanceling dude.

Shh! Do you want his head to implode from thinking about that?

Actually, go ahead.

 

[Kink-Link5]

This is literally just an issue of where someone wants to draw the line on something.

 

[Biz_R_0]

@Vkrm, first off oh my god dude shut up about Brawl. We get it, you hate Brawl, the reason why people can't stand Melee fans is because of people like you who have to work their hatred of Brawl into every sentence they speak/type. Second, that's a slippery slope you've got there. The idea that not pressing a button when you land an aerial would definitely eventually lead to Smash being a turn-based RPG where it takes literally no skill to do anything is absurd.

@Joe no literally the only way to prevent Smash Bros. from becoming a TCG is pressing a button to do something that could easily be automatic.

@everyone else

Spoiler

check my trips

 

[Arcansi]

This is literally just an issue of where someone wants to draw the line on something.

This is what I tried to say at the start, with the spectrum.

Most people decided to not read that post or something, though.

I wouldn't. It would be the first step towards a smash game with no tech skill. People who have really clean inputs have an advantage in most good games. Even in brawl although it's way less noticeable. That being said, they shouldn't add tech skill for the sake of tech skill. They should give us back the control we had in melee.

It should be noted that control implies choice, which is something L-cancelling has a lack of, from what I understand. (Unless hitting someone's shield and whiffing vs spotdodge change the timing THAT much.)

 

[Vkrm]

I'll try to let up on the brawl bashing, scouts honor. You're absolutely right how taking the emphasis of physical skill will affect smash. I guess I'm just one of those weird people who felt like melee kept it simple where it needed to be. The game is complex in other aspects, but not so complex that reducing control would make sense.


Control is control. I didn't need to imply anything.

 

[Arcansi]

I'm going to filter out everything nonsensical, worthless, and irrelevant in your post then.

This means I have to scan my post to mean you don't miss stuff//leave important stuff out, but that's fine.

They CAN physically get better as long as its humanly possible. They just don't. Never do they realistically reach a skill plateau.

Either they can get better or they can't. Which one are you saying here? 'They can get better but don't' isn't something that actually happens, as they will get more accurate simply by wanting too, albeit slowly. And most high-level players devote time to getting better, also.

Nobody said that it was only a high-execution only mechanic, doofy. You're not even responding to anything anyone is saying.

My main point got lost somewhere by now, so I'm just going to restate it rather then find out what went wrong where.

Mechanics that are only high in tech skill, and do not require quick thinking or yomi on a fundamental level, can have an outside source of yomi put into the equation in the form of:

'Can I actually do this, or not?'

But, this is essentially 'false' yomi, as it disappears as soon as someone can do it extremely consistently.

Your claim was that the yomi only applies based on the potential inconsistency of an executioner to be able to perform a command. So it's false. That's a non sequitur.

Arguing with you is like trying to argue with someone under the effect of DMT.

In my original claim, I was talking about a fundamentally different mechanic than shield pressure, and as such, my claim does not extend to it.

I have no idea what the effect of DMT is.

 

[Life]

I like TCGs. (It's not a TCG but someone made a Captain Falcon homebrew Yomi character. It was kinda funny.)

 

[Vkrm]

For players who have taught themselves to do them, complex inputs are more fun to do. Subjective i guess. That's beside the point. The thing is, nothing in melee was more complex than it had to be. Some people think canceling is. I disagree because of how difficult inputs affect balance.

 

[Arcansi]

For players who have taught themselves to do them, complex inputs are more fun to do. Subjective i guess. That's beside the point. The thing is, nothing in melee was more complex than it had to be. Some people think canceling is. I disagree because of how difficult inputs affect balance.

Difficulty doesn't affect balance unless high level players cannot be consistent with the tech in question.

Are you saying high level players cannot consistently l-cancel in certain scenarios?

 

[Vkrm]

Even top players miss cancels. Not all the time, but it happens every now and again. I don't see that as a reason to remove it.

 

[Big-Cat]

Consistency, at least in this context, doesn't mean that it happens all the time, but rather that it happens most of the time.

Yeah, I'm arguing semantics, but we should clear this up. At least for a fighting game, a 60-70% rate of pulling off something is considered consistent due to the various mental factors and human error preventing it from being 100% perfect.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Revamped point; it can easily be automatic, and because of that it's pretty much just skill for the sake of skill. Like if a game was made where the only compatible controllers were impossible to play with anything but your buttcheeks. Sure, it would take more skill, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good thing.

 

[Vkrm]

It isn't skill for the sake of skill. Canceling adds a step to every combo and block string in the game. A lot of the tactics that have really specific counters, end up being harder to execute. Not to mention having to properly time an lcancel gives the defender an additional chance to screw over the attacker. Manual l canceling affects balance in a positive way. If you play the game with more skill, with more consistency, you have advantage.

 

[Biz_R_0]

It isn't skill for the sake of skill. Canceling adds a step to every combo and block string in the game.

And this would not be possible by just cutting the landing lag in half automatically because

A lot of the tactics that have really specific counters, end up being harder to execute.

So it just makes it more complicated, which it needs to be or else

Not to mention having to properly time an lcancel gives the defender an additional chance to screw over the attacker.

And having *** controllers would give someone the same advantage.

 

[Vkrm]

Some people have bigger butts than others. I would have a hard time on account of my donk, so no. it wouldnt be any more fair. I already thought using our hands was plenty fair enough, assuming you have two functioning hands.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Yes, playing with your hands was perfectly fine, but it takes so much more skill to play with your butt. Do you hate skill?

 

[Arcansi]

Yes, playing with your hands was perfectly fine, but it takes so much more skill to play with your butt. Do you hate skill?

Because playing with my butt is something I am used to from the game Butt Fighter 2, I support this mechanic.

It is good here because it was good there.

 

[Vkrm]

I'd agree if I had more control over my butt than I do with my hands. Assuming that if booty control schemes are invented and give me more opportunities to apply my skill i won't ever use my controller again.

I really get the feel that if you guys COULD be convinced that l cancel is a good thing. Better posters like kink and noirscythe would have done so already.

 

[Arcansi]

I'd agree if I had more control over my butt than I do with my hands. Assuming that if booty control schemes are invented and give me more opportunities to apply my skill i won't ever use my controller again.

I really get the feel that if you guys COULD be convinced that l cancel is a good thing. Better posters like kink and noirscythe would have done so already.

It's inherently an opinion-based thing, so eh.

The main thing I see here is that you see l-cancelling as another opportunity to apply your skill.

Would you say that making jump be a more complex input would also be the same thing?

Would you support such a thing being added to your game? It would do the same thing as L-cancelling, in essence.

 

[Vkrm]

Jumping already functions fine. It doesn't need to be revamped.

 

[Arcansi]

Jumping already functions fine. It doesn't need to be revamped

Landing while doing an aerial functions fine in Brawl, doesn't need to be revamped.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Do you get a kick out of spreading misinformation Arcansi? Or are you just misinformed yourself to think Brawl's landing lag is anything remotely acceptable?

 

[Vkrm]

Its a step backwards from melee. Not having the ability to cancel aerials at any height makes the game a homogenized mess of campy.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Laggy aerials has nothing to do with the campy nature of Brawl.

Melee is a campy game too.

Fighting games are campy by nature unless they're super dumb and let characters run in for free with no risk.

 

[Vkrm]

If the follow ups were a bit more dependable maybe people would......never mind, sorry kink, I'll be quiet.

 

[Biz_R_0]

I'd agree if I had more control over my butt than I do with my hands. Assuming that if booty control schemes are invented and give me more opportunities to apply my skill i won't ever use my controller again.

It's about the same, it's just harder to do so it takes more skill. Really, the only reason someone wouldn't want this is because they're not good enough.

I really get the feel that if you guys COULD be convinced that l cancel is a good thing. Better posters like kink and noirscythe would have done so already.

Better posters like kink and noirscythe

noirscythe

 

[Biz_R_0]

Do you get a kick out of spreading misinformation Arcansi? Or are you just misinformed yourself to think Brawl's landing lag is anything remotely acceptable?

"You're misinformed because you disagree with my opinion."

 

[Twinkles]

Well, consider falcon or ganon in brawl

I dunno if I'd consider the landing lag on either of them remotely acceptable LOL

 

[Biz_R_0]

That is an opinion that I agree with, although Ganon would still be awesome if his attacks weren't slowed down so much. Also, you can still just wait until after the aerial ends to land.

 

[Vkrm]

I can do more precise inputs with my hands than I can with my butt. doesn't that mean it takes more skill to play with my hands? I used to be into body building, it is way more demanding then archery. But there's a bit more skill to being a marksman.

 

[Biz_R_0]

You can do as much with your butt, the controllers are specifically designed to fit the buttocks exactly as well as regular controllers fit the hands. The only practical difference is that it takes more skill to use.

 

[Gea]

Also, you can still just wait until after the aerial ends to land.

Do you not understand that is what is being told to you? To effectively use aerials in Brawl you cannot just land with one at any time like in Melee. This is not helped by Brawl's landing detection.

 

[Vkrm]

Controlling by hand would still be superior because I won't do any harm to my body. It have to be brawl because I doubt I'll het the precision melee requires.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Do you not understand that is what is being told to you? To effectively use aerials in Brawl you cannot just land with one at any time like in Melee. This is not helped by Brawl's landing detection.

Until the aerial ENDS. As in, it is over, and then you touch the ground. Granted, the landing lag is still too big IMO, but it's not objectively horrible and game breaking like you guys are making it seem.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Controlling by hand would still be superior because I won't do any harm to my body.

It also has built-in rectum repairing super potions. The only difference is that it takes more skill to use.

It have to be brawl because I doubt I'll het the precision melee requires.

That's only because you're not good at it. Really, any problem you could have is a result of you just not being good enough, which is the point of it.

 

[Gea]

Until the aerial ENDS. As in, it is over, and then you touch the ground. Granted, the landing lag is still too big IMO, but it's not objectively horrible and game breaking like you guys are making it seem.

And a big part of spacing aerials in the other two games is being able to do them... at any height. You know, on grounded opponents as well?

 

[Biz_R_0]

And a big part of spacing aerials in the other two games is being able to do them... at any height. You know, on grounded opponents as well?

Oh, yes, I know how literally impossible it is to do aerials on grounded opponents because of how severely underpowered they are. I have to deal with that a lot as Wario, who's bottom tier solely because of this totally existent problem.

 

[Gea]

Oh, yes, I know how literally impossible it is to do aerials on grounded opponents because of how severely underpowered they are. I have to deal with that a lot as Wario, who's bottom tier solely because of this totally existent problem.

 

[Biz_R_0]

I'm sorry, I can't see your reaction image. Next time, try hosting it on anywhere else.