Let's talk about L-Canceling.

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"...at least those two concepts are closely tied to the actual meat of the gameplay (the process of getting the people off of the stage to start with). "

Thank you, Criminal. They act like I'm crazy when I say this is a far more fundamental part of the game than nearly everything else can ever be. Well, not quite as fundamental as "Hit your opponent, avoid their attacks," but still.
 

Smooth Criminal

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"...at least those two concepts are closely tied to the actual meat of the gameplay (the process of getting the people off of the stage to start with). "

Thank you, Criminal. They act like I'm crazy when I say this is a far more fundamental part of the game than nearly everything else can ever be. Well, not quite as fundamental as "Hit your opponent, avoid their attacks," but still.
You're welcome, Kink. I think it's important to learn that kinda crap early on playing Melee (or any iteration of Smash, really). Like, really early on.

Oh, and Noir? I just want clarification; I'm not trying to be argumentative.

Smooth Criminal
 

Gea

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Oh, so you're some of those people that embarrassing kid in class that says "The analogy between this guy and the wolf is flawed because the wolf has claws" much to the professor's demise. You don't seem to understand the point of an argument from analogy. The point is that they share the same properties that are used for the argument. Adding other details while they're not argumentatively significant to say that one side does not apply in the reasoning is a form of ad hoc.

About that side note, that was intentional. I was hoping you'd notice.
I think you're missing the point of the correction. If the comparison was made to help facilitate discussion about taking away superfluous execution regarding actions made by the player to do things that are not really choices at all, it was bogus and added nothing. This is not a disputation of minor irrelevant detail, this is you attempting to name another way the game could automate or reduce the need of techskill with no loss of player choice in the process and ignoring that player choice plays a role within the example you chose. To be utterly clear and redundant, within the context of the game, the entire point is lost because player input is important in this case.

All of this was and is irrelevant to bring up when discussing L-canceling. From outside of a techskill barrier point of view as discussed above, automating both of these impact how the game is played in very different ways. I stand by the statement and that all it does is make me question your knowledge of the games you are discussing.
 

Dingding123

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I GOT IT

I FRICKIN' GOT IT

DUDE GUYS
GUISE

ASSUME THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL MOD TO THE MELEE ENGINE
aAAAGH MY BRAIN

READ THIS CAREFULLY:

1.) A BIT OF LANDlNG LAG REDUCTION (~45%) IS NOW APPLIED TO ALL AERIALS EXCEPT FOR WHEN HITTING A SHIELD SOON BEFORE THE ATTACKING CHARACTER TOUCHES THE STAGE
2.) L-CANCELLING NOW MAKES EACH FOLLOWING HIT OF AN AERIAL SIGNIFICANTLY WEAKER BUT GUARANTEES GREATLY REDUCED LANDING LAG
3.) L-CANCELLING IS NOW DONE BY PRESSING L/R BEFORE THE LAST HIT OF AN AERIAL CONNECTS WITH AN ENEMY, RATHER THAN RIGHT BEFORE YOU HIT THE GROUND

WHAT THIS WOULD DO:

1.) MAKE THE GAME A BIT MORE FAST-PACED AND A BIT LESS DEMANDING FOR NEWER COMPETITIVE PLAYERS
2.) MAKE L-CANCELLING AN APPLICATION OF SKILL RATHER THAN TECHSKILL FOR THE SAKE OF TECHSKILL
3.) CREATE A SOLID COUNTERLOOP(?) OF:

L-CANCELLED AERIALS > SHIELDING > RAW AERIALS > CROUCH CANCELLING/TRADING> L-CANCELLED AERIALS
 
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**** double posts. I'm in favor of auto-merging.
Double posting is just an arbitrary posting barrier

-Current timing remains identical to Melee (within 20 frames of landing) and when executed correctly, reduces the landing lag of the aerial by 1/2
Melee is actually 6 frames window. Might be 8 frames but I'm pretty positive it's 6. Teching, on the other hand, is 20, and has a full on fail window 20 frames before like you described would be beneficial to L-canceling.

@DingDing
What do you mean by "each following hit"? That wouldn't apply just to multi hit aerials right?
 

Wobbly Headed Bob

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]What sort of properties? The fact that it's automatic? The two examples underlying the analogy are about as different as night or day, though. Wallteching doesn't exactly have the same effect on gameplay as l-canceling does. As you yourself (as well as a few others) pointed out, it's a whole 'nother ballgame if you had the ability to sit there and throw out "lagless aerials" for free. Wallteching does...what, exactly, analogous to this?

Smooth Criminal
Jesus Crust. At this point all I need to do is quote myself.

Here's a hint:

The relevant properties are the execution requirements compounded with the notion that it is never beneficial for the executioner to miss the command.
Oh, so you're some of those people that embarrassing kid in class that says "The analogy between this guy and the wolf is flawed because the wolf has claws" much to the professor's demise. You don't seem to understand the point of an argument from analogy. The point is that they share the same properties that are used for the argument. Adding other details while they're not argumentatively significant to say that one side does not apply in the reasoning is a form of ad hoc.
---------------


I think you're missing the point of the correction. If the comparison was made to help facilitate discussion about taking away superfluous execution regarding actions made by the player to do things that are not really choices at all, it was bogus and added nothing. This is not a disputation of minor irrelevant detail, this is you attempting to name another way the game could automate or reduce the need of techskill with no loss of player choice in the process and ignoring that player choice plays a role within the example you chose. To be utterly clear and redundant, within the context of the game, the entire point is lost because player input is important in this case.

All of this was and is irrelevant to bring up when discussing L-canceling. From outside of a techskill barrier point of view as discussed above, automating both of these impact how the game is played in very different ways. I stand by the statement and that all it does is make me question your knowledge of the games you are discussing.
You must have some sort of memory deficiency because that point was quickly acknowledged and the analogy was quickly revised to be impervious of it and make still comply with its argumentative purpose.

That's why we split walltechs on the stage where they aren't always advantagous and walltechs on the ledge where they're always advantageous.
Then let's make it automatic after a certain damage. :v
It was a problem and a revision I had already thought about but did not bother mentioning to not bloat my post. It only takes 2 sentences, and I thought no one would bring it up. Out of VKRM's analogies, you also still have perfect shielding too.

I think I get why you're clinging so desperately to your response though. You must have thought you had something brilliant to say, and now you're really trying to capitalize on it like the guy who keeps repeating the same joke and acts like people didn't hear him the first time.




Also, I would appreciate it if you guys would call me "scythe" instead of "noir", unless there's already someone you already call that. It's usually what I go by.
 

Dingding123

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Double posting is just an arbitrary posting barrier



Melee is actually 6 frames window. Might be 8 frames but I'm pretty positive it's 6. Teching, on the other hand, is 20, and has a full on fail window 20 frames before like you described would be beneficial to L-canceling.

@DingDing
What do you mean by "each following hit"? That wouldn't apply just to multi hit aerials right?
NO IT WOULD AP-...*ahem*

It would apply to all aerials. But yeah it would be easiest and most effective on a lot of multi-hit moves that hit 3+ times, or or moves that don't come out quickly but pack a punch. Which would make drills (more) valuable for everyone and not just fox.
 

Gea

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You must have some sort of memory deficiency because that point was quickly acknowledged and the analogy was quickly revised to be impervious of it and make still comply with its argumentative purpose.
Do I really have to do this? There are obvious problems with both of your band-aids, and if you really had the foresight to see these things prior to their mentioning, you should be able to see the exceptions to them even now. This is even ignoring how vague your "high %" amendment is.

I'll give you a couple of hints:
- Characters aren't always being hit outwards or downwards
- Not all characters recoveries are equal
- There are ledges above the stage level on some stages
- Giving vague information concerning specific details every time something is challenged about the example is ad hoc
- Forcing a player to still be able to do this manually when it is arguably more important (getting gimped at a lower %) defeats the purpose of automating it in the first place

If you are content with the powershielding comparison, why don't you drop this one as not a perfect example instead of grasping at straws.
 

Wobbly Headed Bob

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Do I really have to do this? There are obvious problems with both of your band-aids, and if you really had the foresight to see these things prior to their mentioning, you should be able to see the exceptions to them even now. This is even ignoring how vague your "high %" amendment is.

I'll give you a couple of hints:
- Characters aren't always being hit outwards or downwards
- Not all characters recoveries are equal
- There are ledges above the stage level on some stages
- Giving vague information concerning specific details every time something is challenged about the example is ad hoc
- Forcing a player to still be able to do this manually when it is arguably more important (getting gimped at a lower %) defeats the purpose of automating it in the first place

If you are content with the powershielding comparison, why don't you drop this one as not a perfect example instead of grasping at straws.
-Then make it for when they're not hit outwards or downwards. lol (If the initial velocity vector has a sufficient x-component, or a negative y-component, then automate it. )
-Make it character specific. (but, do you seriously expect me to go through every character to pretend that you have a point?) (Actually, making it a function of weight would probably be better, but I'm trying to look lazy.) (Actually, I think the vector component function fixes this too.)
-Make it ledge specific.
-Not in any fallacious sense however.
-Factor in available jumps.

Because it is so easily amended.
 

Vkrm

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My previous argument was kind of weak. If people call canceling an arbitrary skill barrier and I'll can do is point out that brawl has the same problem, I'm not going to be able to convince anybody. Games like street fighter and marvel reward players who actively improve their execution, I LIKE that. The only reason this discussion has gone back and forth is because we let some brawl dude define a kind of depth, reassure us that brawl has it, and we made the mistake of not jumping on his argument that everything else is a distraction. Even if you see skill gaps as a bad thing, you gotta admit that melee is a better game with LCing because of the freedom it adds. It makes me wonder why does the argument from the otherside shifts from being, "it's so easy it's redundant." to "it's harder than it needs to be. Prevents new players from getting good." l cancel being manual serves two purposes, it is a skill gap, but that's not always a bad thing. It adds balance as well, in melee the spacies have some really broken stuff, and it helps that it's a bit tricky to pull off.

:phone:
 

Gea

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I think that was a good post, Vkrm, and one I can pretty much agree with. I think people who present it as a skill barrier are ignoring that one can get away with sloppy l-cancels for a really long gradient of player skill as long as they understand the concept of respecting shields when doing aerials.

I mean, hell, look at how many years Melee was competitive when expecting someone NOT to l-cancel was a very common thing. It's only been in the past ~5 years that people have developed a much more consistent technical game across wider levels of placing at a tournament.
 

Big-Cat

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My previous argument was kind of weak. If people call canceling an arbitrary skill barrier and I'll can do is point out that brawl has the same problem, I'm not going to be able to convince anybody. Games like street fighter and marvel reward players who actively improve their execution, I LIKE that.
I do to, but I oppose execution tests for the sake of being execution tests outside of trial combos. Obviously, better execution results in having access to more options, as it should be.

Even if you see skill gaps as a bad thing, you gotta admit that melee is a better game with LCing because of the freedom it adds. It makes me wonder why does the argument from the otherside shifts from being, "it's so easy it's redundant." to "it's harder than it needs to be. Prevents new players from getting good." l cancel being manual serves two purposes, it is a skill gap, but that's not always a bad thing. It adds balance as well, in melee the spacies have some really broken stuff, and it helps that it's a bit tricky to pull off.
:phone:
This kind of reminds me of the Mishima EWGF as that attack's input is very strict and very quick, kind of sort like L-Canceling. Of course, the difference between the EWGF and L-Canceling is that the EWGF can be simply stuffed out by another attack, be succumbed to certain reversals, or sidestepped to go into a punishing combo. Is it a skill gap? Definitely as some BnBs of the Mishimas require you to juggle with that move around five to six times in a row.

That being said, I don't feel that the EWGF is quite analogous to L-Canceling as the EWGF has more weaknesses to it than L-Canceling and the same motion input for the attack can be used for other attacks or dashing so it's not the preferred option in every situation.

If we want to look for skill gaps or risk behind attacks, there are other ways to go about it while reducing landing recovery for most attacks. Things like making spacies aerials less safe on block can turn the attack into a high risk, high reward attack.
 

Wobbly Headed Bob

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My previous argument was kind of weak. If people call canceling an arbitrary skill barrier and I'll can do is point out that brawl has the same problem, I'm not going to be able to convince anybody. Games like street fighter and marvel reward players who actively improve their execution, I LIKE that. The only reason this discussion has gone back and forth is because we let some brawl dude define a kind of depth, reassure us that brawl has it, and we made the mistake of not jumping on his argument that everything else is a distraction. Even if you see skill gaps as a bad thing, you gotta admit that melee is a better game with LCing because of the freedom it adds. It makes me wonder why does the argument from the otherside shifts from being, "it's so easy it's redundant." to "it's harder than it needs to be. Prevents new players from getting good." l cancel being manual serves two purposes, it is a skill gap, but that's not always a bad thing. It adds balance as well, in melee the spacies have some really broken stuff, and it helps that it's a bit tricky to pull off.

:phone:

Because one of your analogies was weak doesn't mean that your argument overall was weak or ineffective.

The reason this thread keeps going back and forth is because people keep defaulting to opening statements like this one. Your post is basically the premise of the entire thread and something most of us have been arguing for. You can easily just see any twit reply to this post with the garbage argument presented in the OP once again though.

After a certain tier of responses and rebuttals, some people are just unable to understand logic, once again reiterating their opening statements as if it was rebuttal or they present an ineffective response and expect people to take it accept it. That's the reason it's important to discuss argumentation in arguments where people obviously don't understand it. If certain logical principles could just be established, we'd have less redundancy in this thread and less uneducated self-entitled loons pretending they made some sort of brilliant point while throwing around logic terms they don't understand and expecting people to accept it when their posts hold no weight.
 

Big-Cat

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You know what makes spacies so good on shield is more of shine and less of their aerials, right?
Honestly, I'm very out of touch with Melee and Brawl outside of my own research from time to time, but I do know that in some moment of derp, the shine was made to have only a single frame of startup, so I see what you mean.

Either way, I think what I said could be more or less applied to shine. I actually like the gravity stopping property of Fox's shine in Brawl so making it a momentum stopper in air could be something neat if done right.
 

Wobbly Headed Bob

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Honestly, I'm very out of touch with Melee and Brawl outside of my own research from time to time, but I do know that in some moment of derp, the shine was made to have only a single frame of startup, so I see what you mean.
Do we all agree that the shine should still have a 1 frame startup for the reflection property to kick in, but have like a 3 or 4 frame startup for its hitbox to appear like I think it did in Brawl? It would still retain all of its basic properties from Melee (like jump cancel), but it would be less broken.
 

Big-Cat

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Do we all agree that the shine should still have a 1 frame startup for the reflection property to kick in, but have like a 3 or 4 frame startup for its hitbox to appear like I think it did in Brawl? It would still retain all of its basic properties from Melee (like jump cancel), but it would be less broken.
That's a very good question. 1 frame anything outside of super grabs is usually a red flag in my book. Perhaps the startup frames have invincibility with the relfection and hitbox out at the same time? Of course, I'd still like to see the momentum stopping property in Brawl return along with Melee's Jump Cancel, but my concern is if the moves becomes too versatile - meaning it would degenerate tactics development.

EDIT: Here are some more ideas.
1. The shine has slower startup for both the hitbox and reflector, say, three-five frames of startup.
2. Down B to get the shine, but there is a very tiny window available to cancel for a feint by pressing B again. As a result, the reflection and hitbox come out later.
3. The feint can be used to exploit the shine's momentum canceling for approaching above the opponent and using approach mindgames. It can also be used maliciously if special cancelling is ever implemented.
4. The move is jump cancelable on hit.
5. Make shine not last indefinitely (minus shield break)?
 

-LzR-

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Shine is actually a very overpowered move in Melee. Comes out in 1 frame, is invincible, reflects projectiles and can be canceled with a jump. It's also literally unpunishable. It's probably even better than shuttle loop.

Oh and talking about the execution barrier stuff. Why do we need that in the first place? I wouldn't care if stuff was easy or hard to do really. It's the risk/reward thing that usually matters. Technical skill doesn't make a game more competitive really except it forces people to play home alone which is really really boring. Lack of Lcanceling is the last thing you can complain about Brawl. It has nothing to do with why or why not the game sucks.
 

Wobbly Headed Bob

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That's a very good question. 1 frame anything outside of super grabs is usually a red flag in my book. Perhaps the startup frames have invincibility with the relfection and hitbox out at the same time? Of course, I'd still like to see the momentum stopping property in Brawl return along with Melee's Jump Cancel, but my concern is if the moves becomes too versatile - meaning it would degenerate tactics development.
I don't like the invincibility idea because I like to shieldgrab and that would pretty much kill it the same way 1-frame shine hitbox already does and it sounds way safe. lol

Also, having the shine not reflect at frame 1 kind of makes it a much much more inferior to power-shielding (if it returns) as a reflecting tool. I think that since the shine's primary (intended) purpose was to reflect projectiles, it should enjoy being able to reflect projectiles at frame 1 instead of just canceling out the projectile.

Also, what do you think about melee Ganondorf's 1 frame jab. I'm actually fine with it.

The momentum also stops in Melee version of the shine, but the shine doesn't end immediately like it does in Brawl, you have to jump cancel it or commit to its shortest duration. I think being able to jump-cancel and have it end so soon like in Brawl would probably make it too good of a bait and spacing tool.
 

Gea

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Using shine to reflect as a good option would still need to be tweaked (as you kind of mention). Kinda like how the cape needs to be tweaked to actually be a good option for reflection and not just a situational deterrent. When you reflect something with Shine, you are stuck in it for a lot longer than is usually safe. If you've ever done the black hole glitch, think about how once you get the super scope shots between two reflectors, you can let go of the controllers and the spacies will continue reflecting back and forth until outside interference occurs.

Shines are a tricky thing because even at three frames they will be fast enough to beat out jabs... which wouldn't be an issue but the followups from both Fox and Falco's shines are way better because of their knockback. On the reverse side of the coin if anyone gets shine, it should definitely be the characters who are most susceptible to being death-touched by the rest of the cast.

What I'm really trying to say is we should give Roy and Bowser their own shines

Edit: the issue with shine not being used commonly to reflect projectiles has more to do with how long you're stuck in shine after the projectile hits and less about a couple more frames of startup compared to powershielding. Sure powershielding may be the superior choice from a rewards standpoint, but giving reflectors that can be more consistently used by a few characters of the cast isn't that bad of an idea. It would certainly allows characters like Doc to have a stronger game vs someone like Falco if he could cape more liberally.

Edit2: And shine is in no way better than shuttle loop considering some characters have no answer period to hitting a MK's shield, whereas shine forces the player to be at the very least aggressive to use it. Both are kind of silly. You know what else is silly? Snake pulling grenades in 1 frame. And Ness' magnet being so slow you may as well use the frames to try and YYG instead. There are definitely some silly moves in the smash series.
 

Wobbly Headed Bob

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Shine is actually a very overpowered move in Melee. Comes out in 1 frame, is invincible, reflects projectiles and can be canceled with a jump. It's also literally unpunishable. It's probably even better than shuttle loop.

Oh and talking about the execution barrier stuff. Why do we need that in the first place? I wouldn't care if stuff was easy or hard to do really. It's the risk/reward thing that usually matters. Technical skill doesn't make a game more competitive really except it forces people to play home alone which is really really boring. Lack of Lcanceling is the last thing you can complain about Brawl. It has nothing to do with why or why not the game sucks.
This was already discussed with the brony dude, Kinklink something, and I. Please reply to that discussion instead of reiterating opening statements.
 

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Also, having the shine not reflect at frame 1 kind of makes it a much much more inferior to power-shielding (if it returns) as a reflecting tool. I think that since the shine's primary (intended) purpose was to reflect projectiles, it should enjoy being able to reflect projectiles at frame 1 instead of just canceling out the projectile.

Also, what do you think about melee Ganondorf's 1 frame jab. I'm actually fine with it.
And I always found that strange. If you can power shield consistently, everyone has a projectile reflector. Parrying a projectile is one thing (if not overpowered), but being ablle to shield it to reflect it back is another.

And like I said, I don't like one frame anythings outside of supers.

Still, what did you think of the revamped Shine I suggested. Since we're going into another game with likely very different mechanics, we might as well consider it at least.
 

Wobbly Headed Bob

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And I always found that strange. If you can power shield consistently, everyone has a projectile reflector. Parrying a projectile is one thing (if not overpowered), but being ablle to shield it to reflect it back is another.

And like I said, I don't like one frame anythings outside of supers.

Still, what did you think of the revamped Shine I suggested. Since we're going into another game with likely very different mechanics, we might as well consider it at least.
But blocking and sidestepping is 1 frame, etc.

I think your shine suggestion is very interesting, but I don't know how well it would work. I don't think I favor it, but neither do I oppose it.
 

Big-Cat

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But blocking and sidestepping is 1 frame, etc.

I think your shine suggestion is very interesting, but I don't know how well it would work. I don't think I favor it, but neither do I oppose it.
Well, when I meant anything, I guess I should've been specific. I dislike any attacks or throws outside of supers to have a 1 frame startup. Same goes for parries/reversals. IMO, things like blocking should be instantaneous considering there is a "meta startup". And sidestepping is only instantaneous in regards to the motion starting. A sidestep does not guarantee full evasion.
 

Wobbly Headed Bob

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Well, when I meant anything, I guess I should've been specific. I dislike any attacks or throws outside of supers to have a 1 frame startup. Same goes for parries/reversals. IMO, things like blocking should be instantaneous considering there is a "meta startup". And sidestepping is only instantaneous in regards to the motion starting. A sidestep does not guarantee full evasion.
Are you sure that spot dodging doesn't give you invincibility as soon as it starts?

A reflection does not guarantee the reflected projectile will hit, and it also easily punished like spot-dodging if not more.

Certain properties of moves tend to kick in from frame 1 like attack and projectile invincibility. I think reflection is situational enough to be able to be shoed in with those properties and it will be slightly more beneficial for the game.
 

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Are you sure that spot dodging doesn't give you invincibility as soon as it starts?

A reflection does not guarantee the reflected projectile will hit, and it also easily punished like spot-dodging if not more.

Certain properties of moves tend to kick in from frame 1 like attack and projectile invincibility. I think reflection is situational enough to be able to be shoed in with those properties and it will be slightly more beneficial for the game.
I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about 3D Fighter sidestepping, my bad.

Still, my number one concern with frame data is that it makes other options worthless in comparison, especially with attacks. In other fighters, you have moves that reflect projectiles like Rose's Soul Reflect, Hsien-Ko's Gong, SFxTK Xiaoyu's Mistrust that have startup before they can reflect and they are nowhere near as rewarding as the shine is.

I think this does raise a few questions about projectiles. Should they be as spammy as the spacies' lasers? Should we raise an importance of evading projectiles with traditional mobility and attacks with projectile invincibility? As a 2D Fighter, I think Smash needs to have respectful attention to projectiles without making them too good.
 

Wobbly Headed Bob

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I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about 3D Fighter sidestepping, my bad.

Still, my number one concern with frame data is that it makes other options worthless in comparison, especially with attacks. In other fighters, you have moves that reflect projectiles like Rose's Soul Reflect, Hsien-Ko's Gong, SFxTK Xiaoyu's Mistrust that have startup before they can reflect and they are nowhere near as rewarding as the shine is.

I think this does raise a few questions about projectiles. Should they be as spammy as the spacies' lasers? Should we raise an importance of evading projectiles with traditional mobility and attacks with projectile invincibility? As a 2D Fighter, I think Smash needs to have respectful attention to projectiles without making them too good.
Conventional 2D fighters are too restricted though, so it's easy to see how reflection in smash isn't as effective as it is in those games.
 

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Actually, the restriction in movement really varies in between games. The anime fighters like Guilty Gear and BlazBlue have a strong sense of mobility thanks to running (but no dash dancing), double jumps, and air dashes in particular. They're also both fast paced in general while being highly in depth and technical. If you haven't played them, I'd suggest looking at them.

Then there's KOF which is between Guilty Gear and Street Fighter in terms of speed IMO. That game also has short hops like in Smash and dodge rolls (but not as good as Smash's).
 

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In Brawl, all but two spotdodges begin on frame 2. The other two (Olimar and Bowser) begin on frame 3. Bowser has 10 frames during the entire animation where he can be hit. A handful have 9, most (like all but three) have 6. (As in you get 1 frame before it starts, then 5 frames after to punish)

In Melee, spotdodges weren't nearly as good. Bowser for instance takes 4 frames to get invincibility and has a whopping 21 frames where he can be hit during the animation. So even after invincibility he has 18 frames of cooldown. Fox's invincibility comes out frame 2, giving him 8 frames of no invincibility on the entire move, cooldown included. Plus no buffering means people cannot be frame perfect.
 

Wobbly Headed Bob

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Actually, the restriction in movement really varies in between games. The anime fighters like Guilty Gear and BlazBlue have a strong sense of mobility thanks to running (but no dash dancing), double jumps, and air dashes in particular. They're also both fast paced in general while being highly in depth and technical. If you haven't played them, I'd suggest looking at them.

Then there's KOF which is between Guilty Gear and Street Fighter in terms of speed IMO. That game also has short hops like in Smash and dodge rolls (but not as good as Smash's).
I've played Guilty Gear and it bored me to tears, and I'm never going to play BlazBlue, Persona 3, or any other ****ty Atlus fighter because the style and target audience makes me sick to the stomach. GGX was already disgusting enough.

And I've played KoF, hence I've been talking about it since the beginning of this thread.

What's your point?
 

Biz_R_0

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I don't mean to disregard every opinion that isn't mine, but a lot of these suggestions for fixing L Cancelling are really complicated and would detract from accessibility at least as much as L Cancelling normally would.
 

Johnknight1

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Yeah, the shine should have more than a 1 frame start up and cool down.
For anyone interested besides I guess John Knight, my complex and never-going-to-happen proposal for a functional and reasonable execution of L-Canceling is as follows:

-Current timing remains identical to Melee (within 20 frames of landing) and when executed correctly, reduces the landing lag of the aerial by 1/2
-"Fail window" of 20 frames if an L-Cancel is input too early
-If an L-cancel is attempted while the fail window is active, the lag of the aerial is increased by 0.5 times its original length
-Late L-Cancels (Anything input after landing) decrease the remaining landing lag of the aerial by 1/4th
I guess that's one way to make L-cancelling work. Still, would that system be in effect if say a character got hit while trying to L-cancel, or footstool stomped=???
You know me, I would rather just take apart the entire mechanics of the series and just analyze the necessity, implications, etc. behind each thing and look for new things that could possibly work.
Whatever makes the game the most fun, the most deep, and the most competitive should be in IMO. So far in smash, we have tons of micro ideas spread apart 3 completely different games.
I'm not sure what negative consequences L-Canceling could be given. We don't have meter in Smash (yet) so that's one is kind of out.
All I know is that the Melee system seems unnecessary unless it becomes automatic or is replaced by a different system (like Kink-Link suggests).
Also if every aerial could be auto-canceled if executed from a SH normal fall or at least a Full hop FF on the first available frame, that'd be nice, with some specific moves auto-canceling on a SHFF Like Ness's does in Melee.

The two can coexist and work off one another without being some two-fields-of-thought approach with Auto-Cancelers hating on L-canceling for rewarding "poor timing and spacing"
Yes. More offense out of aerial to ground offense would be really nice, and this is one unique way of giving the more skillful players offense. Plus, it could help punish some campers and whatnot.
 

Arcansi

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Yes. Your first post was about how "lazers" are not killing moves, and it missed the point entirely.
Sure, I guess. I was more of bringing up my own point, but it's functionally similar enough.

Your second post said that "Or Max Damage" is much different and in an end of an unspecified spectrum, which turns out to be a spectrum that does not apply at all when we're discussing a "no execution" scenario and just makes no sense in the context of this argument. Turns out that the claim that "Or Max damage" is different is meaningless the same way that "yes" is much different than "yeah" (a triviality).
You see, you're assuming something you can't assume here. Not once have I made any indication that I was entering into any specific argument. I was merely pointing something out, to begin with.

Perhaps in your argument, my claim isn't relevant. But this is why you don't put random claims into random arguments.


Even you acknowledge it:

So why even say something so useless and confusing to make the discourse senselessly convoluted?
It is not my fault you made an incorrect assumption.





I'm aware. That's what I said too.
K.


Are you not familiar with Roulette in gambling?

Why should my English be put into question when it seems like the theme of the thread that you have issues with proper communication?
I'm aware of roulette, but not the type of phrase you used. Your name is partly french and it seemed quite possible that you had meant to say something similar but with different words, so I thought to question it.

You are not, and were just using a phrase I did not understand, which was the most likely alternative.

The thing is that it is humanly possible. Axe can do like 7 multi-shines. The bot would just do 100.
Seven is not 100.

I think this is a very thought-provoking point, but I think it's flawed nonetheless.

You ARE making decisions against your own ability, hence the probabilities of you landing it change from person to person. Yomi is also a game of probabilities and taking chance. Your oversimplification isn't going to fly.

If probability and chance wasn't such big part of competition, we'd know who's going to place exactly where prior to the tournament.
You're misrepresenting my point. I'm speaking from when someone reaches the tech skill plateau, where they cannot physically get better. At this point, if there is any chance they will fail, it is random.

Chance is a large part of tournaments, but it's chance based on player skill. When someone cannot get any better technically, any technical errors they make are not the fault of player skill any more.

Well nobody said that shield pressure was purely "high-tech skill". So you were agreeing with me?

I would appreciate if you made an effort to make your points less vague and obfuscated.
First off, I apologize if you find my style of (speaking, arguing? whatever you want to say) confusing. It's not something I note often, and unfortunately not something that I change consciously.

Secondly, no. Because advanced shield pressure isn't a mechanic that is only high-execution, it doesn't even respond to what I was saying. I just noticed your strawman, I think.



Lol, but it's not even called shield pressure in Marvel.

Basically, in Melee's shield pressure "yomi" you change and alternate your patterns in crazy ways. It takes crazy tech-skill and the yomi is based on the chance that the execution will fail. So your claim is false.

It's not very dissimilar from an ever-changing mix-up and frametraps metagame.
Okay, I understand that, and understood it before this.

The yomi is based off the interaction between the blocker and the attacker. The blocker wants to interact with the frame trap effectively, and the attacker wants to act in such a way that the blocker cannot interact effectively. Making my claim true. The chance that either of them will fail (most likely the attacker, as they have to do a lot more tech) is just a bonus for the blocker.
 

Wobbly Headed Bob

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I'm going to filter out everything nonsensical, worthless, and irrelevant in your post then.

You're misrepresenting my point. I'm speaking from when someone reaches the tech skill plateau, where they cannot physically get better. At this point, if there is any chance they will fail, it is random.

Chance is a large part of tournaments, but it's chance based on player skill. When someone cannot get any better technically, any technical errors they make are not the fault of player skill any more.
They CAN physically get better as long as its humanly possible. They just don't. Never do they realistically reach a skill plateau.

Secondly, no. Because advanced shield pressure isn't a mechanic that is only high-execution, it doesn't even respond to what I was saying. I just noticed your strawman, I think.
Nobody said that it was only a high-execution only mechanic, doofy. You're not even responding to anything anyone is saying.



The yomi is based off the interaction between the blocker and the attacker. The blocker wants to interact with the frame trap effectively, and the attacker wants to act in such a way that the blocker cannot interact effectively. Making my claim true. The chance that either of them will fail (most likely the attacker, as they have to do a lot more tech) is just a bonus for the blocker.
Your claim was that the yomi only applies based on the potential inconsistency of an executioner to be able to perform a command. So it's false. That's a non sequitur.

Arguing with you is like trying to argue with someone under the effect of DMT.
 

Vkrm

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I wouldn't. It would be the first step towards a smash game with no tech skill. People who have really clean inputs have an advantage in most good games. Even in brawl although it's way less noticeable. I think it's cool that you visually see how much skill a person has by watching their movement. That being said, they shouldn't add tech skill for the sake of tech skill. They should give us back the control we had in melee. Since the chars in brawl can't do as much, their easier to play and there is no time investment. Is that a good thing? Yes, and it's because the game is only fun when playing it with high stakes, in tournament and MM's. When you actually like playing the game, you won't mind having to practice.

:phone:
 
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