Let's talk about L-Canceling.

[Snakeyes]

@Dingding

Not bad, except for this;

3.) L-CANCELLING IS NOW DONE BY PRESSING L/R BEFORE THE LAST HIT OF AN AERIAL CONNECTS WITH AN ENEMY, RATHER THAN RIGHT BEFORE YOU HIT THE GROUND

Remember that the sole benefit of manual L-canceling is that the defending player can change the moment when an aerial lands by manipulating his shield and thus throw off the attacker's L-cancel timing, which creates an opening. If you only had to l-cancel on the last hit of your aerial there would be very little margin of error, and that would negate the technique's defensive benefits.

But the rest is pretty intriguing.

 

[Vkrm]

That isn't the sole purpose. It gives the more technical player another way to be better then someone who's not. Its skill gap that is not at all arbitrary.

 

[JOE!]

That isn't the sole purpose. It gives the more technical player another way to be better then someone who's not. Its skill gap that is not at all arbitrary.

Having to press Up on the Control Stick as well as X/Y to jump (not just 1) would be better then cus more tech.

 

[Snakeyes]

Why should we be looking at other fighters for examples.

Because if traditional fighting games, built from the ground up to attract the most hardcore players, don't over-complicate the simple act of following up an aerial with a ground attack beyond proper spacing and timing of both moves, then such a mechanic has even less reason to exist in a casual-oriented fighter like Smash.

Snake eyes is flip floping. Does it bar entry for new school players or is it so easy that it ought to be auto?

My position has always been that;

1. It's an extra thing to learn for someone looking to transition to serious play.

2. Once learned, it becomes a brainless second nature input as there is never a reason not to do it. If that's the case, then it shouldn't be a "thing" in the first place and all aerials should simply have lower landing lag that allows the player to combo naturally, without the need for an advanced technique.

However, I acknowledge that the opening caused by a failed L-cancel has a small benefit for a player who is on the defensive. I also believe that this could be replicated by either tweaking some frame data or by giving the defender a few additional options with the shield.

 

[Vkrm]

I don't it's brainless at all. When I preform a block string or combo, I have adjust my timing depending on the circumstances. You said this is something you understand, but I think you don't get how dramatically different the timing can be.

 

[Vkrm]

Having to press Up on the Control Stick as well as X/Y to jump (not just 1) would be better then cus more tech.

This post needs more butts.

 

[Dingding123]

@Dingding

Not bad, except for this;


Remember that the sole benefit of manual L-canceling is that the defending player can change the moment when an aerial lands by manipulating his shield and thus throw off the attacker's L-cancel timing, which creates an opening. If you only had to l-cancel on the last hit of your aerial there would be very little margin of error, and that would negate the technique's defensive benefits.

But the rest is pretty intriguing.

Thanks!

While the margin of error may be lower this wouldn't be an ability that would involve very little counterplay like l-canceling. Thus l-canceling stops being an end and becomes a means to an end; rather than obligatory it would now be both a conscious choice and a form of counterplay, which IMO are what competitive games are all about.

 

[Biz_R_0]

That isn't the sole purpose. It gives the more technical player another way to be better then someone who's not. Its skill gap that is not at all arbitrary.

This being wrong was covered already by butt controllers.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

Sorry bro, I'm not falling for this again.

If you don't have an example of another fighting game that requires an extra hurdle for a basic air-to-ground combo, you've got no argument except having techskill for techskill's sake.

So, thoughts on the frame data?

I'm sorry you're an idiot.

"As long as you have an example of another fighting game where you use variable knockback and edgeguarding, you have no argument here."

We've explained the value for l-canceling in this game. How do you even evaluate that as "basic"? It's not. Us logic guys don't consider your idiotic rhetoric of any argumentative value. Your main argument and your current ad hoc argument for jump-ins are logically inconsistent with each other. And your entire main argument has been refuted. Read a book and stop wasting our time.


I thought it was hilarious that you were trying to argue that it was possible to get out of any shield-pressure even with perfect frame execution and therefore you had some sort of point. I don't know if you've read the thread other than your own posts, but people pointed out an execution balance between defending and shield pressure, your suggestion tips that balance way in favor towards the shield pressure guy. Then based on that, you suggest something would just kill the entire shield-pressure game. It's just obvious you simply don't know how to play the game or have no experience with it.


Seriously, just get an education. Take some logic classes and argumentation classes. You need serious fixing.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I don't it's brainless at all. When I preform a block string or combo, I have adjust my timing depending on the circumstances. You said this is something you understand, but I think you don't get how dramatically different the timing can be.

You exaggerate how hard it is to adjust. The only real excuse you have for missing an L-Cancel is if FoD or PS1 put a platform under you unexpectedly.

That or you're Pikachu and you used a Bair on Marth's shield. If you don't L-Cancel, then you stay low from Bair's landing animation and can't be shield grabbed.



In any case, it's very little interaction and you always want to L-Cancel. It doesn't add a choice, it adds to "tech skill" and nothing else. I don't mind technical play, but past a certain point, you're contributing to the entry level barrier that keeps people from competing in melee.


As for L-Canceling as a limiter on certain characters (which is the other argument I see being referenced other places, I'll admit to not reading the entire thread), such as Fox or Falco's infinite shield pressure and true combos, if you have everything automatically cancel at whatever lag you deem appropriate, you should just change the lag so that shine->jump->shine>wavedash->shine->grab or another wavedash. Or since we're in a new game, the idea of lessening block stun from repeated moves withing the same blockstring appeals to me.

 

[Vkrm]

Ryker's post is quite confused. I don't know if he agrees with me or not. Im really not inflating the difficulty of canceling at all. Top players who have been at it for ten years miss an l cancel here or there. Now I'm going to ask you is lcanceling so hard that it make the game difficult for new players? Or is it so easy that it's a brain dead mechanic? Also can I get the criteria you guys use to judge what is or isn't an arbitrary skill gap?

 

[Biz_R_0]

Yes. I guarantee you that newer players would have a much easier time learning the game if they didn't have to L Cancel or play with their butts.

 

[Vkrm]

This being wrong was covered already by butt controllers.

Where you really serious? First off, we covered how butt control would only add pointless difficulty. It's different from LCing because the difficulty introduced by manual canceling would serve an ulterior purpose by affecting balance for the better. Secondly, melee isn't better because it's harder. It's better because it gives the player more control over the characters. There are many more factors that are left up to me. That's adds up to more opportunities to play smart or play bad.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

I personally embrace the idea of butt joysticks for Brawl players.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm sorry you're an idiot.

Right in the feelings.

That hit so hard that it affected me, Scythe.

Real talk, Snake, I think your point(s) have been shredded to pieces.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Biz_R_0]

Where you really serious? First off, we covered how butt control would only add pointless difficulty. It's different from LCing because the difficulty introduced by manual canceling would serve an ulterior purpose by affecting balance for the better.

You keep saying that and I keep asking why it couldn't just be automatic. The only explanation you gave was that some characters would make OoS grabs whiff if they don't L-Cancel Bair on shields, which is extremely specific and the game wouldn't suffer without it. The only other argument you've been giving is "tech skill is good", which was the point of butt controllers.

Secondly, melee isn't better because it's harder. It's better because

Secondly, Melee isn't better, you just like it more. Subjectivity opinions blah blah blah.

 

[Vkrm]

You keep saying that and I keep asking why it couldn't just be automatic. The only explanation you gave was that some characters would make OoS grabs whiff if they don't L-Cancel Bair on shields, which is extremely specific and the game wouldn't suffer without it. The only other argument you've been giving is "tech skill is good", which was the point of butt controllers.

I went on and on about how the really broken stuff in melee usually requires a more complex input, or there's a small window of time to react. Drinking food did as well. He gave this argument earlier but you and the auto canceling crowd must have missed it. And melee's way better.

 

[Biz_R_0]

And, with all of those things, the good players can consistently do them. The only people who would be affected by it being easier/automatic are the people learning the game. Because of this, it being difficult does not benefit anyone or add to anything, it just subtracts if you're not at that level yet, which was exactly what butt controllers would do. "It's hard to do" is never good balance because people will eventually figure out how to do it consistently.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Ryker's post is quite confused. I don't know if he agrees with me or not. Im really not inflating the difficulty of canceling at all. Top players who have been at it for ten years miss an l cancel here or there. Now I'm going to ask you is lcanceling so hard that it make the game difficult for new players? Or is it so easy that it's a brain dead mechanic? Also can I get the criteria you guys use to judge what is or isn't an arbitrary skill gap?

I think you are inflating the difficulty of L-Canceling. Yes, top players drop L-Cancels, but I've been walking for just shy of 22 years now and I still trip on occasion (shout-outs to tripping, **** that ****), but that doesn't mean walking is hard.

Your first two questions I'll get to after this because the answer is longer, but the answer to both of the first two is yes. There is no "or" there it's an "and" because both can be true and, in this case, they are.

"Arbitrary skill gap" is three words that make it seem like there is absolutely nothing of value which may or may not be the case. "Unnecessary skill gap" is something that is a much bigger problem. There is no black and white data to use for it. The criteria, however, is rather simple in my mind and it goes well with L-Cancelling as an example. An aspect of the game is an unnecessary skill gap when it's value is outweighed by its cost. A skill gap's cost is the players it turns away because they do not want to put forth the time to learn it. It become unnecessary when the interactions it causes in game are too small to justify the loss.

Anyone who's played melee at a half competent level knows that in today's day and age, the inability to L-Cancel consistently will cause even the smartest players to lose horrifically. I would absolutely destroy Mango, Dr.PP, and HBox if all of them usually missed three out of every four L-Cancels. They are worlds better than me at this game, but tech skill is extremely limiting. The game is rather unforgiving and new players WILL NOT be able to L-Cancel consistently off the bat. This leads to getting **** stomped by ****ty auto-pilot Falco, CGed to death by someone's I don't even play this character Sheik, and perfected by someone's "LOL FAIR, GRAB, UTILT, FSMASH, I ONLY HAVE FOUR MOVES" Marth. That in turn leads to frustration which turns away players who could be good or could even just enjoy the game and add to the community. It means you have to have a specific mindset to get past the entry level and you have to have that plus a monstrous work ethic to become even a lower end high level player with about half the viable cast (including and especially the two highest tiers). The rest of the cast is unviable, and almost completely irrelevant outside of outlier cases such as AX3. And let's face it, no one picking up the game in the last two years is going to ever make the climb to relevancy through that kind of mountain.

However, on the flip side of the coin, once you get through that, it becomes second nature. My first game to play competitively was Brawl, but I learned to play Smash 64 before I learned Melee. That game makes Melee look downright gentle on mistakes. I had the right mindset and stuck it through. About 6 months in (I wasn't able to play Melee much when I first started to pick it up and when I did it was against a GOOD spacie player so my games ended in roughly a minute anyway, so I picked a very safe time estimate), I didn't miss many L-Cancels. Yes, I miss them occasionally, but I do not often because it's muscle memory. I've been exposed to so many different situations: all the tilted shields, sloped floors, platform heights, character sizes, awkward collisions. It doesn't surprise me anymore and it's extremely easy to L-Cancel. If I mess up, it's on me, not anything my opponent did. That, or I'm playing Ganon or Bowser or something else that is so far outside of my personal comfort zone that I'm not familiar enough with the timing that it is second nature.

In that way, it is definitely a wall that keeps players from getting into the game and a brain dead mechanic that doesn't add anything anywhere close to valuable enough to outweigh its considerable weight in adding to the tech skill barrier that is melee's biggest problem. The interactions it allows are limited and the decision making involved is completely one sided (How Will I Try And Make Him Mess Up This L-Cancel Even Though It Probably Won't Work vs. No Matter What My Decision Will Not Change Because I Do Want To L-Cancel). I can do it, and having to do it doesn't bother me, but if I'm making a new game, I would much rather lose it and gain more players that I could have otherwise. I'm not going to lose any significant number of players because their controller clicks less often when they play.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

That's why I still love and support P:M without *****ing in public about L-Canceling despite being saddened by its inclusion. I only bring it up because I enjoy the discussion. I think that's the longest post I've made on the matter and I would challenge defenders of L-Cancelling to show me why the value outweighs the cost.

Where you really serious? First off, we covered how butt control would only add pointless difficulty. It's different from LCing because the difficulty introduced by manual canceling would serve an ulterior purpose by affecting balance for the better. Secondly, melee isn't better because it's harder. It's better because it gives the player more control over the characters. There are many more factors that are left up to me. That's adds up to more opportunities to play smart or play bad.

This post is bad.

Bizzaro is dumb and hurts his cause, but you're not doing your's proud either.

L-Cancelling affecting balance should not be a thing. It's bad game design to include the potential for something that is broken if not for human error. It has worked to limit some of the insane things about Melee, but this isn't Melee. If you were to automatically move at the speed an L-Cancel would afford, then you would obviously change the characters. Fox's shine will probably not be jump cancel able in Smash 4 similar to the knee jerk removal of that property of shine in Brawl. This is WHY I can deal with Project M leaving L-Canceling because they truly are creating Melee 2.0 and removing jump out of shine or adding more lag to Marth's Fair on hit would considerably change the game from how it was in Melee.

You're thinking from the Melee engine, and, while you are welcome to and SHOULD want to take some aspects from it, you should be thinking from a new game.



More control over your character means more is left up to you in terms of movement, but it does not necessarily mean that you gain more opportunities to play well. When you're hit in Melee, you lose much more control over your character than you do in Brawl do to how long your options are limited before obtaining neutral again, which leads to more opportunities to play well that are not present in Melee.

What you have is a matter of preference, so you cannot objectively say that one game is better than another without first defining what is "best" giving the word a different meaning, so stay away from direct comparisons of which is the better game as long as you want to treat your opinion as law.

 

[Biz_R_0]

That was pretty much everything I wanted to say. Although, I don't see how I'm hurting the cause if I'm saying the same thing as you but less detailed.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

You don't say it well and that let's the people that want to do so circle jerk about walking over you and label you as a Brawl*** who doesn't understand. Whether or not they're right, getting that label assigned hurts your credibility with them and further hurts the credibility of anyone they associate with Brawl. If it's not sinking in, try a different route or just shut up and let them be rather than feeding them.

#internet101

 

[Biz_R_0]

You don't say it well and that let's the people that want to do so circle jerk about walking over you and label you as a Brawl*** who doesn't understand.

There's no way I was being that dumb, and even if I was the people who would go "lol u just play Brawl cuz u suk" would probably do that regardless.

Whether or not they're right, getting that label assigned hurts your credibility with them and further hurts the credibility of anyone they associate with Brawl. If it's not sinking in, try a different route or just shut up and let them be rather than feeding them.

I did take a different route, however the idea that having to play with your butt is unnecessarily difficult but adds a new layer of skill like L Canceling didn't really sink in.

 

[Vkrm]

Do you take time out of your day to make sure your walking is on point? If you did youd trip less often. Lcanceling is a bit trickier than walking.

The value of lcanceling is obvious to anyone in this thread so Ill adress the cost. I absoulutely agree that l canceling is Important, I dissagree with your assumption that new players would just give up on it, because you yourself pointed how vital it is to win matches. You definitely over estimate it's importance though. I'd put money on mango or pp beating you (or me) with what ever bizarre rules you want to use. The actual cost is having to meticulously build up skill until you can nail cancels somewhat regularly. Is practice a bad thing? Not according to marvel players.

Just read your bit on canceling being stupid easy. I think you're wrong. But just so you i actually advocate stricter timing on cancels. There is an inconsistency in your argument though. if it's so easy why do new players miss it so often? And Im very curious as to why you feel cheated when you get punished for missing a cancel, but hitting someone when they attack in a predictable fashion is okay. I see them both as mistakes.

You have a very flawed view of melee's meta if you think it's just about trying to get the other person to screw up a cancel. Melee is about being mad careful, and trying to engage the opponent when it suits your character.

Quoting ryker. Wrote this over the course of breakfast and I'm sorry if it's not relevant by the time you see it.

 

[Vkrm]

I don't see why you don't want to factor in how dificult a particular setup is when trying to determine how useful that setup is. Same for characters. Other fighters do it. I guess the only reason you don't see in brawl is because once you reached the general level of tech you probably have what you need to play every character in that game....


....even the ice climbers

 

[Arcansi]

I did take a different route, however the idea that having to play with your butt is unnecessarily difficult but adds a new layer of skill like L Canceling didn't really sink in.

It did give me a great signature though.

this thread

Am I to assume you ignored me because you have no counter argument?

 

[Arcansi]

:fluttershy:

 

[Biz_R_0]

I guess the only reason you don't see in brawl is because once you reached the general level of tech you probably have what you need to play every character in that game.

"I know how to DACUS and Glide Toss, now I have mastered all 40 characters"

 

[Vkrm]

@arcansi If you would be so kind as to quote that argument I'd be happy to tell you why its wrong.


Cool, that means I've achieve the average skill level in brawl despite not playing for the past four years.

 

[Arcansi]

Bizzaro is dumb and hurts his cause, but you're not doing your's proud either.

L-Cancelling affecting balance should not be a thing. It's bad game design to include the potential for something that is broken if not for human error. It has worked to limit some of the insane things about Melee, but this isn't Melee. If you were to automatically move at the speed an L-Cancel would afford, then you would obviously change the characters. Fox's shine will probably not be jump cancel able in Smash 4 similar to the knee jerk removal of that property of shine in Brawl. This is WHY I can deal with Project M leaving L-Canceling because they truly are creating Melee 2.0 and removing jump out of shine or adding more lag to Marth's Fair on hit would considerably change the game from how it was in Melee.

You're thinking from the Melee engine, and, while you are welcome to and SHOULD want to take some aspects from it, you should be thinking from a new game.

This covers a lot of points that I''ve both talked about and noticed.

@arcansi If you would be so kind as to quote that argument I'd be happy to tell you why its wrong.

I feel you should cover your own first.

You argue for tech skill for the sake of balance, which isn't a thing.

You also argue for difficulty of a thing determining how good that thing is, which also isn't a thing.

Tech skill, as long as it can be mastered, will be mastered. Cases where it can be mastered but isn't aren't relevant as any failure//lack of balance here is a 'get better' problem, not a problem with tech skill or any such thing.

Because of this, tech skill cannot influence balance in any way, shape, or form unless humanly impossible to master.

 

[Strong Badam]

Vkrm please stop posting. People like you give Melee players a really, really bad name.

 

[Vkrm]

I don't see why you don't want to factor in how dificult a particular setup is when trying to determine how useful that setup is. Same for characters. Other fighters do it. I guess the only reason you don't see in brawl is because once you reached the general level of tech you probably have what you need to play every character in that game....


....even the ice climbers

I think this sums it up quite well. Ryker thinks that top players play the game without making mistakes.

 

[Arcansi]

I think this sums it up quite well. Ryker thinks that top players play the game without making mistakes.

It's not that they don't make mistakes.

It's that something as simple as L-cancelling is not noteable in these mistakes.

Or osmething similar, I have to go.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

You have a very flawed view of melee's meta if you think it's just about trying to get the other person to screw up a cancel. Melee is about being mad careful, and trying to engage the opponent when it suits your character.

Where in the world did I say anything amounting to that? I said that L-Cancelling in particular does not add any meaningful decision making. Melee is about not approaching, making your opponent think you're approaching, punishing an opponent's approach, getting away with approaching because the MU says you have to, being Falco and getting to approach for free, and pressing your advantages whenever they are presented to the extreme. Some of that is sarcasm.

That's a terrible misinterpretation of my sentence if you seriously got that from it.

Do you take time out of your day to make sure youre walking is on point? If you did youd trip less often. Lcanceling is a bit trickier than walking.

Actually, it's not trickier, I just have more practice walking.

The value of lcanceling is obvious to anyone in this thread so Ill adress the cost. I absoulutely agree that l canceling is Important, I dissagree with your assumption that new players would just give up on it, because you yourself pointed how vital it is to win matches. You definitely over estimate it's importance though. I'd put money on mango or pp beating you (or me) with what ever bizarre rules you want to use. The actual cost is having to meticulously build up skill until you can nail cancels somewhat regularly.

You are seriously underestimating it's value if you think a competent player would lose against someone who loses the safety provided by L-Cancels. Spacies can't pressure nearly as effectively without L-Cancels. Hell, NO ONE can. Even Jiggs needs L-Cancels or her wall of aerials is incredibly unsafe on a character who only needs 40 percent to die.

In general, I think you've missed the point of what I'm saying.

I'm not talking about it's value in melee when the alternative is to get full landing lag. I'm talking about its value in comparison to automatically getting half the lag in terms of what it adds to the game. Where is the significant decision making that outweighs the players you lose that would've played but never got over the tech skill hurdle that L-Canceling contributes to?

Is practice a bad thing? Not according to marvel players.

But Marvel is INCREDIBLY easy on the entry level. Pick Hulk, Sentinel, Wesker. Incredibly easy to use. You don't need to practice very much to compete with other low level players. And you can win matches against players somewhat better than you (not worlds better, but still better than you) off of cheesey X-Factor level 3 Wesker or Sent. That's why it gets SO MANY PLAYERS. Because, in addition to being super fan service, it's easy to play at the bottom level, easy to see rapid improvement with very little work, and easy to feel motivated to continue by cheesy one shot wins against better players with the snowballing XFactor mechanic. Melee, while also being super fan service filled, is incredibly hard for new players and it's hard to see improvement because you're getting smoked constantly by people who are just a little better than you playing auto-pilot Falco, you have to spend time practicing to be able to even play, and it's very difficult to start winning when it snowballs so very hard off of losing your stock first. Where's your comparison?

Just read your bit on canceling being stupid easy. I think you're wrong. But just so you i actually advocate stricter timing on cancels. There is an inconsistency in your argument though. if it's so easy why do new players miss it so often?

....... It's not an inconsistency. I actually just addressed WHY it can be a problem for new players and easy for veterans. It is not hard once it become muscle memory, but first it has to reach that point and you lose players before they ever reach that point because they are turned off by their lack of progress.

And Im very curious as to why you feel cheated when you get punished for missing a cancel, but hitting someone when they attack in a predictable fashion is okay. I see them both as mistakes.

And where the **** did you pull this from? I'm not sure you can reach that far down your ***.

Where in the hell did I say I felt cheated for missing an L-Cancel. Where did I ever imply that at all? I've played this game for years and have pointed out that I have the mindset I previously highlighted as necessary to stick it out with the game. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't try and assign me an incorrect mentality when I've given you no reason to.

Missing L-Cancels is part of Melee and if it happens, it does because that's the way the game is played. I messed up a part of something necessary to play the game I want to play and I shouldn't have done that. However, that's no license to ask for that to be included in the next installment.

Missing an L-Cancel is a mistake, but it is not one that comes from an incorrect decision such as approaching in a predictable manner. I am never going to choose not to throw Marth's Fair at you when I think it's the right decision because I'm afraid of missing an L-Cancel.

It's bad game design because it's not a two-way street like punishing a predictable approach is. You have to recognize my predictable approach, read that I will do it again, choose the corresponding countermeasure, and execute said action. This allows me to recognize that I am approaching predictably and vary my choices and punish if you continue to assume I haven't learned and is an all around deeper exchange. If I miss an L-Cancel, all you have to do is grab me. I will make the same decision in the future, but not miss the L-Cancel and you will not be able to shield grab me. There is no further exchange. It is very surface level and does not add at all to risk-reward analysis.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Ryker thinks that top players play the game without making mistakes.

We've already covered that consistency =/= perfection.

Consistency, at least in this context, doesn't mean that it happens all the time, but rather that it happens most of the time.

Yeah, I'm arguing semantics, but we should clear this up. At least for a fighting game, a 60-70% rate of pulling off something is considered consistent due to the various mental factors and human error preventing it from being 100% perfect.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Sigh...

I don't see why you don't want to factor in how dificult a particular setup is when trying to determine how useful that setup is. Same for characters. Other fighters do it. I guess the only reason you don't see in brawl is because once you reached the general level of tech you probably have what you need to play every character in that game....


....even the ice climbers

Ignoring the fact that you have no idea what the tech requirement for Brawl is and ignoring the fact that I play multiple traditional fighters in addition to all three smash games, the point is not analyzing how difficult a set-up it. The question I raise is WHY does it need to be more difficult? What does it add? At high levels of play, they have just practiced to the point they can do it. At low levels of play, they are irrelevant to the meta game and either they will learn to do it or get sick of it and give up. None of this seems a reason to include that additional difficulty to me.

I think this sums it up quite well. Ryker thinks that top players play the game without making mistakes.

They play the game with minimal mistakes, but that's irrelevant. The point I'm raising is actually that they do make mistakes, but why does the potential for those mistakes need to be there as opposed to removing the potential for mistakes and balancing around the decision making as opposed to the execution.

Vkrm please stop posting. People like you give Melee players a really, really bad name.

Out of curiosity, what's your stance on L-Canceling in a new environment as opposed to P:M which I know your stance on. Also, add me to the P:M Team, imo.

 

[Vkrm]

Why would said character/setup need to be any easier if the top level can already utilize the tactic. Some players do achieve that 99% success rate after putting in the time. I don't see a problem with rewarding such dedication. Why do you think canceling should be auto matic and power shielding shouldn't? That seems like a good place to start if you want to remove physical mistakes and make way for more decision making. Also I'd really apreciate if you're next reply is a bit less wordy. I end having to spend time sifting threw a bunch of crap to get to the real argument.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Why would said character/setup need to be any easier if the top level can already utilize the tactic. Some players do achieve that 99% success rate after putting in the time. I don't see a problem with rewarding such dedication.

The point is that almost nothing will change in high level play, but everyone else will be a lot better off. The only thing that what you call "rewarding dedication" will do is drive away people who don't want to put up with learning pointless things.

 

[Vkrm]

I don't consider it pointless. The top players miss enough cancels for it to be relevant. I really don't like the idea of any scrub being able to combo me and pressure my shield.

 

[Strong Badam]

a very convincing argument, vkrm.