LETS GET BACK DOWN TO BUSINESS - Match up Rediscussions

[Steel]

So bumping some of my old threads has inspired me to do something again, yay!

I'm making this thread to inquire on what match ups this board would like to rediscuss. List them, and if I deem it necessary I will either bump the old thread or make a new thread (probably make a new thread and replace the old thread in the match up guide). If I do make the new threads, we'll do them one at a time. From highest priority to lowest.

Go

 

[Xisin]

My opinion on matchups we need to rediscuss would be DK, Sonic, Ice Climbers, Wario, Pikachu... and i think thats it.

 

[Albert.]

^^^^ agree with everything.

&&& maybe add Snake. Is It even? does Marth slightly lose? does he lose horribly? Is there any hacks we can utilize in game to ensure that Marth doesn't get blown to high hell?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

All of them? Didn't someone suggest this months ago and get flammed for it? Because marth's metagame hasn't changeD?

 

[Freezewish]

To add to Xisin's list:

Zero Suit Samus and Sheik.

In order of importance.

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

I think the one matchup we absolutely need to look at again is IC's. Other than that, maybe ZSS and Wario.

 

[VietGeek]

All of them? Didn't someone suggest this months ago and get flammed for it? Because marth's metagame hasn't changeD?

Obviously that was because the "person in question" was of little importance and that the "leaders" of the board were to lazy to contribute to such a revision project of that scale.

You know the reasons and how this board works. There is no reason to really question why since I know you know well the response you'd get.

IMO, this is the order of priority the revisions should go in:

Wario
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Sheik
Sonic
ZSS
DK

The bottom three I feel really don't need rediscussion but with them having some impact on the current metagame (mostly Sonic and ZSS), looking back at it would not hurt. The only reason I feel Sonic is even brought up is due to how hyped he has become. He is still not a good character and really a match-up discussion would not really better gauge his character anyway.

 

[Eazy23]

I wish I knew how to beat roguepit

 

[C.J.]

@ Eazy, carefully

Also, I'd like to see Snake and DDD added. Even though nothing changed about the two or us, multiple people are seeing the two as even now.

 

[Freezewish]

Marth vs D3 is not even.

<.<

 

[feardragon64]

Can we take another look at pika again as well?

But ya, xisin's and freezewish's list + pika were my thoughts.

Edit: nevermind. Xisin said pika already.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Pikachu, Ice Climbers, and... MK, because I don't think it's that bad, and might need some update in that review.

 

[Steel]

it is that bad rukkiko u silly willy walnut head, id rather move it to 70 30 than 60 40 tbh. it's fine where it is. i think we also have plenty of threads and such on the match

whats the reasoning behind pikachu? i find it a pretty straight forward match. im also going to add d3 to the list. so far we have, in order of importance:

Wario
Ice Climbers
Sonic
ZSS
Pikachu
DK
Dedede
Sheik - uh why do you guys want this?

 

[Freezewish]

Some other Marth players I've talked to feel it's even. I dont see it as 6/4 marth's favor tbh. It's closer to even than Marth vs Rob is.

As for Pika, I blame Anther.

 

[Steel]

lol dude

marth is definitely > sheik

explain to me why you think so and ill tell you what you're doing wrong. this is probably one of the match ups i know the best

 

[VietGeek]

Steel will probably say you should use dtilt traps more over fairs since she can intercept those with DA in your commitment lag over dtilt.

Also of course edgeguard like a mofo.

idk I'm trying to read Steel's mind.

 

[Freezewish]

idk when I play it just seems like whoever gets the initial grab in the match wins. Prolly cause I play Neo's sheik alot but he said he feels the MU is close also(by close not sure if he meant even or not).

@ Viet: I adjusted to using dtilt>fair for my zoning traps after I saw he used DA to set up 50% combos and I end up offstage. But thanks for that anyway lol

 

[Eazy23]

Steel.....ROGUE make a matchup discussion on ROGUE, not pit, JUST ROGUE!

 

[Steel]

when he says close he means 60 40

he knows marth has the advantage. you're going to get ***** by neos sheik theres no way around it, you dont know the match and hes a far superior player.

theres holes in your zoning if hes consistently getting in with dash attack, you have to use dtilt to keep her out, you can use it more than once at a time too. there are times you just know when shes going to go in. dtilt is your best tool to prevent her dash approaches. if you zone properly though she cant do anything besides running away. you can't zone neos sheik well because he dashes away when you start to zone him and finds holes. that's not the match up, thats him being better than you.

 

[feardragon64]

Marth definitely has the advantage in the sheik matchup.

Pika I think it's worth re-discussing since his metagame has actually moved forward a lot since October....And I think the match-up is more 60:40 now. Marth has a really nice advantage but I think quaking(or however you spell it) really messes up Marth's spacing. Granted Quaking existed then but pika has a bunch of other tricks now too.

And yes I blame anther. *@$%

On another note, Sheik also doesn't do too bad on wifi....

Edit: Didn't pierce say he wanted to rediscuss fox?

 

[ChaosKnight]

Steel.....ROGUE make a matchup discussion on ROGUE, not pit, JUST ROGUE!

you can beat him just dont be agressive EVER..... that was my mistake

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Pika imo is in the same boat as Sonic, their metagames have advanced a lot since we first discussed them so we might as well re-discuss it.

Anther is fun to play, he's gooood.

So yeah I like Steel's list.

 

[Steel]

Wario
Ice Climbers
Sonic
ZSS
Pikachu
DK
Dedede
Olimar

replaced sheik with olimar if were all kool with that

 

[Zankoku]

Sheik totally beats Marth.

But this is not the game she beats Marth in.

 

[Freezewish]

lol ^

and thanks for the tips steel.

 

[Doomblaze]

We dont need to rediscuss pika, we just need Anther to make a thread about how he ***** marths really hard and why pikachu is cuter and more awesome than marth and etc.

Can somebody explain to me what has changed in the DK marth matchup? Ive only played like two decent DKs so i dont know what they have against us besides Pawnching magic imba tilts and cargo stage spikes

 

[Punishment Divine]

We dont need to rediscuss pika, we just need Anther to make a thread about how he ***** marths really hard and why pikachu is cuter and more awesome than marth and etc.

^This

I agree with your list, Steel

I would also be willing to contribute greatly to the matchups I know to a pretty much T, which include DK, Pika, Mario, Link, and to an extent Gay-Man Watch, if we do those chars.

Wait now that I think of it, are we redoing every character with those on the list first, or just those on the list?

Also, I highly suggest you guys go play some good DKs to understand just how truly God **** frustrating the MU is.

 

[Nike.]

Wario
Ice Climbers
Sonic
ZSS
Pikachu
DK
Dedede
Olimar

I really feel as though Snake should be a priority on this list. I dont think he was covered enough in the last discussion, and he's one of the select few that has an advantage on marth.

Hopefully in the next week I'll be playing Hylian and PhantomX. I'll try and add to IC and Wario when I do.

 

[Steel]

i dont get what else there is to add for snake

 

[Punishment Divine]

i dont get what else there is to add for snake

It couldn't hurt to re discuss one of our hardest matchups

 

[∫unk]

^This

I agree with your list, Steel

I would also be willing to contribute greatly to the matchups I know to a pretty much T, which include DK, Pika, Mario, Link, and to an extent Gay-Man Watch, if we do those chars.

Wait now that I think of it, are we redoing every character with those on the list first, or just those on the list?

Also, I highly suggest you guys go play some good DKs to understand just how truly God **** frustrating the MU is.

If you don't have a lot of DK experience it is. It's probably 45:55 or 50:50 if played right.

I have a lot of DK experience, I've played the best DK's (I believe CBK is the best now? Regardless I've played: bigfoot, CBK, big-o, somerandomkid, mth/m7h), and I can write a really good matchup analysis if people want.

Basically you bait and punish the whole match, juggle well, don't fall for stupid tricks and don't do anything laggy ever. You should never get punched, f-smashed, f-aired, etc.

There aren't a lot of Pikachus, but I fought 2 at SiN and they were both legit, signs of things to come. Pikachu is not easy for Marth if you don't know what you're doing. His high mobility can get inside easy and his spot dodge seems better than normal (no idea if frame data backs this up but they use it like most falcos do).

 

[Albert.]

If you don't have a lot of DK experience it is. It's probably 45:55 or 50:50 if played right.

I have a lot of DK experience, I've played the best DK's (I believe CBK is the best now? Regardless I've played: bigfoot, CBK, big-o, somerandomkid, mth/m7h), and I can write a really good matchup analysis if people want.

Basically you bait and punish the whole match, juggle well, don't fall for stupid tricks and don't do anything laggy ever. You should never get punched, f-smashed, f-aired, etc.

There aren't a lot of Pikachus, but I fought 2 at SiN and they were both legit, signs of things to come. Pikachu is not easy for Marth if you don't know what you're doing. His high mobility can get inside easy and his spot dodge seems better than normal (no idea if frame data backs this up but they use it like most falcos do).

How are you?

 

[Punishment Divine]

How are you?

This

But to add to what you said Junk, if the DK knows the matchup he can shut down a lot of what you do. ftilt, utilt, and bair are really good gtfo and gimping tools. I play with the best DK in NY now that Bum quit since he's pretty much my crewmate and if they know the matchup equally as well, it can be painful and will almost always be close. There's little room for error in the matchup. If you play it correctly, you can win but one mess-up and you could be eating something big

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Obviously that was because the "person in question" was of little importance and that the "leaders" of the board were to lazy to contribute to such a revision project of that scale.

*meh* I guess but I don't see what could have possibly changed now instead of then other than the person who wants the match ups to be re discussed therefore the same statement from before should hold true now "Marth's metagame hasn't changed". But considering my skill level and getting totally wrecked at every tourney I've been to so far I really can't say much.

 

[Shaya]

This is just natural progression Almost.

Even now many of the match ups are like "eh still 60:40" still this, still that.

It's more like we're reopening the doors officially to discuss how those characters play their game, and how we should be playing our game, how they perceive us and vice versa.

But yeah, match up ratios wouldn't have changed much, but the way the matches are played have. Hence the matchups need to be patched up :d

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This is just natural progression Almost.

Even now many of the match ups are like "eh still 60:40" still this, still that.

It's more like we're reopening the doors officially to discuss how those characters play their game, and how we should be playing our game, how they perceive us and vice versa.

But yeah, match up ratios wouldn't have changed much, but the way the matches are played have. Hence the matchups need to be patched up :d

That makes a lot of sense. Any tips on how to play wario? I have a lot of trouble against him. It seems as if I have to be really patient in that match up predict/bait air dodges. I know there's the grab release but I think I land a grab two or 3 times at max. He seems to punish marth so easily for a mistake.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Sorry I'm late.

But I don't ever have anything usefull to say anyways...

About Sheik: What steel says on this topic is legit.

Dk, Wario, Pikachu, Gameandwatch, and the others mentioned should be rediscussed.

I don't think Marth has changed too much. Maybe just the fact that we like n-air a bit more...and I don't think any other character has anything new that's deadly against us. IMO, the only things that have changed are the tourney placing and the number of legit tourney goers maining each character.

...whatever

 

[∫unk]

How are you?

I'm good BCA from the EPA reppin LA looool

Surgery tomorrow... Surgery is pretty good I think he's ranked but I can take him.

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm glad D3 and DK were added to this list. Even though I don't main marth anymore, and these matchup numbers might or might not change things it still has been awhile since these things have been discussed. DK can be a pain with those monkey hands...
(actually, they're more like ape hands due to the lack of tail and body structure, but this isn't basic zoology).

 

[BacklashMarth]

I'm good BCA from the EPA reppin LA looool

Surgery tomorrow... Surgery is pretty good I think he's ranked but I can take him.

I think in the vs Surgery matchup that your recovery is most important. YOU MUST RECOVER!!!

My ten cents:
I dont think sheik even needs to be reconsidered, most of the others i guess are fine to rediscuss.