LETS GET BACK DOWN TO BUSINESS - Match up Rediscussions

[Albert.]

Surgery tomorrow... Surgery is pretty good I think he's ranked but I can take him.

LOL @ real life turning into "match ups"

my friend and me were discussing his prospects of getting with this girl and I gave it a Match-up ratio and summary it was soo funny.

 

[feardragon64]

I think in the vs Surgery matchup that your recovery is most important. YOU MUST RECOVER!!!

I was looking for the joke in that thank you.

 

[DivineFalchion]

I'd like to see a new Olimar match-up discussion though

 

[C.J.]

Any chance we can add ROB to this? I see more and more people say it's in ROB's favor but I still see it as even... I know he out-ranges us, but, I've never had a problem with him really. Am I missing something?

 

[Steel]

it's probably still dead even

whatever the ratio theres nothing new to cover so why bother discussing it

 

[C.J.]

Well, both boards did have it even and then slowly the ROB mainers moved to ROB's advantage so I was wondering if there was something that happened that I missed. But, if it's just character bias and nothing has changed, nvm then

 

[Steel]

theyre AWESOME for moving it without asking/telling us

awesome

but still nothing changed

 

[Shaya]

ROB's advantage purely by stage choice.

ROB will always be even at worse against you on just about any neutral.
ROB will almost always win on his counter pick.
ROB will always be close to even on your counter pick.

Marth loses by tournament regulations. It's ever so slight though.

 

[Tari]

Stupid question: Why not just re-discuss all the characters? Some of the match-ups are pretty straight forward so.. it shouldn't take that long to discuss it, should it?

Either way, I'm fine with that list.. only real characters I wanna re-discuss are basically all the S-tiers. :/

 

[Pr0phetic]

Stupid question: Why not just re-discuss all the characters? Some of the match-ups are pretty straight forward so.. it shouldn't take that long to discuss it, should it?

Either way, I'm fine with that list.. only real characters I wanna re-discuss are basically all the S-tiers. :/

Some characters popularity has not changed or their metagame have not changed, meaning Marth's match-up strats remain unchanged.

 

[Remzi]

Against ROB, you'll probably be playing on YI or SV as your neutral because you can bet your *** that at the very least, FD and BF will be struck.

And yea, ROB will win on his CP. We don't really have a go to pick against ROB like he does against us. Against ROB, I usually just go BF or SV anyways.

But yea, 55:45 ROB IMO

 

[Xisin]

oh yeah! while i feel nothing super special has changed with the match up i think the GW match up ratio should be changed from 60:40 to 65:35. Marth kinda shuts down the poor 2d guy. If you want reasoning i can post it... Otherwise theres my thought.

Also i feel as long as you keep rob in the air (pretty easy to do.) its 50:50 or to our advantage. My partner plays rob, and i play overswarms rob quit a bit... seems like once you get one in the air they take severe damage if you know how to juggle them... all their aerials sans fair have bad start up lag. Not to mention rob has that huge blindspot on his rear end part of his base. Once against Os... he gimped me within 20 seconds of the match (was a 0 death... then i got him in the air and i 0 deathed him lol... i ended up winning that.)

 

[MEU]

I think the people that need discussing are:

Sonic
Jigglypuff
Link
ICs

 

[Remzi]

Juggling ROB is ok. His Up B is kinda a copout though, he can fly to the ledge if he wants to escape without a problem. What are you gonna do, gimp him? LOL.

 

[ZHMT]

Isnt edgeguarding ROB like Edgeguarding D3? Or is there something Im missing here...

 

[Pr0phetic]

Isnt edgeguarding ROB like Edgeguarding D3? Or is there something Im missing here...

That's what I was thinking. And it's not like his UpB is fast or unpredictable....

 

[Remzi]

Nawww. D3 has a highly punishable Up B, a larger hurtbox, and worse attacking options as he recovers. ROBs up B is amazing (no cool down, can attack out of it, etc), and he can fight edgeguarders off quite well via fair, nair, laser, gyro, etc.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Nawww. D3 has a highly punishable Up B, a larger hurtbox, and worse attacking options as he recovers. ROBs up B is amazing (no cool down, can attack out of it, etc), and he can fight edgeguarders off quite well via fair, nair, laser, gyro, etc.

Well bar his Nair, it doesn't seem too much of a problem, as you can predict the laser fairly easily, and I doubt he'd charge a gyro off-stage if ledgeguarded correctly.

 

[Remzi]

I meant if he already had a gyro, but an uncharged could work too. I think fair is more of a problem than nair tbh, as nair hasa lengthy startup and can be countered. Both are good options. Laser isn't that slow, and even if Marth does see it coming, it still prevents him from aggressively edgeguarding. Then theres always the chance you can get counter-gimped, it's just not nearly as easy as edgeguarding D3 IMO.

 

[Pr0phetic]

I meant if he already had a gyro, but an uncharged could work too. I think fair is more of a problem than nair tbh, as nair hasa lengthy startup and can be countered. Both are good options. Laser isn't that slow, and even if Marth does see it coming, it still prevents him from aggressively edgeguarding. Then theres always the chance you can get counter-gimped, it's just not nearly as easy as edgeguarding D3 IMO.

Oh that makes sense, and I agree it's not as easy, but it does have a similar feel.

 

[Xisin]

Nawww. D3 has a highly punishable Up B, a larger hurtbox, and worse attacking options as he recovers. ROBs up B is amazing (no cool down, can attack out of it, etc), and he can fight edgeguarders off quite well via fair, nair, laser, gyro, etc.

Thats the thing.... he MUST attack out of it. remember what i said all of robs attacks have start up besides his fair and upair... if you're juggleing rob his up air is of no aid. If he up-b's give chase under him and wait til he tries to land, sometimes he will trt to stall if he does this try yout best to bair or fair to knock him off the stage, hes just wasting fuel. Now think about this. You can gimp rob... I've gimped the best robs around by running them out of fuel... on average it takes about 4 hits. or two spikes. Rob's laser is fairly predicatable... just never takes your eyes off him and watch his head... it'll bob back before he fires... its the same deal with gyro really cept he has to charge it. Marth is really good at gimping rob. Once hes off the stage and out of fuel he has to bair back in simply charge a fsmash and the poor robot has no choice but to run into it.

Now to make matter worse for rob on the stage you can up-b from his jab, close range laser (lol.) his dsmash, up-til, his up-air if he decides to shark on any stage. his nair if he decides to shark... if he bairs with his head. (i call it the exploding headbutt.) shield and DB to your back.

If you get one spike on rob quickly follow up with another dair. Why? because rob has to auto cancel with up-b. This means that if you're good at fast falling dairs with spacing one spike means you can land another spike. Which means death for rob. I have played robs for hours upon hours, trust me this works on holy, Os and what not. Spikes ca nbe hard to land due to the pesky up-air though. Most of the time not worth it but if you get one pressure him hard since one spike severly hurts his fuel. Another thing to add about rob is his fuel takes once second to recharge one he touches the ground... not the ledge.

 

[Fizzle]

^^ Xisin covered that very well.

To add on to that, Marth's bair works really well at harassing ROB offstage. Trying to fight ROB off with fair is a little difficult, since his fair is almost equal range as ours. Hit with the highest tip of bair's hitbox and there's nothing ROB can do about it. If he fairs and quickly airdodges, then you're in perfect position for a uair. If you watch for the nair, you should be able to knock him out of it before it connects (nair is really slow).

Anyone know how to beat ROB's ledgedrop bair edgeguard? Smart ROBs will use it at the tip of DS so it's too weak to stagespike.

 

[Xisin]

^^ Xisin covered that very well.

To add on to that, Marth's bair works really well at harassing ROB offstage. Trying to fight ROB off with fair is a little difficult, since his fair is almost equal range as ours. Hit with the highest tip of bair's hitbox and there's nothing ROB can do about it. If he fairs and quickly airdodges, then you're in perfect position for a uair. If you watch for the nair, you should be able to knock him out of it before it connects (nair is really slow).

Anyone know how to beat ROB's ledgedrop bair edgeguard? Smart ROBs will use it at the tip of DS so it's too weak to stagespike.

recovering at different angles and sometimes just drop really deep other times go shallow. Stall with db sometimes other times dont... keep mixing it up. The bair edgeduard or dair edgeguard should rarely work. Also remember you can angle your DS so that marth can go straight up or go diagonally use both variations.

 

[Mister Eric]

Xisin knows his rob stuff.
wutanoob

 

[Snype]

I play alot of DK and I need some more help on him and I even let Pit and Wolf get the better of me.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Well steel when your up for it: I think it's pika pika time?

 

[Steel]

wh y

 

[Pr0phetic]

Is that one of those lazy, whiny why's or why as in it's still unnecessary to you? Guess it's just the match-up inexperience for some of us...

 

[Reizilla]

We need to rediscuss diddy. For haze.

 

[Sake-Hato]

Ehh Diddy?
Just wait for the nanez to come,control them to control the feild this will make diddy go for his nanerz most of the time to gain control back on the stage so when he dose this youll be ready and be able to punish quick.+Marth can Fgrab off the stage to a dair spike just like Falco...

 

[Lord Chair]

Ehh Diddy?
Just wait for the nanez to come,control them to control the feild this will make diddy go for his nanerz most of the time to gain control back on the stage so when he dose this youll be ready and be able to punish quick.+Marth can Fgrab off the stage to a dair spike just like Falco...

If only match-ups were that easy.

I don't believe Diddy's game changed that much since the last covering of this match-up.

 

[Steel]

Nothing really changed with diddy, just he can run away the whole time and be gay

 

[OmegaXF]

Ice Climbers can be touched on a little bit.
I played Allys Snake. Marth Boards have covered a lot on that no need to discuss.
Wolf Matchup is iffy to me. I guess Backair is hurting me. I might challenge wolfs B-Air with mine and see how it goes.
Piaka is not the problem Anther is. The Matchup is pretty much discussed IMO.
I won't say anthying about Wario
DK might possibly need a touch up. He rivals Marth in Reach find ways around it maybe. Just my thoughts.
I'm at work so I can't be as thourough as I want to be. Also I miss the boards lol

 

[Pierce7d]

I'll just touch on a few things, since I haven't really particiipated in MU redicussion.

R.O.B. quite clearly wins IMO. Slight advantage. You can edgeguard R.O.B., but he can edgeguard you too, and furthermore, Bair off the edge ***** Dolphin Slash, so he really wins there.

Wario is just a camp fest. You outcamp him head to head, just never leave yourself open and watch out of bite. Wario is gimpable, it's just tricky.

D.K. I suck that this match.

IC, I now think is slight IC advantage. 55-45 ICs

Snake may be 55-45, or 50-50. This isn't hard anymore, I think it's just a complex match-up that

D3 is probably 50-50, or possibly even Marth's advantage. Actually, it might be slight D3 favor (55-45) but D3's barely consistently chaingrab Marth, and for them to even hit us is super hard. D3 should take MASSIVE damage everything he gets hit off the edge if you do it right. I frequently 0 to 80 D3s, and I get perfect stocks on this character more consistently than in any other MU.

Fox is probably the same, but no one knows this MU right, because there are barely any good Foxes around. Same for Pit.

I now think in order, Marth's worst MUs are MK, R.O.B., Snake, I.C. and then the even MUs are D3, Dk, and I think Wolf is slight Marth advantage.

 

[Remzi]

I'll just touch on a few things, since I haven't really particiipated in MU redicussion.

R.O.B. quite clearly wins IMO. Slight advantage. You can edgeguard R.O.B., but he can edgeguard you too, and furthermore, Bair off the edge ***** Dolphin Slash, so he really wins there.

agreed

Wario is just a camp fest. You outcamp him head to head, just never leave yourself open and watch out of bite. Wario is gimpable, it's just tricky.

Probably 60:40 Marth imo

D.K. I suck that this match.
I think this one is dead even

IC, I now think is slight IC advantage. 55-45 ICs

Curious as to what your reasoning is. Flip those numbers and you have my ratio.

Snake may be 55-45, or 50-50. This isn't hard anymore, I think it's just a complex match-up that

i think you meant to finish that statement, lol. anyways, a well spaced FF Fair is completely safe on block against Snake. Ftilt is just barely too slow and we can stay out of shield grab range. He can camp us pretty easily and ftilt and utilt are extremely gay. I never know what to think about this matchup, my opinion always goes back and forth.

D3 is probably 50-50, or possibly even Marth's advantage. Actually, it might be slight D3 favor (55-45) but D3's barely consistently chaingrab Marth, and for them to even hit us is super hard. D3 should take MASSIVE damage everything he gets hit off the edge if you do it right. I frequently 0 to 80 D3s, and I get perfect stocks on this character more consistently than in any other MU.

Pretty much every D3 I play, even on wi-fi can consistently CG Marth. Its true that Marth can combo him extremely well, but the thing that makes the D3 matchup so hard and frustrating is that he is VERY unforgiving. Any mistake is punished, and punished hard. I think he wins off stage but just barely, and he has a much easier time killing than Marth does. I think it's at the very least 45:55 in D3s advantage, but maybe I just suck at it.

Fox is probably the same, but no one knows this MU right, because there are barely any good Foxes around. Same for Pit.

Lol I've always found this matchup to be pretty easy.

I now think in order, Marth's worst MUs are MK, R.O.B., Snake, I.C. and then the even MUs are D3, Dk, and I think Wolf is slight Marth advantage.

For me-

Disadvantages (in order from worst to best for Marth): MK, D3/ROB, Snake

Even: Donkey Kong

55:45s: ICs, Wolf,

Replies in orange.

 

[Pierce7d]

lol, I was going to say that we've neglected intensive study of the Snake MU because MK has been the prevalent threat glaring in our faces, so we remain ignorant of how to deal with Snakes for the most part. I recently learned the MU after the game has been out 1.4 years or so, and I'm finding it almost easy now that I actually have a plan and a strategy, and I know what I'm doing instead of just winging it. I've always been good versus D3, and now that match is just hilariously easy.

 

[Megavitamins]

Imo DK beats marth. upward DK f-tilt reallly hurts marths approach game, and he can kill Marth at stupid percents. Then again, marth can pressure DK but I still think DK wins by a little

 

[Mclena45]

^^^ I think so too, but, if timed correctly, you can really hurt DK by just side stepping. You side step then go strait into a wave of Side Tilts, then finish with a Smash. That's what I do when I get into that kind of situation.

 

[feardragon64]

Imo DK beats marth. upward DK f-tilt reallly hurts marths approach game, and he can kill Marth at stupid percents. Then again, marth can pressure DK but I still think DK wins by a little

It's not a disjointed hitbox. If it's really causing a lot of trouble for you, try hitting where his ftilt is going to be instead of aiming for his body? Just a thought(not in a sarcastic sense, in a off the top of my head, these seems like something worth trying way).

 

[Steel]

If Marth blocks anything from DK it's a free hit. From there his pressure game can take over.