Le THieN's Match-Up Newsflash: Marth vs. Diddy is Even

[Le_THieN]

You just wait, sir. One bad night and you are gonna change the match up because of it? I will show you the true power of Yoshi! (My powerful johns! lol)

LOL, I'm just trying to be real, good sir. You and Fogo are greatly skilled players (either equal or greater in skill than me, I would even say), but I make those statements purely based on what how I feel the character-specific match-up stacks up. Superior aerial movement and greater priority on half your attacks sounds great on paper, but keen, premeditated manipulation of bananas can easily unravel any and all preconceived strengths in a heartbeat. Diddy's match-up with D3 is as close to a blowout as it gets for Diddy; the Yoshi match-up, albeit closer and more difficult, seems to still favor Diddy.

Of course, match-ups that I feel are "in favor of" Diddy are not ones I think are automatic victories, just approximations of what the chances of a particular character winning or losing against another character are. I'm in no way trying to say you'll never, ever beat me again, but I do feel that I have a much greater understanding of the match-up after our series a couple of weeks ago, and I now feel like it's slightly in my favor.

And yeah, maybe you had a bad night; I prefer to chalk it up as a phenomenal showing all night long against non-MKs. =)

I do, however, invite you to prove me wrong next week. =) You aren't the best Yoshi main in the Southwest for nothing.

 

[Bwett]

O yeah, how were those phenomenal cookies?

 

[ADHD]

You seem to follow your dtilts with another attack, while theres nothing wrong with it, it's better to grab because they usually try and DI the dtilts and shield.

You have a very solid diddy, btw how many times can diddy grab jab before the opponent can escape in general under 100 percent?

 

[Le_THieN]

You seem to follow your dtilts with another attack, while theres nothing wrong with it, it's better to grab because they usually try and DI the dtilts and shield.

Follow-ups are difficult against my crew-mates because they're conditioned to punish dash-grab attempts. F-tilts against these guys tend to be safer, and it functions as a nice spacing tool if they block. Dash-grabbing works almost 100% of the time against new people, though.

You have a very solid diddy, btw how many times can diddy grab jab before the opponent can escape in general under 100 percent?

Depends on how fast people button-mash. My crew-mates are so used to the pummeling that some of them have broken grabs before I can even get the first pummel in under 10%. The general rule of thumb I follow (since grabs are much easier to break in Brawl) is that you're guaranteed at least one pound under 30%, then two from there to about 70%. After that I go crazy. =) Keeps your smashes crazy-fresh.

O yeah, how were those phenomenal cookies?

Excellent, Billy. =) I wrote your girl a half-page dissertation about how awesome you and G-Krew are. Seriously, you guys are the coolest cats on the ****in' block.

 

[B.A.M.]

**** the block? thats hard. hey Le ThieN, I too believe those videos yoshididdy found were a better representation of your skill. love the z-drop and nana combos. My suggestion to you would be some more tilts and aerials. And as nice as the z drop nanas are, while edgeguarding you have to switch it up. It seemed like after awhile u might as well as just sat there and let him recover. No change was made ingame to your opponent reading your tactics. and to me that is the defining point of a pro player. And why i believe ninjalink is so good. You have to have a myriad of tactics. Thats what I try my best to do. It is what will make us all better players. O and mix it up with some pivot grabs in there, they seem to be the flavor of the month haha. but seriously instead of doing the basic dash attack pick up, throw the nana infront of ur opponent run over and just pivot grab into a nana chain choke. and definitely more use of the peanuts those things are great. Once you get that in pop gun cancel would be the next thing up for mindgames at least. quick question, ive always wondered, can you dash attack with a banana in hand if u hold a and use the c stick? that would change the game.....
















forever

 

[Le_THieN]

**** the block? thats hard. hey Le ThieN, I too believe those videos yoshididdy found were a better representation of your skill. love the z-drop and nana combos. My suggestion to you would be [...]

[insert syonryoken's helpful advice]

I appreciate the input, and I apologize that I wasn't able to showcase every little minutia of your recommendations in the two or three videos you randomly watched out of the 40 or so I uploaded, but actually do most of what you suggest on a regular basis. Unfortunately, we don't always have the will or the patience to record every match (especially since it's a relatively new experience for all of us), and the constraints of playing in friendly matches doesn't always prime me to play at my absolute peak.

As far as expanding the use of my move-set goes, there are at least two or three videos where I win entire matches by going the nonana route. You also mention that I don't dribble very much, which is, um, not true? *shrug* But I'm just assuming you've only watched my match against ROB on FD (since that's what you commented on) and my match(es) against Yoshi. I've tried pivot-grabbing in the past, but Diddy's pivot grab is so quick, that even if you do successfully bait a spot-dodge, you will still whiff the grab because of how fast Diddy closes distance. I've had more success with it if I stop dashing right before I get to them, but that sort of defeats the purpose of running behind them and grabbing them in one motion. I'll play with it some more.

As an aside, I've been having a lot of new success with point-blank glide-tossing into a single D-tilt and going for grab-pummeling immediately afterward. It's quite sexy.

quick question, ive always wondered, can you dash attack with a banana in hand if u hold a and use the c stick? that would change the game.....

I experimented with this some months ago, and it doesn't work. Picking up a banana with a cartwheel or just by standing next to one and pushing and holding the A-button will always be overriden by the C-stick and will force you to throw the banana in whatever direction you pushed.

 

[Royal Nynja]

man that guy thein is weak

 

[Bwett]

Dude, Nynja, your sig is epic!

 

[AlphaZealot]

I only watched one of the MK matches, but from what I saw:

-DRIBBLE! Especially after dash attack pick ups of bananas (use the stutter step after the dash attack to either reverse direction or continue in the direction of the dash attack-fake out are easy using this/spacing is amazingly sexy).
-I like the Utilt work, I may copy that somewhat, I don't Utilt as much as I should
-Better banana control! You don't seem to put your banana to much work, its either glide toss toward or away, never up, down, or intentionally throwing them in spaces that will make MK jump/trip/have to work around (force dash attack pick up of banana so you can shield grab him, for example)

 

[Le_THieN]

Bumpin' this hoe. I've revamped the entire OP to make it easier on the eyes, and I've finally taken the time to gather up all the watchable tournament videos of me available on YouTube and have compiled them all into one thread.

I may have to edit an earlier post to handily keep track all of this info so I don't forget these details, but here are some stats and notes from Final Smash V a couple of weekends ago:

FS5 was Texas' first major tournament to kick off the new year. This tournament was probably their biggest Final Smash yet, featuring 97 participants and several of the state's top players and new Power Rankings contenders like Ultimate Razer (Snake) and Sonic (Espy). On top of that, some of Louisiana's top-shelf talent were on hand to play, including their best player (and who I also believe to be one of the absolute best players in the nation), Lee Martin (MK, Lucario). There were 12 eight-man pools, with the top four seeds advancing into (I believe) a 48-man bracket.

My pool leader was Cyphus of Louisiana, a triple threat of DK, Luigi, and Kirby. My pool also had an assortment of mains including Fox, Wario, Peach, Ice Climbers, Marth, D3, and another Diddy player. My record was 14-0 in pools; I 2-and-outed everyone.

My bracket experience is outlined as follows:

• Winner's Round 1, Ty (Marth): forfeit
• Winner's Round 2, Fogo (Lucario): 2-0 (Battlefield, Norfair)
• Winner's Round 3, Santi (Toon Link): 2-1 (Smashville, Battlefield, Final Destination)
• Winner's Round 4, TheJerm (Toon Link): 1-2 (Smashville, Smashville, Final Destination)
• Loser's Round 5, UTD Zac (Game & Watch): 2-0 (Battlefield, Jungle Japes)
• Loser's Quarterfinals, Espy (Sonic): 1-2 (Final Destination, Battlefield, Green Greens)

The first guy I was supposed to face apparently peaced out, so I automatically advanced to Round 2. Before my set with Fogo, I struck certain starters to direct our first match to BF (since I tend to manhandle Lucarios with the greatest ease on this stage) and handily two-stocked him. Afterward, I obviously neglected to mention that I had been practicing the **** out of Norfair, so I more or less tricked him into picking it against me. I wish this match was recorded, because I was pulling out some fantastic, glide-toss-less banana play and burning magma combos on this counter-pick.

It's funny that I ended up having to confront both the Toon Link and Sonic match-ups at the same tournament, because both Santi and Espy were precisely the people I was most concerned with as my crew and I made the drive down to San Antonio. I even vocalized this with everyone beforehand, and, of course, it took some cruel, demented twist of fate for me to have to face them both in tournament. I had previously asked Santi to play a friendly with me at OH SNAP! v4.0 so I could experience what a true Toon Link match-up was supposed to be like, and he two-stocked me. Needless to say, I have been lurking on their character forum and watching a few videos to prepare myself for this match-up to the best of my ability, especially since there is no one in the entire state of Oklahoma who is nearly as proficient with TL as Santi is.

I managed to end of the set with Santi pretty well, and then I faced TheJerm in the next set. He had the same aggressive play-style Santi had, but with a few modifications that I simply was not able to adjust to. He messed me up pretty badly by the end of the set on FD and two-stocked me. I wish this was also recorded, because it was quite possibly the worst I've ever played in a tournament.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm pretty **** comfortable with the G&W match-up, so I breezed through our first match on BF in two-stock fashion. I had a significantly more difficult time on JJ due to bucket-braking, but I overcame that mostly by just tacking on a lot more damage than usual (between 175-198% from what I can recall). Bucket-braking is highly overrated.

I was finally eliminated by Espy in Loser's Quarterfinals and tied for 7th place. I only had one Sonic experience prior to this against Mr. 3000 at OH SNAP!, and they had significantly different play-styles. I got ***** on FD in the first match; you have to watch it yourself to believe it. I took him to BF afterward because I felt like platforms would make his approaches trickier, and it worked out in my favor for the most part. By the end of the second match, I felt like I was starting to get a handle on Espy's transparent offense, but I had already lost stage selection position. I figured the third match would be an uphill battle, and then he picked (of all things) Green Greens - a stage I'm not even sure I've ever even messed around on in friendlies...ever. You guys will have to watch that one too. =)

I felt like I blew a chance to take this tourney, because had I been able to dispatch TheJerm, I would have had to face Infinity (MK), and then Lee in Winner's Finals. Obviously, I would have preferred to face the wrath of 1,000 MKs then deal with two match-ups that I largely had no idea what I was doing in, but c'est la Smash.

On the plus side, I feel like the experience definitely leveled me up.

Philadelphia, here I come.

 

[Esca]

LeTHieN, you're trash, babycakes. <3

I can't wait for you to come back to Houston man, you got me one round. I gotta teach the Diddy boards something. =]

 

[Player-1]

Need to watch Espy ones, I know the guy somewhat well =)

 

[Le_THieN]

LeTHieN, you're trash, babycakes. <3

I can't wait for you to come back to Houston man, you got me one round. I gotta teach the Diddy boards something. =]

Actually, I happen to have an excellent memory from HOBO 11, and we played four friendlies: two Diddy dittos and the others against your Pit.

It was tragic. =)

 

[Deleted member]

so I understand that you like to use bananas? lol

 

[Irsic]

I don't doubt your Diddy Kong in any way and I'm not trying to discredit your videos, honest, but -

That Lucas was just god awful, it hurt me to watch the video, watching someone play Lucas that badly.

 

[Le_THieN]

I don't doubt your Diddy Kong in any way and I'm not trying to discredit your videos, honest, but -

That Lucas was just god awful, it hurt me to watch the video, watching someone play Lucas that badly.

No offense taken. I mean, I was demolishing him for the first part of one of those matches without bananas.

I've played infinitely better Lucas mains in tournament since September (Phoenix Alpha, Pierre, Keef da Teef or whatever his name is), and unfortunately, the results were still the same. =) I think this is just a not very good match-up for Lucas.

 

[Infinitysmash]

I have to change my pants every time I watch one of Thien's videos. Your Diddy is ****ing sexy dude.

 

[Esca]

Yeah, your right Le, you destroyed me. But I've improved alot man.

 

[Player-1]

I noticed when I watched the Green Green matches at the end of the game that you could have tech chased him with dsmashes for a potential kill, but you kept dash attacking instead and dash attacked into a bomb.

I was also thinking about Green Greens and how Diddy might be good on it:
-Low celings and all of that I think is a + for Diddy
-The main stage platform is small, plus it is between two destroyable walls which means your bananas can't go anywhere. Kinda like a flat brinstar with two other parts to the stage after the walls.
-The 2 small platforms can be used to camp bananas or peanuts
-The star things that fall from the sky, when they are stacked, they can bounce a banana on them multiple imtes
-Two platforms, not too much not too little, not too small not too big.
-A barrage of apples, bananas, and peanuts can put pressure on your opponents.


What do you think of Green Greens Thien?

 

[Esca]

I think Green Greens would be a good stage, but it would take alot of practice. Don't take a Snake there.

 

[Le_THieN]

I have to change my pants every time I watch one of Thien's videos. Your Diddy is ****ing sexy dude.

LOL, Sean. I can't wait to wreck with you in our Southwest Crew against EC. I have never, ever had the opportunity to play on the same side as you, except in two piddly little friendly doubles at Andy's. =(

Yeah, your right Le, you destroyed me. But I've improved alot man.

You're probably better than me by now, then; unlike you, I have lived in a state of stasis since we last met, and am exactly as good as I was back in October. I am garbage.

I noticed when I watched the Green Green matches at the end of the game that you could have tech chased him with dsmashes for a potential kill, but you kept dash attacking instead and dash attacked into a bomb.

Like I said, I have never had Green Greens picked to me in tournament before, and I the last time I even saw that stage was, um, when my roommates and I bought the game back in March. =/ I just got excited that I was mounting a quasi-comeback, and completely disregarded all my stage awareness instincts.

What do you think of Green Greens Thien?

Green Greens can eventually grow to be a good Diddy counter-pick, but the narrow horizontal blast zones and random bomb blocks make this competely ban-worthy to me. I'm going to try to see if I can get this crossed off the list of counter-picks first before I consider practicing on it.

@ Jordan: lol

 

[Infinitysmash]

LOL, Sean. I can't wait to wreck with you in our Southwest Crew against EC. I have never, ever had the opportunity to play on the same side as you, except in two piddly little friendly doubles at Andy's. =(

Dude, are you kidding me? I never thought about that but you're totally right o.O We HAVE to team some more dude, seriously.

And I can't wait for the wreckfest crew battles is going to be in Philly. Our crew is ****ing stout dude :D:D:D

 

[chimpact]

Crap. should I even go to Cot4? ally, holynightmare, adhd, ninjalink, m2k, azen, boss, thein

Ridiculous.

 

[Jim Morrison]

... I liked Espy. He knew the nannurz.

Question to Thien.
After you saw how Espy would use the banana's so well against you, why did you pull out more every time

 

[Le_THieN]

... I liked Espy. He knew the nannurz.

Question to Thien.
After you saw how Espy would use the banana's so well against you, why did you pull out more every time

Granted he had more than a handful of instances where he effectively turned the tables on me, but the novelty and shock value of running to someone who only jab-combos out of long glide-tosses was not enough to deter me from trying to sidestep the matter. In the end, I was still able to force the set into the third match (even though I lost stage choice positioning by losing first), and I'm fairly confident I could have ended up closing the set had I been able to counter-pick with a stage with platforms I could occasionally retreat on.

I've studied my set with Espy pretty intensely for awhile now, and I see all my mistakes as well as the surprisingly two-dimensional nature of Espy's offense. I now know a great deal more about Sonic's capabilities as well as Espy's personal tendencies, so I have no qualms with the way I performed, especially since it ended up being a close set anyway due to various external factors. =)

 

[Jim Morrison]

I want to see you beat him then next time you face him :O

Also, Sonic turns top tier with items on :[

 

[DUB]

I like the Toon Link/Diddy matchup.

Good stuff thien. Santi is still monstrous.

 

[Blistering Speed]

All things considered, I think you played well against Espy. He clearly had more experience with the matchup then you and the fact you never played on Green Greens and it's his main CP certainly won't have helped. Throughout the set you clearly adapted to Espy's playstyle, well done.

 

[Le_THieN]

I want to see you beat him then next time you face him :O

Luckily, this just so happens to be one of my goals, while simultaneously being friendly and respectful about it, of course. I can't make any promises, because while I have already made important strides in bettering my understanding with what went wrong in the set, my opponents unfortunately do not fester in a state of stasis and also get better as I do too. I will try my best, though.

I like Espy a lot and I think he is a smart, very talented player. We'll see how our next round of friendlies or tourney matches go if I get a chance to face him in the near future.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Le Thein:

So I beat Quivo's TL 3-1 yesterday in the finals, will post videos up when the dude who recorded posts em. Admittedly, he was playing bad. Still I got some new stuff in there.

 

[Le_THieN]

Le Thein:

So I beat Quivo's TL 3-1 yesterday in the finals, will post videos up when the dude who recorded posts em. Admittedly, he was playing bad. Still I got some new stuff in there.

Great job! A win's a win, especially if it's in tournament. Even though I semi-convincingly beat Santi in my set against him (*phew*), I still got owned by another Toon Link in the set immediately following that. There's still quite a bit I need to figure out about the ins and outs of this match-up.

SHOW ME UR SECRETZ

Pee Es: Any particular thoughts or advice on my set against Santi? I kinda wish the set where TheJerm ***** me was recorded.

 

[DelxDoom]

Really entertaining to watch. Have you implemented usmashes vs shorthop happy players much? I think it might be good.

also I was expecting more uthrow and air pressure stuff just a little >.>

I really like your amazing banana control. :D

 

[Le_THieN]

Really entertaining to watch. Have you implemented usmashes vs shorthop happy players much? I think it might be good.

I've tried it in the past with varying degrees of success. Most characters who camp me from the skies tend to have aerials that outrange me, so I rarely see opportunities to rush in and hyphen-smash.

Applications of U-smash that I have found to be more effective involves using it as a cross-up. This tactic is more reliable against characters with average-to-large character models, but the way it works is that you cross up your opponent by cartwheeling through them. There are a number of things you can do depending on whether or not the dash attack connects:

• immediately hyphen-smash the opposite direction
• wait, draw out their air-dodge and then chase it down with U-smash (a juggle trap)
• if they shield and you end up on the other side, immediately pivot grab

Those aren't the only things you can do, but those are my most common reactions.

Dash attacks that I shield with my back turned are almost always susceptible to U-smash, since the hit-boxes on the move have greater horizontal range from the rear. In fact, most approaches that I shield from behind can often be punished with U-smash.

 

[chimpact]

What do you mean if you end up on the other side? If you're on the other side couldn't you do a regular grab?

 

[Hylian]

Great job! A win's a win, especially if it's in tournament. Even though I semi-convincingly beat Santi in my set against him (*phew*), I still got owned by another Toon Link in the set immediately following that. There's still quite a bit I need to figure out about the ins and outs of this match-up.

SHOW ME UR SECRETZ

Pee Es: Any particular thoughts or advice on my set against Santi? I kinda wish the set where TheJerm ***** me was recorded.

TheJerm was BEASTING that day though. I got 2-0'ed by him in pools lol.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Ill check out the vids and post comments.

 

[QUIVO]

Jerm beasted cause he played me : )

Nah jk, he's good.

 

[Trela]

Jerm beasted cause he played me : )

Nah jk, he's good.

LOL he 2-Stocked me twice at PnT yesterday. I feel sick now

I'll find a way to beat u TL's. just WAIT.

=Trela=

 

[Le_THieN]

TheJerm was BEASTING that day though. I got 2-0'ed by him in pools lol.

This is true; he played exceptionally well, even against Meta Knights.

Jerm beasted cause he played me : )

Nah jk, he's good.

How do you feel your fellow TL mains Santi and TheJerm compare to you, or vice versa? Serious question. Also, are you going to Clash of the Titans 4?

What do you mean if you end up on the other side? If you're on the other side couldn't you do a regular grab?

Reverse grab, pivot grab, same thing. =) Sorry, lazy use of terminology.

 

[Esca]

The other day, me and Jerm had the most INSANE match ever. He started with 4 stock, I with 3. I got him to last stock 98% then the clock ran out. lmao.

LeTHieN. Combo on falco. utilt>utilt>dtilt>grab>grabrelease>dtilt>fsmash. Do it. Live It. Love It.