L-cancelling gone?

[AlphaDragoon2002]

I still think it's a possibility that it's still there, although clearly this is just one guy's opinion. Because I've been involved with the development process (my job), I've seen game demos that have weird stuff that doesn't end up in the final game, or minor things tweaked.

So while it doesn't mean 'lolz l-cancelling is 100% confirmed in you guys are nubs", it does give the possibility of it still being there.

 

[GreenKirby]

NO, the fact that we have FIRST PERSON reports about gameplay mechanics means it is out, you ******* ****. We aren't basing this off of the absence of information, we are basing this on the fact that we have been informed that is it through FIRST HANDS EXPERIENCE WITH THE GAME. Please delete the internet from your computer and stick to solitaire.

******* comments aside, you know how this usually turns out. Besides the topic title said 'L-cancelling gone?' not 'L-cancelling gone.'

And you know how stupid people get in topics that is started by a question. >_>

 

[Sliq]

******* comments aside, you know how this usually turns out. Besides the topic title said 'L-cancelling gone?' not 'L-cancelling gone.'

And you know how stupid people get in topics that is started by a question. >_>

It is confirmed gone in the FIRST GOD**** POST! I assume the question mark represents the fact that it may be in the final, but we won' know yet.

At least read the first post (and the link) before you post in the ****ing thread. At least read SOME post before you post. The title isn't enough.

 

[DRaGZ]

You won't know L-Canceling truly is gone until you try it for yourself on your own copy of Brawl.

I mean sure, Whobby and all, but what you get in the final product is really what you get, eh?

 

[Sliq]

I still think it's a possibility that it's still there, although clearly this is just one guy's opinion. Because I've been involved with the development process (my job), I've seen game demos that have weird stuff that doesn't end up in the final game, or minor things tweaked.

So while it doesn't mean 'lolz l-cancelling is 100% confirmed in you guys are nubs", it does give the possibility of it still being there.

You won't know L-Canceling truly is gone until you try it for yourself on your own copy of Brawl.

I mean sure, Whobby and all, but what you get in the final product is really what you get, eh?

We are speculating based off of current knowledge; this has been stated like 400 billion ****ing times. WE KNOW THINGS CHANGE *******.

Also, real subtle mention of your occupation. Way to try to validate yourself through a forum about a videogame.

 

[Dragonboy2k4]

I went back and edited my post, I meant to say that l-canceling wouldn't arbitrarily be removed in a demo.

So we should bend to your will and your thoughts because you are the majority?

You don't really understand how important L-canceling was, so you don't even know what you are talking about when you tell us not to think badly of Brawl for it's removal. It's basically the most important thing to Smash when it comes to competitive play. Before that, the game was silly and not very skill intensive. L-canceling was the key that unlocked the came competitively and made the game look impressive and really intense.

No,this isnt the 1920s,theres no need for bowing down.I dont do it to you and expect vice versa.

Lets see here,Ill try to avoid "you DOnt KNow WTF your TaKling about"speeches so Ill leave that up to you.Iam just saying you guys are suppose the be the kings of adaptablity am I right?Well,from what I can understand,that skill(adaptablity) is usually effective when there is a change happening on the battlefield.You know,where certain techiques will work and others wont? Well,theres been a change...

 

[DRaGZ]

Jeez, Sliq, you don't have to bite my head off. You simply could have ignored the post if it was that big of an abrasion to you.

 

[Sliq]

No,this isnt the 1920s,theres no need for bowing down.I dont do it to you and expect vice versa.

Lets see here,Ill try to avoid "you DOnt KNow WTF your TaKling about"speeches so Ill leave that up to you.Iam just saying you guys are suppose the be the kings of adaptablity am I right?Well,from what I can understand,that skill(adaptablity) is usually effective when there is a change happening on the battlefield.You know,where certain techiques will work and others wont? Well,theres been a change...

Yeah, and we are arguing it did for the worse. We will adapt, but that doesn't mean it'll be fun. If I had my leg torn off in a car accident, I would adapt, but I wouldn't be ****ing happy about it.

Jeez, Sliq, you don't have to bite my head off. You simply could have ignored the post if it was that big of an abrasion to you.

What you've said has been stated millions of times before, and countless times in this thread alone. I will apologize, though, for the fact that you didn't counter flame, the fact you typed your response in English, and the fact you used the word "abrasion."

 

[RevN]

They probably read Gimpyfish's report to see what to fix XD

Brawl = *shrugs*

I Hope theres FastFalling.

 

[raphtmarqui]

nevermind/

 

[MookieRah]

Lets see here,Ill try to avoid "you DOnt KNow WTF your TaKling about"speeches so Ill leave that up to you.Iam just saying you guys are suppose the be the kings of adaptablity am I right?

Man, that is apples and oranges. We WILL adapt to it, but that doesn't mean we have to like it. It's really lame that you try to bring that up, because it's like you assume that we are afraid of change. I'm not afraid of change for the better, but I am afraid of just downright BAD changes. Removing L-canceling is just bad. The game was already slowed down, this will make it even more so.

I don't know how many times a casual player has gotten smarmy and tossed that at me and other competitive players.

Where the heck are these fast falling comments coming from?

 

[Sliq]

Man, that is apples and oranges. We WILL adapt to it, but that doesn't mean we have to like it. It's really lame that you try to bring that up, because it's like you assume that we are afraid of change. I'm not afraid of change for the better, but I am afraid of just downright BAD changes. Removing L-canceling is just bad. The game was already slowed down, this will make it even more so.

I don't know how many times a casual player has gotten smarmy and tossed that at me and other competitive players.

Where the heck are these fast falling comments coming from?

I beat you too it Mookie, with a very tasteful amputee analogy.

The fast falling is coming from people being new***s that need to lurk moar before they post. People seem to not want to read stuff, so they don't, and just post whatever they want.

 

[MookieRah]

Yeah, I saw that Sliq. DARN YOUZ!

 

[Sliq]

Yeah, I saw that Sliq. DARN YOUZ!

I am a thorn in the side of many a forum goer.

 

[Doomflame]

Man, well hopefully it will be in since the game was delayed again

 

[Zek]

You forgot to mention the part where the removal of these techniques ONLY affect competitive players NEGATIVELY. Casuals don't WD or l-cancel, so why would they remove something implemented by only a minority?

You're wrong about that. Try looking at the other side of the coin. By simplifying the technical side of the gameplay, it's much easier for the devs to balance the characters and the game in general. Advanced techniques like wavedashing and L-cancelling really throw a monkeywrench into things, since they make balancing a given character far more complicated and dependent on the player's technical skill. For proper balancing to really be possible it's necessary that we all be playing the same game. Melee's character balance had a lot of room for improvement.

Also, I imagine the lag considerations of online play were also a factor.

 

[DarkDragoon]

I beat you too it Mookie, with a very tasteful amputee analogy.

The fast falling is coming from people being new***s that need to lurk moar before they post. People seem to not want to read stuff, so they don't, and just post whatever they want.

To clarify, the "no fastfalling" is basically a mutated offspring of "Fast Fall to L Cancel" with "No more L-Canceling", which ends up with product: "No more Fast Falling".

<.<.
-DD

 

[Zodiac]

No l-cancling, Im uestioning whether or not I wanna pick up brawl anymore

 

[MookieRah]

Melee's character balance had a lot of room for improvement.

Yeah, and actually advanced techniques improved balance overall. Without l-canceling, Sheik is god. That's just the tip of the ice berg. I would post more, but I've already posted a segment about how L-canceling helped the slower people way more than the faster people.

 

[DRaGZ]

You're wrong about that. Try looking at the other side of the coin. By simplifying the technical side of the gameplay, it's much easier for the devs to balance the characters and the game in general. Advanced techniques like wavedashing and L-cancelling really throw a monkeywrench into things, since they make balancing a given character far more complicated and dependent on the player's technical skill. For proper balancing to really be possible it's necessary that we all be playing the same game. Melee's character balance had a lot of room for improvement.

Also, I imagine the lag considerations of online play were also a factor.

I don't think L-Cancelling was much of a monkey wrench. Wavedashing, I think, was quite unexpected, but that wasn't really a monkey wrench either. The main problem with the balancing was with the ways the characters themselves were designed, I think.

 

[Sliq]

You're wrong about that. Try looking at the other side of the coin. By simplifying the technical side of the gameplay, it's much easier for the devs to balance the characters and the game in general. Advanced techniques like wavedashing and L-cancelling really throw a monkeywrench into things, since they make balancing a given character far more complicated and dependent on the player's technical skill. For proper balancing to really be possible it's necessary that we all be playing the same game. Melee's character balance had a lot of room for improvement.

Also, I imagine the lag considerations of online play were also a factor.

You forgot the part where casuals don't use AT, and therefore the tier list does not apply to them. Link is a good "newb" character due to the prominence of roll spamming in conjunction with Spin Attack spamming.

The tier list doesn't apply to casuals, therefore they don't need to balance it with these in mind. The casuals don't use AT's, so balance isn't an issue when it comes to taking them in to account. If anything, we would get an unbalanced game and they would get a balanced one, which would be fine if the game was so awesome that the lack of balance wasn't a huge detriment to the game.

Also, if they changed it for the online play, Nintendo has lost their ****ing mind.

 

[Dragonboy2k4]

Man, that is apples and oranges. We WILL adapt to it, but that doesn't mean we have to like it. It's really lame that you try to bring that up, because it's like you assume that we are afraid of change. I'm not afraid of change for the better, but I am afraid of just downright BAD changes. Removing L-canceling is just bad. The game was already slowed down, this will make it even more so.

I don't know how many times a casual player has gotten smarmy and tossed that at me and other competitive players.

Ok then Thats what I want to hear.And no,you got the wrong understand about that.I only reflected what was said to me.Yeah,that pie taste like a$$ now with L-canceling out,but later it will be like heaven.Watch and see

Nobody here said anything about you being scared of change,you shouldnt be because you,Gimpy,Mic-128 probably been doing it for years and it should come as 2nd nature to you,faster than anyone else here.Even if they took away Mewtwo legs for christ sake,youd probably still find a way to play with him.I just dont like seeing mods moan about things they know damm with adjustments can change in the long overhaul.

 

[Sliq]

Ok then Thats what I want to hear.And no,you got the wrong understand about that.I only reflected what was said to me.Yeah,that pie taste like a$$ now with L-canceling out,but later it will be like heaven.Watch and see

Nobody here said anything about you being scared of change,you shouldnt be because you,Gimpy,Mic-128 probably been doing it for years and it should come as 2nd nature to you,faster than anyone else here.Even if they took away Mewtwo legs for christ sake,youd probably still find a way to play with him.I just dont like seeing mods moan about things they know damm with adjustments can change in the long overhaul.

And I don't like asshats posting like they know what they are talking about when they don't.

 

[Teeb147]

Mookie, you said earlier that I dont know anything about the competitive scene. Why would you assume that? I've played with L-canceling and Wavedashin for a long time and have just in the last months started playing without these, and thought it worked better.... if there was generally less lag in attacks, which is what they're saying! Let's say it's almost like auto L-cancel, what are you worried about? The lag is less, meaning things are faster! it all works out!

I see something in Brawl that you obviously don't see I guess. It ticks me off that you guys can't appreciate how great it is just because you're stuck on some old mechanic that they've fixed... that's right, I say fixed, because I see L-canceling as a flawed game mechanic, why go out of your way to shorten lag? Just make attacks have less lag, it's that simple and less trouble, since pros will L-cancel all of their attacks ANYWAY.

 

[DRaGZ]

Mookie, you said earlier that I dont know anything about the competitive scene. Why would you assume that? I've played with L-canceling and Wavedashin for a long time and have just in the last months started playing without these, and thought it worked better.... if there was generally less lag in attacks, which is what they're saying! Let's say it's almost like auto L-cancel, what are you worried about? The lag is less, meaning things are faster! it all works out!

I see something in Brawl that you obviously don't see I guess. It ticks me off that you guys can't appreciate how great it is just because you're stuck on some old mechanic that they've fixed... that's right, I say fixed, because I see L-canceling as a flawed game mechanic, why go out of your way to shorten lag? Just make attacks have less lag, it's that simple and less trouble, since pros will L-cancel all of their attacks ANYWAY.

Well, if it was "fixed", it's more like they were removing something they intentionally added before. I mean, it was clearly intentional.

 

[Dragonboy2k4]

And I don't like asshats posting like they know what they are talking about when they don't.

Better than trolling if you ask me,but hey,you "cant"get what you always want.

 

[Teeb147]

Well, if it was "fixed", it's more like they were removing something they intentionally added before. I mean, it was clearly intentional.

just because it was intentional doesnt mean it wasnt broken... It wasnt a very good idea anyway. If they though we needed something to shorten lag, they should just shorten lag in general, dont you think?

.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Hmm. Possibly troubling. I liked SHFFLing. It was fun.

The Pseudo SHFFL might become much more useful in Brawl.

Jiggly and her Wall of Pain for top tier.

Sonic and his evil ground speed for top tier.

 

[DRaGZ]

just because it was intentional doesnt mean it wasnt broken... It wasnt a very good idea anyway. If they though we needed something to shorten lag, they should just shorten lag in general, dont you think?

.

I don't think it was broken at all. Why would it be broken? o_O

 

[Teeb147]

I don't think it was broken at all. Why would it be broken? o_O

Didnt you read the rest I said? It's pointless to make someone go out of their way to press a button to shorten lag.. why would you want that? it's just an extra thing to do. Once you get good at it you'll do it all the time ANYWAY. So it really just divides the people who arent used to it compared to the ones who are, why make such a division? I dont feel competitiveness should be decided on who got into the habit of pressing a button always when landing, it's illogical

...prove me wrong.

 

[Zek]

You forgot the part where casuals don't use AT, and therefore the tier list does not apply to them. Link is a good "newb" character due to the prominence of roll spamming in conjunction with Spin Attack spamming.

The tier list doesn't apply to casuals, therefore they don't need to balance it with these in mind. The casuals don't use AT's, so balance isn't an issue when it comes to taking them in to account. If anything, we would get an unbalanced game and they would get a balanced one, which would be fine if the game was so awesome that the lack of balance wasn't a huge detriment to the game.

Also, if they changed it for the online play, Nintendo has lost their ****ing mind.

You still don't get it. The balance of ATs themselves isn't an issue for casuals, no. But ATs have a huge impact on the balance of characters, who themselves need to be balanced for casuals. Do you realize how hard it is for a character to be balanced both with advanced techniques and without them? The difference is just too huge.

The game must be balanced for casuals because they are the main demographic of the game. That's just reality, and nothing you can say will change that. Melee is clearly balanced with casuals in mind. My point is that when you take that balance and throw all the advanced techniques into the mix, it's unlikely that the game will remain balanced, as we saw with Melee. However much it hurts the feelings of competitive players, reducing that huge difference in how the game is played is critical for maintaining balance in both competitive and casual play.

If you want another recent example of this, look at Team Fortress 2. There was a ton of controversy over the removal of things like bunnyhopping and grenades, as the TFC fans whined that the game was being simplified for newbs, but the end result was that the game is a hell of a lot more balanced for both groups than before and still has more than enough depth for high-level play.

 

[Sliq]

Mookie, you said earlier that I dont know anything about the competitive scene. Why would you assume that? I've played with L-canceling and Wavedashin for a long time and have just in the last months started playing without these, and thought it worked better.... if there was generally less lag in attacks, which is what they're saying! Let's say it's almost like auto L-cancel, what are you worried about? The lag is less, meaning things are faster! it all works out!

I see something in Brawl that you obviously don't see I guess. It ticks me off that you guys can't appreciate how great it is just because you're stuck on some old mechanic that they've fixed... that's right, I say fixed, because I see L-canceling as a flawed game mechanic, why go out of your way to shorten lag? Just make attacks have less lag, it's that simple and less trouble, since pros will L-cancel all of their attacks ANYWAY.

This is how I know you don't know what you are talking about. Try playing someone who plays competitively proficiently, as opposed to your ****** friends or computers.

I have already stated that if they had auto l-cancel that most people would be fine with it. HOWEVER, this is currently not the ****ing case. Therefore, shield grabbing will permeate the game, and it will be boring.

Better than trolling if you ask me,but hey,you "cant"get what you always want.

You forgot the part where I make legitimate arguments backed up with FACT and KNOWLEDGE (of the current competitive metagame).

You still don't get it. The balance of ATs themselves isn't an issue for casuals, no. But ATs have a huge impact on the balance of characters, who themselves need to be balanced for casuals. Do you realize how hard it is for a character to be balanced both with advanced techniques and without them? The difference is just too huge.

The game must be balanced for casuals because they are the main demographic of the game. That's just reality, and nothing you can say will change that. Melee is clearly balanced with casuals in mind. My point is that when you take that balance and throw all the advanced techniques into the mix, it's unlikely that the game will remain balanced, as we saw with Melee. However much it hurts the feelings of competitive players, reducing that huge difference in how the game is played is critical for maintaining balance in both competitive and casual play.

If you want another recent example of this, look at Team Fortress 2. There was a ton of controversy over the removal of things like bunnyhopping and grenades, as the TFC fans whined that the game was being simplified for newbs, but the end result was that the game is a hell of a lot more balanced for both groups than before and still has more than enough depth for high-level play.

Should I just copy and paste the part wher I said they don;t need to balance with AT's in mind because their core audience DOESN'T USE THEM!? I can if you want.

 

[Blatherskite]

If they reduce all of the lag from aerials to the equivalent of an l-cancelled one, then everything would be fine, but they didn't. People need to stop pretending like the lag reduction is huge, because it isn't.

 

[slikvik]

just because I was ***** in melee by competent players doesnt mean it was broken...

cwutididthurr

If they though we needed something to shorten lag, they should just shorten lag in general, dont you think?

yea...if auto-cancel is in theres nothing to worry about. however, there are no reports of auto-cancelling in the recent demo

 

[Teeb147]

This is how I know you don't know what you are talking about. Try playing someone who plays competitively proficiently, as opposed to your ****** friends or computers.

I have already stated that if they had auto l-cancel that most people would be fine with it. HOWEVER, this is currently not the ****ing case. Therefore, shield grabbing will permeate the game, and it will be boring.



You forgot the part where I make legitimate arguments backed up with FACT and KNOWLEDGE (of the current competitive metagame).

Once the game is out, and we see how much lag there is after the attacks, and if it's not shortened compared to melee, only then will I agree with you. I said IF it's like auto-cancel. Dont get me wrong, Ill agree with you if the moves are just as laggy, but from what Ive seen theres generally less lag, and they may have changed it in the final version. you dont know yet.

Only when it's released will I not complain about you complaining

 

[Teeb147]

You still don't get it. The balance of ATs themselves isn't an issue for casuals, no. But ATs have a huge impact on the balance of characters, who themselves need to be balanced for casuals. Do you realize how hard it is for a character to be balanced both with advanced techniques and without them? The difference is just too huge.

The game must be balanced for casuals because they are the main demographic of the game. That's just reality, and nothing you can say will change that. Melee is clearly balanced with casuals in mind. My point is that when you take that balance and throw all the advanced techniques into the mix, it's unlikely that the game will remain balanced, as we saw with Melee. However much it hurts the feelings of competitive players, reducing that huge difference in how the game is played is critical for maintaining balance in both competitive and casual play.

If you want another recent example of this, look at Team Fortress 2. There was a ton of controversy over the removal of things like bunnyhopping and grenades, as the TFC fans whined that the game was being simplified for newbs, but the end result was that the game is a hell of a lot more balanced for both groups than before and still has more than enough depth for high-level play.

you also make a good point. With so many characters in the game now, I rather they be all well balanced, rather than not thoroughly tested and have some characters be way better just because an advanced thecnique happens to make him top tier (Fox anyone?)

 

[Sliq]

Once the game is out, and we see how much lag there is after the attacks, and if it's not shortened compared to melee, only then will I agree with you. I said IF it's like auto-cancel. Dont get me wrong, Ill agree with you if the moves are just as laggy, but from what Ive seen theres generally less lag, and they may have changed it in the final version. you dont know yet.

Only when it's released will I not complain about you complaining

HOLY CHRIST! No ****. This has been said a ****ing million times. We won't know how the game plays until it is out, but it is safe to ****ing assume the demos people have playing would be a good god**** indicator of the ****ing product! It is called speculation you ***got. Thats what most Brawl topics are about.

 

[Dragonboy2k4]

You forgot the part where I make legitimate arguments backed up with FACT and KNOWLEDGE (of the current competitive metagame).

Well,as it stands atm,most if not all of those facts are apart of history now.Save the new knowledge for 3/9 cuz whats was said doesnt matter due to Nintendo's/Sakurai's changes.

 

[Teeb147]

You know what, I think we actually agree on things, it's just that you guys care alot more about a small loss of depth than I do, because I rather have balance. BUT, If it was like Auto- L-Cancel, then we'd have both!! Wouldnt that be great?

My prediction is that it wont be as shortened as L-Canceling in melee, but it will be significantly shortened generally, and that is what I hope for..

Didnt Gimpy say that attacks were generally less laggy when landing tho? I think we're off to a good start.

 

[Teeb147]

HOLY CHRIST! No ****. This has been said a ****ing million times. We won't know how the game plays until it is out, but it is safe to ****ing assume the demos people have playing would be a good god**** indicator of the ****ing product! It is called speculation you ***got. Thats what most Brawl topics are about.

Ya, and speculation is fine when you dont complain all the time, I HATE complaining. Especially illogical complaining. Thats why I feel the need to come in here and tell you that the game isnt out so you can chill and hope for the best. aight?