L-cancelling gone?

[GhostAnime]

oh, well you must be using crying as a hyperbole. nevermind.

 

[Adi]

They are constantly stating that the game will suck when there is no valid proof of such, not yet. This sinks in the idea into people that were being optimistic about the game. Optimistic people like Teeb are now traumatized and will feel bad about the game, more so, because of their attitude.

*Sigh*, if a demo of a game about to release in a week isn't considered "valid proof" I don't know what is.

 

[Teeb147]

They are constantly stating that the game will suck when there is no valid proof of such, not yet. This sinks in the idea into people that were being optimistic about the game. Optimistic people like Teeb are now traumatized and will feel bad about the game, more so, because of their attitude.

lol. Well, yeh, i guess.

In other words, you should be more conservative about your pessimistic attitudes.

But, I think I dont care anymore, I just want to get my hands on brawl and try it for myself and figure out tactics to overcome whatever lack there may be because of no L-Cancel,

But I still have faith in the programmers for now. I try not to let myself be influenced by stuff like that.

 

[yoshi_fan]

Sure Sliq is being incredibly sarcastic and Super Mari0 is going on a rampage against Sakurai.

but besides Super Mari0, nobody's crying.

I laughed a lot with the guy who was going to quit the preorder XD

Well, you see... They aren't crying because we can't see their faces right now...

I know like 6 or 7 spanish smashers who are going to not buy brawl (yeah, the cried a lot because the wavedash... and now LOL)

 

[Teeb147]

DP.

So, carry on with trying to figure out different tactics and such, but I think we've hit a wall until the game comes out.

 

[Iceman12]

I share concerns with a lot of the people in the thread that Brawl's metagame won't be as awesome as Melee's is. I started taking different looks on some of this, as far as we know, the new waveland is still in the game(unless someone at whobby tried it and it didnt work). That leaves some hope, at least to me. It makes me sad that l-cancelling is gone, maybe it was returned to the way it was before(someone mentioned that already), if its totally gone, thats just stupid, hopefully there will be more IASA frames in Brawl.

 

[xylem]

I dont care that he insults me, insults do nothing. Your attitude is what's going to bring down the greatness of competitive brawl.


@ Soyl. The quotes you found incorporate everything I hate about certain people's discussions. Notice how most of them are from Sliq and xylem though. It says alot.

did you even read my post or were you just in such a hurry to fellate that other noob you couldn't be bothered to read it? or did I hit a nerve with the tonya harding complex you guys seem to have and you didn't want to address it? anyways like I said in my previous post the harshest attitudes you're going to get IRL in dorm rooms or other hardcore gamer circles, I can't single handedly"bring down the greatness of competitive brawl" even if I tried. I got my fair share of flack about competitive melee and I'm certain you will get even more than me about brawl if you are around any hardcore gamers for any sort of time period. of course if you are not over 17 or not an engineering major on campus you may not even have to deal with it.

good luck with becoming a brawl pro anyways.

 

[ArgentStew]

@yoshi_fan:
Judging from your reaction to my post, you missed the general message I was trying to send... In fact, you've been saying a lot of what I've been trying to convey... C'mon now...

 

[MookieRah]

If I could lock threads, I would lock this. So many people are missing the point and the whole discussion is now entirely off-topic.

@Casual players: Believe it or not we have valid reasons to believe that this game could not be as great as we hoped. Take that how you want to, cause I don't care if you are too stubborn to realize that we have more knowledge about how the game works and how metagames develop.

@Competitive players: It seems like we can never discuss anything in here. We get sidetracked by random casual players who oppose our views initially and it becomes a battle of knowledge vs ideology. Sliq, you really need to not be so insulting. I know it's satirical, but you are feeding into their view of what a competitive player is, regardless of how over the top you are.

But yeah... hopefully I'm wrong about what I think right now. I really want to be wrong, but honestly there is plenty of evidence to believe that Brawl might not be so great.

 

[yoshi_fan]

@yoshi_fan:
Judging from your reaction to my post, you missed the general message I was trying to send... In fact, you've been saying a lot of what I've been trying to convey... C'mon now...

oh sorry, it wasn't my intention.

But it's fact what i'm saying. I was banned from a spanish forum because i "wasn't competitive" and they had been crying brawl is bad since the wavedash deconfirmation.

Also, they don't know a bit (for example, the reason why items were banned).

Aniway, i'm sorry :/

@Mokieerah: i'm sorry, i know that in competitive metagame, the miss of L-cancel is going to make Brawl suck. BUt that's no reason to say: BRAWL IS GOING TO SUCK. Is going to suck in the ways from melee.

I wish the spanish smashers were more like you and not like slig u_u

 

[Teeb147]

did you even read my post or were you just in such a hurry to fellate that other noob you couldn't be bothered to read it? or did I hit a nerve with the tonya harding complex you guys seem to have and you didn't want to address it? anyways like I said in my previous post the harshest attitudes you're going to get IRL in dorm rooms or other hardcore gamer circles, I can't single handedly"bring down the greatness of competitive brawl" even if I tried. I got my fair share of flack about competitive melee and I'm certain you will get even more than me about brawl if you are around any hardcore gamers for any sort of time period. of course if you are not over 17 or not an engineering major on campus you may not even have to deal with it.

good luck with becoming a brawl pro anyways.

I edited the post after there, but anyway, no matter.

Yeh, Im sure Ill get a few downers here and there when I tell them Im trying to become a pro Smash Brawler, but so far my closest friends already know it and find it awesome. You're not that bad, but having that attitude and stuff already is what pisses me off, and sorry if it does, but it does and I can't do anything about that.
If you ever change your mind, let me know so we can have an online dual or something. Im out of this thread for now.
chaow.

 

[ArgentStew]

No problem, yoshi_fan... I just hope something happens with this topic soon... :/

Also, sorry to hear about those Spanish Smashers... That is ridiculous... I think people are overreacting to the changes... Strategy is going to be different because we find ways to use game mechanics in a way other than the way they were intended to be used; with the sequel, you know they are going to fix those exploits (or whatever you would like to call them)... The same thing has happened with every other competitive game sequel that I have experienced...

However, new strategies were developed, and their execution did separate casual players from competitive ones... Most of the new strategies came from the old ones anyway... Trust me... It will all work out for Brawl just the same...

 

[Sliq]

Give me a break. Virtually no trolls act like a troll in real life - they know someone will beat the life out of them because most trolls on internet boards are pasty weaklings with no amount of physical strength or mental prowess. As a general rule it's safe to assume that they lack any amount of self-esteem and must make up for it by bashing random people. I don't exactly see why you bother to mention that your behavior is an elaborate hoax because what does it matter if no one deciphers it? It sounds like you're simply using that as a justification for your general attitude.



I don't think I ever argued that adding items was going to be something I particularly enjoyed, but I said that it might be necessary if Brawl turns out to be a complete campfest. It would be to salvage what was left of an innately broken game, and guess what? If you think Brawl completely sucks from the get-go and don't want to help find methods to fix it, you can stick to playing melee. Chances are, the game will turn out fine and the community won't need to explore very alternative methods to fixing it.

Don't think for a second that adding items would be my first choice for fixing Brawl, not by a long shot.

What you fail to realize that I go to tournaments. And when I do, I play people. And when I play people, I play the people I insult online. I'm not hiding behind anything. I have met A LOT of the people I have bashed online.

I used to have a picture of me in mah sig, but putfile opted to change the dimensions and resolution for no ****ing reason, so I had to remove it, but that is me in the animated gif in my sig.

The fact of the matter is I used to be like Mookie, all calm and collect, but just as it doesn't work now for him, it will NEVER work. Trying to explain things to noobs is impossible. So I have gotten to the point where I might as well entertain myself while disproving them, as opposed to endlessly facepalming.

Anyways, fact of the matter is, if you joined after Brawl was added to this forum, it is safe to assume you are a ****head and don't know what you are talking about. This has been proven to me time and time again by multiple people.

I hope Brawl is good, but I am wary due the reasons I have stated repeatedly that everyone has enjoyed ignoring, and instead have focused on me being a jerk, which in and of itself is ridiculous. I have the feeling that you guys honestly thought you were going to turn me around just by saying I was mean.

TOPIC AT HAND:

If there isn't a means to not get shield grabbed while landing from an aerial, then characters with lagless moves (ala Shiek) will dominate characters that do no have them (Ike, DK, Bowser), and the tiers will be super polarized. The game will devolve into a turtle fest, and it'll be boring.

This is only speculation, and no one has said otherwise. I hope Brawl is better than Melee. I am guessing, from the DEMO, that it won't be, from a COMPETITIVE PERSPECTIVE.

 

[Teeb147]

Great news guys!!

I was trying to look more into the whole thing and wanted to see what kind of lag aerial attacks had as well as the speed of shield grabbing.. which was hard to do because most videos dont have players in them using the shield..

Anyway! I saw how metaknight was mobile enough to retract after attacking, making him good enough not to be shield grabbed. Then I saw quite a few characters have very low lag after landing and attacking, like Diddy, and was able to followthrough damm quick, meaning he'd be able to use that kind of tactic.
So then I tried to find every video of Ike I could to see how the hell he could match and guess what! I saw him do an aerial attack against a foe shielding, and you know what happened?? The foe was pushed back so far while still shielding, that it was impossible to shild grab Ike at that distance! (I guess its possible if you're link)

But! That probably means that attacks that are more laggy push back guys shielding! That would make it more balanced... hopefully it's like that...

Ill try back finding the links to those videos..
But anyway, at least it's something good.

 

[smash superstar]

you never know though....im sure we will find tech kinda stuff in brawl down the road...no matter how hard they try they never can make a "perfect game"

 

[DRaGZ]

If shield grabbing was out, how would things change?

 

[Phyvo]

Great news guys!!

I was trying to look more into the whole thing and wanted to see what kind of lag aerial attacks had as well as the speed of shield grabbing.. which was hard to do because most videos dont have players in them using the shield..

Anyway! I saw how metaknight was mobile enough to retract after attacking, making him good enough not to be shield grabbed. Then I saw quite a few characters have very low lag after landing and attacking, like Diddy, and was able to followthrough damm quick, meaning he'd be able to use that kind of tactic.
So then I tried to find every video of Ike I could to see how the hell he could match and guess what! I saw him do an aerial attack against a foe shielding, and you know what happened?? The foe was pushed back so far while still shielding, that it was impossible to shild grab Ike at that distance! (I guess its possible if you're link)

But! That probably means that attacks that are more laggy push back guys shielding! That would make it more balanced... hopefully it's like that...

Ill try back finding the links to those videos..
But anyway, at least it's something good.

Did you say landing, then attacking from the ground? That doesn't work. They can grab you before you land, which is why chaingrabbing is possible in Melee. Besides... that still doesn't use aerials. You might as well have walked up to them and poked them.

If you mean actually using an aerial, video please! Though also note that Gimpy's experience suggests the opposite of what you're suggesting.

I like your approach., though. Ike's knockback is interesting... I suppose the pros can tell us how useful it is, and I'm a little skeptical about that for Ike. I would hope, actually, that all aerial hits to a shield would have enough knockback to merit shield pressuring.

Would knockback actually work?

 

[xelados]

Listen, I can deal with lazy, ignorant *******s however I feel like it. I wouldn't have a problem with people if 1.) before they posted they obtained as much knowledge about the subject matter that is available before hand (like a non-lazy *******) 2.) they aren't a part of the competitive community, but still want to argue why it will/won't affect competitive play, because hey, they have NO EXPERIENCE IN THE FIELD AND SHOULD THEREFORE SHUT THEIR ****ING MOUTHS.

I used to legitimately argue with noobs, but it is pointless because their ignorance and stubbornness knows NO bounds, and it gets frustrating dealing with it OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

With an attitude like that, I sure hope you don't expect anyone to respect you or your social standing. What of the people who would like to become a part of the competitive scene? They'd see you acting this way and might assume that other competitive players are the same way.

If you've tried arguing with 'noobs' and felt it was pointless, why do you take part in the topics that have them present? It seems as if you're being masochistic (by going into the topics anyway) and enjoy treating people harshly. If I'm wrong, then this topic is only a minor departure from your usual behavior, but it's still unprofessional.

Summary: If you want to be respected, believed, or looked up to highly, it may do you well to act in a more classy, civil, and/or professional manner. If you can't make your points civilly, maybe you shouldn't make them at all.

 

[Blu-ninja]

hey hey..

how about this.


we WONT know what techs will be in brawl until we can FULLY play it.

and we wont know ANYTHING about how the comptetive scene will take the games new features UNTIL ITS RELEASED.


never assume things that have yet to happen.

and honestly.....well come up with new techniques to bury the dead ones.

were hardcore gamers for buddha's sake.

have ye no confidence in us inventing new techs?

 

[S2]

I still think its too quick to call the depth Brawl will have, when we haven't gotten a chance to play the final version.

That being said, I'm not optimistic about it.

Mookie said it best in that, Brawl may not be the great game we expect it to be. Melee was loved because it had a lot of depth to it. The removal of Advanced techs may initially make the game more balanced, but who knows what its going to be like at high level play.

We are all worried its going to turn into something broken. But its really too early to call.

Is it going to be as good as Melee? Probably not (though I'd love to be wrong here).

But who knows, maybe we'll find some new advanced techs that weren't possible before. With such a huge fanbase, its only a matter of time before exploits are found. Let's just hope we find stuff that adds depth and replayability instead of game-breaking #*@$.

 

[Blu-ninja]

I still think its too quick to call the depth Brawl will have, when we haven't gotten a chance to play the final version.

That being said, I'm not optimistic about it.

Mookie said it best in that, Brawl may not be the great game we expect it to be. Melee was loved because it had a lot of depth to it. The removal of Advanced techs may initially make the game more balanced, but who knows what its going to be like at high level play.

We are all worried its going to turn into something broken. But its really too early to call.

Is it going to be as good as Melee? Probably not (though I'd love to be wrong here).

But who knows, maybe we'll find some new advanced techs that weren't possible before. With such a huge fanbase, its only a matter of time before exploits are found. Let's just hope we find stuff that adds depth and replayability instead of game-breaking #*@$.

you....you actually UNDERSTAND ME?

 

[Pun]

That really sucks. L-cancelling is an essential!

 

[Soyl]

I also seem to recall people shielding sliding more on the ground when hit.
They might get seperated enough to prevent shield grabbing depending on the attack received.

 

[Sliq]

Great news guys!!

I was trying to look more into the whole thing and wanted to see what kind of lag aerial attacks had as well as the speed of shield grabbing.. which was hard to do because most videos dont have players in them using the shield..

Anyway! I saw how metaknight was mobile enough to retract after attacking, making him good enough not to be shield grabbed. Then I saw quite a few characters have very low lag after landing and attacking, like Diddy, and was able to followthrough damm quick, meaning he'd be able to use that kind of tactic.
So then I tried to find every video of Ike I could to see how the hell he could match and guess what! I saw him do an aerial attack against a foe shielding, and you know what happened?? The foe was pushed back so far while still shielding, that it was impossible to shild grab Ike at that distance! (I guess its possible if you're link)

But! That probably means that attacks that are more laggy push back guys shielding! That would make it more balanced... hopefully it's like that...

Ill try back finding the links to those videos..
But anyway, at least it's something good.

Yes, this would be a suitable way of deterring shield grabbing from ****** everything. Push back is something that occurs in Melee, and is most noticeable from Ganon's fair.

Also, now that everyone is more floaty, maybe people will have more aerial DI, similar to Jiggs, so people can hit your shield with a light move, and move far enough away to not get shield grabbed, which would be excellent.

If these two things are implemented, with WD'ing gone, there wouldn't be any way to escape your shield fast enough to maneuver close enough to your opponent to grab (WD towards them out of shield and grab, standard melee tactic).

While this is better news, I'm till worried about it delving into Jigglypuff dittos with a lot of the characters.

Then again, if characters have different traction, those that slide less will have an advantage, considering WD'ing is out.

Anyways, this is what SHOULD'VE BEEN discussed in the first place, as opposed to our pessimism. Good job Teeb on doing research and providing a legitimate counter-argument (after 5 pages, u so crazy).

 

[Sliq]

Lol I Double Posted.

 

[TheShredder]

I've been trying to play the role of middle man in this debate over at GameFAQs, and basically I hope that since the advanced Melee techniques are gone something that is as of yet to be discovered will add the depth the competitive scene needs to thrive. I'm hoping Brawl can please both sets, but the endless bickering and rudeness from elitists and casual elitists alike (not pointing fingers at a single person in this thread, just that we have plenty at GFAQs) makes me wonder. Anyways, this is my question, I'd particularly like some input from folks with tourney experience: With wavedashing and L-canceling now gone, could that possibly make shorthopping, fast falling, and rolling more so important? I mean, most of us haven't even played the demo from what I understand, and I know we're dealing with a new physics engine, but does anyone else care to speculate with me here? On the few occasions I played Brawl under competitive rules (not at actual tourneys mind you, but with players who were pretty tech heavy), I got by with Link using SHFFL and rolling (I sadly never learned to wavedash), so might that be possible here as well (minus the L in SHFFL of course)? I have faith that Brawl will still be able to have some appeal to the hardcore crowd as well, and I'm hoping that's the case, as I was actually hoping to get active in tourneys this go around.

 

[thesage]

Sooo.... since peach still has her Float Cancel, doesn't this give her a HUGE advantage vs. everybody else?

I really hope that ff'ing isn't incoporated into lag cancelling if it's in because that would make l-canceled djcs near impossible. I think Peach was confirmed to be a djcer in the japanese demos.

 

[Fireblaster]

I've been trying to play the role of middle man in this debate over at GameFAQs, and basically I hope that since the advanced Melee techniques are gone something that is as of yet to be discovered will add the depth the competitive scene needs to thrive. I'm hoping Brawl can please both sets, but the endless bickering and rudeness from elitists and casual elitists alike (not pointing fingers at a single person in this thread, just that we have plenty at GFAQs) makes me wonder. Anyways, this is my question, I'd particularly like some input from folks with tourney experience: With wavedashing and L-canceling now gone, could that possibly make shorthopping, fast falling, and rolling more so important? I mean, most of us haven't even played the demo from what I understand, and I know we're dealing with a new physics engine, but does anyone else care to speculate with me here? On the few occasions I played Brawl under competitive rules (not at actual tourneys mind you, but with players who were pretty tech heavy), I got by with Link using SHFFL and rolling (I sadly never learned to wavedash), so might that be possible here as well (minus the L in SHFFL of course)? I have faith that Brawl will still be able to have some appeal to the hardcore crowd as well, and I'm hoping that's the case, as I was actually hoping to get active in tourneys this go around.

You should almost never roll. Rolling can not only get predictable, but once your opponent sees that you start a roll, he'll know exactly where you'll end up and when and he WILL strike you when you exit the roll. Very rarely is a roll the best option.

As for the SHFFing, it has been the very center of debate of this topic. Wavedashing being gone isn't a huge change, but Lcancelling is. Even though air attacks have less lag in general, it's still more lag than an Lcancelled attack from melee. Coupled with the fact that shield grabs can be pulled off faster, there's no point in SHFFing to land a quick aerial attack when all your opponent has to do is shield and grab you right away while you're lagging from your attack.

If anything, Lcancelling being taken out DECREASES the importance of short hopping and fast falling, since the lag from doing a shffl'd attack will help your opponent punish you.

When you talk about your Melee (not brawl, im sure that was a typo, right?) experience with tourney rules, were you and everyone else strictly playing 1v1's? Or were you playing teams and free for alls?

If it's the latter, it's because anything can happen in unorganized teams or any free for all. If it's the former, then your opponents weren't very good. Since you mentioned you couldn't Lcancel often (if at all), then your opponents weren't that good if they couldn't punish you harshly, specially with link's laggy non canceled attacks.

Wavedashing isn't necessary unless you're REALLY good at it. Lots of people are really good and get by without it. Unless you're playing as samus, luigi, or ice climbers >_>

 

[Phyvo]

I've been trying to play the role of middle man in this debate over at GameFAQs, and basically I hope that since the advanced Melee techniques are gone something that is as of yet to be discovered will add the depth the competitive scene needs to thrive. I'm hoping Brawl can please both sets, but the endless bickering and rudeness from elitists and casual elitists alike (not pointing fingers at a single person in this thread, just that we have plenty at GFAQs) makes me wonder. Anyways, this is my question, I'd particularly like some input from folks with tourney experience: With wavedashing and L-canceling now gone, could that possibly make shorthopping, fast falling, and rolling more so important? I mean, most of us haven't even played the demo from what I understand, and I know we're dealing with a new physics engine, but does anyone else care to speculate with me here? On the few occasions I played Brawl under competitive rules (not at actual tourneys mind you, but with players who were pretty tech heavy), I got by with Link using SHFFL and rolling (I sadly never learned to wavedash), so might that be possible here as well (minus the L in SHFFL of course)?

Umm.... Is this even on topic? It's hard for me to tell >.>

To answer your question though, from the discussion we've had I don't think fast falling, short hopping, or rolling will become *more* important somehow. Moreover, these are things anyone can learn how to do in 5 seconds. If they become more important it will only be because there's fewer things you can actually do in Brawl.

I have faith that Brawl will still be able to have some appeal to the hardcore crowd as well, and I'm hoping that's the case, as I was actually hoping to get active in tourneys this go around.

Brawl is still in danger of sucking competitively. If nothing can replace l-cancelling in order to deal with shield grabbing (whether it's an advanced tech or not), the pros say competitive Brawl will become a campfest of people shieldgrabbing and poking at each other. In such a case, the scene will never really form and you'll be left with a party game. A good party game, but... a party game.

-----------

Anyways, this is what SHOULD'VE BEEN discussed in the first place, as opposed to our pessimism. Good job Teeb on doing research and providing a legitimate counter-argument (after 5 pages, u so crazy).

I'm doubting this research. It sounds like it could either be really awesome like you said, or completely meaningless. How many characters have these moves? And do these moves *always* push the opponent back? Just today in Melee I shielded a computer's attack just before it hit, and I was pushed back quite a distance as if I had WDed. From his description, couldn't what he saw simply be the same thing? A fluke?

I am doubting it until we see significant video evidence, as in, multiple videos where the pushback occurs. Only then (or when someone plays the game) can we know the truth..

 

[xylem]

Umm.... Is this even on topic? It's hard for me to tell >.>

To answer your question though, from the discussion we've had I don't think fast falling, short hopping, or rolling will become *more* important somehow. Moreover, these are things anyone can learn how to do in 5 seconds. If they become more important it will only be because there's fewer things you can actually do in Brawl.



Brawl is still in danger of sucking competitively. If nothing can replace l-cancelling in order to deal with shield grabbing (whether it's an advanced tech or not), the pros say competitive Brawl will become a campfest of people shieldgrabbing and poking at each other. In such a case, the scene will never really form and you'll be left with a party game. A good party game, but... a party game.

-----------



I'm doubting this research. It sounds like it could either be really awesome like you said, or completely meaningless. How many characters have these moves? And do these moves *always* push the opponent back? Just today in Melee I shielded a computer's attack just before it hit, and I was pushed back quite a distance as if I had WDed. From his description, couldn't what he saw simply be the same thing? A fluke?

I am doubting it until we see significant video evidence, as in, multiple videos where the pushback occurs. Only then (or when someone plays the game) can we know the truth..

I concur completely, and nice way of putting it without all the vitriol. pushback is kinda irrelevant as people like link, samus, and marth were built for sheildgrabbing. that lame non-commital jigglypuff sh*t might work against it though. I think overall it's gonna end up like most jigglypuff, peach, marth, and gannon mains are gonna say "no johns, this game is perfectly acceptable" as those characters either have lost nothing (peach has actually gotten better) or play huge spacing games anyways while everyone else is "***** you'd best be joking, f*ck your couch". Sort of like on the whole wobbling drama where peach, jigglypuff, and samus mains thought wobbling wasn't that bad and everyone bashing wobbles was just making nooblet johns (ultimately they were, but people who main those 3 characters had a naturally biased view on the hold thing).

 

[Blue sHell]

Yes, this would be a suitable way of deterring shield grabbing from ****** everything. Push back is something that occurs in Melee, and is most noticeable from Ganon's fair.

Also, now that everyone is more floaty, maybe people will have more aerial DI, similar to Jiggs, so people can hit your shield with a light move, and move far enough away to not get shield grabbed, which would be excellent.

If these two things are implemented, with WD'ing gone, there wouldn't be any way to escape your shield fast enough to maneuver close enough to your opponent to grab (WD towards them out of shield and grab, standard melee tactic).

While this is better news, I'm till worried about it delving into Jigglypuff dittos with a lot of the characters.

Then again, if characters have different traction, those that slide less will have an advantage, considering WD'ing is out.

Anyways, this is what SHOULD'VE BEEN discussed in the first place, as opposed to our pessimism. Good job Teeb on doing research and providing a legitimate counter-argument (after 5 pages, u so crazy).

But Sliq Teeb's argument still has a hole in it.

Yes, if shieldgrabbing ends up being slower OR land lag is reduced enough OR a combination of the two happen, then everything will be all dandy. But the whole sliding back shield thing alone just won't cut it. I understand that shieldgrabbing Ike in the situation Teeb proposed to be unlikely, but what in the hell is stopping the person playing against the Ike player to spotdodge instead and then do anything they want on Ike's stupidly slow lagged body as he recovers.

I've been keeping up with thread since I last posted about three and a half months ago and I've learned like the rest of you that they apperently DID take out the 100% L-cancel away. To think I was afraid that having an L-cancel with that makes it so you have no lag would make the game too offensive, and now we're in the situation that there is absolutely no L-cancel so the game will be ridiculously defensive except if you're Bowser/Diddy/Anyone with an airgrab(who in the case that the game will be really defensive, they'll be the best for sure because they're the only ones that could possibly use aerial offense unafriad of shields)

In my honest opinion this is what will happen:
First the game will be released and it will be known to the world that all airgame has dissapeared. Second the game will hopefully be updated to not have such a clear cut flaw online like Gears Of War was. Third we all will be happy.

And if Nintendo doesn't catch on about the metagame or competive play being uber campy/ground based, then we'll cry and bish about it and everyone will main bowser or peach because of her djc and float cancel.

 

[TheShredder]

You should almost never roll. Rolling can not only get predictable, but once your opponent sees that you start a roll, he'll know exactly where you'll end up and when and he WILL strike you when you exit the roll. Very rarely is a roll the best option.

As for the SHFFing, it has been the very center of debate of this topic. Wavedashing being gone isn't a huge change, but Lcancelling is. Even though air attacks have less lag in general, it's still more lag than an Lcancelled attack from melee. Coupled with the fact that shield grabs can be pulled off faster, there's no point in SHFFing to land a quick aerial attack when all your opponent has to do is shield and grab you right away while you're lagging from your attack.

If anything, Lcancelling being taken out DECREASES the importance of short hopping and fast falling, since the lag from doing a shffl'd attack will help your opponent punish you.

When you talk about your Melee (not brawl, im sure that was a typo, right?) experience with tourney rules, were you and everyone else strictly playing 1v1's? Or were you playing teams and free for alls?

If it's the latter, it's because anything can happen in unorganized teams or any free for all. If it's the former, then your opponents weren't very good. Since you mentioned you couldn't Lcancel often (if at all), then your opponents weren't that good if they couldn't punish you harshly, specially with link's laggy non canceled attacks.

Wavedashing isn't necessary unless you're REALLY good at it. Lots of people are really good and get by without it. Unless you're playing as samus, luigi, or ice climbers >_>

Well thanks for educating me at any rate. These people must have sucked then, because it was 1 v 1 tourney 4 stock final D with no items. The guy I most vividly remember could wavedash, dash dance, and SHFFL his *** off, but some how I still ended up winning quite often (again, I only knew L canceling and SHFFL, and I filled in the rest by rolling). I don't pretend to be a pro nor do I know anything of the pro scene other than the videos I've watched, so thanks for explaining it to me. I just always managed to end up getting him postioned the way I wanted by rolling back and forth and repeatedly making him miss, until I could set up an attack. But you're probably right, although he had his technique down, he probably sucked. And I'm sorry if I somehow derailed this thread and went off topic, but it seemed like an appropriate place to discuss the matter to me.

 

[TheShredder]

EDIT: Sorry, my reply got double posted for some reason.