Tristan_win
Not dead.
I really hope your wrong about L-canceling being gone. Because if it is I'm going to gamespot right now and recalling my preorder.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
L-cancelling gone?
- Thread starter Aerozeke
- Start date
Heavyarms2050
Smash Ace
you guys should also remember that demo =/= final.
Sliq
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
- Messages
- 4,871
I fail to see how disprooving all of you noobs ******** points isn't "helpful." Also, this isn't a "help" topic, it is a discussion, so I don't see how you could be helpful in it.
Also, good one with the life thing. That hasn't been used a million times before with no basis.
BTW, are you going to a college that has the best program in the US for your major? Because I am, so **** you.
Fireblaster
Smash Lord
ITT:
Sliq pwns all those who oppose him.
Sliq pwns all those who oppose him.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 10,479
This is the most important thing to remember. The Melee demo did not match the final version. Brawl may be changed a bit before release. This is why I have given up following rumors and latest leaks. The game will be the same either way. I am happier just waiting for the game (despite silly delays).
Tony_
Smash Ace
Congrats, you've only proven yourself to be somewhat of a spoiled rich kid.
Also, regardless whether its a discussion or not, you don't need to flame people like your some king who is only a **** fool. Either calm down in the topic or gtfo.
Sliq
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
- Messages
- 4,871
You forgot to mention the 6000$ scholarship I have. Also, University of Cincinnati is a state school, not a private one there fuck ****. Furthermore, I earn a lot of the money that goes to my tuition myself (6000$ every other quarter), as well as my student loan.
Please, kill yourself.
Tony_
Smash Ace
You still didn't disprove your not a spoiled rich kid who whines and moans when someone gets in his face, like you have in this topic to certain people. Grow up.
Also, make me. I dare you.
flyinfilipino
Smash Master
Will you both shut up about each other?
Adi
Smash Lord
Christ, the two biggest flamers in SWF in one thread. I'm out.
wow sliq, this guy might know what he's talking about.
GTFO
or why don't you go tell mew2king how much he sucks?
then again who are we to tell you about brawl, that game is for kids, old people, and pretencious weeaboos and furries (ie. people who suck at videogames) as it is now so you can have it and talk about how great it is all you want. But don't you f@ggots DARE get off saying it is just as good as melee, that's akin to saying VISTA is better than XP except an order of magnitude more ludicrous.
What the hell does his join date have to do with anything?
At least you're not saying things about post counts...
Also furries are not people who suck at vg, they're either furry fans or anthropomorphic animals(fox, sonic, etc.).
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Look, people need to cool it or I'm really going to start handing infractions. Sliq, you make valid points but now you are just getting too insulting. Tony... all you are doing is antagonizing him. You aren't even on topic!
This is a warning, any more flaming after this post and you will get infractions.
ABOUT JOIN DATES:
It is virtually impossible to have enough experience with the smash community to be arguing most of the stuff in this thread if you haven't been around for at least a year or so. Most of the people in this section joined within the last 5-6 months and only post in the Brawl section as well. The thing you have to realize is that in order to fully understand what we are discussing you simply have to have first hand knowledge on this topic. This isn't about being "elitist" this is about knowing what you are talking about.
I'm also not saying this as taking a stab at your intelligence either. I know that when I came here and was learning things I didn't "get" everything until a good bit later. It's just how it is.
This is a warning, any more flaming after this post and you will get infractions.
ABOUT JOIN DATES:
It is virtually impossible to have enough experience with the smash community to be arguing most of the stuff in this thread if you haven't been around for at least a year or so. Most of the people in this section joined within the last 5-6 months and only post in the Brawl section as well. The thing you have to realize is that in order to fully understand what we are discussing you simply have to have first hand knowledge on this topic. This isn't about being "elitist" this is about knowing what you are talking about.
I'm also not saying this as taking a stab at your intelligence either. I know that when I came here and was learning things I didn't "get" everything until a good bit later. It's just how it is.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 10,479
This post has ignorant written all over it.
Card
Smash Lord
Ahahaha Sliq, what would we do without you?
What is especially funny about everything you say, is that you are totally correct yet a lot of people are trying to find reasons why you are wrong in regards to L-Cancelling and the Competitive Scene.
Oh my goodness where to begin with that one....Soyl said:
Brawl has more content. More, Seemingly improved and varied gameplay.
Also, Obvious improvements.
More characters, stage builder, better aerial, etc.... More doesn't equal better, however, taking the average of things obviously better versus things only assumed to be lacking (assumed, since no one has played enough to know) It should be easy to accept the statement that Brawl is better.
Also, Obvious improvements.
More characters, stage builder, better aerial, etc.... More doesn't equal better, however, taking the average of things obviously better versus things only assumed to be lacking (assumed, since no one has played enough to know) It should be easy to accept the statement that Brawl is better.
slikvik
Smash Master
Mookie, you should somehow get this stickied
When I first saw the title of this thread (before reading), I thought it was created by some n00b who hadn't read Gimpy's Brawl impressions, but now that I know that the news about removal of l-cancel actually CAME from Gimpy (among others), my heart fell.
I was looking forward to using the new type l-canceling. I thought that it would be the first step towards developing a competitive gameplay style in Brawl. For competitive Melee players, it would be something somewhat familiar to start with as we learned about Brawl, but now that it's completely gone, I think that competitive Brawl will be much more different from competitive Melee than we all thought.
Though it's quite unlikely, I think it's ever so slightly possible that l-canceling happened to be absent from this demo, but could appear in the actual game. I know I'm grasping for straws here, but a man can dream.
I was looking forward to using the new type l-canceling. I thought that it would be the first step towards developing a competitive gameplay style in Brawl. For competitive Melee players, it would be something somewhat familiar to start with as we learned about Brawl, but now that it's completely gone, I think that competitive Brawl will be much more different from competitive Melee than we all thought.
Though it's quite unlikely, I think it's ever so slightly possible that l-canceling happened to be absent from this demo, but could appear in the actual game. I know I'm grasping for straws here, but a man can dream.
Teeb147
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2007
- Messages
- 10,624
Should.., but we're talking to stubborn competitive smashers here. They don't listen to logic and "averages". Everything needs to be exactly like they're used to.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Most people who need to read that have a tendency to not read stickies, sadly :-(.
You said it yourself, more doesn't equal better. More features doesn't equal better and deeper game play. This is what we are discussing, how the lack of l-canceling could negatively affect the depth of Brawl. If Brawl isn't deep it won't nurture a scene that will hold people for as long as Melee did. If this is the case, it's hard to claim that Brawl was a "better" game.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 10,479
We don't listen to logic? Care to elaborate? You know nothing of the smash community's history.
wow you really like glitter, graphics, and gimmicks; boy do I have a deal for you. I've got this chunk of gold I'm willing to sell you on the cheap, like a half pound nugget. you see all these so called "professional" jewelers in the area keep giving me stupid johns like "are you ********? I told you to get that pyrite out of here!" and "lol fools gold". But it looks and feels like gold so I'm positive they're just lying to me, anyways you seem to have discerning taste so how about it? 1/2 pound of my gold for 100$?
Teeb147
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2007
- Messages
- 10,624
he's not talking about deeper gameplay, he's talking about if you take EVERYTHING into consideration.
Gameplay, story, content, and all that. If you make the average of all that. Brawl has more points.. at least I think that's what he's saying.
Since all competitive players care about is depth, the rest doesnt score much points, but to people like him they do, thus the statement of Brawl is better, is not false, only, from his perspective.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
I'm sorry i wasn't aware that GAMEPLAY was not important to the greatness of the game. My bad.
Our "claims" come from existing evidence. It's much better than being blindly optimistic because you think Nintendo is the greatest company to ever exist.
Give you 10$ for it.
Smart.
Anything discussed by anyone is always from their perspective.
Lack of depth or gameplay has not been proven yet. Claim holds nothing.
slikvik
Smash Master
no ones saying brawl will be a bad game. It will most likely be very good. It just may not be a very competitive one compared to melee
Sliq
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
- Messages
- 4,871
Die in a fire.
You know what, I don't even care anymore, because you are trolling without a point. Get AIDS.
No.
You won't be missed.
There is a difference between talking with them, and repeating the same **** people have said that has been continuously torn to shreds by people that KNOW what they are talking about. I don't tell LeBron James how to shoot a foul shot, or why removing traveling from the rules is a good thing.
It is fine to debate with a pro, but when someone hands your *** to you, you don't copy and paste it again over and over expecting them to go, "You're right! I see now!." Not to mention the fact that most, if not ALL, of the noobs in this thread posting WITHOUT READING IT, which is and of itself disrespectful, annoying, AND ********.
Dude Vista is better. It has more shiny stuff, regardless of actual code and content.
This is why join date is important:
I hope you die from a poisonous spider bite.
Buzz, all most all of the posts in this thread has ignorant written all over it.
You'd have to give someone else all of these infractions.Ahahaha Sliq, what would we do without you?
What is especially funny about everything you say, is that you are totally correct yet a lot of people are trying to find reasons why you are wrong in regards to L-Cancelling and the Competitive Scene.
Oh my goodness where to begin with that one....
I'm totally correct a lot of the time, because I ONLY OPEN MY MOUTH WHEN I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT (or to ask questions when I DON'T).
You forgot to mention that they also TOOK STUFF OUT. Important stuff. Why not remove like 6 characters, but add an extra stage. Look, more!
This thread is ONLY FOR COMPETITIVES. Casuals don't give 2 ****s about AT's because they don't use them. I don't care that they don't, but they certainly care that I do enough to come to this forum and ADD NOTHING TO THE DISCUSSION (very subtle poke at you, don't miss it).
Furthermore, go through this thread and find any post that I referenced that includes any sort of evidence or logic to back up their claim, and I'll show you someone who doesn't know a **** thing about competitive play.
****, Mookie, most people don't even read posts in the threads. They just post and read peoples responses like the lazy ignorant **** suckers they are.
Brawl WILL be a better games for non-competitives, no doubt about it, because everything they enjoyed is back, while some of our favorite **** got left behind. It is easy for them to be optimistic about it.
Teeb147
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2007
- Messages
- 10,624
Whoa, you're like a robot.
Not proven = not taken into account.
It's good logic actually.
The only thing is that wavedashin is definitly out and thus one less technique to use.. les gameplay elements, but depth may still be the same or even higher without further playing.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 10,479
Apparently skill is defined as "making the game really hard for yourself".
Sliq
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2006
- Messages
- 4,871
Skill is useless when you have honor. Of course, you'll lose a lot, but you'll do it honorably.
GenocideMachine
Smash Cadet
From a competitive standpoint, it's obvious that Brawl is going to be different. No one has ever contested that, however it may even be broken by default if we continue playing as we did Melee. Without L-canceling, aerials will be of little use as a approach, and shield grabs will be disgustingly overpowered. Coupled with the reduced shield stun and the greatly reduced falling speeds of (most?) characters, approaching with an aerial is going to be virtually impossible unless a few things happen:
1. The aerial is long ranged (perhaps captain falcons neutral a) with a somewhat minimal amount of lag
2. The aerial has very little lag (if this is all we have to rely on, enjoy Sheik-like characters devastating the competition until (if ever) an equivalent of L-canceling is found.
3. The aerial can be performed from a short hop without having to hit the ground first with very little lag afterwards in the air, like Marth's fair.
The problem with all of these? Not all characters are going to have them, making their aerials primarily useless unless the opponent is already in the air. As previous posters have pointed out, Brawl will turn into a defensive slow-paced spacing nightmare, dominated by fast tilts, pokes, the above kind of aerials (which not all characters will have) and camping behavior. Offense will be virtually dead with the exception of a few characters, and we'll be in a game more unbalanced that melee ever could have dreamed being. The game won't be quick paced at all.
Initially, I was quite disappointed by the new (and now likely removed, according to the Japanese demo) l-cancel, as some characters would get little use from it and I adored Melee's L-cancel, but I thought it would certainly be better than nothing. Sadly enough, we need an l-cancel. As stated above, without it we're cursed with almost purely defensive play, unlike Melee's balanced version. Grabs have been tuned down, but that doesn't change all that much, just that we won't get chain-throwed after being shield grabbed. Even that chain-throwing would have been preferable - at least the matches wouldn't take an eternity. The new l-cancel gave us some hope on fast air-based approaches, but now it's not looking good.
What does it all mean? It all depends on how the community wants to take it. Brawl has the ability to be incredibly competitive, but one thing is for sure: If it plays how some are speculating (the competitive scene, the casuals won't even notice the lack of l-canceling) the game flat out won't be fun.
The solution? Items. That's right, I said it, items. Mind you, I haaaaaaaaaaaaaated items in Melee, never enabled them, I liked to play competitively, and loved all those wonderful advanced techniques. It pains me to say it, but items in Brawl (something innately random) will be the only way to balance the game. That's not say that some characters won't be campy, but that's all everyone will use. Brawl reduced to single-digit viabloe characters? **** that, I'd take items before that. We're going to need items to make this game offensive - though they're random, imagine the strategies we could make. Mr. Saturn has the ability to molest shields to make approaching with aerials a *little* more viable, a barrel rolling down the hill gives some initial cover so you can follow up with something that isn't a poke, and an assist trophy could give you what you need to edge guard those lame auto sweet-spotting up-b's. We need this to make the game something more than a complete camp-hell, to make the game remotely interesting when it matures.
I know every SWFer in his or her right mind (for the most part, anyways) loathes items as much as I do, but we're going to have to try something different to save Brawl from mediocrity and stagnation. I don't like them either, and they do add an element of randomness, but that's not to say that items can take skill, too. The set-ups that items create depend on the skill of the player, and I think that items might add just the right amount of offense that we need.
Thanks for listening, I just don't want another completely sheik dominated tourny scene pre-l-canceling, and in this case we might not even get a form of l-canceling, ever.
1. The aerial is long ranged (perhaps captain falcons neutral a) with a somewhat minimal amount of lag
2. The aerial has very little lag (if this is all we have to rely on, enjoy Sheik-like characters devastating the competition until (if ever) an equivalent of L-canceling is found.
3. The aerial can be performed from a short hop without having to hit the ground first with very little lag afterwards in the air, like Marth's fair.
The problem with all of these? Not all characters are going to have them, making their aerials primarily useless unless the opponent is already in the air. As previous posters have pointed out, Brawl will turn into a defensive slow-paced spacing nightmare, dominated by fast tilts, pokes, the above kind of aerials (which not all characters will have) and camping behavior. Offense will be virtually dead with the exception of a few characters, and we'll be in a game more unbalanced that melee ever could have dreamed being. The game won't be quick paced at all.
Initially, I was quite disappointed by the new (and now likely removed, according to the Japanese demo) l-cancel, as some characters would get little use from it and I adored Melee's L-cancel, but I thought it would certainly be better than nothing. Sadly enough, we need an l-cancel. As stated above, without it we're cursed with almost purely defensive play, unlike Melee's balanced version. Grabs have been tuned down, but that doesn't change all that much, just that we won't get chain-throwed after being shield grabbed. Even that chain-throwing would have been preferable - at least the matches wouldn't take an eternity. The new l-cancel gave us some hope on fast air-based approaches, but now it's not looking good.
What does it all mean? It all depends on how the community wants to take it. Brawl has the ability to be incredibly competitive, but one thing is for sure: If it plays how some are speculating (the competitive scene, the casuals won't even notice the lack of l-canceling) the game flat out won't be fun.
The solution? Items. That's right, I said it, items. Mind you, I haaaaaaaaaaaaaated items in Melee, never enabled them, I liked to play competitively, and loved all those wonderful advanced techniques. It pains me to say it, but items in Brawl (something innately random) will be the only way to balance the game. That's not say that some characters won't be campy, but that's all everyone will use. Brawl reduced to single-digit viabloe characters? **** that, I'd take items before that. We're going to need items to make this game offensive - though they're random, imagine the strategies we could make. Mr. Saturn has the ability to molest shields to make approaching with aerials a *little* more viable, a barrel rolling down the hill gives some initial cover so you can follow up with something that isn't a poke, and an assist trophy could give you what you need to edge guard those lame auto sweet-spotting up-b's. We need this to make the game something more than a complete camp-hell, to make the game remotely interesting when it matures.
I know every SWFer in his or her right mind (for the most part, anyways) loathes items as much as I do, but we're going to have to try something different to save Brawl from mediocrity and stagnation. I don't like them either, and they do add an element of randomness, but that's not to say that items can take skill, too. The set-ups that items create depend on the skill of the player, and I think that items might add just the right amount of offense that we need.
Thanks for listening, I just don't want another completely sheik dominated tourny scene pre-l-canceling, and in this case we might not even get a form of l-canceling, ever.
yeah I could see it from that perspective if I was the player I used to be, who spammed dash attack, backthrow, cape & fair with doc and thought I was hot **** (I thought I was top 100 LOL) cause I could beat everyone I knew. that was years ago and eventually I saw pro's duke it out and, very relevant to the thread, RAN INTO A SHEILD GRABBER. he would play fox and just stand there with his shield up like this unshakable pillar of might, and to make matters worse I didn't know how to tech so I would just get clobbered by downthrow to upsmash. Naturally I bawwwwed pathetic noob tears, but I refused to take such indignation and eventually he learned that sheild grabbing equates to being jabbed and subsequently being downsmashed or thrown off the stage against some one who L cancels. It took me a few months to learn this but after you do the lowest form of combat (sheild grabing) becomes all but useless. but now the lowest form of combat seems to be the predominant form of combat, enjoy having your "zomg superior arial combat
" sheild grabbed up the as$.
Anth0ny
Smash Master
I don't want to say that Brawl will suck if L cancelling isn't in, but... Brawl will suck if L cancelling isn't in.
Let me rephrase that. Competitive Brawl will suffer if L cancelling isn't in the game. This pisses me off. I completely agree with what Sliq is saying regarding this situation (minus the flaming
). The combo's won't come as fast, the matches won't be as fast paced and I'm pretty sure that unless the lag is minimal, some characters may be unplayable at certain levels of play (Bowser? Ike?).
Here's hoping that when we can finally sit down with the full version, a method of lag cancel does exist in the game. However, considering the WHobby demo is probably close to the final version when it comes to gameplay, it's not looking too good.
Crap.
EDIT: Very nice post GenocideMachine. I think items are going to be a tough pill to swallow if they are brought back into tournament play.
Let me rephrase that. Competitive Brawl will suffer if L cancelling isn't in the game. This pisses me off. I completely agree with what Sliq is saying regarding this situation (minus the flaming
). The combo's won't come as fast, the matches won't be as fast paced and I'm pretty sure that unless the lag is minimal, some characters may be unplayable at certain levels of play (Bowser? Ike?).Here's hoping that when we can finally sit down with the full version, a method of lag cancel does exist in the game. However, considering the WHobby demo is probably close to the final version when it comes to gameplay, it's not looking too good.
Crap.
EDIT: Very nice post GenocideMachine. I think items are going to be a tough pill to swallow if they are brought back into tournament play.
The_Corax_King
Smash Lord
bah... I hate to quote myself... but there are questions I asked in my last post that were drowned in this ocean of flames...
-Do people who have played the demos say that aerials are more effective?
-Could aerials possibly be more effective than shffl if characters have more air time? Thus removing the necessity of l-cancel in advanced gameplay?
-What confirmation do we have of the Japanese demo's removal of l-canceling?
-Does anyone else remember him talking about improved aerials?
-Do people who have played the demos say that aerials are more effective?
-Could aerials possibly be more effective than shffl if characters have more air time? Thus removing the necessity of l-cancel in advanced gameplay?
-What confirmation do we have of the Japanese demo's removal of l-canceling?
Desruprot
Smash Lord
see the samus vs. sonic demo, I think I recall seeing it being done (Samus does it)
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
This isn't for competitive smashers only, but what the competitive smashers in the thread were debating was assaulted by people who disagreed based upon ideals, lack of knowledge on the subject, or just out of blind trust for Nintendo.