L-cancelling gone?

[~tgm_Zeej]

Guys, guys. All your arguing is supported by one assumption: Shield Grab will make the game broken.

Well, what if Shield Grab wasn't as cheap as back then, huh? Ever thought about that?

I am a proponent of the "we'll get around it" approach, and even I find this kinda dumb. Sure, grab attacks aren't as good, but the actual Shield grab is much faster, from what I've heard.

 

[xelados]

I'm just here to ask Sliq why he thinks the Internet isn't real and/or shouldn't be taken seriously. Each of us is a human in front of a monitor or display of some sort, using it to communicate with other people. It seems to me that Sliq's just trying to find an excuse to be an ***. Your points are fine (I don't care either way, as long as Brawl's fun), but there's no justification for acting like that.

You'd think the person with more skill and knowledge would act more graceful or, dare I say it, /professional/.

Ontopic: As long as lag is reduced I'll be happy. L-canceling was more of a nuisance than anything, even if I did do it consistently.

 

[Mike Hawk]

thanks Teeb147 now i hate Krystal and hope she doesn't make it in the game.

 

[Maben]

Okay, I'm a little confused on how the whole removal (if it is indeed gone) of L-canceling ruins Brawl in any way. If you are talking about other issues, then you simply don't belong in this thread. As far as L-canceling goes, removing it only lessens the gap between casuals and competitive players. At the highly competitive playing, you can assume that every aerial that is done is L-canceled by the player. This effectively negates the benefits of L-canceling as both players can do it, so if it was automatic it wouldn't really matter. Therefore, whether L-canceling is back or not, whether the game has reduced landing lag or not, it should not effect the game's competition.

The game will be competitive either way. All the L-canceling tech does is make the game a bit more technical in a sense of hitting more buttons. It's not adding a whole lot of depth to the game. If someone is a casual player (does not know of L-canceling) then I doubt they would even notice or care if L-canceling was in the game or not.

 

[Mike Hawk]

Okay, I'm a little confused on how the whole removal (if it is indeed gone) of L-canceling ruins Brawl in any way. If you are talking about other issues, then you simply don't belong in this thread. As far as L-canceling goes, removing it only lessens the gap between casuals and competitive players. At the highly competitive playing, you can assume that every aerial that is done is L-canceled by the player. This effectively negates the benefits of L-canceling as both players can do it, so if it was automatic it wouldn't really matter. Therefore, whether L-canceling is back or not, whether the game has reduced landing lag or not, it should not effect the game's competition.

The game will be competitive either way. All the L-canceling tech does is make the game a bit more technical in a sense of hitting more buttons. It's not adding a whole lot of depth to the game. If someone is a casual player (does not know of L-canceling) then I doubt they would even notice or care if L-canceling was in the game or not.

do professional race car drivers use automatic or manual?

 

[Maben]

do professional race car drivers use automatic or manual?

This is a terrible analogy, as manual can exceed the limitations of an automatic transmission. Manually L-canceling does not help you personally compared to an automatic version. You didn't even really pose an argument.

 

[drengist]

I think Mike Hawk made a good point. Those who play the game more will certainly figure out ways to beat the hell out of the more casual players.

 

[FoulPlay]

...With L Cancel gone this game is just going to be incredibly weird tournament wise.
I wounder what the rest of the tourny players think... I wounder if we'll go back to Melee, I really hope we don't...

 

[Super Mari0]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo..........

Oh well now the Mindgames will take over Brawl right? I mean we STILL can Space with DashDance AND we can like.....
ummm.. yeah.. dash dance aand.. well we can still...

OH GOD**** YOU SAKURAIII!!!

 

[Adi]

Gimpy, I'm just curious as an approach mechanism were aerials able to be used as the predominant approach is the auto-l cancel still too small to make them useful.

 

[Foe]

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this but isn't L canceling still in but just different? I thought you just needed to fastfall after your attack like float canceling for Peach in Melee.

 

[Leobenmc]

...didn't Gimpyfish62 say in his E For All blog that the L Cancel has changed - that you Fast Fall first, and then do the Aerial Move?
The L Cancel is automatic, but it still requires a non-casual mindset. It's not gone, it's just altered. It's a more accessible technique.

 

[slikvik]

it got deconfirmed in the recent japanese demo. read the beginning of the thread and you'll know what i'm talking about

 

[Teeb147]

Hey guys. Dont worry I wont be so stubborn this time around. I just wanted to get your opinions furthermore..

So, let's say, just say, that L-canceling is out, and that lag hasn't been reduced significantly. According to you guys, that will cause Shield Grabbing to be predominant, correct? If someone doesn't mind, I'd like to get back the logic for this, as Im a little confused.

Each character has different lags for different attacks, I remember shiek's fair had little lag and was able to follow through upon landing.. if we follow that logic, then some, or most, characters will have 1, or 2 attacks that they'll be able to use and follow through with, it should be up to the player to figure out wether or not the opponent that they are facing is going to block their attack, and if able to predict that they are going to, needs to use one of those attacks with less lag, if not, then he can permit himself to use another one, or faint, or use something more long range..

long range... if we think about it. If using different tactics will be better than following through a ground attack next to an opponent, wouldnt it be good to use items and smash balls? It will make tactics more variant and will incourage aerial battles since you'll need to jump to places to get smash balls in the air as well as items (since it's faster to grab them in the air) I also saw that you could quickly hit barrels and such to propel them at people, that seems interesting.

..also, let's not forget that some characters like metaknight, should be able to attack in the air and then retract without landing next to them.. in all, it seems like there are many possibilities.. and even more so with items. Do you think you guys would allow the use of items in this case?

What do you think? I honestly just want your opinions on this.

 

[Adi]

Each character has different lags for different attacks, I remember shiek's fair had little lag and was able to follow through upon landing.. if we follow that logic, then some, or most, characters will have 1, or 2 attacks that they'll be able to use and follow through with,

The thing was sheik was the only one who had such low lag on her aerials, that's why she was overpowered, we can't assume that all characters will have such aerials, and in fact we know many of the chars have really laggy aerials.

it should be up to the player to figure out wether or not the opponent that they are facing is going to block their attack, and if able to predict that they are going to, needs to use one of those attacks with less lag, if not, then he can permit himself to use another one, or faint, or use something more long range..

Not all the characters have long range attacks, just as not all of them will have fast aerials. Even if you can easily predict they are going to block it the problem is you really can't do anything to punish them. You can't follow your aerial with a grab, I suppose you could just feint and not do the aerial, but it's pretty obvious to predict in a certain point of a jump whether you will do an aerial or not. Shield grabbing still remains a incredible counter to any of these offensive manuevers.

long range... if we think about it. If using different tactics will be better than following through a ground attack next to an opponent, wouldnt it be good to use items and smash balls? It will make tactics more variant and will incourage aerial battles since you'll need to jump to places to get smash balls in the air as well as items (since it's faster to grab them in the air) I also saw that you could quickly hit barrels and such to propel them at people, that seems interesting.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you saying the inclusion of items will allow players to play more offensively and utilize their aerials or it will add more depth.

..also, let's not forget that some characters like metaknight, should be able to attack in the air and then retract without landing next to them.. in all, it seems like there are many possibilities.. and even more so with items. Do you think you guys would allow the use of items in this case?

I'm not sure how you think items will add more depth to the game. Please explain.

 

[Sliq]

Guys, guys. All your arguing is supported by one assumption: Shield Grab will make the game broken.

Well, what if Shield Grab wasn't as cheap as back then, huh? Ever thought about that?

Shield grabbing has already been confirmed better. Kill yourself you lazy misinformed *******.

I'm just here to ask Sliq why he thinks the Internet isn't real and/or shouldn't be taken seriously. Each of us is a human in front of a monitor or display of some sort, using it to communicate with other people. It seems to me that Sliq's just trying to find an excuse to be an ***. Your points are fine (I don't care either way, as long as Brawl's fun), but there's no justification for acting like that.

You'd think the person with more skill and knowledge would act more graceful or, dare I say it, /professional/.

Ontopic: As long as lag is reduced I'll be happy. L-canceling was more of a nuisance than anything, even if I did do it consistently.

Listen, I can deal with lazy, ignorant *******s however I feel like it. I wouldn't have a problem with people if 1.) before they posted they obtained as much knowledge about the subject matter that is available before hand (like a non-lazy *******) 2.) they aren't a part of the competitive community, but still want to argue why it will/won't affect competitive play, because hey, they have NO EXPERIENCE IN THE FIELD AND SHOULD THEREFORE SHUT THEIR ****ING MOUTHS.

I used to legitimately argue with noobs, but it is pointless because their ignorance and stubbornness knows NO bounds, and it gets frustrating dealing with it OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

Okay, I'm a little confused on how the whole removal (if it is indeed gone) of L-canceling ruins Brawl in any way. If you are talking about other issues, then you simply don't belong in this thread. As far as L-canceling goes, removing it only lessens the gap between casuals and competitive players. At the highly competitive playing, you can assume that every aerial that is done is L-canceled by the player. This effectively negates the benefits of L-canceling as both players can do it, so if it was automatic it wouldn't really matter. Therefore, whether L-canceling is back or not, whether the game has reduced landing lag or not, it should not effect the game's competition.

The game will be competitive either way. All the L-canceling tech does is make the game a bit more technical in a sense of hitting more buttons. It's not adding a whole lot of depth to the game. If someone is a casual player (does not know of L-canceling) then I doubt they would even notice or care if L-canceling was in the game or not.

You are so stupid, I hate you so much. If landing aerial lag isn't reduced, then EVERY AERIAL WILL BE SHIELD GRABBED. If every aerial is sheild grabbed, NO ONE WILL DO AERIALS. Then the game becomes about poking, spacing, and turtling, making the game MUCH more boring. I have said all of this already, but you are too lazy to read the ****ing thread and just jump in with your massive amounts of stupidity.

Also, it should be noted, removing ANYTHING already decreases depth, unless you replace it with something of equal or greater value (which hasn't happened).

Gimpy, I'm just curious as an approach mechanism were aerials able to be used as the predominant approach is the auto-l cancel still too small to make them useful.

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this but isn't L canceling still in but just different? I thought you just needed to fastfall after your attack like float canceling for Peach in Melee.

...didn't Gimpyfish62 say in his E For All blog that the L Cancel has changed - that you Fast Fall first, and then do the Aerial Move?
The L Cancel is automatic, but it still requires a non-casual mindset. It's not gone, it's just altered. It's a more accessible technique.

READ THE THREAD LAZY *******S.

The new way of l-canceling and the old way are both gone as of Whobby. JESUS CHRIST.

 

[Teeb147]

I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you saying the inclusion of items will allow players to play more offensively and utilize their aerials or it will add more depth.

I'm not sure how you think items will add more depth to the game. Please explain.

Well, if the character you're using doesnt really have good ways of following through an attack to the ground, that just means he'll have to use different tactics. By adding Items you're improving the amount of tactics that character can utilize, and because alot more people will attempt to go after items, they will be airborne more often, meaning that aerial battles will be more frequent. I see it as more depth since aerial battles seems to have more possibilities this time around.

The only problem is.. if you're right and alot of characters dont have good ways of attacking people without being shield grabbed... that'll create huge ranges of tier lists, and the faster aerial attacking people will have a huge advantage... now that I think about it seems way too obvious, and it seems to me like it'd be obvious to the developpers and testers as well, else the game wouldnt be balanced at all for competitive play! That's why I think they fixed this somehow... because it's too obvious. And if they didn't which is alot of people's claim in this thread.. then yes, I agree L-canceling being gone is a huge flaw in the game's competitive design...

I hope to god that this isn't the case.



Edit: 666 posts! I be the devil!

 

[slikvik]

..also, let's not forget that some characters like metaknight, should be able to attack in the air and then retract without landing next to them.. in all, it seems like there are many possibilities.. and even more so with items. Do you think you guys would allow the use of items in this case?

What do you think? I honestly just want your opinions on this.

I actually agree with you that characters with multiple jumps may have an advantage in this game.

Competitive play will not utilize items. the only way that will happen is if casual players decide they want to be competitive and start hosting their own tournaments. melee tournaments originally had items. however the community eventually it wasn't the way to go with money on the line

 

[Wyvern]

Hey guys. Dont worry I wont be so stubborn this time around. I just wanted to get your opinions furthermore..

So, let's say, just say, that L-canceling is out, and that lag hasn't been reduced significantly. According to you guys, that will cause Shield Grabbing to be predominant, correct? If someone doesn't mind, I'd like to get back the logic for this, as Im a little confused.

Each character has different lags for different attacks, I remember shiek's fair had little lag and was able to follow through upon landing.. if we follow that logic, then some, or most, characters will have 1, or 2 attacks that they'll be able to use and follow through with, it should be up to the player to figure out wether or not the opponent that they are facing is going to block their attack, and if able to predict that they are going to, needs to use one of those attacks with less lag, if not, then he can permit himself to use another one, or faint, or use something more long range..

Even if a few attacks are not quite as bad as we're picturing, the fact remains that the attacker's lag is greater than it would have been in Melee, and the defender's ability to shield grab is greater than it would have been in Melee. Since offense and defense were more or less balanced in Melee, that still leads to a significant advantage to the defender, which is bad. Besides, in Melee, pretty much any aerial can be sped up to the point of being a viable approach. Limiting us to one per character is still a step down, and characters who aren't graced with a good one have no way to make up for it. This isn't baseless assumption, this is the logical conclusion of the evidence that has been observed. Unless something completely unexpected appears from nowhere, the defender should have an advantage over an attacker in most or all circumstances.

long range... if we think about it. If using different tactics will be better than following through a ground attack next to an opponent, wouldnt it be good to use items and smash balls? It will make tactics more variant and will incourage aerial battles since you'll need to jump to places to get smash balls in the air as well as items (since it's faster to grab them in the air) I also saw that you could quickly hit barrels and such to propel them at people, that seems interesting.

..also, let's not forget that some characters like metaknight, should be able to attack in the air and then retract without landing next to them.. in all, it seems like there are many possibilities.. and even more so with items. Do you think you guys would allow the use of items in this case?

Items and smash balls solve nothing. The problem that we are facing is that since the defender always has the advantage, nobody will want to attack. Players would do better to stand on opposite sides of the stage and pepper the opponent with projectiles (if they have any). The only thing randomly-spawning items do is make it so that every once in a while, in between the pointless camping, there will be a mad rush for the item, and the player who gets it (almost always the player who it spawns closest to) will win. The emphasis on camping rather than driving the match forward remains unchanged, and that's what the problem is.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

Shield grabbing has already been confirmed better. Kill yourself you lazy misinformed *******.

well.... while grabbing itself seemed to be much faster, throws in general seemed much less useful.

this isn't like running into sheik/ganon and getting throw -> air every single time you approach

the hitstun on throws is far less, so you can escape from a lot of throw combos if you react correctly.

 

[Adi]

Gimpy, I'm just curious as an approach mechanism were aerials able to be used as the predominant approach or is the auto-l cancel still too small to make them useful.

READ THE THREAD LAZY *******S.

The new way of l-canceling and the old way are both gone as of Whobby. JESUS CHRIST.

I am fully aware of this. Perhaps I misphrased my question. I should have said "does the reduced lag on aerials" rather then "auto L-cancel", but it still seems fairly clear to me.

 

[Maben]

Sliq you are just an ******* who has to revert to ad hominem arguments to defend your position instead of rationally debating.

 

[Sliq]

I am fully aware of this. Perhaps I misphrased my question. I should have said "does the reduced lag on aerials" rather then "auto L-cancel", but it still seems fairly clear to me.

The reduced aerial lag isn't enough.

Sliq you are just an ******* who has to revert to ad hominem arguments to defend your position instead of rationally debating.

Good job using words you learned the meaning of on Wikipedia.

Anyways, you forgot to mention the part where I'm wrong about my claims. Go ahead, go through my posts and point out instances where I am wrong (not about the person, but about the material at hand).

Also, nice off topic post. I sincerely believe that you thought your post would make me turn my posting style around, which makes you ********.

 

[Teeb147]

Even if a few attacks are not quite as bad as we're picturing, the fact remains that the attacker's lag is greater than it would have been in Melee, and the defender's ability to shield grab is greater than it would have been in Melee. Since offense and defense were more or less balanced in Melee, that still leads to a significant advantage to the defender, which is bad. Besides, in Melee, pretty much any aerial can be sped up to the point of being a viable approach. Limiting us to one per character is still a step down, and characters who aren't graced with a good one have no way to make up for it. This isn't baseless assumption, this is the logical conclusion of the evidence that has been observed. Unless something completely unexpected appears from nowhere, the defender should have an advantage over an attacker in most or all circumstances.

True, I wont disagree. I 've somewhat understood this from the very beginning.. I was just sooo sure that it was too obvious of a flaw to even think of the possibility of it being in flawed in the game. ... Hopefully characters will AT LEAST have 1 to 3 attacks that have been reduced significantly enough to be able to follow through upon landing.. at least that.. mmm, so you think the developpers would really leave such a huge flaw in the competitive aspect? I think that's the point I've been having trouble with.

Items and smash balls solve nothing. The problem that we are facing is that since the defender always has the advantage, nobody will want to attack. Players would do better to stand on opposite sides of the stage and pepper the opponent with projectiles (if they have any). The only thing randomly-spawning items do is make it so that every once in a while, in between the pointless camping, there will be a mad rush for the item, and the player who gets it (almost always the player who it spawns closest to) will win. The emphasis on camping rather than driving the match forward remains unchanged, and that's what the problem is.

I see what you mean. At least with smash balls there's more strategy to it since you wont be able to bust right away. As for items.. if there's enough of them both sides would be able to use them most of the time.. but that would mean practically having item battles all the time... unless a few items would spawn near each character, .. that would be cool but I doupt it's that balanced.

At least the smash balls could be considered in competitive play.. and that would at least allow me to play as zero suit samus if she's not selectable from the screen.

I guess for me it's purely a wait a see at this point. Though it did give me a bit more faith hearing that the attacks have less lag than melee upon landing... but I guess the fact that shield grabbing is better counters that huh?.. We'll see. I'll still play competitively once the game comes out.

..How the hell is Ike going to be able to beat a pro????

 

[Adi]

well.... while grabbing itself seemed to be much faster, throws in general seemed much less useful.

this isn't like running into sheik/ganon and getting throw -> air every single time you approach

the hitstun on throws is far less, so you can escape from a lot of throw combos if you react correctly.

Although this alleviates the problem concerning the strength of grabs it does not solve the problem of grabs being used as the predominant defensive counter.

 

[Sliq]

well.... while grabbing itself seemed to be much faster, throws in general seemed much less useful.

this isn't like running into sheik/ganon and getting throw -> air every single time you approach

the hitstun on throws is far less, so you can escape from a lot of throw combos if you react correctly.

Already mentioned this. Learn2Read.

True, I wont disagree. I 've somewhat understood this from the very beginning.. I was just sooo sure that it was too obvious of a flaw to even think of the possibility of it being in flawed in the game. ... Hopefully characters will AT LEAST have 1 to 3 attacks that have been reduced significantly enough to be able to follow through upon landing.. at least that.. mmm, so you think the developpers would really leave such a huge flaw in the competitive aspect? I think that's the point I've been having trouble with.



I see what you mean. At least with smash balls there's more strategy to it since you wont be able to bust right away. As for items.. if there's enough of them both sides would be able to use them most of the time.. but that would mean practically having item battles all the time... unless a few items would spawn near each character, .. that would be cool but I doupt it's that balanced.

At least the smash balls could be considered in competitive play.. and that would at least allow me to play as zero suit samus if she's not selectable from the screen.

I guess for me it's purely a wait a see at this point. Though it did give me a bit more faith hearing that the attacks have less lag than melee upon landing... but I guess the fact that shield grabbing is better counters that huh?.. We'll see. I'll still play competitively once the game comes out.

..How the hell is Ike going to be able to beat a pro????

All we can do is hope that we are wrong and that the game is balanced. But if our assertions are correct, it will not be super awesome.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

i dont read topics or posts i'm a moderator sliq lol

 

[MookieRah]

i dont read topics or posts i'm a moderator sliq lol

Silly Gimpy. I'm a mod and I read topics! You can do it tooooooo.

 

[Sliq]

i dont read topics or posts i'm a moderator sliq lol

You so crazy. But yeah, it gets annoying having to say the same thing over and over again because people don't read. I'm about to just start copying and pasting all of my responses over and over to save me some time.

 

[Teeb147]

All we can do is hope that we are wrong and that the game is balanced. But if our assertions are correct, it will not be super awesome.

Exactly.
When I stopped using L-canceling in melee I didn't mind trying to figure out different tactics to get the opponent into my attacks.... alot more mindgames, but then again I didnt face any top pros, only a few decent players since smash aint that big in my commnity.
I can't wait to see how competitive brawl becomes.
The only thing that'll annoy me big time is if certain characters have HUGE advantages just because they have less lag when landing after attacking. Hopefully other tactics will be useful enough as to render aerial attacking to the ground not such a big thing in the competition... if you know what I mean.

 

[The Noob Legend]

As far as we know...

Only wavedashing has left the building...

 

[Sliq]

Exactly.
When I stopped using L-canceling in melee I didn't mind trying to figure out different tactics to get the opponent into my attacks.... alot more mindgames, but then again I didnt face any top pros, only a few decent players since smash aint that big in my commnity.
I can't wait to see how competitive brawl becomes.
The only thing that'll annoy me big time is if certain characters have HUGE advantages just because they have less lag when landing after attacking. Hopefully other tactics will be useful enough as to render aerial attacking to the ground not such a lack in the competition.

You see, if you could, you know, l-cancel with EVERY character, then this disadvantage is gone, even if it is the arbitrary hit l as you land.

Also, I forgot to mention that for l-canceling, if you get hit before you land after hitting l or r to lag cancel, you can't tech for a certain number of frames afterwards, which can lead to you getting punished. So the pushing of the l also leads to you being punished if you do something stupid, so it isn't entirely arbitrary.

As far as we know...

Only wavedashing has left the building...

I hate you.

 

[Maben]

I really don't see how calling people stupid, putting them down, and saying you hate them helps your arguments in any way. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying that you're being an jerk to everyone. Oh, and saying that we are on the "internetz" isn't really an excuse for treating people like ****.

 

[Sliq]

I really don't see how calling people stupid, putting them down, and saying you hate them helps your arguments in any way. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying that you're being an jerk to everyone. Oh, and saying that we are on the "internetz" isn't really an excuse for treating people like ****.

Well then, don't treat me like an *** by ignoring all of my ****ing posts in which I have already wrecked your point about Brawl.

 

[Adi]

Teehee, Brawl boards.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

so lag - cancel (fast fall after aerial to reduce lag) is out? Does this mean the original L(button) -cancel is back in?

 

[Mike Hawk]

could be(if you want to be optimistic about it) then again its a demo and we all know how reliable demos are.

also i would like to point out my first tournament experience (for the sake of argument) the first tournament i went to was before i knew what L-cancel was and i believe it might have been discovered that month anyways i got to the finals of the tourney and it was me (mario) vs some guy (ganondorf) he would do a lot of aerials but never L-cancel(at least not that i can remember) he owned me for half the match but then i got the idea to shield grab him, figured he was too slow to escape and the best way to win was to defend.
needless to say, i won that tourney by being a cheating piece of ****, not proud of that.

 

[Tony_]

You all (with the exception of a few) are acting like immature children who can't learn to cope with a loss.

Sliq, either be helpful or shut up. No one wants to read over 21 pages of info. Especially people that have something called a life.

 

[The_Corax_King]

(off flame... on topic...)

This is just a thought...

I remember Sakurai commenting on the game being more aerial based... meaning he gave the characters more time in the air than melee... and made aerials better...

Now, people have said that brawl seems "floatier"... while other people at the demo said there wasn't much of a difference...

If air games really are better... then l-cancelling might not be necessary... (unless you can still l-cancel by fastfalling way high in the air??)

Otherwise improved aerials = uber shffl if L-cancelling were still in... so removing it might be a way to balance the game... and totally change the way we fight from melee... I do remember seeing a comment somewhere about air games being more important... which sounds very interesting...

Like I said this is just a thought... I'm not saying it's true by any means...


Also... how sure are we that L-cancel has been removed ??

 

[Kel]

so lag - cancel (fast fall after aerial to reduce lag) is out? Does this mean the original L(button) -cancel is back in?

That's a pretty funny point. We know the **** tried the new l-cancel, but did they try the old one once they realized the new one was gone?