L-cancelling gone?

[Blatherskite]

Okay, first of all, this is all from a demo of a game that was still 3 months away from being finished. Serious balancing is something that would have happened towards the end of development. So they could easily have fixed any balance problems from back then by now.

More importantly, this is from a small handful of decent players playing for a very short period of time. With all the changes from Melee to Brawl there is absolutely no way they could have any idea how the long-term balance of the game is going to work out. Compare that to the devs that have been working on this game every day for years and it would be ridiculous for anyone at E4All to claim to know more than the devs about balance, let alone someone like you who has done nothing but read their feedback and watch videos. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Your first statement is just wishful thinking, so I'm not even going to treat it like an actual argument.

As for your second, it doesn't take a plethora of information to figure out that the game isn't going to be balanced. The very fact that all of the characters have radically different moves is all you need to know that it won't be balanced. And this statement is the very heart of every "Tiers are going to be in Brawl" argument out there. If you want to read more about it, then go look up one of the 20 topics about it on Gamefaqs. And when the hell did I say that I knew more about balance than the devs? Oh that's right! NEVER.

 

[Teeb147]

Yes, no lag would be silly. But full lag is equally silly. You need a balance so that shield grabs apply to mistimed aerials (i.e. hitting the top of the shield) and laggy ground moves. Not EVERY move.

Sweet, finally. Something To agree with.

I agree 100% with that statement.

There's alot more to it though, but to me, that very thing seems so logical that it would be weird if it wasnt balanced like you're saying in the final version of the game.. sooo, really It's more about having faith in the developpers..
You guys say you can tell from what you've seen, and I disagree. I'll agree to it lacking once we've confirmed it.
And even without lag cancel, there's tons of other stuff to put your skills into.

I wasnt just trying to make that point, I was just annoyed by all the negativity...
Have faith people.


Debating is fun :D

 

[Silhouette]

?? there still lag after l-cancel, half of it. Lag is there so that you cant constantly attack. the opponent needs the possibility of counter attacking.

half lag is still a big deal and makes a big difference.
u cant stop debating now!

 

[xylem]

Y do so many ppl complain when things liek this happen? THey give characters landing lag for a reason, not just to be canclled by pressing a button. Deal with it

***** you'd best be trolling. if you're dead serious, Of course you wouldn't like L cancel; your character choice speaks volumes about your bias. L-cancel makes your precious sheik have to work to get grabs off. and you don't think you need it because your ******** F-air auto cancels at some absurd frames. I hope they nerf the fair's autocancel so you'll get to taste that delicious irony.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

half lag is still a big deal and makes a big difference.

He didn't say it wasn't a big deal...

He was simply sating that lag was needed.

 

[Teeb147]

***** you'd best be trolling. if you're dead serious, Of course you wouldn't like L cancel; your character choice speaks volumes about your bias. L-cancel makes your precious sheik have to work to get grabs off. and you don't think you need it because your ******** F-air auto cancels at some absurd frames. I hope they nerf the fair's autocancel so you'll get to taste that delicious irony.

What's the reasoning behind putting lag... if you can cancel it? That's what I'd like to understand , really.

Anyway. Im off to bed.

 

[Zant3tsuken]

I see what teeb is trying to say and the argument is rather circular as you're coming from different points of view.

I'm not a competitive smasher, but I do play a range of fighting games all with their own AT. The problem that teeb is getting at I believe is that l-cancel is a silly mechanic on it's own... it's not like learning other mechanics such as wave dashing or crouch canceling or whatever. Once you learn it, you do it each and every single time. Learning it doesn't increase your options, it's basically essential to learning the game. Once you know it, it's just another button to press which is why I think Teeb believes it's inconsequential. If it happened automatically then the result is the same, sans a single button.

There are ways to fix the problem with the shield grab situation, perhaps you can dodge as landing so the grab misses. But then you need a way for grounded person to who guesses thats what they will do to have an option to punish it. It's just a suggestion, and I admit that it's very third strike minded but it's something. I don't know exactly how Brawl is shaping up beyond what Gimpy has said but I at least have hope that somewhere in the play testing phase, someone would've noticed the campy gameplay of shield grab due to lack of l-cancel.

Someone said earlier though, about the lack of sweet spotting for edge guarding, reducing quality of gameplay and I agree with that. If they wanted you to be able to grab edge in mid moves and still made it easier, they simply should've allowed the edge to be grabbed with a button press... ie
1) Link is up B, but doesn't want to sweet spot, hits opponent with last strike of spin and grabs ledge on way down
2) Link presses A during up B spin while next to the ledge to cancel it to ledge grab.
Perhaps that makes ledges too strong, I'm not sure, but I think it's better than auto sweet spotting.

 

[Silhouette]

He didn't say it wasn't a big deal...

He was simply sating that lag was needed.

u misinterpreted my statement, i was trying to point out that they made l-canceling difficult for a reason.

 

[Teeb147]

I see what teeb is trying to say and the argument is rather circular as you're coming from different points of view.

I'm not a competitive smasher, but I do play a range of fighting games all with their own AT. The problem that teeb is getting at I believe is that l-cancel is a silly mechanic on it's own... it's not like learning other mechanics such as wave dashing or crouch canceling or whatever. Once you learn it, you do it each and every single time. Learning it doesn't increase your options, it's basically essential to learning the game. Once you know it, it's just another button to press which is why I think Teeb believes it's inconsequential. If it happened automatically then the result is the same, sans a single button.

Hehe, exactly. Though there's a few other things they disagree on, that's basically my point.

 

[Blatherskite]

What's the reasoning behind putting lag... if you can cancel it? That's what I'd like to understand , really.

Anyway. Im off to bed.

Well, it's pretty simple. People who aren't good get punished, while people who are, don't. It's called competition.

 

[Sliq]

Sweet, finally. Something To agree with.

I agree 100% with that statement.

There's alot more to it though, but to me, that very thing seems so logical that it would be weird if it wasnt balanced like you're saying in the final version of the game.. sooo, really It's more about having faith in the developpers..
You guys say you can tell from what you've seen, and I disagree. I'll agree to it lacking once we've confirmed it.

I wasnt just trying to make that point, I was just annoyed by all the negativity...
Have faith people.


Debating is fun :D

Faith is ********, because it makes morons out of normally smart people.

There is a difference between being optimistic and thinking, "Well, with these changes, we'll find a way to make it competitive with new stuff." But you most certainly can't look at the evidence that is presented and think, "These guys know exactly what the competitives want."

Basically, don't think you know where we are coming from, because you don't frequently attend tournaments and play people across the US. However, we can easily see where casuals come from because we all played casually at some point.

When I was a casual, I never thought of WD'ing as being useful. I now know that my past self is an idiot.

All we can do is to try and explain it the best we can, and without demonstrating it one by one to every casual, there is no way to explain it, because we think on two different levels, so hypotheticals are uselss.

As it stands now, Melee has a good balance between aerial and ground based attacks. If you mistime and aerial and hit the stop of the shield as you land, you'll get shield grabbed. However, if timed correctly, you should be able to avoid the shield grab.

There are so many scenarios and options that it would take me forever to go through a majority of them. Just take it from someone who has a deep understanding of Melee's engine, that l-canceled aerials balance out shield grabbing, shield grabbing balances out ground attacks, and ground attacks balance out aerials. The mechanics are balances as they are now.

They only imbalance is the characteristics of the characters.

Brawl needs to strike a balance otherwise one will be lopsided, and it'll be the only one used, and it will be repetitive and boring, which is what we fear. Not change: the fact the Brawl's gameplay will be boring (on a competitive level).

 

[Zek]

The thing is, they should balance it for the casuals WITH AT's. The competitives will play the unbalanced version. My point from the beginning.

I don't see character balance as a huge issue for them for the nubs conisdering: ****ing crazy stages with kooky gimmicks and items.

Balance is then pointless.

So you don't care at all if the game is balanced? You're fine with a handful of top tier characters and bucketload of bottom/low? If so then there's no point discussing it with you.

We know more about what we are talking about than you. I know this because we know way more than you do about Melee. We know as much as we do from those with this knowledge who played it firsthand. They knew what to look for, what is and is not significant, and what is and is not broken.

Neither of us knows anything of what we're talking about. Get off your high horse please. This is Brawl, not Melee. Someone who has actually played at E4All has a little bit of leverage but not much. It's absolutely ridiculous to make claims about whether or not Brawl is balanced based on a day or two of demo play, especially when we have no idea what balance changes have been made since then. How long did it take before Melee's tiers were established?

 

[Silhouette]

So you don't care at all if the game is balanced? You're fine with a handful of top tier characters and bucketload of bottom/low? If so then there's no point discussing it with you.


Neither of us knows anything of what we're talking about. Get off your high horse please. This is Brawl, not Melee. Someone who has actually played at E4All has a little bit of leverage but not much. It's absolutely ridiculous to make claims about whether or not Brawl is balanced based on a day or two of demo play, especially when we have no idea what balance changes have been made since then. How long did it take before Melee's tiers were established?

..........

Kill yourself.

 

[Teeb147]

Faith is ********, because it makes morons out of normally smart people.

There is a difference between being optimistic and thinking, "Well, with these changes, we'll find a way to make it competitive with new stuff." But you most certainly can't look at the evidence that is presented and think, "These guys know exactly what the competitives want."

Basically, don't think you know where we are coming from, because you don't frequently attend tournaments and play people across the US. However, we can easily see where casuals come from because we all played casually at some point.

When I was a casual, I never thought of WD'ing as being useful. I now know that my past self is an idiot.

All we can do is to try and explain it the best we can, and without demonstrating it one by one to every casual, there is no way to explain it, because we think on two different levels, so hypotheticals are uselss.

As it stands now, Melee has a good balance between aerial and ground based attacks. If you mistime and aerial and hit the stop of the shield as you land, you'll get shield grabbed. However, if timed correctly, you should be able to avoid the shield grab.

There are so many scenarios and options that it would take me forever to go through a majority of them. Just take it from someone who has a deep understanding of Melee's engine, that l-canceled aerials balance out shield grabbing, shield grabbing balances out ground attacks, and ground attacks balance out aerials. The mechanics are balances as they are now.

They only imbalance is the characteristics of the characters.

Brawl needs to strike a balance otherwise one will be lopsided, and it'll be the only one used, and it will be repetitive and boring, which is what we fear. Not change: the fact the Brawl's gameplay will be boring (on a competitive level).

hey you're pretty logical all of a sudden ..

I like these types of arguments better.

In my case, when I see wave dashin, I find it freakin cool that you can add that type of mobility.. but at the same time I feel that it doesn't really belong in there and would rather have it taken out BUT maybe replaced with something that could bring the level of depth close to the same if it seems more appropriate to what the game is about.

Im not totally casual, I'm just not obssessed with depth. Im in the middle between competitives and casuals.

It's impossible to make everyone happy, but I think they're trying to please both crowds.. it's just that they have to take into account what the game is really about, and make a good mix between what casuals like and wha competitives like. I like both, and that's why I can see that they're trying make a balance, but you're right, they arent doing what exactly competivites want...

Make sense?

Anyway,/.. I realllyy have to go to bed now. :/

 

[Zek]

Your first statement is just wishful thinking, so I'm not even going to treat it like an actual argument.

As for your second, it doesn't take a plethora of information to figure out that the game isn't going to be balanced. The very fact that all of the characters have radically different moves is all you need to know that it won't be balanced. And this statement is the very heart of every "Tiers are going to be in Brawl" argument out there. If you want to read more about it, then go look up one of the 20 topics about it on Gamefaqs. And when the hell did I say that I knew more about balance than the devs? Oh that's right! NEVER.

And your entire post is mindless pessimism with no solid facts or even reasonable assumptions to back it up.

When did I ever say there wouldn't be tiers in Brawl? There's no such thing as perfect balance. That doesn't mean that Brawl will be less balanced than Melee is, which would be quite an accomplishment. Besides, your argument is absurd: basically what you're saying is that Brawl is going to be unbalanced simply by nature of the fact that it is different from Melee. News flash: Melee was highly unbalanced. A quick glance at the tier list is proof of that. Changes needed to be made. As for the actual outcome of those changes, no one can say for sure, but I would argue that the tweaks they've made have the potential to make Brawl a much more balanced game than Melee. I understand that competitive players don't approve of the less technical gameplay, but that is a completely separate issue from balance. It's nothing more than personal preference. My whole argument is that making sacrifices in the technical aspect of the game allows for balance to be improved.

You claimed to know that the game is hopelessly unbalanced. The devs obviously don't think so. Thus, you claim that you are right and the devs are wrong. Ridiculous.

 

[Sliq]

So you don't care at all if the game is balanced? You're fine with a handful of top tier characters and bucketload of bottom/low? If so then there's no point discussing it with you.


Neither of us knows anything of what we're talking about. Get off your high horse please. This is Brawl, not Melee. Someone who has actually played at E4All has a little bit of leverage but not much. It's absolutely ridiculous to make claims about whether or not Brawl is balanced based on a day or two of demo play, especially when we have no idea what balance changes have been made since then. How long did it take before Melee's tiers were established?

Look, the tier list will fluctuate just as it did for Melee. Sheik was ****, and still is, but now Fox is the best. New strats will come along etc.

I get where you are coming from, but I find it unlikely that AT's will break the noob tier list so severely that only 3 or so characters are usable for tournament play. To think that would be ridiculous.

The only thing we can do right now is: 1.) Speculate about Brawl with what we currently know about Melee and Brawl 2.) Sit around with our thumbs in our ***** and wait for it to be released. I'm doing 1, and you seem to want me to do 2.

I know Brawl is a new ****ing game. But it's not like now it is a cooking simulator. The basic gameplay aspect is still there, so our knowledge of Melee is still somewhat applicable to Brawl.

I choose to be more pessimistic about my views with the current direction, which is my prerogative. What I don't get is why you care that I think Brawl will suck. I care because I don't want it to suck, and you shouldn't want it to suck too. Judging from WHAT WE KNOW NOW (which is the only data we can use, because I am not ****ing psychic), I feel that Brawl is going in the wrong direction, and I have backed up all my claims with various points.

If you want to think that the Smash developers ride to work on unicorns, drink sunshine, and defecate happiness, that is your prerogative, but don't come in here telling my hypothesis is wrong just because I'm a downer.

hey you're pretty logical all of a sudden ..

I like these types of arguments better.

In my case, when I see wave dashin, I find it freakin cool that you can add that type of mobility.. but at the same time I feel that it doesn't really belong in there and would rather have it taken out BUT maybe replaced with something that could bring the level of depth close to the same if it seems more appropriate to what the game is about.

Im not totally casual, I'm just not obssessed with depth. Im in the middle between competitives and casuals.

It's impossible to make everyone happy, but I think they're trying to please both crowds.. it's just that they have to take into account what the game is really about, and make a good mix between what casuals like and wha competitives like. I like both, and that's why I can see that they're trying make a balance, but you're right, they arent doing what exactly competivites want...

Make sense?

Anyway,/.. I realllyy have to go to bed now. :/

Casuals will like Brawl regardless of AT's. Casuals only care about AT's when someone good ***** them.

 

[DRaGZ]

Man, whatever happened to notions of Internet etiquette?

 

[Zek]

..........

Thanks for your contribution. Leave the arguing to the big boys please.

 

[Teeb147]

People dont like downers,.

 

[xylem]

What's the reasoning behind putting lag... if you can cancel it? That's what I'd like to understand , really.

Anyway. Im off to bed.

why is not important, what's important is arbitrary skill caps are just as dumb, if not moreso, than arbitrary skill barriers. Sakurai is a crazy person; he pisses off casuals by continuously pushing back the release dates for no reason, and he pisses off the pro's by giving smarmy noobs a soapbox and taking out all the speed and pressure. I honestly think he is an elite troll and is loving every bit of drama he's spawning. You know that Dylan guy warned me about him...

so who else here is finally going to solve their rubicks cube now that the next gen of smash is screwed? At least when Nintendo screws up they do it big; cutting sony's prototype for the famicom, the CDi, refusing to switch from cartridges to cd, minidiscs, the Virtual Boy, and now this. maybe when "super smash brothers: Fracas" comes out 5-6 years from now they'll put the skill back in. I'd probably be to busy to care then though, sigh...

 

[Silhouette]

Thanks for your contribution. Leave the arguing to the big boys please.

 

[Teeb147]

Casuals will like Brawl regardless of AT's. Casuals only care about AT's when someone good ***** them.

Partly true. Casuals suck when they think something is cheap when it's just an AT. I dont like that. BUT, you're forgetting people like me again. I brawl and dont like the concept of certain ATs, therefore It makes it annoying to compete with people who use that to their advantage (and that they should but if it's not in, they will still use whatever they can and Ill be happy )

 

[Teeb147]

so who else here is finally going to solve their rubicks cube now that the next gen of smash is screwed?

Like I said before, I dont mind speculation, but it's dumb **** like this that ticks me off.

 

[Sliq]

Man, whatever happened to notions of Internet etiquette?

As far as I am concerned, there is no etiquette on the internet. I know this because there is porn of chicks doing horses. How I know this is irrelevant, but if you'll allow horse porn, you'll most certainly allow me to be a meanie bo beanie.

why is not important, what's important is arbitrary skill caps are just as dumb, if not moreso, than arbitrary skill barriers. Sakurai is a crazy person; he pisses off casuals by continuously pushing back the release dates for no reason, and he pisses off the pro's by giving smarmy noobs a soapbox and taking out all the speed and pressure. I honestly think he is an elite troll and is loving every bit of drama he's spawning. You know that Dylan guy warned me about him...

so who else here is finally going to solve their rubicks cube now that the next gen of smash is screwed? At least when Nintendo screws up they do it big; cutting sony's prototype for the famicom, the CDi, refusing to switch from cartridges to cd, minidiscs, the Virtual Boy, and now this. maybe when "super smash brothers: Fracas" comes out 5-6 years from now they'll put the skill back in. I'd probably be to busy to care then though, sigh...

You are mah heero.

People dont like downers,.

And I don't like spiders, but I don't yell at spiders for being the way they are.

You are also mah heero.

 

[Teeb147]

And I don't like spiders, but I don't yell at spiders for being the way they are.

You dont squish them?

 

[Sliq]

You dont squish them?

No, that would be a dick move.

Partly true. Casuals suck when they think something is cheap when it's just an AT. I dont like that. BUT, you're forgetting people like me again. I brawl and dont like the concept of certain ATs, therefore It makes it annoying to compete with people who use that to their advantage (and that they should but if it's not in, they will still use whatever they can and Ill be happy )

"You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time." Abe Mothafuggin Lincoln.

There are two camps: casuals and competitives. You either play casuals or competitves. That's just how it goes. You either use everything to your advantage or you follow an honor code and only do certain things, and then complain when you lose.

I'm sorry, but you mah boi are a black sheep.

Edit: My post arbitrarily altered itself on its own omitting some of mah ****.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Yeah, because that is the best possible way to prove you're one of the big boys. Calling people gay. Why don't you start cursing more, and better yet, go say you have inside info on Brawl?

That's the best way to be taken seriously.

(sarcasm alert for the ********)

 

[Blatherskite]

And your entire post is mindless pessimism with no solid facts or even reasonable assumptions to back it up.

When did I ever say there wouldn't be tiers in Brawl? There's no such thing as perfect balance. That doesn't mean that Brawl will be less balanced than Melee is, which would be quite an accomplishment. Besides, your argument is absurd: basically what you're saying is that Brawl is going to be unbalanced simply by nature of the fact that it is different from Melee. News flash: Melee was highly unbalanced. A quick glance at the tier list is proof of that. Changes needed to be made. As for the actual outcome of those changes, no one can say for sure, but I would argue that the tweaks they've made have the potential to make Brawl a much more balanced game than Melee. I understand that competitive players don't approve of the less technical gameplay, but that is a completely separate issue from balance. It's nothing more than personal preference. My whole argument is that making sacrifices in the technical aspect of the game allows for balance to be improved.

You claimed to know that the game is hopelessly unbalanced. The devs obviously don't think so. Thus, you claim that you are right and the devs are wrong. Ridiculous.

Wow, such amazing ignorance it isn't even funny. I don't even know why you bother to reply. First of all, all I said was that there is nothing balanced about Brawl. There is far more supporting evidence for this claim then there is for the opposite. You also completely misinterpreted my argument. You're so far off base it isn't even funny. I said Brawl will be unblanced in light of the fact that there is too much variation between all of the characters' movesets. The game isn't going to be hopelessly unbalanced, but I wouldn't expect anything that's more than a stone's throw away from Melee. And what are these claims all all based off of, that's right videos and reports of the gameplay, actual evidence. And what evidence do you have of the contrary? Oh that's right. NONE.

And you don't have a freaking clue what the developers think. So who's making the assumptions now?

 

[Silhouette]

so who else here is finally going to solve their rubicks cube now that the next gen of smash is screwed?

-irrelevant- i can solve one in about a minute.

 

[Teeb147]

No, that would be a dick move.

I squish em.



On my final note Id like to give an example of something I was trying to say.

In smash you can roll. that's a technique. It's a very well thought out technique that makes sense on a game designing sense, and is useful.

L-Cancel is a technique. Not well thought out and doesnt make sense.... but it's useful.

Competitve players only think about usefulness, while I on a more logical and artistical side (perhaps because Im a critic when it comes to game mechanics) and a game design side, think of all of it. I want all those elements to be in. that's why I don't like L-Canceling and why I am happy it's out.

There's ALOT of people like me. So, I believe they've done the right thing.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

brawl is going to be competitive and its going to be fun

settle down everyone lol

the non l cancelled air attacks dont have very much lag on them, its pretty close to an l cancel from what i remember

but sheild grabbing, and grabbing in general with every character seems to activate quicker

but seriously, the game is going to be competitive and good.

 

[Blatherskite]

You know, I didn't really want to get into this, but I'm bored so I might as well. L-cancelling in Melee wasn't an arbitrary skill barrier. This game is based on button pressing. Ok? It's all button pressing. Obviously, the ones who can do that very well succeed. So, to require someone to time a button press is by no means arbitrary. You don't hear people complaining about timed button pressing in Guitar Hero do you? Well l-cancelling is a little like that. You get a cue (the cue obviously being your character nearing the ground), and you press a button. It's a video game, you press buttons.

 

[Teeb147]

brawl is going to be competitive and its going to be fun

settle down everyone lol

the non l cancelled air attacks dont have very much lag on them, its pretty close to an l cancel from what i remember

but sheild grabbing, and grabbing in general with every character seems to activate quicker

but seriously, the game is going to be competitive and good.

The Gimp Meister has spoken!!
HA! There you go guys. Now chill.

 

[Sliq]

brawl is going to be competitive and its going to be fun

settle down everyone lol

the non l cancelled air attacks dont have very much lag on them, its pretty close to an l cancel from what i remember

but sheild grabbing, and grabbing in general with every character seems to activate quicker

but seriously, the game is going to be competitive and good.

Gimpyfish rides in on his magical Dragon friend sipping Rainbow drops and saves the day.

The Gimp God has spoken!!
HA! There you go guys. Now chill.

Get off his **** you ***got.

 

[Silhouette]

Yeah, because that is the best possible way to prove you're one of the big boys. Calling people gay. Why don't you start cursing more, and better yet, go say you have inside info on Brawl?

That's the best way to be taken seriously.

(sarcasm alert for the ********)

exactly, i should get up in peoples faces and make fun of them for making a good point and/or speaking their minds. thats how ill prove im bada**

 

[Teeb147]

Gimpyfish rides in on his magical Dragon friend sipping Rainbow drops and saves the day.



Get off his **** you ***got.

So I discuss about the subject at hand and just because Some one else proves you wrong you take it out on me? Pretty weird. I wasnt rubbing it in your face. I just happy that his statements are like my opinions which Ive been discussing about.

 

[Sliq]

exactly, i should get up in peoples faces and make fun of them for making a good point and/or speaking their minds. thats how ill prove im bada**

I will beat everyone in this thread up because I dislike your ideas and or the way you present them.

So I discuss about the subject at hand and just because Some one else proves you wrong you take it out on me? Pretty weird. I wasnt rubbing it in your face. I just happy that his statements agreed with my opinions which Ive been discussing about.

No, the fact that you called him the "Gimp God," and the fact that you seem to think his presence represents the finality of all good ideas in the thread leads me to believe you want to touch his eruption button in an Applebees' restroom like the classy guy you are, clinging to someone "popular" so you can be popular too.

Note: Gimpyfish probably hates you.

 

[Silhouette]

brawl is going to be competitive and its going to be fun

settle down everyone lol

the non l cancelled air attacks dont have very much lag on them, its pretty close to an l cancel from what i remember

but sheild grabbing, and grabbing in general with every character seems to activate quicker

but seriously, the game is going to be competitive and good.

we still dont know how much theyll change between the demo to the real thing.

 

[Zek]

Look, the tier list will fluctuate just as it did for Melee. Sheik was ****, and still is, but now Fox is the best. New strats will come along etc.

I get where you are coming from, but I find it unlikely that AT's will break the noob tier list so severely that only 3 or so characters are usable for tournament play. To think that would be ridiculous.

The only thing we can do right now is: 1.) Speculate about Brawl with what we currently know about Melee and Brawl 2.) Sit around with our thumbs in our ***** and wait for it to be released. I'm doing 1, and you seem to want me to do 2.

I know Brawl is a new ****ing game. But it's not like now it is a cooking simulator. The basic gameplay aspect is still there, so our knowledge of Melee is still somewhat applicable to Brawl.

I choose to be more pessimistic about my views with the current direction, which is my prerogative. What I don't get is why you care that I think Brawl will suck. I care because I don't want it to suck, and you shouldn't want it to suck too. Judging from WHAT WE KNOW NOW (which is the only data we can use, because I am not ****ing psychic), I feel that Brawl is going in the wrong direction, and I have backed up all my claims with various points.

If you want to think that the Smash developers ride to work on unicorns, drink sunshine, and defecate happiness, that is your prerogative, but don't come in here telling my hypothesis is wrong just because I'm a downer.

I'm here to speculate about Brawl the same as you. And I think some of the speculations that other people are making are ridiculous. It's reasonable to express skepticism about the changes they've made, but what gets under my skin is when people refuse to acknowledge the possible benefits and/or make claims with absolute certainty that they can't possibly support. In your case you were saying that the loss of L-cancelling is nothing but bad news for competitive players, and I argued that it would improve character balance, which is a huge benefit to anyone that doesn't want to main Fox, Marth or Sheik. Just ask Gimpy. Smash is all about the characters and I think balance should be priority #1. I understand you guys are annoyed that Brawl is deviating from your personal preference towards lightning reflexes and highly technical gameplay, but there are other factors at play here.

 

[Blatherskite]

What really sucks though is that I liked the l-cancel mechanic they implemented in Brawl. It would have made it a little less shffl intensive without completely gimping heavy lag attacks.